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SUBMAN1
09-23-05, 12:54 PM
Another reason I won't fly Airbus.

-S


In the first crash of a new 'Fly-By-Wire' aircraft, the Airbus A320-100 impacted trees while performing a fly-by at an airshow and burst into flames. The crew, and Air France maintenance officials, have all been sentenced to probation for manslaughter; the Captain has been imprisoned. Evidence, including photographs, has now been exposed that an Airbus official at the scene switched the Digital Flight Data Recorder before the court hearing.

Since May 1998, it is proven that the Flight Data Recorder was switched after the accident. The Lausanne Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) comes to the conclusion that the recorder presented to the Court is NOT the one taken from the aircraft after the accident. Details: See below


Contents:
The Crash
The Official Version
The Captain's Version
The OEB's
The Black Boxes
The Engines: CFMI assesses CFMI
Germain Sengelin
Norbert Jacquet
The Forest
Why shouldn't one believe the official version?
The Sentence
The IPSC report: The Flight Data Recorder has been substituted!


The Crash
On Sunday June 26, 1988, the airclub at the airfield of Mulhouse-Habsheim in Alsace/France had organized with Air France a low approach of a brand new Airbus A320 in landing configuration. Michel Asseline was the pilot in command of F-GFKC, Pierre Mazière was his first officer, when the aircraft overflew the airfield at 2 pm in wonderful sunny weather. Some seconds later the aircraft touched the tops of the trees behind the runway and crashed into a forest. 3 passengers died in the accident and about 50 were injured. The accident was filmed by a video amateur and has been shown dozens of times on TV. F-GFKC was the first of a couple of aircraft of this type to be lost in the next few years (see below).

The Black Boxes were taken undamaged from the aircraft 2 hours after the crash, but unfortunately they have been out of control of justice for 10 days, and since May 1998 it is proven that the Flight Data Recorder was substituted during this period. The Lausanne Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) comes to the conclusion that the Black Boxes used in the trial to declare the pilot guilty are NOT the ones taken from the aircraft.

The aircraft was new, Airbus was waiting for commands, a lack of confidence in the highly computerized aircraft would have meant a commercial disaster - not only for the manufacturer, but also for the French administration, which has a share in the European Airbus consortium.

The Official Version
The French minister of transportation (Louis Mermoz), the company (Air France) and the aircraft manufacturer (Airbus Industry) declared with precipitation shortly after the accident that the aircraft was beyond any doubt. The final report (published 18 months after the accident) comes to the same conclusion, but the authenticity of the data on which the report has always been very doubtful, and since May 1998 it is proven by the report of the Lausanne IPSC that the Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) was substituted after the crash. For 10 years the media have not stopped reporting about the anomalies which have accompanied the technical investigation of the accident from the beginning.

The Captain's Version

Captain Asseline flew the aircraft manually. He had been instructed by Air France to overfly the airfield at 100 ft above ground. When he increased throttle to level off at 100 ft, the engines did not respond. So after some seconds he got worried and thought there was something like a short-circuit in the completely computerized throttle control. So he pulled the throttle back all the way and forth again. By that time the aircraft had touched the trees.

After the accident, Captain Asseline was very astonished when he saw on an amateur video tape that the gear was only 30 ft above ground when the aircraft was passing over the runway. He affirms the altimeter of the Airbus A320 indicated 100 ft.

Operational Engineering Bulletins

No fewer than 52 provisional flight notices have been published by Airbus Industry between April 1988 and April 1989. Hardly any new aircraft type has manifested such a large number of malfunctions. An OEB (Operational Engineering Bulletin) is a temporary notice sent out by the manufacturer to the users of an aircraft. They form a list of anomalies or simply functional features which do not appear in the users' manual. 2 OEBs are particularly interesting in relation with the Habsheim crash:

