THE HOLOCAUST Germany 1933-1945

[kiwi_2005]

The holocaust is the attempted German extermination of the Jews from 1933 to 1945. Which then spread thoughout Europe. The great hatred that spread throughout Germany caused Germans to brutally murder Jews. Old people, children, babies it didn't matter, For example alot of the Waffen SS or Hitlers bodyguards like to have the parents watch while they slam there babies against rocks, or command Jews to push other Jews into fire pits. They got shot anyways if they didn't. Where did this hatred come from and why blame the Jew?
Then the hatred spread to countries like Poland, Romainia and parts of Yugoslavia,to name a few. I am Croatian blood, born in New Zealand and was shocked to read that we Croatians sided with the Nazis and form gangs that went round beating, tortureing Jews and other undesirables to death (desirables would mean, other yugoslavs like Serbs or muslims/christians, Gypsies etc.,). But the Jew were top of the list.
Here we are playing a game about the German Uboat we probably all know the uboat like the back of our hand, Yet did we know what went on while our Uboats were out at sea. Did you know that Donitz was a Hardcore Nazi ?
This is a part of history we should all recognize and not discuss it in secret or "When the times right" But discuss it openly and never forget what happen.

I am reading the book "The Holocaust The Jewish tragedy" by Martin Gilbert, a 900page volume and im only up to page 187 and am completely exhausted! i find myself having to get in the right frame of mind before i go and read it, because it is disturbing. One reader Sums it up: "One reads this book with Bleeding eyes "

Every page gives a straight forward detail on how the Jew was murdered. Nothing is left out .

[elanaiba]

Actually, Doenitz was no hardcore Nazi. At least reading his memoirs made me think so.

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...

[The Avon Lady]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?

[tautug]

The holocaust was a horrifying tragedy hopefully never to be repeated again (although insurgency in Iraq is similar in a lot of respects).

However, reading books about the holocaust should be cautionary, especially if written by someone of the afflicted religion.

Your synopsis while correct in its horror, is quite flawed when one reads about German political history from Treaty of Versailles onward to 1945. There is a lot to it, which is not for this forum and takes years to understand, and explain.

Try reading "Rise and Fall of 3rd Reich". While it doesn't go into horrific detail of atrocities in concentration camps, it does give the military and political and propaganda detail to help explain why things happened the way they did, and how the public was so easily fooled, and will give better undersanding when you read books strictly about the holocaust.

I have found that putting SH3 aside until I read Rise and Fall, and then starting campaigns based on the year I was up to in the book really added to the depth and realism of the missions.

[Gizzmoe]

I´m moving this to "General Topics", the best place for discussions like this.

[Mowgli]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?


Dresden springs to mind.

"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell

[The Avon Lady]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?
Dresden springs to mind.
What about it (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm)?

[elanaiba]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?

Well, as I understood from a discussion with a better informed person, retribution (is this the right word) against civilian population in response to partisans attacks was LAWFUL at the time.

Note, however, that I cannot imagine myself doing such a thing, lawful or not. It's just not moral!

But, I am just a guy reading history in my armchair. I cannot judge people in history accurately, since I have the benefit of hindsight, and don't go through the same as they do. I can imagine refusing an order without getting shot for it, etc.

[The Avon Lady]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?
Well, as I understood from a discussion with a better informed person, retribution (is this the right word) against civilian population in response to partisans attacks was LAWFUL at the time.
What is your statement based on?

[elanaiba]

Which part of "based on a discussion with a better informed person" do you not understand?

[Mowgli]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?
Dresden springs to mind.
What about it (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm)?

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?

Yes. The Nazis were bad but so were the Russians, the Japanese and lots of other countries.

[The Avon Lady]

Also, while of course some of the things the germans did were unpardonable, there are also things that we cannot understand because the world is different today...
Such as? :-?
Dresden springs to mind.
What about it (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm)?

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?

Yes. The Nazis were bad but so were the Russians, the Japanese and lots of other countries.
Your point being?

We started off with someone saying there were things we can understand. You piped in with Dresden. I linked to a report that would make it more understandable for people who don't seem to know the facts.

Now you come off with a list of atrocities created by Germans, Japanese and Russians.

I fail to see the connection. :-?

[The Avon Lady]

Which part of "based on a discussion with a better informed person" do you not understand?
OK. It's just news to me and I'd be interested in a reference to ascertain this.

[elanaiba]

Which part of "based on a discussion with a better informed person" do you not understand?
OK. It's just news to me and I'd be interested in a reference to ascertain this.

Yeah, I know, it's been news to me too, and unfortunately as this discussion was taking place over a beer I don't have more facts to support this.

I'll try to get in touch with the bloke through email and get more hard data. But, as I said, the simple fact that it was lawfull doesn't make it 100% excusable.

[The Avon Lady]

Which part of "based on a discussion with a better informed person" do you not understand?
OK. It's just news to me and I'd be interested in a reference to ascertain this.

Yeah, I know, it's been news to me too, and unfortunately as this discussion was taking place over a beer I don't have more facts to support this.
Maybe the problem is simply one of memory loss? :doh:

http://accordionguy.blogware.com/Photos/2004/08/thank_you_giant_beer_preview.jpg

[Marcus]

May we settle this discussion knowing that there are virtually no nations in the world that haven't got blood on their hands. We as the dutch massacred the indonesians while the brits invented the Konzentrationslager in south africa and palestine. The french had their way in eastern asia while the russians had their way with the camps. The americans invite themselves practically everywhere around the globe and did some shady business during the years that they were "neutral", even during the war.
And so on....... propaganda in every form can lessen the own nations role during a conflict and collective guilt for that matter.

In a war there always is genocide. Though I lost family during the war in the camps I dont see any difference between the abovementioned situations, the only being that the germans were the last and the best organised doing this and kept it on film for reviewing. Or do you think that if there would be footage on the spanish inquisition that it would be less brutal?

I have lots of german friends who dont like what happened as there were lots of germans during THAT time who didnt like what happened

Coming to my point.... if agreed on the above we should stop all sims and computergames because we wouldn't want to support any nation or business for that matter that might have been involved in something not quite right.

Hope this clears things up in the knowledge that we learned something since then.

[elanaiba]

Maybe the problem is simply one of memory loss? :doh:



LOL! Actually it was not that much beer, just the fact that the discussion was informal, and I trusted the guy and didn't jump instantly to question his sources.

I think I did ask him whether he is sure or not, and expressed my surprise...

[oRGy]

The original poster makes an interesting point!

As for the rest, the usual internet warbling about how genocide etc are all unexplainable expressions of "human nature" is tedious and unperceptive.

[StdDev]

I would be interested in what evidence there is that Donitz was a "hardcore nazi". It is apparent that he "toed the party line" in that he followed orders and did not protest too much about some of AH's military/tactical descisions.
As for antisemitism.. AH did not invent this.. though he did take it to extremes. Personally I believe that antisemitism became "popular" ( trying to find the right word here.. I dont mean that antisemitism is correct.. only that it was more commonly practiced/believed in) because of the economic state of Europe (particularly Germany) after WWI. The Jews were a convenient target! not only are they the representatives of a religion, but a race!.. how segregated can you get!? they also seemed to be associated with many of the major banking houses of Europe (wealth), which was idealized as the cure for all that was wrong with life in general.

Anyways.. these are the thoughts of this armchair historian.. but I can assure you that antisemitism did not spring into being in 1936.

[lafeeverted]

Yet another book about the Holocaust where almost every page will leave you shaking your head wondering how this was able/allowed to happen. If you have ever wondered how it was possible for the SS to always know who to take and from where along with many other questions about the sheer scope of the number of people murdered...It becomes sadly clear that many people/countries knew and chose not to get involved because of money.

IBM and the Holocaust by Edwin Black

ISBN 0-609-80899-0


Laurence Rees in his book Auschwitz A New History, details the progression of Anti-semetism in Germany and how it progresses to the final solution. An interesting point made ( I am simplifying this) is that although the Russians and Japanese also followed orders, they did so often out of complete fear of their own lives. While in Germany, they did this because they believed it to be the right thing to do, with little or no remorse even to this day.


The books that try to answer the questions about how things were done and those written by or about the camp commanders and what was going on in their minds open up a whole new level of shock and disgust.

[tycho102]

Honestly, I've read and seen enough about the Holocaust to last me for the rest of my life.

Tell you what, though. I'd like to read about the Nanjing and Nanking massacres. Where the Japenese troops used captured Chinese men for live bayonet practice, along with all the sex slaves and ritualistic rapes. The main problem with this is the Japanese warlords have re-written their history books, so as not to offend their children with such information, so I can't really read about Japan's foreign policies of the 1920-1945 era.

:hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

I'd like to read about the Nanjing and Nanking massacres. Where the Japenese troops used captured Chinese men for live bayonet practice, along with all the sex slaves and ritualistic rapes. The main problem with this is the Japanese warlords have re-written their history books, so as not to offend their children with such information, so I can't really read about Japan's foreign policies of the 1920-1945 era.
The Rape of Nanking (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140277447/qid=1127748472/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4161124-6034416?v=glance&s=books), by Iris Chang. :cry:

[Abraham]

Some people on this thread take the 'easy' way out of the discussion by stating something like "war is terrible" or don't see the difference between war atrocities and the Holocaust.

War is terrible and so was the Holocaust, but we (=humanity) miss the point if we don't go a step further then describing the Holocaust as 'terrible'.
The essence of the Holocaust is not clarified by comparing it with the bombing of Coventry, Dresden or Tokyo, not even with the - terrible - suffering of political or religious prisoners in concentration camps.
The two words that characterise the Holocaust for me as something 'unique' are "Endlösung" ("Final Solution") and "Vernichtungslager" ("Destruction Camp").
The Holocaust had little to do with the Second World War or military operations in general, other than that the war made the Holocaust possible on an almost Continental-wide scale.
It was the culmination of a decades long campaign of Anti-Semitism by Nazi's (and others) in which the German people were slowly seperated from their own Jewish population and indoctrinated on a semi-scientific basis that the human race could be divided in "Übermenschen" ("Superior humans") like the Nordic race and "Untermenschen" ("Inferior humans") like Eastern European 'races', the black race and of course the Jews.
Hatred was sown by 'Darwin-like' theories that the Inferiors, leaded by the Jews, would always try to fight for power with the Superiors.
Nazi propaganda in this field - orchestrated by a dirty old man called Julius Streicher (hanged after the Nürenburg War Trial) in his filthy magazine "Der Stürmer" - entered an obscene and pornographic area were German women and girls were constantly warned with graphic cartoons for the intentionally "poisening" of the 'Arian' race by the dirty Jewish 'blood' (=semen).

After the conquest of Europe made the liquidation and complete destruction of most of European Jewry an viable option, this was taken at hand by the Nazi government as a major project.
From 1941 Eastern-European Jews were shot by "Einsatzkomando's" (Police battalions consisting of 500 man, not necessairely SS) and Ukraine or Baltic support units. Altough during some campaigns thousands of Jews were shot per day the momentum of destruction could not be sustained, partly caused by the emotional problems that the constant slaughtering of innocent people caused for to killers. However, in the mean time experimental ways of mass elimination had been tested and devellopped, mostly on German psychiatric patients and Political Commmissionars of the Red Army.
After thorough studies - and thousands of deads - the final plan consisted of deportation of European Jewry towards getto's and/or concentration camps, equipping selected concentration camps (in Eastern Europe) with a large scale 'elimination-capacity' through building gas chambers and mass crematoria and building special small elimination camps (like Sobibor) near main European railway lines.
While all this took valuable time, this time was certainly not wasted. Life in getto's was intentionally made as miserable as possible and individual hatred and brutality amougst the rank and file of Germans against Jews was positively reflected upon and would certainly not ruïn one's career.
As from 1942, in a logistic operation that is unparalelled, the Nazi's moved hundreds of thousands of Jews from their countries of origin to the death camps, with the highest efficiency. For example', of Dutch Jewry (1940: 140.000) more than 100.000 were caught and apart from a few thousand, succombed. This mass movement was payed for by Jews themselves (from confiscated bank accounts). The mass murder was turned in an extremely efficient industrial proces, in which not just all valuables were confiscated, including extracting golden teeth from corpses, but human hair was recycled (one of it uses being to waterproof U Boot periscopes(!) and at some destruction centers even human fat (from burned corpses) was recycled as well.
The Holocaust had absolute priority over military action. Trains were always made available for the transport of Jews, even if that was to the detriment of supplying military operations.
The elimination was turned as much as possible from a 'blue collar job' into an office job for civil servants. Hatred or cruelty was not required, only a sense of duty.
The plans for destruction of the Jewish race were not limited to the occupied countries, lists of the Jewish population in neutral and allied countries were composed as well.

That was the Holocaust in a nutshell, large scale genocide in a cold, unemotional, XXth century 'high tech', industrial way...

[kholemann]

Wasn't most of the Army and Navy and Air Force of Germany made up of non-political (non-Nazi) party members? It was the people in political power in Germany that were the Nazis. Just because folks were Admirals or Generals didn't mean they were also members in the Nazi Party. Many of them didn't know the full details about the atrocities being commited by the SS (which was the only part of the forces that were made up of Nazis as I understand it).

[I-25]

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?


not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

[Abraham]

Wasn't most of the Army and Navy and Air Force of Germany made up of non-political (non-Nazi) party members? It was the people in political power in Germany that were the Nazis. Just because folks were Admirals or Generals didn't mean they were also members in the Nazi Party. Many of them didn't know the full details about the atrocities being commited by the SS (which was the only part of the forces that were made up of Nazis as I understand it).
Not so, although this has long been an article of faith in German history.
Many atrocities against Jews were committed by the German Army, according to revisionist historians. What is even more shocking; some ordinary police troops (non SS and many not even Nazi-members) were involved in the extermination campaign.
The famous example being the well researched history of the (Hamburg) Reserve Police Battallion 101 (500 men), who in a period of 17 months shot 38.000 Jews in Poland and deported 45.200 to getto's and the Treblinka extermination camp.
MIND YOU: These man were mostly middle aged, had an ordinary job besides being a reserve-police man, had mostly wives and children, their commander was not an SS member, the majority of men were not even Nazi members. About 10-20% of them refused at one stage or another to take part in the massacres and were send back to Hamburg to resume police duties in the city (i.e. they were not punished).

[benetofski]

Without doubt a terrible time for mankind - Thank God that humanity has learned from these mistakes and taken a more enlightened path towards racial tollerance and coexistance!

:hmm:

[Razman23]

That was a good read......non politcal, non emotional.

PBS had a short series concerning the work camps about six months ago. It was VERY informative about what the Germans did, how they did it, and why they did it.

Another good movie would be Schiendlers List. A Speilberg movie about the jewish ghetto of Krakoh (SP?) and what a German business man did to save some Jewish workers. Very good but with a little hollywood thrown in.

[bradclark1]

The Jews were a convenient target!
Bingo!
Same as Stalin used land holders and intellectuals in the USSR and was beginning to persecute Jews in 1950.
Same as Mao used land holders and intelligentsia in China.

[grey004]

May I rectify a popular misconception here that "Concentration camps,where invented by the British.



May we settle this discussion knowing that there are virtually no nations in the world that haven't got blood on their hands. We as the dutch massacred the indonesians while the brits invented the Konzentrationslager in south africa and palestine. The french had their way in eastern asia while the russians had their way with the camps. The americans invite themselves practically everywhere around the globe and did some shady business during the years that they were "neutral", even during the war.



