Historical question

[lumat83]

Hi all :)

I've an historical question (sorry for my english, it's not perfect :-? ) :
In the first months of the war, when only somes countries was engaged in the war, in the night or very bad weather conditions, it was very difficult (like in SH3) to identify a flag on a boat.

- The uboat followed the contact until the day to see better and be sure that the boat was an ennemy ?
- they go very very near of the contact to try to be sure about his nationality ( before move away to attack ) ?
- Or they leave the contact ?

What's your opinion ?

[don1reed]

Hello lumat83.

I guess we should take our lesson from KL Fritz-Julius Lemp of the U-30. At 19:40/3.9.39 began the U-Boat war when he sunk the S.S. Athenia. From periscope depth, he presumed (mistook) that the ship was an armed, blacked-out, zigzagging enemy aux cruiser. Flag? Nationality? I'm afraid all he could make out was silhouette.

It wasn't until after his 3rd torpedo...it malfunctioned or missed like #2 did. He got closer and discovered his inexcusable error.

[lumat83]

Yes, I know the terrible storie of the Athenia.

But, I think that They verified the nationality after this storie, because in north sea, It was neutral nationalities and also german merchant somewhere, no ?

In 1939, I say of course.

[Nedlam]

Funny you should ask that. I was wondering the same thing. I'm playing a campaign now from starting in 1939 and I saw nothing but Norwegian vessels. Mostly big one too. I would spend hours (of game time) setting up a shot only to find out it was a neutral ship. I'd pack it up and move on.

The really neat this is to shoot or not to shoot at night. You have to get real close to see the flag. I was near England (I think around AN16) and came upon a C3 cargo. It was around 2am, fog. You know: the works. For the life of me I couldn't tell if it was an English vessel or not. I took the shot (two actually) and sank it. As I got closer I saw it was a Norwegian vessel. Oooops! :)

My superiors forgave me because the vessel was so close to England (heading west) and probably was offering aid to the enemy. That's the only neutral ship I sank that campaign. Heck, tonage comes easy if your shooting at everything in sight. With the Harbor traffic mod I could get a Norwegian vessel everytime I leave Kiel. I bet I'd get a "Keep up the good work!" message too if I sank it right there in the harbor! :roll:

[coronas]

Stop your ship! documents, cargo and destination! contraband of war? Sink the ship! It´s legal. :arrgh!:

[lumat83]

Lol, it's rapid :lol:

but do you think the Uboat controlled all cargos ?. With very bad weather, it seem to be difficult

And in SH3 it's too easy to make a maximum tonage like this :-?

[Wulfmann]

Open your data folder then your CFG folder and edit the neutral to =1. Then any neutral is fine to sink.
I still do not sink a neutral in their home waters but heading for England or in a convoy they are not neutral to me!

(Note! I also changed my grid values so yours will not look like below)

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=300
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=500
CompletedPatrol=200
NEUTRAL=1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10

[lumat83]

Thanks, but I don't want neutral are fine to fink :-?

It's less interresting for me and too easy. I prefer realism and it's for that I've posted my question :)

[Grom]

Hi all :)
- The uboat followed the contact until the day to see better and be sure that the boat was an ennemy ?
Not really. In early years or war, they respected (or some of commanders of uboats) Prize Law. Uboat was alowed to stop the merchant ship which was sailing not in convoy. Then after check the documentation of the ship, commander of the uboat made the decision about fate of target. Mostly they sunk them with charges. But sometimes if situation was that surface uboat could be in danger, they just torpeded ships. This what You are talking about had happened when ships were sailing in convoys, and it was wolfpack tactic. Shadowing uboat have been sending msg. to BdU and other uboats in nearest areas. When they were many enough, then attack was carried out duringt night time. In the night because small uboat was hard to find on the sea during night time. They have attacked convoys in surface position (at least best aces like Otto Kretschmer), because boat can sail faster when is in surface, and because of all of it what i have wrote above.

[lumat83]

Ok, thanks for this precision :)

They tried all the times that was possible to stop merchants of all neutrals nationalities or not identified to control them. Ok

If the contact was indentified as english I presume that the commander made the decision to sink the target all the times without control.

Do you know somes good uboat websites except uboat.net (I know it) ?

[Grom]

Ok, thanks for this precision :)

They tried all the times that was possible to stop merchants of all neutrals nationalities or not identified to control them. Ok

If the contact was indentified as english I presume that the commander made the decision to sink the target all the times without control.

Do you know somes good uboat websites except uboat.net (I know it) ?
Well yes. There are plenty of them:
http://www.ubootwaffe.net - this one is my favorite.

[Wulfmann]

You prefer realism??? But can not hit neutrals in convoys??? Yeah, thats real, LOL
The fix means you can sink them when it is proper but still hold your fire when it is not.

The way it is in the game now is what is not realistic.
So you get punished for sinking 2 Greek frieghters and an American tanker supplying England. I Believe you would have gotten a medal!!!

Wulfmann

[Grom]

You prefer realism??? But can not hit neutrals in convoys??? Yeah, thats real, LOL
The fix means you can sink them when it is proper but still hold your fire when it is not.

The way it is in the game now is what is not realistic.
So you get punished for sinking 2 Greek frieghters and an American tanker supplying England. I Believe you would have gotten a medal!!!
It is the game only my friend. People make misstakes, and programmers are people. I dont play SH III so often, but in games i had, i didnt make a choice betweem merchant ships in convoy. I didnt attack lonely neutral units, may be once. Many of neutral un its were sunk in fact. But there is alway something unrealistic in every simulator. First of all i was really angry about unrealistic units, and that active sonar thing. But now simply i dont have time for gaming SH III, if so the i just try to accept this porduct as it is.

[GAGA Extrem]

I guess we should take our lesson from KL Fritz-Julius Lemp of the U-30.
We can learn even more from U-333


BdU @ all subs: Who has torped trawler in BE78? Report immediately!

BdU @ all subs: German trawler "Spreewald" sending SOS in BE78. Torped at 5PM. Burning and sinking.

U-333 @ BdU: Have sunk clearly hostile identified trawler in BE78 on way "Anton". Zig-zag and course 60 degree. Underwater attack. One hit 1700, ship stopped. Second attack with last torpedo 1800. Ship sunken.

BdU @ U-333: Cremer, you have sunk german trawler "Spreewald".

[edit]
Okay, found out that the Spreewald was dusguised as a british frighter... So that doesnt really fit in here. Anyway, intereseting story, isnt it?

[lumat83]

You prefer realism??? But can not hit neutrals in convoys??? Yeah, thats real, LOL
The fix means you can sink them when it is proper but still hold your fire when it is not.

The way it is in the game now is what is not realistic.
So you get punished for sinking 2 Greek frieghters and an American tanker supplying England. I Believe you would have gotten a medal!!!

Wulfmann

For me some neutrals in convoy are not really neutrals, or at less they're suspicious. I only told about neutrals alones at the begining of the war in the north sea

[Kissaki]

The way it is in the game now is what is not realistic.
So you get punished for sinking 2 Greek frieghters and an American tanker supplying England. I Believe you would have gotten a medal!!!

Wulfmann

In real life, you mean? The uboats were strictly forbidden from attacking neutral ships. Even when British convoys were escorted by neutral US destroyers, and even when these destroyers actively attacked the uboats, the uboat commanders were not allowed to fire upon them.

[TLAM Strike]

During the U-Boat offensive against the US Eastern Seaboard (Drumroll/Durmbeat) U-Boats sunk anything and everything including well-marked Argentine ships among other neutral ships. Their commanders reason, it’s a war zone. ;)

[Kissaki]

During the U-Boat offensive against the US Eastern Seaboard (Drumroll/Durmbeat) U-Boats sunk anything and everything including well-marked Argentine ships among other neutral ships. Their commanders reason, it’s a war zone. ;)

Ah, but that was after the US had been drawn into the war. The Germans didn't really have aything to lose - certainly not diplomatically - once they were fighting both Russia and the US.

[Hudsonhawk]

I agree with Wulfmann.....I was Shadowing an "Outward Bound" Convoy from England. (Year 1940)
It was Escorted by 3 DD's from England. I decide to attack at night submerged. I sink 3 ships........get pounded from the DD's for 2 hours......go home with the pennants on my Scope......Only to get Re-premanded by Donitz...for sinking a Greek Coastal .... :stare: (one of the three i sunk).....it was a British Convoy.....off the tip of Ireland!!!!!!! I didn't have time to stop the ship and ask for papers......
:hulk:

[Dowly]

If it was sailing without lights, it was a target. Hitler´s orders!

And if I remember right, neutral ships under protection of a enemy warship was to be attacked also.

[Wulfmann]

The reference to not attacking neutrals was for the western convoys escorted by US DDs before the US war entry.
Those same ships at mid ocean with British escorts were attacked. By your account the only time you should hold fire is pre-1942 convoys with US escorts.
So, by editing the renown you now get proper credit for what you would have. I still identify lone neutrals away from Englad but ships heading for England with a load of oil are certainly a legitimate target.
You want to be punished for hurting the enemy, go right ahead. No way is perfect but, IMO, this allows for more likely results.
Wulfmann

[JohnnyPotPie]

hmmmm good question... Early in my campaign I kept so close to Britians shore that I could spit on it. So there for anything near or around would be taken for an enemy ship or ship aiding the enemy. Friends of my enemys are my enemy!

[Hudsonhawk]

Hey Wulfmann......
Could you give me an exact location to adjust the neutral again i looked last night and couldn't find it..... :hmm: