"A Critical History of Islam" - 09-Nov-2005

[Skybird]

download links:

CHAPTER 1 - FORWORD
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_1_Forword.doc
(12000+ words, 13 pages, 145 KB, 09-Nov-2005)

CHAPTER 2
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/HistoryOfIslam_2_IslamQuranHadith.doc
18000+ words, 19 pages, 305 KB, 09-Nov-2005)


Text is formatted as Word-document, DinA4, print-ready

[Skybird]

Hi,


I think I’ll easily brake a board record with this... :lol: If you think I shouldn’t have done it, put the blame on Fish, please. :-j


(...) Maybe I just write a summarizing essay and post it here the next days.

Looking forward. :yep:


Summarizing essay, eh...? :lol:


Due to the potential controversy that may be started by this (or not :) ) I found it the proper thing to do to give a warning time in advance.

I am about to release (at the end of this week, probably) the first two parts of a long work of writing I have been busy with for quite some time now. It is a very critical text dealing with the historical development of Islam and originally was planned to show how it compares to the tradition of the West, the way Islam‘s appearance today was influenced by that history, and what consequences that has for relations between the West and Islam in the present. History is key for me to understand why Islam is like it is, reading the Quran or the Hadiths do not offer any explanations, since they only represent Islam’s dogma, but are not about analytical examination of it – dogmas do not question themselves. It also does not necessarily tells you all about the motives of another person reading the Quran. That’s why I started this „historian’s approach“.

It is a work under construction. So far I have finished a chapter dealing with the early history of Islam’s founding (emerging of Islam, forming of the Quran and selecting the canon of Hadith). A very comprehensive preface, that usually would better be given at the end of a book, for it is about summary, subjective conclusion and discussion, also is ready and will be given in advance, for I do not know when the whole work will be finished. This foreword is the place of my work where I allow myself the luxury to give my own, personal opinion and subjective perception of Islam in not too diplomatic tone and style, it also includes a good ammount of what I already have posted in various threads on the matter in the past (Islam, EU-Turkey, Middle East). . Since the verbal problems I faced were bigger than I expected and made writing really time-consuming and difficult, I am not sure anymore if I will really follow my original plan and write additional chapters – after all it’s English and that always will hinder me immensely.

Due to the length of the text (final result will have several dozen DinA4 pages, I assume), it’s chapters will be available as downloadable Word-documents that I link to on the very top of this thread, and that will be constantly updated whenever I eventually have finished an additional chapter. Reading a printed copy is easier, I assume. Completed updates will be made known by a message on the board. The next update – IF there will be one - will be a chapter about the later medieval. Not talking of days, but weeks here ;) , really, I also have other things to do currently . ;)

My mentioning and reflections of things and details and events is not complete, I know that. I focus on selected aspects of Islam’s history, and in what I have written so far I LOOK AT IT‘S EARLY HISTORY - WITH A PERSPECTIVE FIRMLY FIXED ON WESTERN INTERESTS IN INTERACTION WITH ISLAM TODAY. That’s why Muslims certainly will not like my thoughts – too big discrepancies coming from too different perspectives on the same thing. My selection of what I include and what not is my decision. I do not claim to have written the complete Historical Encyclopedia of Islam. I had to make some cuts, and had to bypass many details, for reasons of economy. If I‘ll just manage to tie up all those scaring many loose ends once I reach the end of writing, and meanwhile will have been able to point out all those details that are important in my opinion, then I will be satisfied and book this project as a success.

-> This work is only for the few, I assume, due to it’s length it will be only of interest for those with a really deep and lasting interest in the matter, because reading it all will take hours, and the vast majority at this board feels not like that.