OEB 19/1 (May 1988): Engine Acceleration Deficiency at Low Altitude. This means that it was already known before the accident that the engines sometimes did not respond normally to the pilot's commands on the Airbus A320. However Air France did not inform their pilots about this anomaly. After the Habsheim accident, the engines have been modified (OEB 19/2, August 1988).
OEB 06/2 (May 1988): Baro-Setting Cross Check. It stated that the current design for barometric altitude indication on the Airbus A320 did not comply with airworthiness. This could be a hint why the aircraft was as low as 30 ft (9 m) above the runway whereas Asseline affirms that the altimeter indicated 100 ft (30 m).
These OEBs were sent to the company (Air France), but they had not been handed to the pilots. In fact both the engines and the altimetric system have been modified after the crash, which indicates that they did not function correctly at that time, but Airbus Industries was not held responsible of anything by the French Court, the whole responsibility was given to the pilots and to the organizers of the airshow.

The Black Boxes

The Black Boxes (the DFDR and the CVR), major pieces of evidence, have been out of control of the investigating court at Mulhouse for 10 days. The CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) records the pilots' voices. The Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) records the flight parameters, for example the altitude, speed, acceleration/deceleration, engine speed etc. According to the French Penal Procedure the police should have confiscated the black boxes immediately after the accident for further examination by independent experts. Instead the black boxes have been illegitimately in possession of the DGAC (Direction Génerale de l'Aviation Civile) from June 26 (the day of the accident) to July 6, when Germain Sengelin, investigating magistrate at Mulhouse, had ordered their confiscation.

The Black Boxes from which the official report has been made show a series of anomalies, which has led a lot of critical people since 1988 to call in question their authenticity:

The black boxes have been physically opened, the magnetic tape has been cut. Normally you put the black boxes into a reading machine without opening them - the same way you read a cassette in a video recorder.
8 seconds are missing in the recording, 4 seconds are missing just before the impact. That means that the DFDR would have stopped accidentally just before the impact.
The DFDR and the CVR are 4 seconds out of synchronization during the last part of the recording.
There is no indication of longitudinal deceleration at the impact. This might be expected in a collision with a mountain, but in Habsheim the recorders should have been able to operate until the aircraft disintegrated. Any crash which could be survived by all but 3 passengers should not have caused an abrupt stop in the DFDR recording.
Due to these anomalies, and the fact that the Black Boxes were in the hands of the DGAC, it has always been supposed, and is finally proven since May 1998, that the Flight Data Recorder confiscated on July 5 from the DGAC is NOT the one which was taken from the aircraft after the crash.

The Engines: CFMI assesses CFMI

The engines of the crashed aircraft have been examinated by the manufacturer (CFMI/SNECMA) himself instead of independent experts. An Operational Bulletin (OEB 19/1) about Engine acceleration deficiency at low altitude was sent out before the accident, in May 1988 (but Air France didn't pass it to its Airbus A320 pilots) and was modified in August (OEB 19/2). The engines, too, were modified after the accident.

Germain Sengelin

Germain Sengelin, investigating magistrate at Mulhouse, was amazed that the Black Boxes had been out of control of justice for 10 days. On Tuesday July 5 1988 at 12.30 pm he ordered the recorders to be confiscated at Paris. His order ought to have been executed before 5 pm; in fact, for some reason, it was not executed before Wednesday July 6 8.00 am: This is another anomaly.

Norbert Jacquet
Norbert Jacquet, an Air France pilot who spoke out in Asseline's support, was suspended from duty and had his licence withdrawn by Air France on the grounds of "mental instability". Meanwhile he has got five psychiatric certificates which unanimously state that he is completely sane and does not have any signs of mental trouble. One understands that co-pilot Pierre Mazière, who has continued to fly for Air France after the accident, cannot dare to express himself on the subject.

The Forest
When the aircraft hit the trees, its wings made an aisle in the forest - a valuable source of evidence. However the forest has been razed with precipitation within 3 days after the accident. The order to cut the trees was given by Mr Mangane and Mr Villeneuve from the Accident Investigation Bureau. While going down, the aircraft cut the trees at a height of 11 m (36 ft) on the left and 8.5 m (28 ft) on the right side. This difference might indicate that the engines were not running at the same speed. That has not been taken into account in the final report.