The method used by the British in the "Boer War",of incarcerating Boer Civilians,therefore reducing the amount of aid given to their fighting men,abhorrent as it was and still is,was not invented by them.

The authorities at the time implemented the method that was devised by the Germans in South West Africa now Namibia some fifteen to twenty years earlier.
It was they who used this system on the native population,so as the white settlers and immigrants from Germany could have more land so that the colony could expand.

I am in no way,"passing the buck",but until this piece and other little known facts of history,are known in its entirety,then maybe blaming other races for something they did or did not do,might bring about the end of the use of "Genocide",as a tool of war or retribution.

[Abraham]

Destruction camps were certainly invented by the Germans.
Actually I prefer to say Nazi's because I want to avoid to blame the Germans in general and especially the current generation of democratic Germans, who have already to carry the burden of their history and should never be identified or generalised with what happened 80-60 years ago.

[Kapitan]

well the death and labour camps wernt thought of by hitler but by the russians about 10 years earlier
hitler just borrowed the idea

[fatty]

...labour camps wernt thought of by hitler but by the russians about 10 years earlier
hitler just borrowed the idea

That's not correct. I'm not going to take a stab at who invented labour camps, but I know they at least existed as early as the 19th century in Canada.

[elanaiba]

But it doesn't matter who invented them. I find no excuse in "they did it too". Punish everyone, that's all...

[kiwi_2005]

not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want. But the other tends to like walking around with dynomite strapped to his chest and blowing himself and other israelies up. And if you look at the Histroy of the Jew they have been the blame for many centuries by other races. They deserve to have there own land. Also they are Gods choosen, therefore the barbarics nations of yesterday that tried to wipe them off the face of the earth always failed. It could never be done.
I say again im reading the Holocaust book, it would be the most shocking book i will ever read and im a 41 yr old male and yet this book nearly brings me to tears! It is the best book i will ever read.

[Skybird]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.

[Psycluded]

Yeah... yanno, we sort of took israel back from the Palestinian Muslims during WWII and then gave it to the displaced Jews of the Holocaust as a way of reparation for our hesitation in getting involved in the war in Europe and not stopping the slaughter sooner.

The Palestinians have every right to be pissed. This, of course, excuses their terrorist tactics not at all. This is why, however, that they claim ALL of Israel as their own and are refusing to compromise.

Unfortunately, for them to even be taken seriously in the UN, which is their best shot at getting ANY reparations for losing their land in the 1940s, they -have- to crack down on and stop Hamas and Hezbollah from attacking civilian targets in Israel. As a terrorist "nation", and yes I use that word loosely, they are seen as little more than a bothersome crowd that need to grow up and join adult life on the international level rather than pitch fits and fling missiles at everything that moves.

[The Avon Lady]

Yeah... yanno, we sort of took israel back from the Palestinian Muslims during WWII
Care to document this?
and then gave it to the displaced Jews of the Holocaust as a way of reparation for our hesitation in getting involved in the war in Europe and not stopping the slaughter sooner.
Care to document this, too? When was Israel first promised to the Jews in the 20th century?
The Palestinians have every right to be pissed.
Did you know that Jews in Israel were called Palestinians prior to Israel's independence?

So can we Israelis be pissed, too?

There's more to the name "Palestinians" than semantics.

Must be going......... Tata till tomorrow.........

[Abraham]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.
@ Skybird:
What a haughty and personal way to humiliate somebody's opinion and put him in a corner.
:down:
@ Kiwi-2005:
You are right that according to the Bible the country Kanaän was promised to the Jews. Many Jews and Christians stil belief so and the historic (and continual) presence of Jews from about 1200 B.C. till now in Palestina was certainly one of the arguments for the foundation of the State of Israel.
However, in my view promises of God - how valid they may be - have no direct reference to matters of international law. I do not think that Israel can 'claim' land with an appeal on Biblical promises - nor does it have to because its legal foundation is exceptionally strong. Furthermore, you can't expect the Palestinians, who are overwhelmingly Muslim, to accept promises made by God to the People of Israel. The Koran tells them that Israel revolted against God and was turned down by Him.
On the other hand, in the Middle East a political connection is often made - by all parties concerned - between religion and politics, just as it was a century ago in Europe.

Israel is certainly rightfully a Jewish country and you are right that the Palestinians should wake up to reality and accept that. Sadly, they continue to teach generation after generation up till now to dream of a past that never was and certainly will never come, the disappearence of the Jews (euphemisticly called "Zionists") from Israel/Palestine.
I fully agree with you that Israel would settle for living in peace with its neighbours and even make painfull political concessions for that, as it has proven in the past (the Peace Accords with Egypth and Jordan).

[Abraham]

Yeah... yanno, we sort of took israel back from the Palestinian Muslims during WWII and then gave it to the displaced Jews of the Holocaust as a way of reparation for our hesitation in getting involved in the war in Europe and not stopping the slaughter sooner.Who are the "we" you mentioned? The Brits? Well, they certainly never even thought about giving Palestine to the Jews in the 1920's and 1930's. They did their utmost to keep the Jewish population of Palestine artificially low by a myriad of discriminatory administrative measures...
The Palestinians have every right to be pissed.Well, I think the Jews have an older right to be pissed, since the Brits promised the territory of Israel including Jordan to them in 1917, separated Jordan in 1923 and gave it to the Arabs and when that did not work out intended to separate the 'Israel'-part in half and give that to tha Arabs as well - which the Arabs refused when they took up arms to destroy the newborn State of Israel in 1947 and drive the Jews into the Med.
This, of course, excuses their terrorist tactics not at all.I'm glad to see that you don't condone terrorism at all.
:up:
This is why, however, that they claim ALL of Israel as their own and are refusing to compromise.The country was promised twice by the colonial powers, then divided and those are the facts on the ground here and now. If the Arabs don't compromise and keep daydreaming of a "Holocaust-revisited" (to get back on topic) they can hardly expect the Israeli's to start taking down fences and treat them as we for instance treat the Belgiums (with whom we were at war 165 years ago, by the way).
As a terrorist "nation", and yes I use that word loosely, they are seen as little more than a bothersome crowd that need to grow up and join adult life on the international level rather than pitch fits and fling missiles at everything that moves.At the moment they behave more like an 'anarchist and corrupt entity' than a country in being...

[Psycluded]

Yeah... yanno, we sort of took israel back from the Palestinian Muslims during WWII
Care to document this?

and then gave it to the displaced Jews of the Holocaust as a way of reparation for our hesitation in getting involved in the war in Europe and not stopping the slaughter sooner.
Care to document this, too? When was Israel first promised to the Jews in the 20th century?


http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm
In 1917 Chaim Weizmann, scientist, statesman, and Zionist, persuaded the British government to issue a statement favoring the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. The statement which became known as the Balfour Declaration, was, in part, payment to the Jews for their support of the British against the Turks during World War I. After the war, the League of Nations ratified the declaration and in 1922 appointed Britain to rule in Palestine.
and...

http://traubman.igc.org/history.htm
The Zionists bought land at exorbitant prices and extended hands of friendship and cooperation to the local Arabs. After the Nazis exterminated one-third of world Jewry during World War II, the international community understood the Jewish plight and voted at the United Nations in 1947 to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews were overjoyed by this compromise, but the Arabs, inflamed by arrogance and hatred, declared war. Over the course of the following year, the tiny, lightly armed Jewish community in Palestine fought off and ultimately vanquished not only local Palestinian gangs but the well-trained armies of numerous Arab states. During the course of that war, the Arab governments called on the locals to leave so that the armies could do their work swiftly and efficiently. That led to the creation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees. At the end of the war, Israel tried to make peace with its neighbors, but they rejected the overtures and cynically exploited the Palestinian refugee problem.
AND...

http://www.federfiles.com/archives/000004.html

..is a particularly good read.

The Palestinians have every right to be pissed.
Did you know that Jews in Israel were called Palestinians prior to Israel's independence?

So can we Israelis be pissed, too?

There's more to the name "Palestinians" than semantics.

Must be going......... Tata till tomorrow.........
The only evidence I can find on the 'net to back up this claim is:

http://www.science.co.il/History-Palestine.asp

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.
...and it's an Israeli source, so I'm not sure of the impartiality. Not that it matters a bit. Citing internet sources as fact is about as bright as citing The National Enquirer. The historicity of many of these diatribes is debatable, but I've read a great deal of them on the subject. I actually have a good friend in Jerusalem (and hope to make you a second. :)), so I'm not that much removed from the issues, ma'am.

Hannibal, my friend, is also very much a "Zionist" in the old sense of the word, as an avid supporter of the state of Israel. He believes as many Jews do, that the land of Israel is the "promised land" of Canaan, given to the Hebrews by God many thousands of years ago, and that this claim supercedes any human political agenda we may devise. I don't entirely disagree, but the needs and desires of man as a whole have a way of getting in the way of God's will at times. ;)

Hope that explains a little bit of where I was coming from. I'm not used to citing sources outside of my usual political haunts. :D

[Skybird]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.
@ Skybird:
What a haughty and personal way to humiliate somebody's opinion and put him in a corner.

Yes, I totally agree with your description of him. :cool:

[Abraham]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.
@ Skybird:
What a haughty and personal way to humiliate somebody's opinion and put him in a corner.
Yes, I totally agree with your description of him. :cool:If you tried to be funny - of which I'm not sure - you'd better add a P.S. saying so...

[Iceman]

http://www.cyberallies.com/skyteacher2.jpg

[Skybird]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.
@ Skybird:
What a haughty and personal way to humiliate somebody's opinion and put him in a corner.
Yes, I totally agree with your description of him. :cool:If you tried to be funny - I'm not sure - you'd better add a P.S. saying so...
Funny? No, I just learned to treat you the same way you treat others, or me. You see, it is not funny to demand over a million people of a foreign faith to shut up and do as you order them - in the name of your own interests and the sermon of your own idol.

The scriptures my God has wirtten are different. He told me that Ive a right to sleep with your wife, so will you please shut up and send her over this evening, yes. Ah, and while we are at it, he also wrote that I have a right to use your banking account, so give 2000 dollars to take it with her when she comes, yes? Be a nice guy, just do as God has wanted, please. It is written, so it must be, you see. All I want is to live in peace with you.

[Abraham]

Well correct me if im wrong, but according to the Bible God directed the Jews to the promise land which is Jeresulem (pardon my spelling). that which is Israel. So isreal is rightfully the Jews country. The Palesteins should accept that and live in peace with the Jew cause thats what the Jews want.

:dead: With that simple mindset, any reason must fail, and the devil will have easy prey.
@ Skybird:
What a haughty and personal way to humiliate somebody's opinion and put him in a corner.
Yes, I totally agree with your description of him. :cool:If you tried to be funny - of which I'm not sure - you'd better add a P.S. saying so...
Funny? No, I just learned to treat you the same way you treat others, or me. You see, it is not funny to demand over a million people of a foreign faith to shut up and do as you order them - in the name of your own interests and the sermon of your own idol.
The scriptures my God has wirtten are different. He told me that Ive a right to sleep with your wife, so will you please shut up and send her over this evening, yes. Ah, and while we are at it, he also wrote that I have a right to use your banking account, so give 2000 dollars to take it with her when she comes, yes? Be a nice guy, just do as God has wanted, please. It is written, so it must be, you see. All I want is to live in peace with you.
Well well, you can be funny after all...
I have never told and would never tell the Palestinians to "shut up".
And, now we're at it, according to the Koran my wife is not alowed to have sex with a nonbelieving German and my $ 2,000 are still blocked at Arafat's bank account.
It therefor seems that you got the wrong addressee. By the way, never mind that rocket that just landed in front of your appartment and that blown up bus that you just happened to miss yesterday.

Get back to topic and say something sensible on this thread about the Holocaust, like kiwi-2005 and I did.
You can open your own thread on the poor Palestinians and the whicked Jews if you want...

[Skybird]

Baaah, spare your whining for some lefty's anarcho-website, stick to what matters and send her over with the money - my God is bigger than yours.

[Abraham]

To continue the topic:

The Holocaust carried all aspects of a genocide of the Jews in Europe, regardless of sex and age.
Whatever a Jew had alledgedly done or not was totally irrelevant, the mere fact that he or she was a Jew, regardless of sex and age, was enough to be deported to concentration and/or destruction camps. In Holland this happened under the pretence of 'forced labour'. However, when a Jewish home for the elderly and some Jewish hospitals as well as a Jewish psychiatric were 'evacuated' and patients - some on stretchers - were send to the Dutch camp Westerbork, pending 'forced labour work in the East' few had any illusion about their final fate, although few expected immediate gassing.
In a develish attempt to hide that fact the Germans sometimes forced deportees to send short notes to their remaining family, telling them everything was O.K. and that they had met former friends and family. Often the sender was gassed and cremated before the letter arrived in Holland. Some of those letters are at display in Dutch musea.
This was because the Germans had worked out that in order to succeed with their enormous task they needed some form of cooperation. They led the Jews into a psychological trap: 'If you don't obey you'll get shot right away, if you obey you have at least a chance." Many still believed that when they had to undress and get into the 'mass-showers' in Auschwitz, Sobibor or Treblinka.
The Nazi's took thorough measures that the Jewish 'race' would never rise again. They develloped an ingenious system of qualifications of 3/4 Jews, 1/2 Jews, 1/4 Jews and 1/8 Jews, as well as Jews converted to other religions and/or married to non-Jews. 'Scientists' in raciology determined at which level the Jewish 'blood' was not dominant anymore. The 3/4 Jews were 'dead meat', but 1/2 Jews or 1/4 Jews often got the chance to survive if they got sterialised.

But is was more than 'just' that. It was also culture-cide. As a matter of course synagogues and Jewish institutions were demolished, Jewish works of art destroyed, Jewish libraries burned and every trace of Jewish existence in Europe removes. Already before the outbreak of WWII many German cities and villages proudly displayed signs "Judenrein" (= Cleared of Jews). The language that European Jews had used for hundreds of years, the 'Yiddish', disappeared. In their painstaking diligence to eradicate the Jewish contribution to the Dutch history, even streetnames, referring to famous Dutch Jews of the past, thinkers, poets, painters, musicians etc. were all renamed and their contribution was removed from Dutch history books...

It's because of all this that I am extremely careful to compare human suffering, or even war crimes in general, with what happened to the Jewish people between 1933 and 1945.

[Damo1977]

Wasn't most of the Army and Navy and Air Force of Germany made up of non-political (non-Nazi) party members? It was the people in political power in Germany that were the Nazis. Just because folks were Admirals or Generals didn't mean they were also members in the Nazi Party. Many of them didn't know the full details about the atrocities being commited by the SS (which was the only part of the forces that were made up of Nazis as I understand it).
Not so, although this has long been an article of faith in German history.
Many atrocities against Jews were committed by the German Army, according to revisionist historians. What is even more shocking; some ordinary police troops (non SS and many not even Nazi-members) were involved in the extermination campaign.
The famous example being the well researched history of the (Hamburg) Reserve Police Battallion 101 (500 men), who in a period of 17 months shot 38.000 Jews in Poland and deported 45.200 to getto's and the Treblinka extermination camp.
MIND YOU: These man were mostly middle aged, had an ordinary job besides being a reserve-police man, had mostly wives and children, their commander was not an SS member, the majority of men were not even Nazi members. About 10-20% of them refused at one stage or another to take part in the massacres and were send back to Hamburg to resume police duties in the city (i.e. they were not punished).

Mind you Abraham, this comes from what you read! May I ask why are Ukranians, Lithunians, Croats + others still being charged with war crimes til this very day and hunted down. You only state the popular belief that the Germans controlled Europe and German Soldiers covered Europe like a army of ants, when the Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and the Italians all had a roll, plus the Spanish plus many other foreign troops. And also when you mix SS and Wermacht troops, your arguement loses its power. SS were elite, Wermacht were the same in a different style. Like normal uneducated people unlike urself, sorry aint a lawyer here Abraham, so can't bend the truth. Have you ever read the stories or heard the stories of prison camp guards. What would 2 bottles of vodka do to you. SO don't generally accuse the normal German/Axis fighting soldier or civilian of these atrocities.

[Damo1977]

Now mind you there is a story from the Allied side, that the Western Allies were getting 'Execution numbers' from code, and these numbers grew.And these numbers grew from the Polish site I think what is called Treblinka, late on the war. The Bristish were going to bomb it, with Mosquitoes, to put it out of ACTION. But the US never allowed it.

[1916]

Very touchy topic. I may have misinterpreted a couple of posts here, but in the title post, it said that the hatred spread into the East. There is a slight error in the statement, as the same hatred had existed in Russia for years. Ukrainians were killed off in huge numbers as well, Western history seems to largely ignore the Ukrainian Genocide. The things the Russians did to Poles in the early years were just as bad if not worse than what the Germans did. The Russians beheaded and skinned people alive as well as locking them in barns/houses and setting them on fire.

About Schindler's List, that is a well done movie, the method it was filmed in was nothing short of brilliant because of the way the main points were conveyed. But the content was horrible (as in very hard to watch), when the lights turned off in the shower, and I heard the screaming, I almost froze and couldn't move (I was petrified at what really happened). But there is more than just "a little" hollywood in it. Krakow is home to a Jewish quarter, and housed a majority of Polish jews. The reaction that the people gave to those marching to the ghetto may have represented a very small majority of Poles, because the majority helped jewish families escape from the country and find refuge in other places. There are even Polish Catholic families that are honored in Israel for saving hundreds of Jewish lives (my facing history teacher told me that, she was Jewish, and had been to Israel a few times). My family was one of those who hid jews from the Germans and helped them escape, even my grandmother was taken from her home, forced to watch her first boyfriend executed by firing squad, then sent to forced labor in Germany, but escaped just short of the German border and found her way back to Warsaw (I think her history is nothing short of brave and amazing).

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things, and when you are saying bad things about what the Germans did, remember it was the Russians who opened up the second front, forcing our army to fall quickly because not even the German war machine could fight on two fronts. And the RUSSIANS raped, pillages, skinned, and burned civillians in their way, even ones who didn't fight.

Before anyoner asks, Poland is 98.7% Roman Catholic so I guess that tells where I fit into things. I do have evidence backing up my claims, books from Prof. Norman Davies. I'd be glad to talk about the Polish involvement in WWII in private (PM) if anyone is interested.

Edit : Despite that I will write, I am one of those who firmly believes hate is the worst thing to have. Hating someone is a waste of your health, time, and expressing it is a waste of breath.

[Abraham]

Wasn't most of the Army and Navy and Air Force of Germany made up of non-political (non-Nazi) party members? It was the people in political power in Germany that were the Nazis. Just because folks were Admirals or Generals didn't mean they were also members in the Nazi Party. Many of them didn't know the full details about the atrocities being commited by the SS (which was the only part of the forces that were made up of Nazis as I understand it).
Not so, although this has long been an article of faith in German history.
Many atrocities against Jews were committed by the German Army, according to revisionist historians. What is even more shocking; some ordinary police troops (non SS and many not even Nazi-members) were involved in the extermination campaign.
The famous example being the well researched history of the (Hamburg) Reserve Police Battallion 101 (500 men), who in a period of 17 months shot 38.000 Jews in Poland and deported 45.200 to getto's and the Treblinka extermination camp.
MIND YOU: These man were mostly middle aged, had an ordinary job besides being a reserve-police man, had mostly wives and children, their commander was not an SS member, the majority of men were not even Nazi members. About 10-20% of them refused at one stage or another to take part in the massacres and were send back to Hamburg to resume police duties in the city (i.e. they were not punished).

Mind you Abraham, this comes from what you read! May I ask why are Ukranians, Lithunians, Croats + others still being charged with war crimes til this very day and hunted down. You only state the popular belief that the Germans controlled Europe and German Soldiers covered Europe like a army of ants, when the Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and the Italians all had a roll, plus the Spanish plus many other foreign troops. And also when you mix SS and Wermacht troops, your arguement loses its power. SS were elite, Wermacht were the same in a different style. Like normal uneducated people unlike urself, sorry aint a lawyer here Abraham, so can't bend the truth. Have you ever read the stories or heard the stories of prison camp guards. What would 2 bottles of vodka do to you. SO don't generally accuse the normal German/Axis fighting soldier or civilian of these atrocities.
I have gone several times through your posting trying to understand it, but failed. Probably a matter of language...
But if your final point is that only SS and special units committed atrocities against Jews, I'm sorry to tell you that you're wrong (I wished you were right). I thought so till about 10 years ago, but there's plenty of historic evidence for the involvement of non SS units in the holocaust. If you want some, send me a p.m.

[Damo1977]

Abraham that what I was trying to say, there were two different SS forces the fighting force and the camp force. This is what ****es me is that people generalise the whole SS as the camp guards and they were the only ones commiting atrocities. When in fact like you say it was a broad selection of forces and of many different nationalities. My 2 bottle of vodka remark, was what I read, from a source that he had to drink 2 bottles of vodka before he could shoot the innocents.

so take care

[Abraham]

That clarifies at least the language.
About the two bottles of wodka: I've read that wodka was made available for Einsatzkommando's, the special killing squads who - during actions - had to shoot hundreds of Jews through the back of their head. In order to avoid being haunted with this unnatural behaviour during the night, they got wodka. I find this a weird question in relation to the subject:
What would 2 bottles of vodka do to you.Alcohol is not an excuse for mass murder!

There was indeed the SS Skull Head units and the Waffen-SS. But of course these were still two branches from the same tree, at least untill the shortage of manpower lowered their standards. For war crimes committed by the Waffen SS - not counting the Eastern Front - the famous example is the atrocities of the 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich', the slaughter of 642 innocent civilians - the whole population - in Oradour-sur-Glane (France, June 1944).

But this whole argument misses the point I made: the War against the Jews, the Holocaust, was fought by more then the SS. Many 'normal' Germans participated in anti-Semitic measures, the Government down to local level fully supported them, as did the Army. After WWII broke out the German Army was the first to maltreat the Polish Jews. At the time the Final Solution got in high gear, in mid-March 1942, 75-80% of all victims of the Holocaust were still alive. Eleven months later, in mid-February 1942, 75-80% had perished. That means that in less than one year about 3.000.000 Jews were slaughtered.
The six death camps, Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka, only had a minimal compliment of guards, since there was not much to guard after the arrival and 'processing' of the transports. However, litterally millions of Jews first had to be found, collected and - before the death camps were operational - killed in Eastern Europe.
Since SS Leader Himmler was also Supreme Chief of all German police forces he could use the German police at will for this part of theFinal Solution.
First came the 4 (as of July 1942: 5) SS-Einsatzgruppen, a total of 2.500 men to which 500 men from 3 police companies of the 9th (non-SS) Police Battalion were attached. These were the men that shot easy to find communities of Jews. After the invasion of Russia another 5.500 policemen were assigned to the Einstazgruppen for more extensive Search & Destroy operations against Jewish communities. Therefor most of the mass shootings were not even done by SS but by police units! Furthermore many policemen were not even Nazi's. In Poland Himmler used 12 to 15 (non SS)Police battalions (mostly if not all reservists).
Of course I do not accuse the average German soldier of civilian of participating in the execution of the Final Solution. But it's really a misunderstanding to think that 'only' a few Skull Head SS squads did the killings. On the contrary, it was a massive Government effort, executed by SS and police forces and at any stage helped by the Army and/or Civil German authorities.

[Damo1977]

Yes it is a touchy subject but I would like to ask,
Why do we concentrate on the Holocaust from the Jewish perspective, when there were Gypsies, retarded people, homosexuals and various other minorities.

Also why do we focus on the WW2 Holocaust, when every nation around the world has done the genocide act at some time or other.

Now the following lines, are what I say, you may interpret them differently. I am going straight to the point.

Is it time for the Jewish people to stop crying about this point in time? And b4 you say I am anti-Semite my Grandma (Dads side tried to get her best friend back from France, so no rascism runs in our family)

[1916]

List of similar Genocides :

Armenia
Ukraine
Cambodia
Tibet
Rawanda
Bosnia
Burma

Someone in my high school was from Rwanda, he was in a group of people that was tied and up and put before a firing squad. His father, brother, and everyone around him was killed, but he fell under the dead bodies, and somehow managed to get out and came to the US and started a new life.

[Abraham]

Yes it is a touchy subject but I would like to ask,
Why do we concentrate on the Holocaust from the Jewish perspective, when there were Gypsies, retarded people, homosexuals and various other minorities.Who does? I don't! I find every innocent victim of (state) terror a shame. And in my earlier postings I clearly pointed out that apart from Jews there were other groups that were victimised by the Nazi's. The crux of the matter is the Nazi's concentrated the Holocaust on the Jews first and foremost.
My question is: What do you mean by "concentrating on the Holocaust from a Jewish perspective". I think I was quite objective in my description of some aspects of the Holocaust and I find that a weird remark from somebody who admits that it is "a touchy subject".
(As you might know I am not Jewish myself. I just take the topic seriously, knowing that there are still many 2nd & 3rd generation victims around).
Also why do we focus on the WW2 Holocaust, when every nation around the world has done the genocide act at some time or other.You don't have to focus on the Holocaust. Nobody forces you to post in this thread. It might be interesting if you'ld open a thread about simular racism, culminating in genocide with mass gassings in death camps etc. in your own country...
Is it time for the Jewish people to stop crying about this point in time?Well, ask the Jewish people. Perhaps they might feel that there is still reason enough in the world around them to keep the memory of the Holocaust alive.
In Holland there certainly is: Jewish teenage girls at schools are regulary addressed by Moroccans youngsters as "Jewish whores" who should be "gassed" (this is of course just 'teasing'), Jewish synagogues are under surveillance of the police on the Sabbath and dozens of times last year groups of 'recognisable' Jews were molested by Muslin youths. I find that a bloody shame for a - once - tolerant country and I can hardly blame some Jews for looking back to the late twenties and early thirties of the last century when the same things started happening in Germany.

[The Avon Lady]

And b4 you say I am anti-Semite my Grandma (Dads side tried to get her best friend back from France, so no rascism runs in our family)
This is a verbatim quote of one of several private mails I got in my message box from you, from this past August 26:
GO CRY TO THE AMERICANS...............U JEWS ARE PATHETIC........WE GAVE U A CHANCE, US ROMAN CATHOLICS.........WE ALSO NOTICED YOU TRY TO SHRINK OUR WRITING...............GIVE YOU ANOTHER BUT ................
I'll let other readers here judge just what you really are.

The only reason you weren't banned is because you ceased sending me these the moment SubSim's owner mailed you to cut it out pronto or else. Why he permitted even that is beyond me.

[Iceman]

This is a verbatim quote of one of several private mails I got in my message box from you, from this past August 26:
GO CRY TO THE AMERICANS...............U JEWS ARE PATHETIC........WE GAVE U A CHANCE, US ROMAN CATHOLICS.........WE ALSO NOTICED YOU TRY TO SHRINK OUR WRITING...............GIVE YOU ANOTHER BUT ................
I'll let other readers here judge just what you really are.

This is why the Jewish people do still need to watch their backs, from winnies like this. America will support Jews and anyone else who needs protection from Ignorance like this.True colors there is all...sounds like a comment straight form a Nazi..."You Jews"...your pathetic Damo.

[Takeda Shingen]

SELF EDITED: No personal attacks. Even if it is directed at Damo1977.

[Polak]

And b4 you say I am anti-Semite my Grandma (Dads side tried to get her best friend back from France, so no rascism runs in our family)
This is a verbatim quote of one of several private mails I got in my message box from you, from this past August 26:
GO CRY TO THE AMERICANS...............U JEWS ARE PATHETIC........WE GAVE U A CHANCE, US ROMAN CATHOLICS.........WE ALSO NOTICED YOU TRY TO SHRINK OUR WRITING...............GIVE YOU ANOTHER BUT ................
I'll let other readers here judge just what you really are.

The only reason you weren't banned is because you ceased sending me these the moment SubSim's owner mailed you to cut it out pronto or else. Why he permitted even that is beyond me.


Damo1977, you are just too much... In a good way :up:
You have a great fan and friend here at Subsim, at that's me :D

[Abraham]

And b4 you say I am anti-Semite my Grandma (Dads side tried to get her best friend back from France, so no rascism runs in our family)
This is a verbatim quote of one of several private mails I got in my message box from you, from this past August 26:
GO CRY TO THE AMERICANS...............U JEWS ARE PATHETIC........WE GAVE U A CHANCE, US ROMAN CATHOLICS.........WE ALSO NOTICED YOU TRY TO SHRINK OUR WRITING...............GIVE YOU ANOTHER BUT ................
I'll let other readers here judge just what you really are.

The only reason you weren't banned is because you ceased sending me these the moment SubSim's owner mailed you to cut it out pronto or else. Why he permitted even that is beyond me.


Damo1977, you are just too much... In a good way :up:
You have a great fan and friend here at Subsim, at that's me :D
:stare:
The topic of this thread is the Holocaust.

[Damo1977]

Anyhow is it such a crime to ask honest and truthful question/statements? Sorry if I don't beat around the bush, but go straight to the point. Thats me :hmm: Maybe I need to employ a spin doctor!! Anyhow my views of the world aren't always set in concrete, so if you have a good arguement I can always change. Plus I don't want to be a sheep, and follow general views just because the majority are.


The only reason you weren't banned is because you ceased sending me these the moment SubSim's owner mailed you to cut it out pronto or else. Why he permitted even that is beyond me.

I already said sorry Avon Lady and I remember it still and am deeply regretful for it, but I thought you and I had resigned it to the history book.

Iceman always calls me a winnie, what the hell is a winnie? Is he calling me Winnie the Pooh, or is saying that he don't like people called Winifred?

[DAB]

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?


not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

It can be applied to the British (I'll suggest Scotland and Ireland here), France (Algeria), Russians, Israeli's, United States

My suggestion is name a state or people it doesn't apply to.

[Abraham]

Anyhow is it such a crime to ask honest and truthful question/statements? Sorry if I don't beat around the bush, but go straight to the point. Thats me :hmm: ... Anyhow my views of the world aren't always set in concrete, so if you have a good arguement I can always change...
Damo1977, you have asked a lot of questions in your various postings on this thread.
Here is a honest question from me to you:
Have your views on the Holocaust changed after reading the answers to your questions?
:-?

[Abraham]

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?


not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

It can be applied to the British (I'll suggest Scotland and Ireland here), France (Algeria), Russians, Israeli's, United States

My suggestion is name a state or people it doesn't apply to.
The point is that Mowgli's 'shortlist' of Nazi crimes is indeed too short. It should include not just concentration camps but the extermination camps, the gass chambers, the crematoria and the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process. Then it does not sound that familiar anymore...
Nothing like that is going on now, thanks God.
In the past, perhaps the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks comes close...

[Damo1977]

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?


not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

It can be applied to the British (I'll suggest Scotland and Ireland here), France (Algeria), Russians, Israeli's, United States

My suggestion is name a state or people it doesn't apply to.
The point is that Mowgli's 'shortlist' of Nazi crimes is indeed too short. It should include not just concentration camps but the extermination camps, the gass chambers, the crematoria and the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process. Then it does not sound that familiar anymore...
Nothing like that is going on now, thanks God.
In the past, perhaps the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks comes close...

See because of you people after 2 months and doing my own bit research about it, and especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong, but must admit he was a tough both in mind and body). I have figured out why we as a western world concentrate on the Nazi Germany and 'The Holocaust' in genocide. I originally thought, it was just the Axis powers lost, and that was the last real war (hope you military ppls know what I mean), so lets pick on Germany and it allies, but especially Germany. My conclusion is what Abraham wrote "the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process." And especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong). And if I can add to what Abraham wrote, what I found must repulsive (in a military mind), was that they stopped troop trains, to allow the camp trains to pass and get to their station on time.Please don't take my sentence wrong.

[Damo1977]

And b4 you say I am anti-Semite my Grandma (Dads side tried to get her best friend back from France, so no rascism runs in our family)
This is a verbatim quote of one of several private mails I got in my message box from you, from this past August 26:
GO CRY TO THE AMERICANS...............U JEWS ARE PATHETIC........WE GAVE U A CHANCE, US ROMAN CATHOLICS.........WE ALSO NOTICED YOU TRY TO SHRINK OUR WRITING...............GIVE YOU ANOTHER BUT ................
I'll let other readers here judge just what you really are.

The only reason you weren't banned is because you ceased sending me these the moment SubSim's owner mailed you to cut it out pronto or else. Why he permitted even that is beyond me.

See I tried to resist, but like I said I was sorry and regretted it. I ain't saying sorry for something I said a month and a half ago. Because that would devalue my first sorry. Just like to say, since you can't resign things to the history books, or forget people. Would like to say in my defence, it wasn't because of Subsims's owners, I feel asleep and responded to them that morning. Than I also responded to you. Wasn't it about the time the Israel pulled out of Palestine. And what did I say that morning, 'I am sorry for what I said last night, I can't believe Israel is pulling out of Palestine, you captured it, thats your land'. or something very similiar, sorry I don't record my pms.

Anyhow I don't wanna rumble in Jerusalem anymore, I work to long now so too worn out. ;) ;) ;) ;) So take care Avon Lady and your family.

[Abraham]

Now lets see what the Nazis done.

Illegally settled other peoples land.
Destroyed the homes of the famillies of the resistance.
Conviscated farms for their own use.
Exiled people from their countries.
Build concentration camps.
Practised racial discrimination.
Created gettos within occupied lands.
Sanctioned State murder of the opposition - iregardles of nearby innocent civilians.

Any of that sound familiar?


not to be offensive but this reminds me of israel and the palestiniens

It can be applied to the British (I'll suggest Scotland and Ireland here), France (Algeria), Russians, Israeli's, United States

My suggestion is name a state or people it doesn't apply to.
The point is that Mowgli's 'shortlist' of Nazi crimes is indeed too short. It should include not just concentration camps but the extermination camps, the gass chambers, the crematoria and the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process. Then it does not sound that familiar anymore...
Nothing like that is going on now, thanks God.
In the past, perhaps the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks comes close...

See because of you people after 2 months and doing my own bit research about it, and especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong, but must admit he was a tough both in mind and body). I have figured out why we as a western world concentrate on the Nazi Germany and 'The Holocaust' in genocide. I originally thought, it was just the Axis powers lost, and that was the last real war (hope you military ppls know what I mean), so lets pick on Germany and it allies, but especially Germany. My conclusion is what Abraham wrote "the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process." And especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong). And if I can add to what Abraham wrote, what I found must repulsive (in a military mind), was that they stopped troop trains, to allow the camp trains to pass and get to their station on time.Please don't take my sentence wrong.
Fair answer.
By the way, you mean mr. Simon Wiesenthal, the Nazi hunter.

[XabbaRus]

I do find it ironic that Icemans sig is a skull with the initials S.S. on a banner above the skull and this is in a holocaust thread.

[Iceman]

I do find it ironic that Icemans sig is a skull with the initials S.S. on a banner above the skull and this is in a holocaust thread.

SS is not a thing invented by the Nazi's...I believe it stands for Secret Service or maybe even hum...Silent Service...ya think ?....and Damo I am refering to a

http://www.cyberallies.com/hotdog.jpg

when I call ya winnie...a weiner , hotdog.... weinnie....a Wie Hund... however ya want to spell it ya get it now ya hot dog.It is a polite way to say you are being an ASS.
http://www.cyberallies.com/ass.jpg

[Abraham]

The point is that Mowgli's 'shortlist' of Nazi crimes is indeed too short. It should include not just concentration camps but the extermination camps, the gass chambers, the crematoria and the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process. Then it does not sound that familiar anymore...See because of you people after 2 months and doing my own bit research about it, and especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong, but must admit he was a tough both in mind and body). I have figured out why we as a western world concentrate on the Nazi Germany and 'The Holocaust' in genocide. I originally thought, it was just the Axis powers lost, and that was the last real war (hope you military ppls know what I mean), so lets pick on Germany and it allies, but especially Germany. My conclusion is what Abraham wrote "the administrative and logistic effort to exterminate a whole people for no - valid - reason as efficiently as possible in an industrialised process." And especially after Mr Simon Westherall death. (I know its spelt wrong). And if I can add to what Abraham wrote, what I found must repulsive (in a military mind), was that they stopped troop trains, to allow the camp trains to pass and get to their station on time.Please don't take my sentence wrong.I understand Damo1977 has been provocative and offended some. Still I would suggest that everybody refrains from personal attacks on him. If you feel offended, send him a p.m.
He says he changed his point of view and we can't do anything else but give him a third chance and the benefit of the doubt...

[StdDev]

SS is not a thing invented by the Nazi's...I believe it stands for Secret Service or maybe even hum...Silent Service...ya think ?....

Schutzstaffel: Literally Protection Force or Defense Squad. This complex organization was at the heart of the German political and social revolution and later attempts to control nearly all aspects of German (and later European) life. The Schutzstaffel consisted of three main parts, the Allgemeine-SS, the SS-Totenkopfverbände and the Waffen-SS. The well known image of this organization was its abreviation, the double SS.

In 1921 Adolf Hitler formed his own private army called Sturm Abteilung (Storm Section). The SA (also known as stormtroopers or brownshirts) were instructed to disrupt the meetings of political opponents and to protect Hitler from revenge attacks. Captain Ernst Roehm of the Bavarian Army played an important role in recruiting these men, and became the SA's first leader.

In 1925 Adolf Hitler formed his own personal bodyguard called the Schutzstaffel (SS). Four years later Hitler appointed Heinrich Himmler as the leader of the SS. By the time of Himmler's appointment the SS had only 280 members. They wore the same uniform as the SA except for a black cap with a silver death's head badge and a black tie.

Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works. The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS. The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.

Nor was Germany the first or only nation to have "deaths head organisations".
My grandfather served in the Duke of Cambridges own 17th Lancers in WWI..... (Brit in case you dont know)
The badge of the 17th Lancers http://204.115.170.104/images/17th.gif

[Damo1977]

Thank you Abraham for both, but I feel I must reply to Iceman and than leave it at that


when I call ya winnie...a weiner , hotdog.... weinnie....a Wie Hund... however ya want to spell it ya get it now ya hot dog.It is a polite way to say you are being an ASS.


A weiner is a polite way of saying ass???? :o How offensive!!!! I must go grab my box of tissues to wipe away my tears of hysterical laughter :rotfl:

Anyhow I have learnt something today so it want be wasted :rotfl:

[Dead Mans Hand]

.... I'm more used to reinactors, so indulge me on this.

When you talk about the SS please know that there are three parts of the SS

Schutzstaffel
Waffen SS
Totenkopf

The schutstaffel, or traditional SS, were as previously mentioned SS troops that swore personal oaths of loyalty to Hitler - in person - and served in the Fatherland

The Waffen SS, gray shirts, were field soldiers. May divisions, too little time. They were elites and blond hared/blue eyed. They got the best equipment and rarely were comprised of soley infantry, they were generaly mechanized or armored divisions.

The Totenkopf, these were the murderers, comprised of both SS and Waffen SS soldiers. They were marked by a skull and crossbone on their collar. These are the soldiers that rotated between concentration camps and the front lines (because, believe it or not, the things the did at those camps caused more trauma to their psyche then the front did.) These men were comprised of psychopaths and murderers. For my sake, please do not discredit the entirity of the SS, which was comprised of some of the most brilliant commanders to ever walk this earth. Those who did what they did in the camps were a disgraces to the Fatherland, however the SS that served in the field of battle were feared by the Allies - generally the mere site of an SS unit would cause soldiers to loose their bowels. Never before or after in the modern world has an military force through it's prowess, cunning, and ruthlessness been both so deeply respected and widely feared.

As for Donitz, he was no Nazi, nor was the majority of the SS, Wermacht, Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine. You must understand at the time the German attitude and fierce nationalistic pride of the German people of the time. Also, as a side note - to anyone that's read Mein Kampf and looked into the history of the period, most politician's and lawer's were Jewish at this point, also after WWI the Jews who were uninvolved and were now taking over business from bankrupt Germany. Before Hitler it took nearly 3,000,000 marks to equal one US dollar. Before 1942 the Reichmark was worth abit more than the US dollar. He took a broken nation and gave her hope. Unfortunately he used the Jews as a scapegoat to do it. Before I'm called a Nazi sympathizer, I would like to point out that Hitler and his Nazi's were an embarassment and a blemish on the honor of the Fatherland's finest men.

The misguided point of this post: The Holocaust and what caused it is far deeper than one can get by reading a book soley about the Holocaust. You must look at the entire picture and perhaps gain a sad understanding for those who were helpless to stop it and thus turned a blind eye.

If you seriously wish to know of the some of the darkest horrors of the camps, research Doctor Mengele and other Nazi "medical" experiments. Anyone - and I do mean anyone - that can support Nazi's after that deserves to be shot.

[Abraham]

@ Dead Mans Hand:
I reacted to your posting on a new thread, called: The SS.

However, a few elements of your answer really have to do with this threads subject:... Also, as a side note - to anyone that's read Mein Kampf and looked into the history of the period, most politician's and lawer's were Jewish at this point, also after WWI the Jews who were uninvolved and were now taking over business from bankrupt Germany.I hope you don't start to blame the Jews for causing the Nazi's to start the Holocaust. There were a few hundred thousand Jews living in Germany, not in Getthos, but integrated in German society. They were not an 'external threat'. Many were not even aware of being Jewish... In no sector of the economy did Jews have the upper hand. Jewish Germans suffered as much under the economic malaise of the twenties as non-Jewish Germans. Furthermore, the German Jews were not one monolithic group. They were politically left or right, Communist or Capitalist, poor or rich, and had no common political agenda. Anti-Semitism really scapecoated them. And how do German Jews take over business from bankrupt Germany?
Before Hitler it took nearly 3,000,000 marks to equal one US dollar. Before 1942 the Reichmark was worth abit more than the US dollar.And three years later Germany was completely ruined... Hitler's war economy was bound to collapse and the strenght of the Reichsmark was founded on plundering occupied territories He took a broken nation and gave her hope.That's the weirdest explanation of Hitlers 'contribution' towards Germany I've ever read... I would prefer to say "Hitler took over a recovering nation and through his actions destroyed it utterly in 12 years time, causing millions and millions of German and other victims in the process.

[1916]

Just a couple of points :

I read a alittle about the subject, where Hitler got his hatred. It is rumored that he had Jewish blood himself and was so harsh on them because he felt that he had to hide it. He was a brilliant artist (from what I read), but a Jewish student beat him to art school, and that was one of the many things that got him really ticked off. That seems VERY shallow and selfish to me. VERY bad character (which we would see 10 years later).

He was arested for a brawl in a Munich beer hall, it was known as the "Munich Putsch" (please correct me if I spelled it wrong or used the wrong word!) which is well documented and that is what made him write "Mein Kampf". In a way, the allies after WWI are part to blame for his rise to power because of harsh reparation payments which forced the German economy to plunge like that in the first place. IF Hitler would have kept ALL German forces inside Germany, and killed no one, then I would agree with you that he would have gave Germany hope, and been one of the greatest leaders of all time. But because of his hatred, his shallowness, and his hatred of himself, he ruined Germany and it's name for years to come. It was a hope prior to the invasions, but after September 1939, saying he gave Germany a hope would have been unbased, false, and just dumb.

The things Mendel (and his nazi doctors) did were way wrong, they could have been done under controlled conditions were no one would have given their lives. I am totally lost when it comes to him, because prior to involvement with the nazi party, He sounded like a well educated and cultured individual.

And last, saying most of the SS were not nazis, I really have to question that. For some reason, I believe the most hardened nazis and those very loyal to Hitler were SS. The regular field soldiers were the Wehrmacht, and some of the Waffen SS I guess you could say were just Elite, not "supernazis". I agree that most of the DKM and Lufftwaffe were not nazis, but both were infested with them. I say that for those branches because in both, fighting aggressivly was the only way to survive and if someone used aggressive fighting to classify nazis, then they would use that term to classify a human characteristic and trait, hence calling normal non political soldiers "nazis". That word when it comes to Lufftwaffe and DKM really depends on the maturity or education of a person.

P.S. I feel kind of wierd bringing this up, but I was in "Facing History : The Holocaust and other Genocides" in High school, an incident took place, when the teacher (who was Jewish, but was a really nice lady) seriously hurt me buy saying that the Poles "assisted nazi extermination of the Jewish people in WWII", I almost shot straight up out of my seat and objected, but didn't because I thought I would look bad when I knew there was misinformation in her statement (long story). I ended up talking to her after most classes about different topics, and I told her how my family saved many Jewish people, and my views on the topic, she called me a "Righteous Gentile". She said it was a term used by a foundation in Israel, so I am curious to see if anyone could fill me in on that.

[Abraham]

... My teacher, who was Jewish, but was a really nice lady) seriously hurt me buy saying that the Poles "assisted nazi extermination of the Jewish people in WWII", I almost shot straight up out of my seat and objected, but didn't because I thought I would look bad when I knew there was misinformation in her statement (long story). I ended up talking to her after most classes about different topics, and I told her how my family saved many Jewish people, and my views on the topic, she called me a "Righteous Gentile". She said it was a term used by a foundation in Israel, so I am curious to see if anyone could fill me in on that.
In this connotation the 'Rightious amougst the Gentiles' are those non-Jews (=Gentiles) who took personal risks - and sometimes gave their live - during the war in order to save Jews. Oskar Schindler is a well known example, but there are many others - of course. At the Holocaust Memorial at Yad Vashem (Jerusalem) there is a tree planted for every non-Jew who's story could be verified. If this story is known at Yad Vashem, there might be a tree; or alternatively, they might plant a tree for your family...

[1916]

Thanks!

[Dead Mans Hand]

@Abraham

Firstly, I do not blame the Jews for starting the Holocaust, there was however at the time factors that made the Nazi's initial approach of deportation very appealing (bear in mind the Holocaust did not start until 1943. I'm sure you know this, but Holocaust translates to mass-murder, up until this point Jews were being deported or rounded up into Ghettos, concentration, and work camps. Most of the killing had yet to start.) Since Jews were holding most positions of power as business owners, lawyers, bankers, and politicians it was easy for the Nazi party to begin the ball rolling - but again at first it was not murder as it was during the Holocaust namely because the Nazi's were far from their peak of power around 1941-1942. Psychologicaly it's the same as a frog in a pot of water, if you turn the heat up slowly it will not notice until it's far too late. At first the Nazi's promised prosperity by removing lawyers, bankers, politicians, and business owners (if you were dirt poor this would appeal to you as well I think) that happend to be Jewish at the time. Also they directed the immense anger over WWI and how France and other UN nations were treating German's like ****. (Wilson was right, we should have broken Germany, not taunted her.) to the Jews. I'm not saying that is ok, I am saying however it is very easy to understand how Hitler pulled the wool over the worlds eyes and I'm trying to keep it short, so I apologize if it's overly vague.

@Abraham
You're comments on the economy, yes after WWII it was shot. But if you want to talk history, in 1940 I think it was Germany spent more money on it's military alone than the U.S. had in it's total budget - by a very significant amount. He took what was practically 3rd world to 1st world in a record time. The point I'm trying to make is not that Nazi's were ok, it is that I can easily understand why so many people against their own better judgement followed these animals at first.

@Abraham
Some of Germany's darkest moments occured in WWII, but also some of it's proudest. Hitler took a nation that was raped and humiliated by the French and other nations after WWI, turned it around, and for a span of nearly four years the entire world shook beneath the might of the German armies. You must be able to seperate the Nazi party from the German people. Idealogy from man to appreciate this I suppose. Is there an Aryan super race? Heck no, but are Germans historicaly the best there are at waging war? Ofcourse we are. ;-) (This is ment jokingly, though I do site Emperor Otto I, Visigoth ruler of the Roman Empire... shortly before it's collapse)

@1916
Mengele's expirments under controled conditions? Let alone the other things they did? You apparently haven't read past the starvation, temperature extremes, dehyrdation, drowning, salt water consumption, or air pressure tests they ran on men, women, and children, to get to the parts where they infected individuals with various disease, removed organs to see which were vital, amputated and re-attached parts to other individuals, or sewed twins together and worse, did you?
(Not trying to sound insulting, sorry if I am, but I had to research this shortly ago and I couldn't eat for a day or two afterwords - I tend to be very short on this subject)

@1916
Define Nazi. Schindler was a Nazi. When I say most were not Nazi's I mean to say that while most would have believed in their own supperiority (especially pre-1944) and been members of the Nazi party, but many did not believe in the killing of Jews - some of which they had known as children. Infact even a large number of Totenkopf did not believe in what they were doing, but understand a soldier follows orders. Does that make them any less guilty of their sins? No. It would be better to die than to kill in the name of another man. However, I think it is biggoted how many men are portrayed, which will probably get me flak. But honestly, research how many ended up shooting themselves, read from Jewish witness acounts about how many where very shaken from what they were doing. Yes there were many who were sadistic, many who believed what they were doing was right, and far to many that enjoyed their work. However to demonize them all is unfair because far more than that were simply soldiers doing what a soldier does - follow orders (not to mention for them to go against that would put their families in graves.) So yes, the acts of the few disgrace the many and that infuriates me. War is hell for both sides and I feel that perhaps only half fit what I'm describing, but were it even one he would deserve to have his honor restored to him.

I am still proud to be German - and in my opinion if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.

[Abraham]

Well, well, well!
:hmm:

[1916]

DMH, I understand where you are coming from. I've known the conditions that Mengel was working in. I know all about what he did. I am familiar with him. I was leaing towards the matters like how long a human could hold their breath under water. Things like that could have been done under controlled conditions, where no one would die. I know he did many other cruel and inhuman things, and that he has received his eternal judgement for what he has done. The next time I refer to "controlled conditions" alongside his name, please note that I am refering to the ones that could be non-lethal.

I also understand that the term "nazi" is a legit political party. It does not involve the killing of anyone. I am unclear about wether or not it preaches racial hatred, but the nazis we saw were of Hitler's creation. He made the nazi party what he wanted it to be, not the textbook definition. And because of that, what we see in dicitionaries now is what he created. Not the "National Socialist" (even when it has nothing to do with WWII) party that it really was a term for. I also understand that when a typical person sees the word, they get a specific picture, so I use the term loosely. Those of us who know alot about the topic know the fine details. I will use it in it's technical term, but then I will end up explaining myself as to why I call certain people nazis and not others. When I used it in my previous post, I meant to refer to the death's head regiments. Also, if you want a really interesting read, look up the nazi's (specifically Himmler) involvement with the occult and paranormal. VERY spooky stuff. But just know that I know very well what the term "nazi" really means and the whole national socialist party. It applies to more than one period of history, but that's ancient history though and is a whole other discussion. Needless to say, the whole swastika thing was not original, and the ancient history part applies to the hardcore human murdering monsters. They took lessons from other (and specifically another) place.

EDIT : Good discussion btw. Glad to see it is a educated discussion rather than a flame war.

[Damo1977]

Psychologicaly it's the same as a frog in a pot of water, if you turn the heat up slowly it will not notice until it's far too late.

how France and other UN nations were treating German's like poo poo.

Hitler took a nation that was raped and humiliated by the French

:hmm: Glad I ain't French or a frog!

Well some of the ideas that were thrown around by Allied leaders in regards to German after WW2, casturate the men, destroy there industry totally and make them an agricutural country and there was one other, this was so Germany would die, and never waged war again. Yet Mr Winston Churchill, (that cigar smoking alcoholic ;) said that 'We cant be like the Nazi's'. Anyhow I will get me books soon and quote it.

[Dead Mans Hand]

Coincidently I am also glad I am not a French frog too. (Unless you haven't heard that term, then cest la vie.)

Don't get me started on that bastard Churchill either. You do realize he had U-Boat capatains tried for violating international law by firing on merchant vessels, even though he was the milk sop that started putting deck guns on merchant vessels. Not to mentioned he was a large part of the reason Eugenics was a major movement in England - the same movement that the Nazi "scientists" and government based their arguements on, he helped start. (Don't hear that on the news reels now do ya?) He was a two faced bastard, some will say "But he was tough in the face of war!!" - all I have to say to that is when there's a body of water, large Royal Fleet, and a firm bunker between you and the enemy you best damn well puff that cigar and put on a brave face.

In short, he was far from the greatness of Paton, one of the last Generals to actually lead his men.

[Abraham]

@ Dead Mans Hand:
We seem to differ on really any subject you bring up... and - reading your postings - I'm glad we do!
For me Winston Churchill showed more leadership than any other leader (or Führer) during WW II. Although he was in my opinion militarily incompetent, he certainly was a political genius, probably the greatest Briton of all time. During the thirties he constantly warned agains the rise of Nazism in Germany. He gave the Brits hope after the Fall of France and changed a hesistant and divided nation into a nation determined to fight it out, even till the bitter end if necessairy. He carried a heavy responsability and can be criticised for many wrong decisions, but he certainly stood on the right side of History. He inspired his own people as well as many in German-occupied Europe - including my parents - with his beautiful speeches. Even today I find them impressive, even emotionally moving, to listen to, especially those famous nine lines from his speech when Britain stood all alone after the Fall of France, in which he defined exactly what World War II was really about.
What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over.
I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin.
Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation.
Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our empire.
The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us.
Hitler knows that he will have to break us on this island or lose the war.
If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world move forward into broad, sunlit uplands.
But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.
Let us, therefore, brace ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say: 'this was their finest hour.'Almost prophetic words, etched in History. Churchill even warned for perverted science (Mengele proved him right!). This was the definition of a Moral War between the Good side and the Evil side. Time has been unable to dilute anything from what he has said.
Compare that with the hateful rubbish that Hitler customary threw up and it is cristal clear where both men stood intellectually and morally in World War II.

By the way: your qualification criterion for the leader of a nation is faulty. A political leader is not supposed to lead a battle but to lead a country. Happily enough Hitler preferred the former more than the latter - from his bunker of course!

And, Dead Mans Hand, I am still stunned by this remark you made:... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.I find it gratuit - almost to the offensive - to make such a qualification about Jews who were manipulated, mentally tortured and blackmailed by the Nazi's in a hopeless position, where they had only one choice left, the one between worse and worst. Many of them were so desperate that they committed suicide. The few that survived were often traumatised for life.
You are a stern and unforgiving judge from your comfortable seat, Dead Mans Hand! Personally, I put the blame squarely on the Nazi's, who enjoyed manipulating Jews - and others - into such desperate positions.
Aren't the 'truest cowards' - as you call them - really the ones that force defensless people into immoral choices at gunpoint, like make parents chose between the life of their oldest or youngest child, to name but one exemple?
In other words: the Nazi's, of which - as I don't need to remind you - there were millions in the Third Reich.
:down:

[kiwi_2005]

if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.

They were the Rabbi's they had NO choice, if they didn't do it, the next in line would have to. Alot of Rabbi's commited sucide cos they would be given the task of having to choose 5000 jews which the gestapo had just ordered to be "resettled" but was really to be gassed. Alot of Rabbi's did what the nazis asked them too but also chose to go with the choosen, of course the gastapo happily agreed to there request to go along. They the Rabbis were put in a position where if they didn't do it (which some refuse too) then the nazis would then have an excuse to go on the rampage and choose 5000 themselves plus shoot an extra 1000 because the rabbi refused. According to the book im reading the Jews never blamed the rabbi that had to make these choices. They knew the rabbi had a heavy task on his shoulders to follow.

Now i just read, that in one of the death camps, all the Jewess hair that was cut off before they would go into the gas chamber was sent off to germany to be use for U-boat sailors! It never states what the hair was use for, but im guessing to make warm coats for the uboat men?

[Abraham]

Undressing and shaving before gassing was Standard Operating Procedure in death camps. This was done by - often Jewish - slaves, called Sonderkommando's (Special Commands) who also had to sort the clothes, remove valuables from then, empty and clean the gas chambers as fast as possible, extract gold teeth from the corpses after the gassing and transport the dead bodies to the ovens. As a 'reward' they were not executed (immediately). Saved the Germans valuable manpower...
These are the people about which... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal...Judge for yourselves...

Long human hair was used - amoungst many other purposes - to pressureproof the fittings of lenses in periscopes.

[kiwi_2005]

Long human hair was used - amoungst many other purposes - to pressureproof the fittings of lenses in periscopes.

Farout that is wicked. i also read the jews fat and skin were use to make lampshades. Beats me how the nazis believed that they were the master race, if ever there were to be a master race they wouldn't be barbaric! Anyway a master race doesn't exist , i think the closest would be the Jews themselves cos they are the choosen ones, maybe in a biblical sense this was satans way of proving that he is the king of lies.

I have read alot in this book, about the sondercommando, yes may be some of them tried to save themselves, but those that didn't died anyway, so what choice in that situation do you have.

[Dead Mans Hand]

So both of you argue from the stand point that they had no option?

Tell me something then: Would you kill your own grandmother or daughter to save yourself? Many of these "sonderkommandos" did just that. They were volunteers that helped identify, control, and kill their own people.

They were and still are cowards beyond compare, evil, and disgusting individuals. If you know any that are still alive, please relate that message to them.

**Edit: You also left out a few other responsablities they had, such as registering inmates, taking roll, disciplinary actions (hint: These weren't tongue lashings mind you), and God knows what else.

[Abraham]

So both of you argue from the stand point that they had no option?So you argue from the point those poor people had a choice, other then disappearing in the "showers" themselves? Could you point out what choice they had, Dead Mans Hand? I would really like to know. And were they according to you in a position to express their free will? Please don't hesistate to elaborate...
The crime here was - again - done by the Nazi's; manipulating, blackmailing and threatening people into a position of impossible choices.
Tell me something then: Would you kill your own grandmother or daughter to save yourself?That was not the real choice. The real choice was: would you press your family members in a gass chamber, knowing that they would be gassed anyway, if you kept a ray of hope for the future. Some did, some couldn't and commited suicide or were shot. Your comments please! Many of these "sonderkommandos" did just that.Obviously you have no intimate knowledge of the subject. The Sonderkommando's were forced to do what I described in my posting above. The Nazi's themselves dropped the Zyklon B cristals through the vents of the 'showers'. I have never in my whole life read anywhere that the actual gassing was done by Jews and I am damn sure about this. It seems as if you make the victims of the Third Reich the most responsable for the Nazi-atrocities...They were volunteers that helped identify, control, and kill their own people.How dare you judge these people from your comfortable position and call them 'volonteers'! They were caught in countries all over Europe by the Nazi's; all there belongings were confiscated; they were then transported - often in cattle railroad cars on a multiple-day voyage to a concentration or death camp, they had gone through a selection in which 60-90% was sent to the gas chambers within an hour or so after arrival. Their families were thorne apart, they were completely traumatised and then were tatooed and had to worke as like slaves on a disgusting job at gunpoint... and you call them volonteers?
Your reaction please!
They were and still are cowards beyond compare, evil, and disgusting individuals. If you know any that are still alive, please relate that message to them.You are talking about the victims of the Nazi system the way I talk about the Nazi's who caught those victims: cowards, evil and disgusting individuals!
I am getting to have a serious problem with your opinion on this subject as well as your glorification of the Waffen-SS. I really don't like to say this, but you are either extremely bad informed about the facts and extremely naive, or extremely anti-Semitic and extremely pro Nazi. I sincerely hope for you that you are just bad informed or naive...
**Edit: You also left out a few other responsablities they had, such as registering inmates, taking roll, disciplinary actions (hint: These weren't tongue lashings mind you), and God knows what else.You are completely wrong. That was not done by Sonderkommando's but by the KaPo's (camp police), selected by the Nazi's from - often - criminals, compared to political prisoners (Communists and resistance fighters), sexual prisoners (homo's & prostitutes) and Jews or Gypsies. These individuals acted often barbaric, following the instruction of the SS (and to please these). And did some Jews behave bad in the camps? You bet, they are just like normal human beings, you know. Out of their free will? C'mon, in a concentration camp-like environment the only ones with a free choice were the ones with the guns, that ran the camps. In other words the Nazi's, who were responsable for the system of terror and destruction anyway...
Nazi's = a dispicable lot of individuals missing some essential human values.
:down:

[Dead Mans Hand]

@Abraham
My reaction to your post is my same stance of:
It is better to die a man than to sell out your own people, the sonderkommados you sympathize with were not men enough to maintain themselves, uphold their beliefs, and ulitmately that inability to keep their values makes them cowards and lesser men than the people whom the worked for. I agree the Nazi's were bad, but realize these men were their bitches. I will again state they are worthless and disgusting examples of men (in reference to the Jews who worked with Nazi's) and the excuse of sparing themselves is pathetic.

My account is probably more accurate than you want to admit. I think you should probably question my perspective, as I question yours. Anyone who would kill women and children to spare themselves are deserving of worse than death - and I wonder as you attack the SS, have you ever met any Germans that lived it? That were pressed into service? Or are you satisfied with the popular approach of all Germans being evil? I seriously hope you don't play Silent Hunter. Because every time you insult the SS in the standard overbroad manner you are insulting the Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe, Wermacht, etc. Because they were all "Nazis" too by definition - and you seem unconcerned with what they believed in their hearts.