I WILL NOT ENGAGE IN POSSIBLE DISCUSSIONS, MY CONTRIBUTION TO SUCH DISCUSSIONS IS THIS TEXT ITSELF, AND EXCLUSIVELY. INCOMING FIRE I WILL TAKE IN SILENCE FOR THIS REASONS. It already took me more than enough time. But of course I will monitor what is going on. But again: I do not plan to get engaged in. I will only show up if I agree on a complaint that I made a serious mistake in the information I gave, and want to inform you that I corrected it. Where I am not sure, I will check with my library. Decision will be made by me on the basis of my understanding of it, and the books that I use. So my scale of judgement can differ from yours. If you demand corrections of something and I do not comment, you can assume that I have red your remark but rejected to comply – for then I was not convinced and preferred to stick with what I have written. I would ecourage anyone who feels the moral obligation to present a counter-position to mine, not to mess up this thread by yelling, but to start writing his own sharp and critical thread/essay/presentation as an antithesis to mine. Faithful Muslims in special certainly and necessarily will take note of my thoughts with very mixed and maybe even heavily angered feelings. I’m sorry, but I cannot help that – not without reason I named it „a CRITICAL history of Islam“. „Highly critical“ would have been even more to the truth. This whole thing potentially could be dangerous (flamatory). I am aware of that risk and see myself in a position where I must accept a major part of the responsebility for what is happening, additionally I ask the moderators to have a closer eye on it than usual and to call everyone to order immediately who shows first signs of loosing control of his temper ;) – „währet den Anfängen!“ . Religion, wether it be the experience or the history, can only be talked about in cold blood, emotions are not welcomed. Despite the controversy I am about to raise over Islam, I do not call any individual person by name and mean no personal foul. Answer me this favour in the same way, please, with regard to me and others as well, no matter whom you adress in your possible replies.

But if someone says he feels personally offended in his Muslim or different faith (or historical understandings, or viewson tolerance and coexistence) because of my opinion and I should be more tolerant towards his, I hereby tell him in advance that his right to demand tolerance for his belief and views end where his belief demands me to hold back my own belief or opinion in order to prevent his from beeing offended – your freedom ends where you start to limit mine (and vice versa, of course). You are free to say when you differ with me, you are free to give your own view of the story. My opinion on Islam is sharp, to some level it has an aggressive character, I do not hide that I do not like it and say why, and thus, I fight with an „open visor“; I am seeking arguments to gain back the initiative for the Western civilization, and since I put it all straight and not too diplomatic, this writing bravely presents a clear silhouette for targetting counter-attacks at my opinion by anyone not agreeing with me, yes - and Muslims certainly will not like my opinion on Islam, will think of it as misinformed and distorted, and will not share many of my views and call them a heresy, I’m sure. There may be Westerns whose illusions on how far tolerance may go lead them to disliking me, too. Okay with me, I’m in expectation of counterfire, but I must not answer to everything. But I will stick to my conclusions on Islam for reasons that I sum up in this work, for by that I am able to found them by reason and analysis, logic and argument, research data from academical writings and results of historian’s works, I will not accept to replace that kind of approach (that represents the strengths of Western intellectual culture) with simply „believing“ something, with religiously motivated hear-say or with a flawed understanding of one-way-only „acceptance“ and „tolerance“ towards Islam, and I do not care that my conclusions are considered to be politically incorrect from a Western perspective as well and are uncomfortable for Western societies, and some may even say they are inflammatory, racist or simply wrong. But they are the result of a lot of reading, and experience at location, and comparing both, and many years in general; I give my sources and my reasons, and where needed I explain why I think and perceive things this or that way, and not differently. I talk >ABOUT< an ideological concept and it’s historical origins here. I neither do talk >TO< any person, nor is the intensity of a person’s believing in Islamic faith (or religion in general) my interest – I simply do not focus on that. It’s not my theme. Except in the forword, where I allow myself to give some of my subjective, personal views on it in open, undiplomatic words, I treat Islam as an ACTOR IN WORLD HISTORY , I concentrate on what it did and what it caused as a whole, and not so much on what it claims to be and what it wants to be from a theological perspective. The life of individual Muslim people living in Western places is of no interest for me as well. Individual, community, and culture are three different levels of looking at things. . I am aware that all people are very different, but since I concentrate on the historical roots of Islam I refuse to make this thing more complicated than it already is – by taking regard and consideration towards every single Muslim community or person there is in the neighborhood, and it’s/his maybe typical characteristics, every single variation and differing detail in interpreting Islam. This kind of concept of proclaiming a cultural diversity sometimes is abused as an excuse to deflect any critizism in general – by always pointing at some exceptions in the object of critizism so that this critizism does not appear as justified that way. I don’t allow this tactic to disturb me for the purpose of doing this text. Some generalization is needed in order to come to an end with a work like this, my generalization comes subsummarized under the life of Muhammad, the example he put by himself and historical developements in Islam in following centuries after his death, during the fixing of Islam’s scriptures.