Why shouldn't one believe the official version?
Consider the following argument: If anything was OK with the aircraft, why did the DGAC withhold the tapes until the police confiscated them? Why are there several seconds missing in the recordings, just before the impact? Why have the Black Boxes been substituted? The people interested in the success of the aircraft would be stupid if they aroused unnecessarily suspicion and rumours.

Why should someone who has a clear conscience behave in a suspicious way? That's why I think it's difficult to believe that the investigation was in order.

The Sentence
5 persons have been accused for injury and manslaughter by the Court of Colmar/France:

Captain Michel Asseline
First Officer Pierre Mazière
the president of the Habsheim airclub
a Security Officer of Air France
a Director of Flight Operation of Air France
In 1996, the court refused a request of Asseline's defense for annulment of the flight-data recordings. On March 14, 1997, the Court of Colmar pronounced its judgment under the presidency of judge Christian Riss: Asseline gets 6 months of imprisonment plus 12 suspended on probation. The other 4 accused all get prison sentences suspended on probation. So the Court gives the major responsibility to Captain Asseline. Asseline announced he would make appeal, if necessary he will appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. Mazière said he accepted the judgment. Anyway Mazière never comments the accident - he is still flying for Air France.

The appeal process startet in January 1998, again at the Appeals Court of Colmar, under the presidency of judge Claudine Krieger-Bour. On April 9, 1998, the Court declared Asseline guilty of manslaughter and bodily harm, again on the basis of the doubtful recordings, and increased the original sentence to 10 months of imprisonment plus 10 months on probation.

Asseline walked free from the court and said he would appeal to France's Supreme Court, the Cour de Cassation. The arrest will become valid in about one year, and according to French law, Asseline must declare himself prisoner before his appeal is examined by the Court.

So the French Justice fails to confiscate in due time pieces of evidence, which could possibly prove the innocence of an accused, and nevertheless uses these pieces against him after 8 years.

The IPSC report: The Flight Data Recorder has been substituted!

N°1: Photograph taken from a helicopter by journalists of SIPA-Press on the accident site:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5782/habsh10pu.jpg

N°2: Enlargement of photograph N°1 showing Mr. Gérard carrying the Black Boxes: the CVR on the left, the DFDR on the right:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1824/habsh21js.jpg

N°3: Black Boxes photographed at the Court of Colmar (the DFDR being in the foreground)
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4010/habsh32kn.jpg

N°4: Enlargement of photograph N°2, showing the visible side of the CVR:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9431/habsh45ea.jpg

The Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (Institut de Police Scientifique et Criminologique, IPSC) based at Lausanne/Switzerland has analyzed photographs from the site of the accident showing a man carrying the Black Boxes. The Black Boxes are equipped with white stripes so that they can more easily be detected under water.

The IPSC has determined that the DFDR from the aircraft has straight stripes on its side (perpendicular to the edges), whereas the DFDR presented at the trial has angled lines. The IPSC comes to the conclusion that:

* either Mr. Gérard is NOT carrying the DFDR of the crashed Airbus A320 on the photograph
* or the DFDR presented at the trial is NOT the one from the crashed Airbus A320.

Read the detailed report on the IPSC report on the site of the French Airline Pilots' Association www.snpl.com/habsheim.html (in French)
The Air Bulletin writes:

The black box of an Airbus that crashed during an air show in France in 1988 was replaced with another after the accident, a report shows. Three people died when an A320 airliner piloted by Michel Asseline ploughed into a forest and burst into flames after a low pass over an airfield near the eastern French city of Mulhouse. Mr. Asseline, a former Air France pilot, was sentenced to ten months in jail by an appeal's court for manslaughter and bodily harm over the crash, but he always maintained that the flight data used by investigators and displayed at the trial was a fabrication.

Acting on Mr. Asseline's request, the renowned Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) of Lausanne (Switzerland) examined documents from the crash and the trials and concluded that the black box of the aircraft had been switched after the accident. Along with its report, the IPSC published photographs of a French Directorate General for Civil Aviation (DGAC) official retrieving the black box from the wreckage of the aircraft. After enlarging, a photograph shows straight white stripes on the side of the black box. The black box presented at Mr. Asseline's trials as the original one had angled white lines on its side.

The report is expected to be a boost in Mr. Asseline's attempt to have his conviction overturned. Mr. Asseline has already exhausted all appeal procedures and has now filed a claim with France's highest court, which rules only on legal technicalities and will not look into the crash again, to have the first trial annulled for evidence tampering. Until the report from the IPSC, Mr. Asseline's claim that the black box had been switched after the crash had no solid proof, but there were doubts on the integrity of the crash investigation because of a one week delay between the time the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and the Cockpit Data Recorder (CDR) were retrieved from the wreckage and the day they were handed over to investigators. To this date, it is not clear exactly who held the black box for a week and why.

Type941
09-23-05, 12:57 PM
I just refer to your topic - isn't it true that the DC-10 is the much more loathed aircraft that had a lot of failures?

Boing vs. Airbus is extremely political debate btw. AS it's another round of europe vs america.

Kapitan
09-23-05, 01:00 PM
there is one thing

the airbus when it crashed had its landing gear down and configured for landing when the pilot tried pulling up and adding power the onboard computers stopped it because it would have stalled the plane

either way it would have crashed it was a safty feature that caused the inncident not the plane the plane was purfect the pilot was at fault

Gizzmoe
09-23-05, 01:02 PM
Another reason I won't fly Airbus.

<yawn> That was 17 years ago... You are a little bit too ignorant.

SUBMAN1
09-23-05, 01:02 PM
Not sure why the images didn't come through direct from the site. I reposted them on image shack. Works now.

-S

SUBMAN1
09-23-05, 01:02 PM
Another reason I won't fly Airbus.

<yawn> That was 17 years ago... You are a little bit too ignorant.

Ignorant? hahahaha! Who is talking here?

Kapitan
09-23-05, 01:07 PM
well airbus have had fewer losses than boeing and thats a fact

airbus is rated as safe and safer by nearly all authorities incluing the FAA NTSB CAA

PeriscopeDepth
09-23-05, 01:12 PM
These are huge aircraft, that fly day in and day out through all sorts of weather and are operated in the "make money or die" deregulated world of the airlines. People are not perfect, and it's inevitable that a certain amount of these complicated machines are going to fall from the sky.

Whether it's made by Airbus or Boeing.

Gizzmoe
09-23-05, 01:19 PM
Ignorant?

"I don´t fly Airbus". Yes, that´s indeed extremely ignorant. You don´t have any good reasons and the numbers are against you. Someone who says "I don´t fly Boeing" would also be ignorant.

SUBMAN1
09-23-05, 01:28 PM
well airbus have had fewer losses than boeing and thats a fact

airbus is rated as safe and safer by nearly all authorities incluing the FAA NTSB CAA

That is incorrect, unless if you include the fact that Airbus hasn't been around as long.

Statistically, Boeing 777 and Airbus A340 are accident free. A330 has had a crash, putting it slightly above a 767 accident wise.

If you look at the A320 however, it sucks with a statistical rate of .67 crashes per million take offs and landings. What is better than that?

Mind you, these are all old aircraft too:

Lets see, the 737 is better at .6, and this is across all model lines since it was first flown! The 500+ versions of 737 are down to about .2.

The MD-80 beats it bad with a score of .43

The 757 beats it with a score of .35

SAAB 340 has a score of .33

So, looking at this list, what type of pattern are you starting to see? The newer the Boeing aircraft, the better the safety ratings.

If you want to look at older Airbus aircraft, the A300 has a statistical value of 1.34, and the A310 has a super high 1.83!

So to say that flying Airbus is safer, I'd have to disagree. I don't care much for McDonald Douglas either is that says anything. They rank the worst with their MD-11, only followed by Concord, which I don't count. Concord is a beautiful plane an I am sad to see it pulled from service.

-S

Bob Sakamano
09-23-05, 11:57 PM
I always travel by submarine if I can.

There are lots more planes in the ocean than submarines in the sky.

Kapitan
09-24-05, 01:01 AM
let him get on with it he is obviously one ignorant pig

personaly a plane is a plane it goes in tha air it goes from A to B chances of being involved in a crash are well about 1 in a million

i prefer airbus over boeing due to the fact i feel more comftable about them where i wouldnt boeing

But i dont like flying so i dont fly much

Type941
09-24-05, 06:13 AM
I also don't like flying and only flew with 2 types of Boing (737 and 747) and I didn't like the 737 because it felt decidedly old and not so nice, and 747 - flying tourist class to US felt so cramped that it's not even funny. The airbusses were much roomier or felt roomier and i also prefer them as a PASSENGER.

Torpedo Fodder
09-24-05, 09:44 AM
I also don't like flying and only flew with 2 types of Boing (737 and 747) and I didn't like the 737 because it felt decidedly old and not so nice, and 747 - flying tourist class to US felt so cramped that it's not even funny. The airbusses were much roomier or felt roomier and i also prefer them as a PASSENGER.

How "roomy" a particular aircraft feels is depends on the seating configuration selected by the airline you happen to be flying with, not the design of the aircraft. I've heard people complain that Airbus planes are cramped compared to Boeing's, and I've given them the same answer.

Kapitan
09-24-05, 09:48 AM
havnt you noticed some thing yet ?

it was an airbus from airfrance that crashed in the air show and air france airbus that crahsed this time and air france that crashed concorde

see a pattern it might not be just the plane it might be the air line ever thought of that?

Type941
09-24-05, 10:55 AM
see a pattern it might not be just the plane it might be the air line ever thought of that?

I can see it now - the french publish their airline Black list and including Air France on top! :doh:

Abraham
09-26-05, 03:57 PM
I prefer Boebus over Airing, but I have to admid I'm slightly confused by the postings on this thread.
:D

SUBMAN1
09-27-05, 09:23 AM
I might be a little confused about the posts on this thread too. Apparently, I am ignorant for not liking the way safety procedures are handled by a company. Seems I am not ignorant considering I know about them. Hahahaha! :) Seems some people need to go back to school so that they can even understand what the word 'ignorant' even means.

-S

PS. Let me help you:

ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.

The Avon Lady
09-27-05, 09:33 AM
I prefer Boebus over Airing
GASP! :o

Graft in the aviation industry!

SUBMAN1
09-27-05, 09:42 AM
there is one thing

the airbus when it crashed had its landing gear down and configured for landing when the pilot tried pulling up and adding power the onboard computers stopped it because it would have stalled the plane

either way it would have crashed it was a safty feature that caused the inncident not the plane the plane was purfect the pilot was at fault

Oh - I forgot something - If you bothered to read, the throttles refused to spool up. Another thing, picture this scenario - one that is most likely to kill you by the way since it happens all the time - You are landing and about to touch down and another jet pulls out on the runway. Hmm, computer says you can't do jack, so you just happily plow right into the back and kill everyone in both planes.

That is your most likely crash scenario and the computer telling you you can't do something is idiotic. You must try, and so what if you stalled? Maybe you saved the lives of hundreds of people because you were allowed to attempt the manuver.

-S

JamesT73J
09-28-05, 03:55 AM
there is one thing

the airbus when it crashed had its landing gear down and configured for landing when the pilot tried pulling up and adding power the onboard computers stopped it because it would have stalled the plane

either way it would have crashed it was a safty feature that caused the inncident not the plane the plane was purfect the pilot was at fault

Oh - I forgot something - If you bothered to read, the throttles refused to spool up. Another thing, picture this scenario - one that is most likely to kill you by the way since it happens all the time - You are landing and about to touch down and another jet pulls out on the runway. Hmm, computer says you can't do jack, so you just happily plow right into the back and kill everyone in both planes.

That is your most likely crash scenario and the computer telling you you can't do something is idiotic. You must try, and so what if you stalled? Maybe you saved the lives of hundreds of people because you were allowed to attempt the manuver.

-S

You move the throttle out of the climb detent to TOGA, the engines accelerate to takeoff power, and you're off. What's your point?

You're getting your knickers in a twist over Fly by wire. FADEC has been the standard in engine throttle control for two decades now, on all modern aircraft. Like any new technology, it had teething problems, particularly in military applications where the use and performance requirements are more rigourous.

As for cabin room, the A320 has more space than an NG, irrespective of layout. Simple fact.

Torpedo Fodder
09-28-05, 09:55 AM
As for cabin room, the A320 has more space than an NG, irrespective of layout. Simple fact.

As far as I'm aware, the only A320 variant that has more passenger capacity than it's 737 equivilent is in the case of the A321 vs. the 737-900. That will no longer be the case when Boeing introduces the 737-900ER, which will carry only 5 less passengers (215 vs. 220) than the A321 in high-density 1-class configuration.

SUBMAN1
09-29-05, 07:34 PM
Well, I forgot. I guess the Boeing 777 is now the only plane without an accident. The A340 and A330 both have had one. It looks like the A340 had some sort of malfunction too. Sorry for my out of date info.

-S

Kapitan
09-29-05, 09:00 PM
as i recall an el al 747-400 was inspected by the FAA when it landed in new york from tel aviv what they found was shocking

a seat belt from a passenger seat had been strapped to the turbine unit of number two engine to stop it from moving in fact the pilot before hand had reported number two engine had problems but due to scheduals and what have you the maintinance staff over looked this case for the time being.

the aircraft itself had flown from tel aviv to new york on only three engines ok fair play 747 can fly with three and is certified but realy honestly :o

The Avon Lady
09-29-05, 11:37 PM
as i recall an el al 747-400 was inspected by the FAA when it landed in new york from tel aviv what they found was shocking

a seat belt from a passenger seat had been strapped to the turbine unit of number two engine to stop it from moving in fact the pilot before hand had reported number two engine had problems but due to scheduals and what have you the maintinance staff over looked this case for the time being.

the aircraft itself had flown from tel aviv to new york on only three engines ok fair play 747 can fly with three and is certified but realy honestly :o
I've Googled and searched the FAA's site and I've personally never heard such a story.

Gotta link? :-?

Kapitan
09-30-05, 12:02 AM
no link just what i was told should be on there some where though im dam sure of it cause i found it on the net

Gizzmoe
09-30-05, 01:11 AM
Kapitain, please do us a favour and buy a keyboard that also has a "comma" and "period" key!

Kapitan
09-30-05, 01:18 AM
i think you find that is why im taking english classes

i dont learn grammer till period 3 which is about 3 months away so i dunno :D

my keyboard does have them keys but sadly there stuck up due to lack of use :up:

Gizzmoe
09-30-05, 01:21 AM
VERY funny... :roll:

Kapitan
09-30-05, 01:24 AM
as it goes it wasnt ment to be sarcastic i realy am doing english lessons and also some of my ymbol keys are stuck due to the fact i spiltt coffe over the keyboard and the sugar has crystalised making them harder to push

Gizzmoe
09-30-05, 01:31 AM
As I said, buy a new one. The lack of punctuation marks makes it very hard to read your posts. Your English isn´t bad at all, don´t tell me that you have to take more English lessons before you can place a period or comma correctly... You did that in the past in some of your posts.

The Avon Lady
09-30-05, 02:27 AM
no link just what i was told should be on there some where though im dam sure of it cause i found it on the net
Rumor mongerer. :yep: :D

XabbaRus
09-30-05, 03:07 AM
But Kapitain, you are English,
I know we don't teach English grammar in schools, well not when I was at school 11 years back but still I have good grammar and decent punctuation.

Is the education system in England that screwed? Much better in Scotland. :)

I guess though as an English teacher I'd better have decent grammar.

The Avon Lady
09-30-05, 03:14 AM
Is the education system in England that screwed. Much better in Scotland :)

I guess though as an English teacher I better have decent grammar.
Shouldn't there have been a question mark after the words "that screwed", the word "much" preceded by the words "It is", a period after the word "Scotland" to form an end of sentence, and the words "as an English teacher" preceded and followed by a comma?

:know:

Gizzmoe
09-30-05, 03:19 AM
:lol:

XabbaRus
09-30-05, 05:25 AM
Ah but then there is forum English. :)

Just like there are different ways of using English in lets say journalism.

Why are headlines of papers quite often grammatically incorrect?

It is the style in which they are written, a short form in which to get a point across quickly hence "Much better in Scotland."

In fact the spread of text messaging and the use of messenger programs are blamed for the drop in standards of grammar amongst British school children.

I will admit that when I type my grammar is far from perfect mainly due to my posts being rushed and the fact I am not a great typist.

If I was writing by hand or an essay it would be a lot better.

What I don't get with Kapitain is that he is 17 but only just starting grammar lessons. However the way in which he describes it is as if he is taking English as a second language, or that's how it comes across to me. Kapitain is English though.

I'm confused.

The Avon Lady
09-30-05, 06:30 AM
I feel like I've been sent to the principal's office. :oops:

Kap's location also mentions Russia. Could it be that he's a relatively new inhabitant of the Queen's realm? :-?

Kapitan
09-30-05, 06:31 AM
english isnt second language and ive been studying it since i started school properly in year 7 (primary years well didnt realy go)

im re doing english but i have trouble with punctuation its my weakest spot same with spelling im not dyslexic just havnt realy learnt it because i missed so much school when it was being taught

senior schools dont realy teach grammer ect they emphasise on things like litrature and stuff so i missed the critical part of school there

Abraham
09-30-05, 07:03 AM
english isnt second language and ive been studying it since i started school properly in year 7 (primary years well didnt realy go)

im re doing english but i have trouble with punctuation its my weakest spot same with spelling im not dyslexic just havnt realy learnt it because i missed so much school when it was being taught

senior schools dont realy teach grammer ect they emphasise on things like litrature and stuff so i missed the critical part of school there
You might pick up some ideas about capitals and punctuation carefully reading the threads from others...
:D

Gizzmoe
09-30-05, 07:09 AM
im re doing english but i have trouble with punctuation its my weakest spot same with spelling im not dyslexic just havnt realy learnt it because i missed so much school when it was being taught

But I guess you know where one sentence ends and where the next one starts!?! Try to read what you wrote aloud, that gives you a pretty good idea where it ends or even where you can place a comma, because of the natural pause that you make.

Abraham
09-30-05, 08:13 AM
English isn't my second language and I've been studying it since I started school properly in year 7 (primary years well didn't realy go...).
I'm doing English, but I have trouble with punctuation; its my weakest spot. It's the same with spelling. I'm not dyslexic, I just haven't realy learned it because I missed so much school when it was being taught.
Senior schools don't realy teach grammer etc.; they emphasise on things like litterature and stuff, so I missed the critical part of school there.
Wow, a few capitals and some points and comma's certainly make a big difference, Kapitain!
:D

Kapitan
09-30-05, 10:20 AM
This is something i must learn ive never been good at this so forgive me for time being i shall learn this.

^^^^^^^^^^^already started^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Abraham
10-01-05, 12:55 AM
Lesson 2: the word "I" is always written with a capital; not "i" but "I".
And so are names: not "isreal" (=is real) but "Israel" (country in the Middle East).

Kapitain, if you continue to improve your English (= name of language), we will finally be able to read your postings without getting headaches...
:know:

Kapitan
10-01-05, 01:36 AM
Darn they figured out my plan :damn: :D

Ok i shall try my best from now on. :D

JamesT73J
10-02-05, 04:15 AM
As for cabin room, the A320 has more space than an NG, irrespective of layout. Simple fact.

As far as I'm aware, the only A320 variant that has more passenger capacity than it's 737 equivilent is in the case of the A321 vs. the 737-900. That will no longer be the case when Boeing introduces the 737-900ER, which will carry only 5 less passengers (215 vs. 220) than the A321 in high-density 1-class configuration.

Sorry, I didn't make my point clear. In terms of pax numbers, economy, performance, both products are very similar.

However, in terms of actual comfort space given a similar seating arrangement, the Airbus has more room. This is merely a function of the design being newer - the NG is still a little limited by the original 737 tube & systems layout in the fuselage, although the wing structure is brand new.


James