**Note: Atleast the Nazi's in the camps were acting on their own beliefs and more honorably their victims died by theirs. The sonderkommandos however sold their souls for their own sakes.

[Abraham]

@Abraham
My reaction to your post is my same stance of:
It is better to die a man than to sell out your own people, the sonderkommados you sympathize with were not men enough to maintain themselves, uphold their beliefs, and ulitmately that inability to keep their values makes them cowards and lesser men than the people whom the worked for. I agree the Nazi's were bad, but realize these men were their bitches. I will again state they are worthless and disgusting examples of men (in reference to the Jews who worked with Nazi's) and the excuse of sparing themselves is pathetic.
I find the way you judge the 'Sonderkommando's', the Jews who were forced to clean the gass chambers etc., disgusting!
These were slaves, forced at gunpoint to do the dirty work that Nazi's didn't want to do themself. You call those victims of Nazi terror "the bitches" of the Nazi's! But on the other hand you are overflowing of understanding for the real butchers, the SS guards:However to demonize them all is unfair because far more than that were simply soldiers doing what a soldier does - follow orders (not to mention for them to go against that would put their families in graves.) So yes, the acts of the few disgrace the many and that infuriates me.
It "infuriates" you to "demonize" the SS concentration camp guards? Well, it infuriates me even more that you demonize the victims! That you dare to say - missing my sarcasm I do not blame the Jews for starting the Holocaust, there ... and dare to continue that... there was however at the time factors that made the Nazi's initial approach of deportation very appealing.Would you please explain why a purely arbitrarely, discriminatory and inhumane measure, like deporting all the Jews from Germany without any form of justification is appealing, Dead Mans Hand? Does it 'clean up' the country in your view?

Very revealing is a comparison between your judgement of the victims, like the Jewish Sonderkommandos:They were and still are cowards beyond compare, evil, and disgusting individuals. If you know any that are still alive, please relate that message to them.and the perpetrators of the Holocaust, the Nazi's:You must look at the entire picture and perhaps gain a sad understanding for those who were helpless to stop it and thus turned a blind eye.
:down:
My account is probably more accurate than you want to admit. I think you should probably question my perspective, as I question yours.I am an amateur historian and always happy to learn about new facts or new perspectives. I also make sure that I have sources for my statements. Those sources may be valid or not, but up till now you haven't come up with a shred of evidence that makes me doubt the facts as I presented them. You just avoid direct answers to direct questions and keep on glorifying the SS and the Nazi's in general - after a single obligatory and political 'correct' remark (=excuse) that the Nazi's were wrong.
And yes, I certainly question your perspective, which seems to me that of an anti-Semite and neo-Nazi.

Anyone who would kill women and children to spare themselves are deserving of worse than death - and I wonder as you attack the SS, have you ever met any Germans that lived it? That were pressed into service?I find this a very funny line of thinking. First of all, any normal person would delete "to spare themselves" from that statement, but you need it in order to make it reflect upon the Jewish slaves instead of upon the SS. Then you start defending the SS by stating that (some/all?) "were pressed into service". So they had no free will and were forced to kill Jewish women and children, like you stated before: However to demonize them all is unfair because far more than that were simply soldiers doing what a soldier does - follow orders (not to mention for them to go against that would put their families in graves.)By your own logic the SS thus falls within your category of those who deserve "worse than death."
I won't argue with that...
:D
Or are you satisfied with the popular approach of all Germans being evil? I seriously hope you don't play Silent Hunter. Because every time you insult the SS in the standard overbroad manner you are insulting the Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe, Wermacht, etc. Because they were all "Nazis" too by definition - and you seem unconcerned with what they believed in their hearts.
Finally the cheap attack to discredit me and avoid nasty questions, that I've been waiting for so long.
I would ask you in return: "What makes you think I take what you call "the popular approach" of all Germans being evil? Did I ever suggest such a stupid thing?"
On the contrary, I always talk about the "Nazi's" instead of the "Germans". I admire the new German generation that - with a few exceptions - has completely broken with Nazism and are leading a truly democratic life in a free and rebuilt country. That generation has to carry this pitchblack part of the history of their country and don't deserve to carry an extra burden of being steriotyped as Nazi's, while not having the slightest affiliation with Nazi ideology.
I think that opinions like yours really do more damage to the image of Germany...

And yes, I will keep characterising - you call it "insulting" - the SS as a sorry lot of failed human beings.
And no, I am not insulting the other contemporary German armed forces at the same time.
And yes, I do play Silent Hunter, because in my view you don't have to be a (neo) Nazi to enjoy an U Boot simulation.
And no, I don't see reason to change my avatar...

[M.Mira]

I am Jewish, to make that point clear from the beginning.
And I am extremely shocked by the postings of Dead Mans Hand and his reactions to the questions of Abraham.
How dares somebody to write all this Nazi-crap, especially since all the Nazi crimes became public knowledge after WW II and are well recorded.
Where did Dead Mans Hand get his ideas and information? From Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'?
I am curious to know a little bit more of his background. Perhaps his judgement is influenced because his (grand)father was in the SS or his (grand)parents were Nazi's?
:down:

[Dead Mans Hand]

@Abraham

You realize that at first the "Sonderkommandos" policed the ghettos, reported violations (if not bribed) that included smugling contraband (food) into other Jews, you also realize that they at first were volunteers? They thought to take advantage of their own people's mysery. And yes, I still think it would be a far better to die with honor than without. Men do that, you know?

@Abraham
By the way, you talk about different perspectives but only look at it from yours. The camp guards did not see what they were doing as evil, but as protecting their nation. Remember, if you are actually a historian of sorts, that victors define who is the hero and who is the villan.

@Abraham
I despise all victims. To be victomized, you must allow yourself to be victomized. They allowed their weapons to be taken and lost their ability to fight. I am not saying any victim deserves what happens to them - but everyone has choices. Even if that choice is to be gunned down in the streets or die in a camp. I apply that to all "victims" it's easy to live as a man, harder to die as one. I view being a victim as being weak.

@Abraham
You must look at the entire picture and perhaps gain a sad understanding for those who were helpless to stop it and thus turned a blind eye.
I was refering to German citizens, not the SS.

@Abraham
You question my perspective. That's fine, but I assure you I am not a Nazi or neo-Nazi. It's more accurately moral relativity, in that morals are objective and self-defined, I do not believe you can judge anyone morally. However ethics are more concrete, which is to say the men that perpetrated this sometimes sincerely believed they were doing what was right. In which case, they did exactly what they believed - that whether good or evil, is honorable. Men that die as slaves or give up their beliefs without a fight are not honorable. I am not fit to judge anyone's beliefs, nor are you.
By the way, tracing my family back to Germany when our patriarch left in the early 1700's it's very possible that given his last name (before English conversion) Wetztein was Jewish. Also believe it or not I have Jewish friends. So I would ask, even though you may not agree with my views - do not refer to me as a Nazi again.

@Abraham
The SS men did what they were told, since they were soldiers that was their obligation, in my opinion they acted ethicaly. Morals are irrelevant.

@Abraham
And no, I think you do not have the strength of character to admit the SS were perfect soldiers.
And yes, I think war is hell and you cannot judge involved men as you do civilians
And no, I do not respect the victims as they failed themselves and lost their honor.
And yes, I find your stance of all SS were bad as hypocritical, because the Kriegsmarine were comprised entirely of members of the Nazi party, yet you play a game where you assume that role. What about the innocent sailors that sank into the sea? Why do you not weap for them as you do others?

[Bellman]

At a time when Germany launches new submarines would it not be showing some respect to them
and in other directions to end this crap now ? :o :stare: :nope: :yep:

[Kissaki]

The Rape of Nanking (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140277447/qid=1127748472/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4161124-6034416?v=glance&s=books), by Iris Chang. :cry:

Reading through the first posts, I felt a strong urge to say a thing or two about source criticism, and this is the very book I was going to use as an example of bad literature. I've got to run, but I'll expound on this - and more of the thread - later.

[Bellman]

Kissa' I've got to run, but I'll expound on this

Cant wait Mr Student Teacher. Yawns. :zzz: See other thread - ''THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!" :dead:

Please favour us with your critique - your theory of criticism. Homework ?

[Kissaki]

Kissa' I've got to run, but I'll expound on this

Cant wait Mr Student Teacher. Yawns. :zzz: See other thread - ''THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!" :dead:

Please favour us with your critique - your theory of criticism. Homework ?

I'm sorry, you'd rather believe in journalism?

The main benefit of a university education is knowing which books to read - and how to read them.


Edit: At least you took the time to read my profile, which shows more interest than you care to admit.

[Kissaki]

Anyway, a few pointers why Chang's book is little more than propaganda (the more astute of you may notice I refer to her in the present tense - yes, I know that she's dead):

-She stereotypes not just the Japanese soldier, or the Japanese people, but the entire history of Japan, as if the Sengoku jidai extended from earliest recorded history to present day.
-She uses the biggest possible estimate for the number killed (~300 000, according to the Chinese Communist Party), and to my recollection doesn't even mention the other (and more credible) estimates.
-She makes good use of hear-say, and the sources she does use, she uses indiscriminately. Frankly, sometimes I suspect her of making things up.
-She makes use of photographs which have later been determined to be fakes. She was in all likelihood unaware of this, but it doesn't do much for credibility.


When history records a horrible event, there will inevitably be several versions around. There will be those who blow things way out of proportion to serve their agenda, and there will be those who tone it down to serve theirs. The truth will be somewhere inbetween. The Chinese Communist Party, for instance, now claim that a grand total of 35 million Chinese were murdered by the Japanese - which is a dramatic increase from their first estimate of 10 million in the '50s. The number has gradually increased since then (inflated, no doubt, with countless victims of the Communist regime). The CCP's figures are recognized by the CCP, and the CCP alone. Considering their habit of adding to the numbers every decade or so, I would hardly view them as a reliable source.

As for Nanking, the numbers presented at the Tokyo War Crimes trials do not exceed 142 000 (though I agree that's bad enough), and the ones presented in the local (Nanking) war crimes trial immediately after the war came to roughly 190 000.

Why is it that the worst, most horrible and unbelievable version of a story is the one easiest to believe? Edward O. Wilson put it best, I believe: "In a deeply tribal way, we love our monsters."

[Bellman]

Its good of you to give us pointers oh Sensei - perhaps you will share with us your hand-out reading list.

The psychology and morbidity of fascism remains an interesting area of enquirey and your 'claimed' profile
is only relevant for me as a source of amusement - showing an interest in music and swords. Wow. :roll:
Perhaps Heydrich's may have been identical. But then posturing is/was an integral part of the fascist credo. :lol:

[Kissaki]

Just a couple of points :

I read a alittle about the subject, where Hitler got his hatred. It is rumored that he had Jewish blood himself and was so harsh on them because he felt that he had to hide it.


Was Hitler a Jew? Simple and full answer - no. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlerjew.html)


He was a brilliant artist (from what I read), but a Jewish student beat him to art school, and that was one of the many things that got him really ticked off. That seems VERY shallow and selfish to me. VERY bad character (which we would see 10 years later).


I have not come across any rave reviews of his works, quite the contrary: from all I've read, Hitler was a man of modest artistic talent, but still passing good. There's also more to it than the student who p!ssed him off at school: This student was a Jew from the same family that Wagner had personal grievances with - Wagner being Hitler's favourite composer and idol, he might've been influenced in the same direction for that reason. Besides, Wagner's fantastic works (they are fantastic, no denying it) in which the purity of the white race was central, had a great impact on the young Adolf. One cannot analyze Hitler without looking to Wagner.

[Kissaki]

Its good of you to give us pointers oh Sensei - perhaps you will share with us your hand-out reading list.

The psychology and morbidity of fascism remains an interesting area of enquirey and your 'claimed' profile
is only relevant for me as a source of amusement - showing an interest in music and swords. Wow. :roll:
Perhaps Heydrich's may have been identical. But then posturing is/was an integral part of the fascist credo. :lol:

I'm glad you're amused. Now you post something worthwhile.

[Bellman]

The benefit of your education and presumably your powers of observation and attention to detail in music
are not beeing demonstrated here - You miss the point - I called above for an end to this crap !

If you are unable to read throught some of the posts and come to the same conclusion thats your bag.

Please define what you mean by ''worthwhile'' In what ways are your contribution/s worthy ?

Explain how one can, or would want, to contribute anything to a discussion which many (not me personaly) will
most definitely consider offensive.

I do not to explain what I mean by **crap** :ping:

[Bellman]

Please explain what you mean by ''pissed -off'' in your last post.

I wonder whether this term may be appropriate to my reaction to your postings ? :rotfl:

[Kissaki]

The benefit of your education and presumably your powers of observation and attention to detail in music
are not beeing demonstrated here - You miss the point - I called above for an end to this crap !

If you are unable to read throught some of the posts and come to the same conclusion thats your bag.


Yes, you called for an end to this crap. Thing is, though, I didn't think it was "crap" - everybody were making their arguments in a mature manner, in spite of the highly flammable content of the thread. Things did not seem to be getting out of hand, so I thought it safe to contribute. I didn't mean it as a slight to you, or anything.


Please define what you mean by ''worthwhile'' In what ways are your contribution/s worthy ?


Information is worthwhile. Insults are not.


Explain how one can, or would want, to contribute anything to a discussion which many (not me personaly) will
most definitely consider offensive.


Then why did you get personal? A topic may be considered offensive, and what topic is completely free of controversy? That does not mean, however, that it can't be discussed rationally. As long as people remain polite and don't let their passions sweep them away, any argument made in earnest (however circumstantial or subjective) contributes to rational debate. That's how I feel about it, anyway.


I do not to explain what I mean by **crap** :ping:

You decided, for reasons unknown to me, to get personal right off the bat. And that's not nice.

[Kissaki]

Please explain what you mean by ''pissed -off'' in your last post.

I wonder whether this term may be appropriate to my reaction to your postings ? :rotfl:

Thought you wanted to stop this whole crap, or whatnot? But fine, I'll oblige. This is what I said:

"There's also more to it than the student who p!ssed him off at school"

I was referring to the fact that there was indeed a Jewish student who rubbed Hitler the wrong way, but that there was more to it than that. Was that what you wanted to know?

[Bellman]

I think you have demonstrated my point - I cannot add more. :ping:

[Dead Mans Hand]

@Bellman
First of all, Germans of today have/had nothing to do with the third Reich. All of Europe hides from it's past (it's illegal to own anything with a Swastika on it now, which has caused destruction of many war artifacts.) and that, IMHO is why neo-Nazism is starting to flare up, they have forgotten. But that is besides the point.

Let's sum it up really quickly, Bellman, I suppose you find this thread offensive. Fine, stop watching it. The only person trying to "flame" in here is you. I apologize if you don't like it, but thus far everything has been kept rather civil. If you want to respond to me, fine, but I unless you have valid input my corespondance with you is finished.

@Kissaki
I'll support everything you've said thus far - and I'm glad you've pointed out the fact that we can only view history through other's eyes and ultimately that means looking back our view is distorted.

I'll put it this way - numbers are disputable, but the horrors that the Japense army bore service too are not. However, again, they were following their code of beliefs and honor. Which included following orders, so while in our eyes they were wrong and evil, in theirs they were not. Kudos for being constructive.

[Bellman]

Dead Man -

You are probably from a generation that did not experience the war at first hand.

I opened my posting with an appeal for respect for Germany - not fascism.

If the snake of fascism rises again some of us will jump on its head again. Believe me !

I regret any heat injected by me - these things are subjective.

End of story - good night.

[Kissaki]

@Kissaki
I'll support everything you've said thus far - and I'm glad you've pointed out the fact that we can only view history through other's eyes and ultimately that means looking back our view is distorted.

I'll put it this way - numbers are disputable, but the horrors that the Japense army bore service too are not. However, again, they were following their code of beliefs and honor. Which included following orders, so while in our eyes they were wrong and evil, in theirs they were not. Kudos for being constructive.

Thanks, Dead Mans Hand. That's the point I was trying to make, too, that whether it was 35 million, 10 million or "just" one million doesn't change the fact that the atrocity took place. I've attracted heat before for "defending" the Nazies/Japanese Army in this manner, but I am doing nothing more than defending history. History is not served by painting the opposition to be as evil as one could possibly imagine. If we misinterpret history, even in this way, we increase the chance of repeating it. But I predict we will repeat it someday, anyway - it's only a matter of time, because we may learn from our own mistakes but rarely from those of our parents.

And absolutely, good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. That's a whole different discussion, but suffice it to say I don't believe in evil people. Evil acts, sure, but not people. The human mind is far too complex for such convenient labels.

[Kissaki]

Dead Man -

You are probably from a generation that did not experience the war at first hand.

I opened my posting with an appeal for respect for Germany - not fascism.

If the snake of fascism rises again some of us will jump on its head again. Believe me !

I regret any heat injected by me - these things are subjective.

End of story - good night.

Is that why you jumped on me - because you thought my comments were fascist somehow? If so, tell me how. If no, please tell me what you were upset about. :-?

[kiwi_2005]

Wow im still reading this book nearly to the end and i say again its been a real terror trip, everynight i read a few pages or chapter. Grim Grim Grim. When is something good going to happen. Then to my surprise i get to this bit where a German Artillery unit are been sent back to germany alot of them are diehard nazis, this unit reported to the british intelligence what they saw while heading back to germany on the trains. They were not SS men but German army with some of them nazi supporters. When the train stopped at Austwitz they got to see for the first time what really went on and they were totally shocked. Even the diehard nazis were pale faced they then discussed agmongst themselves what they would do about it, some wanted to raid the deathcamp and free the Jews. They came to the decision to inform britain what is going on and knew they would make an impression when the evidence was coming from germans.
They refused to listen to the threats of the SS guards and handed bread to the Jews in the carriages. The train driver told them to watch around 7pm the chimmys your smell the burning flesh, that night they did and decided to let the world know.

That is all thats mention, i wonder if britain ever aknowledge this every happening.

[Dead Mans Hand]

What book is this? I will have to look into it, sounds like an interesting read. As for if Britian did anything, I honestly doubt it, the Allies had an idea of what was going on, but no one was prepared for what they found. Bear in mind the first camps were found durring routine patrols, ergo mistakenly, by troops that were not equipped or prepared in anway to handle the horrors they found.

[kiwi_2005]

The Holocaust The Jewish Tragedy by Martin Gilbert.

900 pages of compete terror. Gives details on the murder/torture of Jews/poles/russians.

A hard book to stomach but a very good read at the same time. If that makes sense.

[Dead Mans Hand]

10-4: Most historical information in regards to wartime is rough on the heart but enriches the mind. Two things to keep in mind about the Nazi Holocaust: Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, but wisdom can be a great burden.

[kiwi_2005]

10-4: Most historical information in regards to wartime is rough on the heart but enriches the mind

Dead right about that. What wisdom i think ive learn from this book is my problems are just trivial compared to what these people went through.

[Abraham]

Thanks Kiwi_2005 for the book info.
I ordered it.

[Col7777]

The thing is, if the war had turned out different and the Axis won, then these SS guys you are talking about would be heros, and the Allies leaders would have been on trial and executed.

[August]

The thing is, if the war had turned out different and the Axis won, then these SS guys you are talking about would be heros, and the Allies leaders would have been on trial and executed.

And the world would have decended into darkness.

[Col7777]

I agree August,

I had an uncle who was shot along with his commanding officer by the SS, the 2 SS officers that did it were named by the local villagers after the war, not just for that but other murders too, they were both executed.
I managed to get the papers from the trial too.

Edited:

I remember also reading where a couple of SS soldiers were shot by persons unknown, they rounded up at random people from the village women included and shot them in a firing squad, the same village that named the SS officers after the war btw.

[Abraham]

You are probably referring to the actions of the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich" in Oradour, June 1944, where, after some Resistance-action in the neighborhood they slaughtered the whole village population (I think about 600 killed and one or two survivors).

Only shows how grateful we should be towards Churchill, who almost single-handed, sabotaged the British backchannel negotiations with Germany in June and August 1940 and braced the Britons for a long and bloody war against a murderous enemy...

[StdDev]

Only shows how grateful we should be towards Churchill, who almost single-handed, sabotaged the British backchannel negotiations with Germany in June and August 1940 and braced the Britons for a long and bloody war against a murderous enemy...

"sabotaged" has negative connotations.. I believe many people realized that appeasment of Hitler simply did not work (AKA Chamberlain).
It is quite obvious that Winston had "unconditional surrender" by Germany in mind from the very beginning! Listen! (http://204.115.170.104/mp3/radio/first_month_of_the_war.mp3)

[bradclark1]

You are probably referring to the actions of the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich" in Oradour, June 1944, where, after some Resistance-action in the neighborhood they slaughtered the whole village population (I think about 600 killed and one or two survivors).

The resistance had been hitting them constantly for days to slow them down from reaching Normandy.
Das Reich evidently had enough and rounded up all the men they could find and shot them.
They put all the women and children in the village church and blew it up.

[Abraham]

Only shows how grateful we should be towards Churchill, who almost single-handed, sabotaged the British backchannel negotiations with Germany in June and August 1940 and braced the Britons for a long and bloody war against a murderous enemy...
"sabotaged" has negative connotations.. Yes, he really sabotaged negotiations with Germany led by Lord Hamilton, the British Foreign Minister...
I was very interested to read that and are preparing a thread about Churchill's one man action in the summer of 1940 to fight till the bitter end... (if I find enough time to study enough sources).

You are probably referring to the actions of the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich" in Oradour, June 1944, where, after some Resistance-action in the neighborhood they slaughtered the whole village population (I think about 600 killed and one or two survivors).The resistance had been hitting them constantly for days to slow them down from reaching Normandy.
Das Reich evidently had enough and rounded up all the men they could find and shot them.
They put all the women and children in the village church and blew it up.Actually, they set fire to the church with a fire-bomb, then hurled hand grenades into it and machine gunned the women that tried to escape through the windows. A total of 648 civilians were killed. No Résistance action had been undertaken from Oradour-sur-Glane itself nor were weapons or munition ever found. The Waffen-SS acted most probably on false information...

[kiwi_2005]

Well is this bad luck or what! In one village, 3 jews were in hiding with the help of a polish farmer who went out of his way and dug a hole under his house deep enough to hold up to 10 jews. 3 lived in there right through the war or until the Red army liberated the town near the village. The jews came out of hiding, only to be met by the retreating germans and were shot!

Even when the russians liberated towns, alot of the townsfolk still hunted down jews and murdered them. How do you explain the bad omen or bad luck that was dreaded on the jewish race at that time. Even in peace time jews were still hunted down by nazis supporters.

What this book makes me asks everytime is why the Jewish race.

Those who are buying this book, near the end there is some good stories on the jews in camps fighting back. They know the red army is advancing and all the germans are bent on doing is exterminating as many jews as they can before the russians arrive. The sonder kommandos fight back with there bare hands against SS with machine guns,dogs etc, alot of heroism.

[Abraham]

... Those who are buying this book, near the end there is some good stories on the jews in camps fighting back. They know the red army is advancing and all the germans are bent on doing is exterminating as many jews as they can before the russians arrive. The sonder kommandos fight back with there bare hands against SS with machine guns,dogs etc, alot of heroism.Sssshhht!
Don't let Dead Mans Hand read that. He might start to adore the Jews and despise their poor victims, the SS!

[Kissaki]

"sabotaged" has negative connotations..

It does? Maybe it's because I'm from one of the countries that were occupied, but I have no trouble connecting the resistance with acts of sabotage, and I view those acts as good things.

The word "sabotage" itself is neutral to me, and whether it's good or bad depends on the situation. It's the thought that counts. :)

[Kissaki]

What this book makes me asks everytime is why the Jewish race.


Same reason as always. They're different. And if that wasn't bad enough, they're successful. The green monster is not easily killed.


Those who are buying this book, near the end there is some good stories on the jews in camps fighting back. They know the red army is advancing and all the germans are bent on doing is exterminating as many jews as they can before the russians arrive. The sonder kommandos fight back with there bare hands against SS with machine guns,dogs etc, alot of heroism.

Dogs?

[Abraham]

Those who are buying this book, near the end there is some good stories on the jews in camps fighting back. They know the red army is advancing and all the germans are bent on doing is exterminating as many jews as they can before the russians arrive. The sonder kommandos fight back with there bare hands against SS with machine guns,dogs etc, alot of heroism.

Dogs?
Sure! the Nazi's used dogs - mostly German Shepards- to guard their victims.

[Kissaki]

Those who are buying this book, near the end there is some good stories on the jews in camps fighting back. They know the red army is advancing and all the germans are bent on doing is exterminating as many jews as they can before the russians arrive. The sonder kommandos fight back with there bare hands against SS with machine guns,dogs etc, alot of heroism.

Dogs?
Sure! the Nazi's used dogs - mostly German Shepards- to guard their victims.

Yes, I know, hence my puzzlement. These KZ camp prisoners managed to somehow train the dogs against their masters?

[kiwi_2005]

Sure! the Nazi's used dogs - mostly German Shepards- to guard their victims.

They also used dogs to rip apart the jews/poles prisoners. Theres one story where a certain SS had a favourite hobbie with his dog, never mentioned what type of dog it was but the writer says they were large black dogs. So im suspecting they are Rottwhielers. Anyway this SS scum trained his dog to bite the balls of his victims, he use to be so amused from it and go up to the victim and go "Aww are you alright did my dog bite you, here let me help, only to let his dog attack him again.

They use to for fun let the dogs loose on children. one SS dog didn't attack his victim instead is sat and wagged its tail as if he wanted to play, so the SS beat the dog.

[kiwi_2005]

Yes, I know, hence my puzzlement. These KZ camp prisoners managed to somehow train the dogs against their masters?

No i explained it wrong, the Kommandos went up against SS with there bare hands, they could only attack with there fists they had no weapons there is mention that they picked up rocks and threw them at them.. The SS had machine guns and dogs to back them up.

[Kissaki]

Yes, I know, hence my puzzlement. These KZ camp prisoners managed to somehow train the dogs against their masters?

No i explained it wrong, the Kommandos went up against SS with there bare hands, they could only attack with there fists they had no weapons there is mention that they picked up rocks and threw them at them.. The SS had machine guns and dogs to back them up.

Ah! I see. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Bellman]

kiwi_2005 wrote:What this book makes me asks everytime is why the Jewish race.

Kissaki wrote: And if that wasn't bad enough, they're successful. The green monster is not easily killed.

It is very difficult to find a rationale for the irrational but, I have often wondered to what extent the economic
and social conditions existing after the first WW contributed to an expotential growth in existing often latent
anti-jewish prejudice. The Depression, hyper inflation and massive unemployment drove millions into the hands
of the money-lenders and pawnbrokers. Landlords pressed heavily to regain unpaid rents. Many of these lenders
and landlords were Jews, or importantly perceived to be Jews. Did not both Hitler and Himmler ' appear to have
superficial Jewish appearance characteristics ?

So we have proud men returning from war and struggling to make bread. Going 'cap-in hand' and
'begging' to 'lenders and landlords.' Whatever race those lenders were they would have been hated, villified
and castigated. It must be said, I'm afraid that inhibitions about the display of wealth were not prevalent
in the 20s and 30s and one has to question the lack of care in ostentatiously displaying wealth
Gold jewellry and fur coats etc.)

Can we see here partly the misguided motive for the compulsory acquisition of Jewish property and more horrificaly
the recycling of gold teeth etc. Did the ''Green Monster '' think it was ' grabbing-back '?

[kiwi_2005]

Found a new nazi group in this book. Well first time ive heard of them: The Fascist Nyilas. MEAN bastards. And introducing the devil himself Dr Mengele in my words the Grim Reaper. But i wont go into detail because im only going to spoil it for those that have ordered this book.

[Kissaki]

kiwi_2005 wrote:What this book makes me asks everytime is why the Jewish race.

Kissaki wrote: And if that wasn't bad enough, they're successful. The green monster is not easily killed.

It is very difficult to find a rationale for the irrational but, I have often wondered to what extent the economic
and social conditions existing after the first WW contributed to an expotential growth in existing often latent
anti-jewish prejudice. The Depression, hyper inflation and massive unemployment drove millions into the hands
of the money-lenders and pawnbrokers. Landlords pressed heavily to regain unpaid rents. Many of these lenders
and landlords were Jews, or importantly perceived to be Jews.


I think this is an important point - perceived to be Jews. I don't know the statistics, but even in pre-war Norway there was a tendency to call a particularly shrewed merchant a "Jew". In a particularly capitalist country that might be perceived as a good thing, but Norwegians have always had a semi-communist mentality. Here you don't flaunt your riches, and although we are concerned about our own profit, it's bad taste not to be humble about it.


Did not both Hitler and Himmler ' appear to have
superficial Jewish appearance characteristics ?


Not to my knowledge. I know that there were rumours and such regarding Hitler's allegedly "dubious" heritage, but these appeared after the war.


So we have proud men returning from war and struggling to make bread. Going 'cap-in hand' and
'begging' to 'lenders and landlords.' Whatever race those lenders were they would have been hated, villified
and castigated.


Indeed, but the Jews were always associated with money-lending, profiteering roles. So I'm afraid that whomever the real money-lenders were, the Jews would probably still be blamed for a lot of it. It would certainly be easy for a cunning public speaker to sway the public in that direction.


Can we see here partly the misguided motive for the compulsory acquisition of Jewish property and more horrificaly
the recycling of gold teeth etc. Did the ''Green Monster '' think it was ' grabbing-back '?

Well, that's how the Nazies justified their actions. They didn't persecute Jews because they wanted to be evil - everybody wants to be on the side of good, and if we do bad things (by force or will), we will always find some rationale to convince ourselves it was necessary and right. We all believe what we want to believe.

[kiwi_2005]

The Nazi obsession that Jews were not human beings, that they must be made to suffer. This hatred of the Jews', Hugo Gryn, a survivor of the death marches, has commented, was the one fixed function of the Nazi ideology.

If i can depending on how much we can type on one message i will type in a story from this book about 5 jews in Block 5 in the concentration camp of Mauthausen. Asked by the SS guard they must all die by Dec 25th and to choose who shall be first. Witness by a british prisoner. A pretty moving story.

[Kissaki]

The Nazi obsession that Jews were not human beings, that they must be made to suffer. This hatred of the Jews', Hugo Gryn, a survivor of the death marches, has commented, was the one fixed function of the Nazi ideology.


Hardly an unbiased source. The idea was to get rid of the Jews, not to make them suffer (although some took great pleasure in doing so). The Jews were compared with plagues such as rats, and whereas it was acknowledged that even a rat had a right to live, it was a battle for survival. If they didn't do something drastic about the "Jewish problem", the "purer" races would disappear - according to their ideology. At first they tried to get the Jews out - then they found it much more practical to put them in camps, have them work for nothing and eventually kill them. The suffering was a product of not caring for their comfort or safety, plus sadism among some of the guards. But there was nothing in the ideology itself to the effect that anyone should be made to suffer.

[August]

There is a certain amount of latent racisim in all cultures. The nazis, in order to consolidate their power needed an enemy it could blame for peoples troubles. The Jews were simply the most convenient target.

The creation of an enemy to unite a people against is a common tactic found throughout human history and is used by those seeking to create or maintain power, one that provides justification all kinds of things from huge and powerful bureaucracies to armies to the supression of opposition.

For depression era Germany, and this is all purely situational here, what better enemy could the nazis have picked for the purpose than one which plays upon the particular flavor of racism most often found in those they wish to rule? An enemy that's not only internal but external as well, thus magnifying the supposed threat. An enemy whose love for their country and whose very respect for law and order makes them ill equipped to mount an effective resistance. And lets not forget an enemy that has significant assets to sieze which can be used to consolidate and increase power.

[kiwi_2005]

The suffering was a product of not caring for their comfort or safety, plus sadism among some of the guards. But there was nothing in the ideology itself to the effect that anyone should be made to suffer.
So your saying a real survivor of the Nazi camps 'Hugo Gryn' Got it wrong???

[kiwi_2005]

THE FATE OF 7 JEWS IN BLOCK 5 OF MAUTHAUSEN CONCENTRATION CAMP. FROM THE BOOK THE HOLOCAUST: THE JEWISH TRAGEDY. TOLD BY A BRITISH PRISONER OF WAR LIEUTENANT-COMMANDER PAT O'LEARY

In the barracks at the concentration camp of Mauthausen, on the Danube, a British prisoner-of-war, Lieutenant-Commander Pat O'Leary who had been accused of being a British spy, found himself assigned as the cleaner of Block 5. The Kapo, or overseer, of the block was a German chosen for his brutality: a merchant seaman before the war, he had murdered his mother. He was, O'Leary later recalled, 'over six feet tall and the epitome of brute force.
The only occupants of Block 5 were seven Jews. Fifteen years later,
O'Leary told their story to Vincent Brome, who recorded it as follows:

With no other purpose than brutal destruction the SS had said that all seven must die by Christmas. But the emaciated skeletons were still dragged out every morning to work in the stone quarries. Silent, drooping, they set off, some with tears in there eyes, some talking to themselves, some with the furitive look of hunted animals. The Kapo had put it to them bluntly: 'You must all die by Christmas. You had better choose amongst yourselves who goes first. When no one volunteered for death in the first week, he addressed them again. 'If you don't choose, I will.'
The following day, somewhere out in the stone quarries, while seven skeletons struggled to move stones weighing more than they themselves did, with heavy snow soaking their thin garments and tongues sucking the snow to quench their thirsts, the Kapo suddenly leapt on one man, dragged him down, and as his screams echoed round the quarry, beat out his brains with a pick-axe.
That evening the remaining six crowded round Pat. News of a possible Allied invasion had swept across Europe and the mysterious drumming of intelligence had carried the message into the heart of Mauthausen. Was it possible that the invasion would begin soon, and once begun would break through swiftly? Was there, possibly, the hope that...or if not...?
Could they at least believe that the bombing raids might scare the SS or the Kapo into relaxing their sentence? Had they any hope if they hung on, tried to evade the death by pick-axe? Was there any point in struggling? Pat spoke very carefully. Many things were possible. Hope sprang indestructibly for those about to die, and he did not wish to destroy a hope which might miraculously realize itself. They seemed to feel better after he had spoken.
In the second week there were still no volunteers for death. The ragged file of scarcely human men, who seemed tall because they were paper-thin, whose eyes were large in sunken faces, whose voices were sometimes whispers from weakness, staggered out into the ice-cold dawn, but no one volunteered to die.
Two amongst them were father and son, a boy of nineteen, frequently in tears, and the father aged forty-five, who looked seventy. He was a jewish tailor who had deliberately with-drawn from political life of any kind to remain completely innocent, but he was a Jew and that was enough. The son had hardly begun adult life and if he possessed any coherent views of the world they were scarcely worth exterminating. They stayed together as much as possible, sleeping next to one another, and sometimes, far into the night, Pat heard the old Jew's slow, melancholy voice trying to soothe his son's fears. Or they talked to Pat and occasionally the great owl-like eyes enlarged in the thin faces, stared at Pat as though he had it in his power to save them, and would not save
them. Always Pat encouraged them, helped them in their illnesses, tried to add scraps in their food; But what they needed even more than food was some re-affirmation of their right to live, and several times the old man turned away, tears in his eyes, and shambled back to his stinking bunk, while Pat cursed his powerlessness.

At the end of November the Kapo spoke to them again. 'You're not dying quick enough. Its easy to do it. You can walk out in front of the wire and get machine-gunned. Or you can run into the wire. You frizzle quick then. But get a move on time's getting short.'
No one died the next day; but on the following night when they returned from the quarry one of their number was again missing, and crowded round Pat, five Jews in terrible fear spoke of the cries they had heard. On the hundred steps which lead down into the quarry, the berserk Kapo had torn another emaciated body to pieces with his pick-axe. There followed the same questions about the British, the Allies, the hope of an armistice before the year was out; but the Jewish tailor and his son were fatalistic now and the father said to Pat: 'We may walk into the wire tomorrow.' It
was clean and simple. The flash which shrivelled life was better than a long death by mutilation and starvation.
Three days later there were still five Jews, each no longer interested in the fate of the others, and all fighting desperately with the cunning of despair to remain alive.
By the beginning of December the snow was very deep, the winds icy, and the five Jews could not sleep very much because of the cold. One day in the second week in December another man did not return from the quarry. And on the 15th, Pat heard the Jewish tailor say to his son, 'There's no hope. We had better die.' The boy burst into tears. The tailor said again to Pat the next day. 'We shall walk into the wire'. But they did not.
December 18 came and still the four Jews remained in a state of resembling life. Still Pat tried to help them. Encouragement seemed the last indignity when hope had so long died, but Pat talked to them and sometimes they seemed stronger afterwards. Sometimes, too, he looked down at his own fast-wasting body and knew that he could not continue losing weight himself at such a rate without collapse. Originally he had weighed 160 Ib. Now he was 90 Ib and still losing weight. His face had yellowed, his absurd cotton clothes hung on bones, a sense of deep lethargy very easily overtook him, and hunger pains sometimes brought him awake in the night as though a knife had entered his bowels. He drank more and more water. Everyone drank and drank.
Still he wondered why he remained alive, why they had not shot him, why the fate reserved for the Jews was not his also. If espionage against the religion of Nazism was a crime too simple to redeem by sudden death, this expiation, this long-drawn-out death by hardship and starvation was the kind of penance paid only for the most mortal sin; but why should he still be allowed hope while the Jews had none?

In the early morning of December 23 he began to clean the bunks of Block 5. Suddenly he saw the Jewish tailor leading his son gently by the hand towards the door. The boy sobbed and there were tears in the old man's eyes. Outside, with clumsy, fumbling steps, the old man began running, his arm around the boy. They could not run properly. They had not the strength. But they stumbled hopelessly towards the margin, and the shots which Pat expected did not come. They did not run straight and clean into the electrified wire. They blundered into it, and Pat felt the great blue flash as if it had seared his own body. And there on the ground were the two twitching bodies, entwined with one another, and presently still. It was very silent and empty in the block that evening. The two remaining Jews were cowering animals. One shivered continuously. Tomorrow was the 24th and one must die. Neither spoke, and when Pat went to them and used whatever words he could find to hold their broken minds together, they stared back mutely.
The dawn was cold grey and misty. They could hardly walk as they left for the stone quarry, but one distorted drive remained: nothing mattered but the will to survived for another single day. The man who came back was a ghost, with fixed eyes and twitching lips who tried to talk to Pat but could not articulate clearly. The last glimmering of the human spirit had almost gone. An animal looked out from the prison of shrivelled flesh and made meaningless whimpers.
On Christmas morning the Kapo almost carried him from the block. That night, as the sound of a Christmas carol came across from one of the blocks, Block 5 was empty.

Just one of the many many stories from the book, some so gruesome it will make you feel sick. Before i read this book i knew what i thought all i needed to know about the holocaust and the bad Nazi's, hell i remeber when i was a child i use to play war and wanted to be the bad nazi in the war game. I saw death camps in blacknwhite film, learnt about the wars at school and how the germans hated Jews. So whats new? millions of vietnanese were murdered, Stalin murdered his people, the apartieid system in africa, the thousands of chinese murdered by the Japanese, the Japanese maltreatment to the american POWS etc., the list goes on and on. The record of the killing of the Jews thanks to the surviors and authors is put into words so the whole world can read how easy it is for human beings without emotion towards its victim, to be killers of its own kind. Not even animals kill there own kind.

[Kissaki]

The suffering was a product of not caring for their comfort or safety, plus sadism among some of the guards. But there was nothing in the ideology itself to the effect that anyone should be made to suffer.
So your saying a real survivor of the Nazi camps 'Hugo Gryn' Got it wrong???

About that, yes. He only saw a very small part of it. He only saw the sadists. After he was sent to the KZ camp, and as his hatred grew, he forgot the other ones.

It's natural. And it's precicely the reason why civilized justice systems don't allow the victims to decide on punishment. They'd be hellbent on revenge, and would not want an eye for an eye - they'd want an arm for a nail.

[Bellman]

August - Just so. The scapegoating was systemised and used as a unifying force.
Its tempting to extend this theory to current international relations. But it is clear that 'Us and them' attitudes
and percieved threats have been milked, created and manipulated by politicians for ions.
As we knowthe Nazis were not unique. Propoganda today would be awe inspiring to Dr Goebbels - it is subtle
and pervasive. I'm not a great Chomski fan but there are elements of truth in his 'Management of Consent"

It is very hard not to take the most pessimistic view of a world where medieval prejudice is wedded to nuclear capability.

[kiwi_2005]

About that, yes. He only saw a very small part of it. He only saw the sadists. After he was sent to the KZ camp, and as his hatred grew, he forgot the other ones.

Ok i presume this chap Hugo your read about before? I see.

I though after reading this book, they the nazis were ALL Sadists.

[Kissaki]

About that, yes. He only saw a very small part of it. He only saw the sadists. After he was sent to the KZ camp, and as his hatred grew, he forgot the other ones.

Ok i presume this chap Hugo your read about before? I see.

I though after reading this book, they the nazis were ALL Sadists.

That's the problem about reading books. I read as an historian, and therefore will not allow myself to be swept away by anecdotes. Anecdotes only apply to specific cases, and cannot be used to generalize. Though if there are heaps of similar anecdotal evidence, they can be used to draw broader conclusions. However, when the bulk of the anecdotal evidence concerns what went on in the camps, it is absolutely rubbish to apply it to anything outside the camps. There was the Totenkopf division, most of whom were KZ camp guards and quite often vicious bastards. No matter how much you read about those guys, however, you cannot extend their role to an SS mountain division or SS panzer or panzer-grenadier division for example.

Take the Norwegian volunteers for the SS: their primary motivation was typically to help the Fins fight the Russians, to fight Bolschevism. They obviously couldn't have minded Nazi ideology too much, but there's little to suggest they were true followers either. There are so many facets to everything in life. Nothing can be adequately explained from just one side.

[Kissaki]

As we knowthe Nazis were not unique. Propoganda today would be awe inspiring to Dr Goebbels - it is subtle
and pervasive. I'm not a great Chomski fan but there are elements of truth in his 'Management of Consent"

Indeed.


It is very hard not to take the most pessimistic view of a world where medieval prejudice is wedded to nuclear capability.

Ah, but is this also not a view shaped by propaganda? I've never seen Iranian plans for nukes myself, so I have to rely on the information I get from various news channels. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe Iran is up to no good, but I do not know. After all, the victims of Nazi propaganda were equally certain they were given good information.

[kiwi_2005]

There was the Totenkopf division, most of whom were KZ camp guards and quite often vicious bastards. No matter how much you read about those guys, however, you cannot extend their role to an SS mountain division or SS panzer or panzer-grenadier division for example.

Yeah true. Didn't think of it like that. I think the problem with how i have come to a conclusion such as this is because i was just blown away at the brutality of it. How simple is that. I had already made up my mind that all SS are as vicious as the sadistic camp guard. Yet i remeber now one Jew saying that an SS guard was kind to them the Jew felt that the SS guard did not like what his people were doing to the Jews.

[Kissaki]

Yeah true. Didn't think of it like that. I think the problem with how i have come to a conclusion such as this is because i was just blown away at the brutality of it. How simple is that. I had already made up my mind that all SS are as vicious as the sadistic camp guard. Yet i remeber now one Jew saying that an SS guard was kind to them the Jew felt that the SS guard did not like what his people were doing to the Jews.

I don't remember his name, but there was an SS man who was praised at the Nürnberg trial for having refused to take part in mass murder. But for the most part, the KZ camp guards were either sadists to begin with, or they were gradually hardened to the point of "es ist mir Scheiss ergal" ("I don't give a sh!t"). I remember an interview with a guard who said that when he was new and shown the ropes, he was horrified. Especially when he was shown how to gas Jews. He got sick to his stomach and asked the veteran camp guard, "this is terrible, how can we do such things?" To which the answer came, unaffected: "You get used to it". And he did.

Of course, then the question arises, "why didn't they speak up against the injustice if they felt so bad about it?" There's no easy answer, but I guess it can be explained in weakness. They were afraid to go up against authority, so they found ways to convince themselves that what they did benefited humanity in the long run, or that they were only a small part of a big machinery and that if they didn't do it someone else would anyway, and so on. People like to be able to sleep at night, and so they may distort the truth in order to justify their actions.

And especially, when a person is forced to do something bad, it's a lot easier for him to believe his government if they say that what he did was good. It's easy for him to believe the propaganda, because he wants to believe it. He has to believe it, for his own peace of mind.

[kiwi_2005]

Oh the Joy!
In the thread further up about the fate of the 7 Jews by the Sadistic Kapo, I just read now that the day the Reds were closing in on Mauthausen concentration camp. The Kapo came into the yard where the Jews were and pleading for his life asking the inmates to put in a good word for him because in his own words "I helped alot of Jews" At that moment 3 young men with still enough strength manage to bring him down and kill him.

Revenge is sweet.

[kiwi_2005]

The Jews even had a hard time when the war was over. Jews heading back to there homes found they were already occupied, alot of Pro-Nazi Poles still managed to murder Jews. An incident where a 17yr old and his brother aged 12, were waiting for a train when two Polish officers took them away, stole there belongings given to them by the Red Cross, then walked them to a run down building and were about to shoot them when the eldest Jew pleaded for there lives, one of the officers said put your gun down, before they left they told the Jew he is very lucky, we have killed many of you Jews since the day of liberation.

What really got me here is still the hatred towards the Jews, words i still here today from some people, while the Jew ask why is it taking so long to get to the police station, as the Jew thought thats where they are going he had no reason to think this Pole hated him. The Pole answered "Shut your F**kin mouth you F**kin Jew. It has to be some form of evil. Not anger. Pure evil.