Gameplay or Realism? Which do you prefer?

[Excalibur Bane]

Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning on mods that enhance gameplay, not realism? I know the handful of us that actually view this as a game are few in number, but it sure would be a welcome addition.

I've applied lots of custom changes but there is a limit to what I can do unfortunately, I have a problem with numbers so my ability to mod is severely limited. Otherwise I'd make my own FuB (Fun U-Boat) mod.

Wrap up all of Fubar's nice sub skins, toss in that shell damage texture, a few other things. Hmm. That sort of thing. Stuff that isn't necessarily realistic but would be fun, nonetheless. "What if" scenarios I guess. I've always found it to be more engaging to play an alternate timeline then simply relive existing events. For example, what if the XXI along with the rest of the advanced U-boats had been more of a priority and did in fact come in to service at a point in the war when they would have made a difference? Would England have fallen? Or would the suprerior numbers of the combined forces of the Allies achieved victory anyway?

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[P_Funk]

I'm not sure if SH3 permits that kind of radical change to the game design; at least not without making some very laborious changes. You could easily make the XXI available earlier on in the campaign. I imagine you could make it totally different but you'd need a team of people working for a long time (almost like a development team working for a major company.... :hmm: )

[Trav_R]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.

[Marhkimov]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.
Agreed.

[jason210]

I prefer realism too, that's why I've started using RUb. SHIII is very good, and with RUb can seem quite realistic.

But any future sub-sim would require a more powerful 3D-engine in order to seem "realistic". Active crew, and 1st person camera walkthrough movement are things that I personally miss, and would like to see in the next generation of sims. Also, I would like to see functional, controllable sub-systems. We should be able to operate valves and hydroplanes, engines, rudders and a range of similar items manually if we wish to. Not on 2D panels, but proper 3D equipment. Then there's the opening and closing of hatches and torpedo tubes.

One should be able to choose betweenn crew management ofl equiopment and controls, and 1st person management. There could be a range of crew management templates to use.

Finally, let's not forget physics. Anyone who's seen Half-Life 2 will know what I mean.

Open ended architecture software design should be used, to allow the easy addition of developers' models and "panels", as we have seen happen with great success in MSFS for the last ten years.

[Myszkin]

Realism, Realism, Realism!!! :yep:

Why? Because in REAL simulations realism=gameplay. Have you ever seen cool unrealistic simulation? :damn:

[gdogghenrikson]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.

Good call

[Detritus]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.

Good call

Ditto. I prefer realism by making some things harder but also vice versa, using mods and such to cut down some unrealistic features. Different strokes for different folks and that's the way it should be, too.

[wetwarev7]

I prefer mostly realism, but every now and then(if I've been having a bad day) I like to do something like decrease the loading times for the deck gun to .5 sec or so, and just have at it!!! I've a special save game in a not-well defended convoy just for this.... :up:

[lumat83]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.

Agree too

[oRGy]

I prefer realism that is interesting and teaches me something. Realism that is laborious and wastes my time I do not like.

For example, the endlos waiting around in real life as you watch your sub icon crawl along the screen is 'realistic' in the sense that indeed this is what it was like for sub crews, i.e. mostly long patrols of boredom.

However, Das Boot depicts this same process but in a more interesting way - you are engrossed in the atmosphere, the character development, and so forth, whereas in SH3 you are simply bored.

If I was designing SH3, that whole sequence would be cut and you'd either be managing/interacting with your crew actively (think black and white 2 rather than current SH3), looking around your boat etc, reading something interesting, or you'd be skipped to the next important event - which could be either a destroyer 200m off the port bow, an engine failure, a crew problem, etc... None of this waiting around pointlessly anyway.

[CCIP]

Wha?

For me,

Realism == Gameplay

...where, mind you,
Realism =/= Reality

I think people misunderstand the latter point often, and end up with some sort of strange perception that realism is supposed to mean boredom and stress. It's not. But for me, the game has absolutely no value as an arcade shooter; it has to reflect certain situations with the highest degree of accuracy possible. I cringe at the idea of playing a WWII simulator where all I get to do is run around in a Type XXI for the whole war, shooting up cruisers with my flak guns. To me, that's not even close to being "fun" - it's stupid.

:roll:

[CWorth]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.

Agreed..I like realism but to much realism kills the fun of the game.

I use the RUB mod w/SH3Commander....just modified to un-real it a little bit.

[Hartmann]

I like a good balance simulation vs game.

Too much realism could kill the fun :yep:

[K-61]

For me, realism in a game is enjoyable to the point where I have to behave in a logical manner and in accordance with historical precedent. For example, I should have to manage my fuel so that I do not run out mid-patrol and can then just magically sidestep my poor management by hitting the escape key.

When realism becomes tedious then it takes away from the enjoyment of the game. In the game's original crew fatigue model I as commander of the boat have to micromanage my crew and put them to bed like the mother of a three year old. Since I am the captain on a boat full of adults, I would like such things to run automatically in the background. The only time I should be concerned is when the general morale and fatigue of the crew becomes operationally relevant. If I have been at sea for two months, then as the commander it should then be a factor in my decision making. Since the crew is getting worn down I may decide it is time to return to base.

I appreciate that some players would like the option of managing subsystems in the boat. I don't mind, as long as that sort of thing is optional. As the commander of the boat, it is not my duty to manipulate valves and dive planes. It takes the combined efforts of many crew members to operate the boat, I just have to give the appropriate orders.

If the balance can be achieved whereby I perform akin to historical commanders, then I think that the game succeeds. If I get my clock cleaned by trying to engage a destroyer in a gunnery duel, then I think that is realistic. Anything else is an arcade game.

[supersloth]

for me realism=good gameplay

[Trav_R]

So far it sounds like pretty much everyone prefers realism to a fairly high degree, with the only difference being where we draw the line. If the question were instead "where do you guys draw your line" then this question would probably lead to a debate and a bunch of name calling. Good thing there's no need for that, as SHIII + all the mods we have allows for all of us to find our happy middle ground, or our happy balls to the wall realism ground.

I'm in agreement with the idea of being able to manually operate a lot of the machinery on board if I feel like it at the time. That kind of option would benefit realism lovers and those who prefer not to have to deal with it. If you're not at the dive planes, then the crewman that you have assigned to the dive planes will operate them. If you're not opening the valves to flood the tanks, then someone else will do it. Of course I'd hate to have to constantly be jacking with the valves, but it'd sure be cool to be able to do it if I feel like it now and then.

Any of you guys played B-17 Flying Fortress? That's the way it is, there are 10 crewman on board your bomber, and you can "be" any one of them, or none of them. If you're not manually controlling any of them, then the plane flies itself, defends itself against fighters, and drops bombs on its own. You can of course jump to any of these positions at any time. Bombing is especially fun with the mostly realistic Norden bombsight, which was designed for the game by a real WWII bombardier. That kind of ability would have been great in this game, but hell you can only ask for so much of the devs, and I'm not complaining this sim rocks the way it is.

Okay, don't want to turn this into a B-17 thread but I thought it was pretty relevant to the discussion.

[Cdre Gibs]

Gameplay every time, had enough "Realism" in RL to last me a life time. A game is ment to entertain. If I wanted to be bored out of my brain I'd resign back up.

The bigger the bang the better ! :D

[Excalibur Bane]

Gameplay every time, had enough "Realism" in RL to last me a life time. A game is ment to entertain. If I wanted to be bored out of my brain I'd resign back up.

The bigger the bang the better ! :D

You and me both, I think we're in the minority of two. :-?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I prefer mostly realism, but not to the point where the game isn't fun anymore.
Agreed.

DITTO!!!

[Sailor Steve]

As a rule I don't generally 'play games'. I like certain aspects of history, and I like certain machinery. Shooters don't appeal to me at all. From a U-boat sim I prefer maximum realism, but, that said, only up to a point. I don't play in 'Real Time' except during the attack-and-defend phases. I like the mods that make contacts more realistic, and, using TC, I don't mind if my crew doesn't see an enemy ship for weeks on end (though you wouldn't know it from my logs-I have my captains complain a lot).

I'm also nutty enough that I don't reload my external torps unless I have dead calm seas and come to a complete stop first.

Realism for me...as much as a game can be realistic.

[Highbury]

Also, I would like to see functional, controllable sub-systems. We should be able to operate valves and hydroplanes, engines, rudders and a range of similar items manually if we wish to. Not on 2D panels, but proper 3D equipment. Then there's the opening and closing of hatches and torpedo tubes.

One should be able to choose betweenn crew management ofl equiopment and controls, and 1st person management. There could be a range of crew management templates to use.

As the commander of the boat, it is not my duty to manipulate valves and dive planes. It takes the combined efforts of many crew members to operate the boat, I just have to give the appropriate orders.

K-61 answered that perfectly for me. Obviously some of you disagree. For me I like realism as it helps the immersion into the preiod we are trying to recreate. If I have to manage systems that a boat's commander would not have had to, it ruins my immersion. For me it is about playing my 'role' within the game.

Now that said, if a simulator came out where you could 'role-play' as just a member of the crew, not the commander. Working your way up learning new jobs and resposibilties.. that may be interesting.

[TteFAboB]

I like the idea about operating valves and other stuff on the U-Boat.

There are some highly advanced payware Aircraft for Flight Simulator that have TONS of features and let you switch and interact with virtually every button and switch you can find on the cockpit, that's not what the pilot do, actually during a take-off on a 747 the real pilot would have the co-pilot ready to reverse the engines in case the take-off is aborted, in the simulator you have to reverse it yourself, there is no co-pilot! You have to raise the gear, you have to set the radios, everything is up to you, you are the pilot AND the co-pilot and that's FUN, of course, however, it would be best to have an "AI" Co-Pilot available for reality fidelity, since it's impossible to come up with a good faithfull INTELLIGENT Co-pilot, they leave you alone in the cockpit, a cockpit where everything really works and can be interacted with.

In SHIII it's the contrary, these submarines are far more complex and difficult to operate than a 747 and you need more than 2 crewmembers to get it working, however, it would be very cool if you could right-click the dive-plane operator and get into his shoes at his station and control the dive-planes yourself for the fun of it, or anything else, granted you'd need AI to operate the stations you're not on, which we already have, so unlike FS we're missing the option to manually operate the sub instead of missing proper AI to assist you, it would be an interesting addition for a full immersion SIM, like that Space Shuttle Sim that also lets you operate every single button and function, even though without proper AI assistance, we're either missing one or the other, is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

[Marhkimov]

is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

B-17 The Mighty Eighth.

That game was not without it's flaws, but it did allow you to play as various crew members while the AI took 100% control of the other stations. Gunners, bombardier, radioman, and pilot... It was a highly memorable experience.

OT, but B-17 The Mighty Eighth had the MOST exciting rendition of flak, EVER!! IMHO even better than the CFS and IL2 series'. I was inspired to buy new speakers for my computer, and a SUBWOOFER! Let's just say that flying a B-17 through flak became a hair-raising experience.

[Trav_R]

What he said. That flak in that game is just unbelievable. It's hard to focus on the bomb run when you really just want to watch and hear the flak. Also watching your bombs rip your target apart, followed 10 seconds later by the deafening rumble from below. Oh man, what an awesome game.

[FesterShinetop]

in the simulator you have to reverse it yourself, there is no co-pilot!

is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

Actually there are some (payware) addons for FS2004 that do have a co-pilot!

But I agree with most here, I do like realism, but as long as it is still fun. Also the difference between realism and reality, as CCIP pointed out allready is very important. I play a game to get out of reality for a moment but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be realistic.
For me I also crank up the realism while playing and getting more comfortable with the game but I doubt I will ever play at 100% or do a patrol without TC, that would be too much like reality! ;)

[kiwi_2005]

Well i just play the damn game! Mods, realism, i mean if ya wanna feel like your doing the real thing then do what that german guy did and built him a uboat... forgot the name of him found his website from a thread here once. He and one or two others built a cut down size VIIC or XXI. And it works!

But to answer the question: I have tried alot of mods and am using SH3 commander at the moment. I prefer to play SH3 without rub, just have the stock game with SH3CDR for my reports and realism up high.

Not all the time i will play campaign in manual.

[TteFAboB]

is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

B-17 The Mighty Eighth.

I completely forgot about that beauty, this is totally off-topic, but thanks for reminding me, sub-woofer on, time to give that jewel another run.

[Beery]

When realism becomes tedious then it takes away from the enjoyment of the game. In the game's original crew fatigue model I as commander of the boat have to micromanage my crew and put them to bed like the mother of a three year old.

But that's not realism that you're complaining about. No real U-boat commander had to play mother hen with his crew.

There's nothing 'boring' about realism. I'm not sure why some players think there is. Sure, there's a lot of boring things in 'reality', but reality and realism are completely different things. When a simulation game is made, the boring bits are cut out from the very beginning, so when you add realism you're only adding realism to the bits that are already fun, thus making the experience even more fun because it seems more real.

I just don't understand where this idea that 'realism = boring' comes from. In my view, arcade style play is boring because it's not challenging on anything but the most basic reflex level. Realism usually adds to the challenge and inserts some strategy and thought into the process, not to mention the 'cool' factor of knowing that what you're experiencing in a realistic simulation is something closer to what real U-boat commanders experienced.

[von Buelow]

Cdr Gibs, you should have said "only with my mega cheats" like your 1000 mph torpedos :stare: and whatever else you have loaded up

[ironkross]

for me realism=good gameplay
For me realism=cold and wet. http://www.cromag.com/vb3/images/smilies/cold.gif
:rotfl:

[Sulikate]

I prefer a mix of both, with a bit more of realism, but not 100% (I really like to use the external camera for some
nice shots :yep: )