I do not claim to be the great super-expert on Islam, but I consider myself to be well-informed. I think Islam cannot be understood in it’s form and structure by reading it’s scriptures and doing it’s rites, just reading the Quran can even be confusing for the unprepared „newcomer“, for it is a completely new and alien culture that led to the forming of the Quran – the knowledge of the historical contexts from which it’s unique and sometimes contradictory form emerged maybe is more essential in the case of Islam than with any other major lines of world religions there are. The Quran represents the dogma only, and dogmas tend to reject any need to examine them and to explain their actual appearance – it’s considered to be heretical . To understand the basic essentials of Buddhism, for example, no knowledge of scriptures and history is needed at all, is even a burden, buddhism in it’s most essential forms like Zen or Ch‘an does not know theological dogmas or the concept of „holiness“ but focus on a radically empirical approach to world’s phenomenons and their relation to mind; and the same concept of „knowledge by practical experience“ can be said about for example what Christian mystics are trying to point to. In fact, too much intellectual knowledge, too much theology, can be hindering. With Islam I found it more than just helpful to know it’s history in order to get an understanding of it’s shape and form – knowing it‘s history is a must, and a first.

My reasons and motives are, that I have a growing feeling of urgency, that Western societies need to wake up and realize that they simply cannot afford to uncritically embrace an Islam, of which generally they have only limited or no knowledge, but plenty of their own wishfully twisted perception, enriched with tourist‘s cliches, lacking a complete recognition of all it’s aspects - which might be the reason for the still positive attitude towards multi-cultural societies in the West (currently, whil writing this, Paris is burning for the 9th night in a row, now it is organized crime to plunder, and 11 year old children competing in a countrywide championship of who can burn the most cars in the shortest time; in the beginning it was social unrest coming from foreign immigrants beeing croweded together without having social perspectives – many of them Muslim Northafricans: France has massive integration problems since years and decades). There are many illusions people in the West do have on what tolerance is and how far it is allowed to lead, and Islam and cultural compatability and coexistence - and many of these are extremely dangerous. Whenever I ask someone what he knows on the history of Islam, and what Islam is about, most often I see shrugging shoulders, and a bubble over a head: „Who cares?“ Ignorrance can be lethal. How could people form an educated opinion on Islam if they have not learned any knowledge about it, or accepted Muslim self-definiton as their only source of information? Why taking such opinions serious? Why seeing more in them than just babbling?

Please take note everybody that nowhere in this work I use the word „terror“, or refered to recent year’s terror attacks. Muslim terror I see as one of the minor risks of a spreading Islam only, there are more urgent concerns I have. It will keep on causing deaths, and it will target the media’S attention for effects of shock and manipulation opinions, but traffic causes multiple times as much killings per year, and still we do accept it and do not change it. Our societies will live with terrorism - and „easily“ so as long as no A or B-weapons come into play. The lesser hysteria we make of it, the more helpless terrorists will be. The more fuss we make of it, the greater their triumph will be for the moment. Even the biggest terror blasts should only mentioned with three of four sentence in smallprint in the newspaper, for thatv reason. Also helps us to avoid the useless „actionism“ we have seen in the last years and maybe plan a real professional counterstrategy to kill it. This shall not be allowed to be done by politicians.

I consider this work to be politically most uncorrect, as it should be, from my perspective – if it were not like this, I would conclude that I have done it wrong. :) You must not like my opinions and perceptions. But I have years of reasons why they are like they are, I got there by learning, reading, thinking of it, and impressions from interacting with Islam and Muslims, in Germany, and in Muslim countries. I will not let go my reasons only for beeing considered a polite guy. I did not write all this to make myself new friends, but to ring a bell - painful yelling from Westerners that I adress in the first with this work thus is a compliment for me. Muslim reactions are not really interesting for me – Muslims are not the ones that I adress with all this (but feel free to share your opinions).



Cheers,
Skybird

[Skybird]

place reserved by author

[Kapitan]

:dead: dear god

[Happy Times]

Sounds great :up: Good that someone has time and brains to put this together. :yep:

[TteFAboB]

I have good expectations from this, but I can't believe your apocaliptical aura hasn't managed to sneak in at any point, there must be something obscure somewhere in there, but even if there isn't I certainly appreciate all honest, "politically uncorrect", views on Islam.

We don't have that problem *yet*, however since we trail Europe on many fields, who knows what might happen in the decades to come, better be prepared than sorry and that's the only reason why I waste my precious time following the developments of Islam in Europe.

Bring it on. :hulk:

[Skybird]

Chapter 1 (Foreword) and 2 are available. If you want the history stuff alone, go to chapter 2. If you want my quarrel with Islam moving into the modern West plus some already known stuff I have written in former topics in the past months, go for the Foreword as well.

Due to the immense language problems I faced this thing was more time-consuming than I expected, and tiresome. I also re-red a lot of stuff, to refresh my rusty RAM-bars and make my arguments solid. Currently I tend to not writing any more chapters, I am also somewhat limited in time for the next weeks coming.

If you want to share your views, please remember and respect the cautions for not letting it become flamatory. Clearness and leaving no doubt of your opinions is okay (I did that myself, right), getting loud is not.

I again remind you that I do not plan to engage in discussion, and will only comment on corrections that I eventually made.

;) Skybird

[Iceman]

I'll download it now...:)

[The Avon Lady]

Skybird, why work so hard when someone else has already done it for you?

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260131/qid=1131596021/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-7387621-5009751?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Robert Spencer

It was on the NY Times' Book Review's best seller list for the first 9 or 10 weeks after publication this past summer. :yep:

Same book @ Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895260131/qid=1131596349/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-8198785-1919021)

The book is nowhere to be found on Amazon Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/301128/%3Fsite-redirect%3Dde/302-6102311-3172029). Must be too politically incorrect. :smug:

[Iceman]

Made it thru the Foreward tonight...very intresting pov's.I'll read the rest over the next few weeks and that book you mention looks very intresting too Avon...thk you both.Very eye opening stuff and EXactly why "I" ask about it..many Americans I know for a fact are obvlious to the true nature of these beliefs.I was in the group as well thinking the Muslim faith "CAN'T" be involved or condone acts of violence...but as in news this evening alot of people in Jordan have paid with there lives in cowardly acts and I will no longer keep my head in the sand about this religion or it's intentions.I'm gonna buy that book.

Thk you.

[Abraham]

I'm gonnna follow your project. I'm an avid reader anyway with an interest for the subject. It certainly sound like worth to read.

As far as your opinion about Ismanic terror is concerned, I do not agree. I would advise you to read 'Understanding Terror Networks' by Marc Sageman M.D. Ph.D. about the role of terror within Islam. You'll find it interesting...

[Sixpack]

Skybird, real sorry, I really had no time to read your work yet...

[Skybird]

I'm gonnna follow your project. I'm an avid reader anyway with an interest for the subject. It certainly sound like worth to read.

As far as your opinion about Ismanic terror is concerned, I do not agree. I would advise you to read 'Understanding Terror Networks' by Marc Sageman M.D. Ph.D. about the role of terror within Islam. You'll find it interesting...

Cannot remember to have adressed "Islamic terror" anywhere. Not every terrorist is a fundamentalist, and not every fundamentalist is a terrorist.

[Abraham]

I'm gonnna follow your project. I'm an avid reader anyway with an interest for the subject. It certainly sound like worth to read.

As far as your opinion about Ismanic terror is concerned, I do not agree. I would advise you to read 'Understanding Terror Networks' by Marc Sageman M.D. Ph.D. about the role of terror within Islam. You'll find it interesting...

Cannot remember to have adressed "Islamic terror" anywhere.This opinion of yours is what I was referring to: Please take note everybody that nowhere in this work I use the word „terror“, or refered to recent year’s terror attacks. Muslim terror I see as one of the minor risks of a spreading Islam only, there are more urgent concerns I have.I do not - fully - agree with that, as you no doubt remember.
:D Not every terrorist is a fundamentalist, and not every fundamentalist is a terrorist.That I fully agree with... at least the second part fully...
:D

[Sixpack]

Muslim terror I see as one of the minor risks of a spreading Islam only, there are more urgent concerns I have.

Very wise words, Skybird ! :up:

[Hitman]

Skybird, why work so hard when someone else has already done it for you?


That is exactly the reason why people throw themselves in the arms of any religion. Why take the effort of thinking about God, the universe, the reason of our existance, and all the things that surround us, when someone has already thought them for us?

And the next step is to see yourself happily giving away money to a telepreacher, crusading to holy land, burning apparent witches, or even pressing the trigger to blow your body along with hundreds of innocents, just because the very same person who already thought a reply to the big questions for you, has already a plan for what you must do with your life. :damn:

The main difference between us and the animals is our ability to THINK, to use our mind and take our own decissions....why should we not use it?

I must express my respect and admiration for Skybird on this, he might be wrong or right, but he followed his own way, a harder way, and did not simply take as granted what others say :up:

[The Avon Lady]

Skybird, why work so hard when someone else has already done it for you?


That is exactly the reason why people throw themselves in the arms of any religion. Why take the effort of thinking about God, the universe, the reason of our existance, and all the things that surround us, when someone has already thought them for us?
Ummmm, pardon me?

Books don't make you think? :hmm:
And the next step is to see yourself happily giving away money to a telepreacher, crusading to holy land, burning apparent witches, or even pressing the trigger to blow your body along with hundreds of innocents, just because the very same person who already thought a reply to the big questions for you, has already a plan for what you must do with your life. :damn:
Are we on a magical mystery tour here or what? :doh:
The main difference between us and the animals is our ability to THINK, to use our mind and take our own decissions....why should we not use it?
I never said otherwise.

Do you always take words in such a raw literal form? Talk about thinking out of the box! :yep:
I must express my respect and admiration for Skybird on this, he might be wrong or right, but he followed his own way, a harder way, and did not simply take as granted what others say :up:
Again, who's arguing? :-?

[Hitman]

Ummmm, pardon me?

Books don't make you think?


Books give you elements to construct your own thoughts and opinions if you read them critically. But if you use them as a substitute for your own construction of a logical thinking, then they are just a way of indoctrination. Same as the nazis did with "Mein Kampf"...or some radical muslims do with the Quran ;)

Don't take the comment above as a personal attack, I just wanted to highlight the value I recognize in Skybird going his own critical way, and the danger existing in taking anything thought by another for granted (Including the pretended holy books of all religions) :up:

[Abraham]

Ummmm, pardon me?

Books don't make you think?


Books give you elements to construct your own thoughts and opinions if you read them critically. But if you use them as a substitute for your own construction of a logical thinking, then they are just a way of indoctrination. Same as the nazis did with "Mein Kampf"...or some radical muslims do with the Quran ;)

Don't take the comment above as a personal attack, I just wanted to highlight the value I recognize in Skybird going his own critical way, and the danger existing in taking anything thought by another for granted (Including the pretended holy books of all religions) :up:
A good analyzis of the use of books for the critical mind, Hitman! It goes for links too...

[Fish]

But again, I dare to say no other culture in human history – as we know it today - was so highly developed and in possession of so phantastic possebilities like the modern West. Not always we used these potentials wisely, all our acchievements also threw their shadows, and we already have started to let down plenty of our treasures in philosophical and ethical values and traditions. Our cultural climax lies behind us, not ahead of us. We could need something like a second rennaissance.

Your sure Skybird?
With all what made it happen, churches selling free pass to the hereafter, colonies, serf villains and extreem poverty?

[Sixpack]

Ummmm, pardon me?

Books don't make you think?


Books give you elements to construct your own thoughts and opinions if you read them critically. But if you use them as a substitute for your own construction of a logical thinking, then they are just a way of indoctrination. Same as the nazis did with "Mein Kampf"...or some radical muslims do with the Quran ;)

Don't take the comment above as a personal attack, I just wanted to highlight the value I recognize in Skybird going his own critical way, and the danger existing in taking anything thought by another for granted (Including the pretended holy books of all religions) :up:

@ Hitman: Excellent post once again, and a most refreshing display of self-conscious vision from a responsible person(ality) ! :up:

@ Skybird, my word of advice: Dont waste time in this place. Go public with your analysis ! Politically in your hometown for starters, or find a German (not Austrian / :rotfl: ) politican to do the dirty work for you. And that's dealing with extreme liberals, ignorants, cowards, hypocrites and the 2-tonged serpents among us. Or write a book and reach millions.

[Abraham]

[@ Skybird, my word of advice: Dont waste time in this place. Go public with your analysis ! Politically in your hometown for starters, or find a German (not Austrian / :rotfl: ) politican to do the dirty work for you. And that's dealing with extreme liberals, ignorants, cowards, hypocrites and the 2-tonged serpents among us. Or write a book and reach millions.I second that.
Try to publish your analyzis one way or another. I'd buy it for sure...

[Skybird]

Sixpack, Abraham,

In my late schoolyears, say age 16 or so, I was eager to "do" something, so I joined the youth organisation of the Socialdemocrats. I left quickly in maximum disgust. In my last school semester I was with the conservative's youth organization, for they made good parties. the experiment lasted for not much longer than three months. I hate politicians and I am sure evolution already has put them on the list of to-be-deleted species. My spiritual and martial arts teacher at that time shook his head from the very beginning :lol:

I must not publish that kind of stuff, for it already has been published by brave persons. The one guy I quoted repeatedly, Peter Raddatz, currently is body-guarded by the German BKA and lives in the hidden, for it has been called for his murder by Muslims who did not like his views finding an audience. Most what I wrote is just arranged and summarized by me, but the original argument I cannot claim any credit for. I declare them "my" arguments in so far only that I did not blindly copy someone else's thoughts, but came to the same conclusions by my own thoughts and travel experiences. I do not read a book and then simply copy the author's opinion - doing so would be dump. I am not hesitent, however, to use his voice, when I have seen that I HAVE come to that same conclusion.

It's just that many people do not read such things, it is not popular. So I thought a summary of the basics might be helpful for those who never thought about the very basis. History of Islam in the following centuries after where i stopped is twisted and marked by cilvil wars and fights for power, splitting of the community and appearance of new factions and traditions, but all this is more about politics, in the end, not so much does it add any important changes to the basic dogma from the beginning. I tend to think that following chapters are not really needed, for that reason, to understand the principles of Islam's attitude towards the West. I think the important stuff I already have outlined.

I currently read various material about empires, the rules they form up by, the inherent action logic of their situation, and how and why they brake apart, and the future of warfare which very much reminds me of a fallback to the wars we have seen before the national states in Europe emerged (and thus that future is no so much something new, but a return of the past). I red about this in past years, to, but not as systematical as currently, and I re-read a lot of my old books again, focussing on Herfried Münkler (brilliant guy), and van Crefeld (another smart one). All this with one eye on the US, of course, but a historian's eye, not a politcal critic's eye. I also bought myself a PC-installed and much bigger electronic dictionary :) Who knows. Maybe another "summarizing essay" will emerge from all this in the future :lol:

Somehow both themes, "Islam", and "the future of wars and empires", are shaping our not so far away fate on this globe.

[joea]

But again, I dare to say no other culture in human history – as we know it today - was so highly developed and in possession of so phantastic possebilities like the modern West. Not always we used these potentials wisely, all our acchievements also threw their shadows, and we already have started to let down plenty of our treasures in philosophical and ethical values and traditions. Our cultural climax lies behind us, not ahead of us. We could need something like a second rennaissance.

Your sure Skybird?
With all what made it happen, churches selling free pass to the hereafter, colonies, serf villains and extreem poverty?

Doesn't have to be exactly the same as the first.

[Abraham]

@ Skybird:
It's just that I hate PDA files and find it hard to somehow keep the copies together.
Gimme a book anytime...
:know:

[Sixpack]

I must not publish that kind of stuff, for it already has been published by brave persons. The one guy I quoted repeatedly, Peter Raddatz, currently is body-guarded by the German BKA and lives in the hidden, for it has been called for his murder by Muslims who did not like his views finding an audience.

You could consider publishing under your nick 'Skybird'. You know we can keep a secret here ! :lol:

You could at least send it anonimously to a newpaper, a magazine, whatever. Just dont let it go to waste. More voices make a better choir.

And Abraham: Buy a stapler, for God's sake ! :roll: