XM8 Rifle formally cancelled?

[Torpedo Fodder]

OICW-1 Canceled, Door Closes on XM-8 For Now
Posted 02-Nov-2005 01:52

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1). Increment 1 would have opened the door for the new H&K XM-8 weapon family, which was touted as the successor to the M16A4 assault rifle, M249 SAW light machine gun, and even the M9 pistol via a cut-down version. See DID's full coverage and links.

Now Murdoc Online reports that OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled while the Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA may also wish to take into account Israeli lessons learned under related conditions during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which resulted in the new TAR-21 Tavor assault weapon family.
I'm really not surprised by this, and I expected this to happen eventually after the "temporary" termination of development back in July for a re-evaluation of the requirments matrix.

[Abraham]

OICW-1 Canceled, Door Closes on XM-8 For Now
Posted 02-Nov-2005 01:52

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1). Increment 1 would have opened the door for the new H&K XM-8 weapon family, which was touted as the successor to the M16A4 assault rifle, M249 SAW light machine gun, and even the M9 pistol via a cut-down version. See DID's full coverage and links.

Now Murdoc Online reports that OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled while the Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA may also wish to take into account Israeli lessons learned under related conditions during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which resulted in the new TAR-21 Tavor assault weapon family.
I'm really not surprised by this, and I expected this to happen eventually after the "temporary" termination of development back in July for a re-evaluation of the requirments matrix.
Can you elaborate? I would like to read why you are not surprised and what the Israeli experience was.

[Torpedo Fodder]

Can you elaborate? I would like to read why you are not surprised and what the Israeli experience was.

I wasn't surprised to hear a cancellation after the army anounced a "temporary" suspenion in development back in July to "re-evaluate" the requirmrnts for an M16 replacement. Usually when something like that happens it doesn't bode wwell for the weapon system involved.

The Army's citing "lessons learned" may just be a polite way of killing the weapon because it simply doesn't work. There are some rumors (so take them with as many grains of salt as you like) that when soldiers of the 82nd Airborne field tested them in Afghanistan, they worked as advertised for about a week, then began falling apart and required constant maintenece to keep working. Perhaps the US Army tried to make the weapon too light to still being durable enough for the abuse of field conditions. Think about it: the basic XM8 carbine was derived from the G36K, but is 1.5lbs lighter when empty. Since the G36K already has a lightweight plastic reciever, the XM8's weight reductions would likely had to have come from somewhere else, like say, the action itself?

I think the most ideal and cost-effective solution would be instead of an all-new rifle, an upgrade to the M16 family. A good contender would be H&K's HK416 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as75-e.htm), whos most important distinction from the current M16 is that it replaces the direct-gas drive of the M16 (the source of most of it's reliability problems) with a piston. This improvemnt can be done by factory-modifying existing rifles, and since the controls are all the same, and it field strips the same way, conversion training costs would be almost negligable.

[TLAM Strike]

I think the most ideal and cost-effective solution would be instead of an all-new rifle, an upgrade to the M16 family. A good contender would be H&K's HK416 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as75-e.htm), whos most important distinction from the current M16 is that it replaces the direct-gas drive of the M16 (the source of most of it's reliability problems) with a piston. This improvemnt can be done by factory-modifying existing rifles, and since the controls are all the same, and it field strips the same way, conversion training costs would be almost negligable. "Newer- Lighter- Crapyer" I think that’s the military's new motto. :roll: They got to fund all the manufactures which entails having them design and build new weapons. Look at some nations that don't have such a massive industrial base to build their own weapons; they upgrade their old stuff to modern standards. Like Israel and the F-4 Phantom, a great weapon made even better.

[Abraham]

@ Torpedo Fodder:
Thank you very much for your info and the link.

[nikimcbee]

I think the most ideal and cost-effective solution would be instead of an all-new rifle, an upgrade to the M16 family. A good contender would be H&K's HK416 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as75-e.htm), whos most important distinction from the current M16 is that it replaces the direct-gas drive of the M16 (the source of most of it's reliability problems) with a piston. This improvemnt can be done by factory-modifying existing rifles, and since the controls are all the same, and it field strips the same way, conversion training costs would be almost negligable. "Newer- Lighter- Crapyer" I think that’s the military's new motto. :roll: They got to fund all the manufactures which entails having them design and build new weapons. Look at some nations that don't have such a massive industrial base to build their own weapons; they upgrade their old stuff to modern standards. Like Israel and the F-4 Phantom, a great weapon made even better.


I guess the AK-47 keeps going...and going...and going...Kalashnikov must be quite proud. :rock:

[Bort]

I've fired the M-16 a number of times, and all I can say is that the troops need a new rifle and fast. The M-16 is an aging piece of junk in my opinion, it's too heavy, two finicky, and needs way too much cleaning and maintenance. Why are we trying to fight a 2000's war with a 1960's weapon? We can do better. Lets pick a new weapon, and soon. Why not just buy G36's for an interim replacement and save our R&D bucks for the OCIW.

[Happy Times]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/FDF/aad.sized.jpg The Finnish M95 assault rifle (in the picture) or the Israeli Galil are the best allround rifles in the world. IMO :up: They are based on the AK series but but go a step forward from them. Definetly reliable, ive used the m95 a year and didnt have any problems with it. Found other Finnish military pictures were i found this picture, il put the link if someones interested http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/FDF

[TLAM Strike]

The Finnish M95 assault rifle (in the picture) or the Israeli Galil are the best allround rifles in the world. IMO :up: But they still have the same flaw as the AK, you can't fire them accurately while laying prone. :nope:

[Happy Times]

The Finnish M95 assault rifle (in the picture) or the Israeli Galil are the best allround rifles in the world. IMO :up: But they still have the same flaw as the AK, you can't fire them accurately while laying prone. :nope: Were did you get this from? We have a conscript system and people have to be learned to shoot accurately in a short time. I would say the M95 is really easy to master well, we usually shoot prone. In a joint excercise in Norway Marines were interested of them after loosing in a competition ;)

[Torpedo Fodder]

The M-16 is an aging piece of junk in my opinion, it's too heavy

Yet there are no assault rifles of the same barrel length on the market that are appreciably lighter.

two finicky, and needs way too much cleaning and maintenance.

Problems that vanish if you replace the weapon's direct-gas system with a nice piston to prevent carbon-laden gasses from being spewed back into the action. This is the HK416's distingusihing improvment over the basic M16, and as I stated before such an improvement would be preferable to an all-new rifle.

We can do better. Lets pick a new weapon, and soon. Why not just buy G36's for an interim replacement and save our R&D bucks for the OCIW.

The G36 is actually heavier than the M16 thanks to it's built-in optics. Even the "export" version that removes the main scope is still roughly the same weight as the M16.

As for the OICW, it was a terrible idea: much too heavy at 15lbs loaded (I've heard it describe as being "as heavy as a GPMG but only 1/10 as useful"). It was too bulky, complicated, and expensive to serve as an individual weapon, and it's 20mm grenades really wern't lethal enough. The soldiers who tested it didn't call it the OINK for nothing. It was a bad idea that deserved to die.

[TLAM Strike]

The Finnish M95 assault rifle (in the picture) or the Israeli Galil are the best allround rifles in the world. IMO :up: But they still have the same flaw as the AK, you can't fire them accurately while laying prone. :nope: Were did you get this from? We have a conscript system and people have to be learned to shoot accurately in a short time. I would say the M95 is really easy to master well, we usually shoot prone. In a joint excercise in Norway Marines were interested of them after loosing in a competition ;) I got it from some stuff written by Ex-SAS guys and by examining the design of each weapon. Lay prone with an AK style rifle and a M-16 or M-4 and you will see a large difference in how high up the gun its self is from the ground and by default how high you’re head is. With a M-16 the magazine is almost the same length as the grip, while on an AK style it’s twice the length.

[bradclark1]

* Bort]I've fired the M-16 a number of times, and all I can say is that the troops need a new rifle and fast. The M-16 is an aging piece of junk in my opinion, it's too heavy, two finicky, and needs way too much cleaning and maintenance. Why are we trying to fight a 2000's war with a 1960's weapon? We can do better. Lets pick a new weapon, and soon. Why not just buy G36's for an interim replacement and save our R&D bucks for the OCIW.

I don't know which M-16 you fired. Must of been the first version from Vietnam.

[Bort]

Well, the M-16's I've fired were M16A2's (Some, due to their markings, were remanufactured A1's) from the Illinois ARNG. Admittedly, these weapons probably weren't the pick of the litter but regardless, I found the design to be outdated and whille not the worst weapon ever, sorely in need of replacement. I also had a similarly unimpressive experience with the Baretta M9, but that's a story for another thread... :roll:

[Abraham]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/FDF/aad.sized.jpg The Finnish M95 assault rifle (in the picture) or the Israeli Galil are the best allround rifles in the world. IMO :up: They are based on the AK series but but go a step forward from them. Definetly reliable, ive used the m95 a year and didnt have any problems with it. Found other Finnish military pictures were i found this picture, il put the link if someones interested http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/FDF
I've owned a Galil for a couple of years and I was not too impressed by its accuracy. Could have been my shooting though... :D
More importantly, Zahal (Israeli Army) is preferring the AR 15/M16 rifles above the Galil for it's elite units...
I don't know about the M95 though.

[XabbaRus]

Want a SA80A2?

[Abraham]

Want a SA80A2?No.
I'd prefer a KH 416 as my next rifle... any H&K gun, actually!

[OneShot]

Personally I have only shot the G36(A1) and I have to say its a nice weapon, pretty accurate if maintained properly (and sometimes even if maintained improperly). Since I havent fired any other Rifles of the same caliber I cant directly compare them. But from my point of view I would take the G36 any day to a fight.