O/T National Service

[Damo1977]

Recently in my local paper (The Advertiser) I read that Germany has National Service. Which I admit I never knew and actually surprised me.....I knew there are a few small countries with it, like Switzerland and Israel.......But Germany shocked me because of the reasonable size population. Just as a matter of interest, just like to know of other countries that have it. In Australia, our population is just above the 20mil mark which is relatively small but we don't have National Service, but some are talking about introducing it. If you do have National Service, just wondering if it benefits yourself personally and the country or just the country. Also how do the regular Armed forces react with the National Service troops? Hope you understand my last questions.

[Abraham]

Holland ended compulsory military service in the mid '90s. When the threath of a major military conflict on the continent of Europe had vanished.
The result was a much smaller military, much more dedicated and professional and much better equipment.

[Gizzmoe]

The National Service in Germany is a relict of the Cold War era. A standing army that is capable of defending against Warsaw Pact troops would have been much too expensive. In the Eighties the Bundeswehr had 500k soldiers and could be expanded to 1.3 million in a matter of 3-6 months. That was only possible because we could mobilize a large number of reservists.

As far as I know there is no longer a mobilization plan. The times have changed and today the Bundeswehr only has 250k men. Today you spend 9 months as a conscript, in the Eighties it was 15-18 months.

I´m not too sure yet if a professional army would be better, I think it´s good to have a large inactive reserve in the background.

[Skybird]

German'S unadmitted main reason to stick to this system is becasue those who reject to serve can do that at the price of serving in a social service, also almost for free, of course. The social service ("Zivis"=Zivildienstleistende; nursery, ambulance driver, home service for old people, etc.) is heavily depending on this system and tailored itself to depend on this steady basis of helping personnel that comes all for free. Parties have failed to tackle this unlucky link between social and military service. Going to a professional army would delete the personnel pool for the helping service that never has learned to manage it's finance without these free workers. expose them to market regulation would increase the misery that has become apparent in the service and treatmeent with old people even more, the whole branch is going down the drain, it seems. Noone with a healthy mind would easily wish to become old and dependant/ill in this society! Loosing the Zivis would be a major blow as long as not an obligatory year in social services is implemented to replace military service. And here the debate starts: if it is just to send the men alone to this social service and leave girls our, who in principle can do that kind of work, too, it's is discriminatory towards male sex and a ignoration of equaolity of chances for both sexes; and if girls are allowed, then the other side argues that then they would be the ones treated unjust, for now they would have a double effort: social work now, children and family later. Most politicians avoid this theme like the pleague. It is also a deeply rooted fear of Germans. We once had a professional army, and we know where it lead to: scaring efficiency, as even the enemies of NaziGermany admitted, but also: Hitler, personal cult, an army not under control by the people. The development in America since the end of the second WW and Eisenhower are often referred to in defense of the current system. also, often there is voiced doubt by the critics that a professional army would reduce costs, they say they would go up. I cannot judge that. the most preferred argumkent of politicians is that the service brings together the youth of all federal countries and that it forms a unique interqaction between different regional temperaments. What a pathetic BS! As to what i have been told who went through it the service was wasting time, boredom, and all that poltically stressed idealism nowhere to see. It's babbling for the mikes only, I suppose.

When I cam to Muenster in 2000, I met a Major of the German tank army on a meeting where we were guests, it was no offcial military thing, but private. We srtarted to talk and he ended in admitting with a grim but also sad smile: "I hope this army as a whole never has to go to war as long as it is in it's current shape. Ich kenne Bataillone, die müßten die Hälfte ithres Fahrzeugparks fleddern, um die andere Hälfte zum Laufen zu bringen" (difficult for me to translate: he said that he knows bataillons where they have to cripple half of their vehicles in order to make the other half of their vehicles drivable again).

I personally think that Germany is more than ripe for a pro army, and would like to see the British army as an example for that. I would like to see size shrinking if needed for paying for better and newer equipment. Parts of German equipment are rotten somethings nowadays, nothing more, and this in a time where crazy politicians have started to shuffle German troops around the globe for vague political ambitions only. Idiots. German army has many examples of very good and innovatiove equipment, but most of them are not available in combat-efficient numbers, if combat efficient would be understood as able to defend a country in a full scale war with the whole body of the army. That'S why our international expeditions are very daunting efforts. The German contingent in Afghanistan is unable to supply it's own logistical needs and is heavily depending on the help of others. In case of emergency this troop also would not be able to hold it's ground for onger than just 24-36 hours, but also would need other nation's to get them out. some years ago a German frigate was send to participate in an international excercise. To get that ship into operational staus it was needed to rip vital spareparts out of two or three olther ships that then were non-operational for the months to come. Parts of our armed force live "von der Hand in den Mund".

It's high time to skip the conscript system and go professional, also to not longer understand the BW as a humanitarian help agency, but as what it is: an army, and it should be finan cially supported as that. this does not mean that I like to see the BW beeing scattered around the globe in silly adventures here and there. It's a moral problem for me: if yopu tell a soldier to risk his life, you have the dfamn obligation to give him the best training, informationa nd equipment and supply money can buy. If you do not do that, you have no right to put demands to him.

[Damo1977]

It is also a deeply rooted fear of Germans. We once had a professional army, and we know where it lead to: scaring efficiency, as even the enemies of NaziGermany admitted, but also: Hitler, personal cult, an army not under control by the people.

When I cam to Muenster in 2000, I met a Major of the German tank army on a meeting where we were guests, it was no offcial military thing, but private. We srtarted to talk and he ended in admitting with a grim but also sad smile: "I hope this army as a whole never has to go to war as long as it is in it's current shape. Ich kenne Bataillone, die müßten die Hälfte ithres Fahrzeugparks fleddern, um die andere Hälfte zum Laufen zu bringen" (difficult for me to translate: he said that he knows bataillons where they have to cripple half of their vehicles in order to make the other half of their vehicles drivable again).


My edited version, sorry Skybird.
Your first paragraph is a load of ****e in my opinion Skybird, (I have given up on this arguement because I never can explain it, like I would like). Your second paragraph is like most major democratic nations, the armed forces live on a 'shoe string' budget
But I must say still spun out over Germany with National Service.

[Skybird]

I see. So the Wehrmacht was incompetent, it was in fact under control by the people, and it did not obey to a personal cult around Hitler at all. Sure.

[Damo1977]

I see. The Wehrmacht was incompetent, it was in fact under control by the people, and it did not obey to a personal cult around Hitler at all. Sure.

The German army was never incompetent back than....Maybe you should enlighten your mind and watch a british program called 'Spitfire Ace', that exactly explains why the Germans lost the "Battle of Britain' or does it? See I mean I give up on this arguement of who lost the war for what reason, for if I argue the German side I am Nazi, Yes I should not have personally attacked someone back than, I don't care I am no Nazi!

*editors note
This was meant to be an innocent question*

[Skybird]

Was, verdammt, willst du eigentlich von mir? I have no clue what kind of noise you make, and why.

[tycho102]

Skybird, that was totally enlightening. I knew a bit about your border patrol, but not the social service. Very interesting.

When you "cripple" your vehicles to make others run, that's called "cannibalizing" parts. You have to cannibalize to make your vehicles run. Navy does this with it's aircraft and helicopters. Army has to do the same thing to up-armor their tanks and troop-carriers in Iraq. :)

Generally speaking, "professional" armies sustain better morale under arduous conditions. In part because of the need, but in part because it's a choice.

[Damo1977]

When you "cripple" your vehicles to make others run, that's called "cannibalizing" parts. You have to cannibalize to make your vehicles run. Navy does this with it's aircraft and helicopters. Army has to do the same thing to up-armor their tanks and troop-carriers in Iraq. :)


Look all I was asking only who performs National Service and if it improves the individual and how the regualr armed forces perform with the 'conscripts' or Nationals service people. I could say something about "cannibalising" vehicles or even personal equipment in Iraq, but I shall refrain. If you want to know how hard it is in Iraq go here
http://www.anysoldier.com/

[Skybird]

Skybird, that was totally enlightening. I knew a bit about your border patrol, but not the social service. Very interesting.

When you "cripple" your vehicles to make others run, that's called "cannibalizing" parts. You have to cannibalize to make your vehicles run. Navy does this with it's aircraft and helicopters. Army has to do the same thing to up-armor their tanks and troop-carriers in Iraq. :)

Generally speaking, "professional" armies sustain better morale under arduous conditions. In part because of the need, but in part because it's a choice.

Yes, I consider the choice factor to be be very important for training and moral. But many Germans fear, as I said, that exactly these qualities, free choice, motivation, would turn the army into an elite that is somewhat autark from society, a society within society. the US pentagon in Germany often is referred to as the "secret society", for example, and German awareness of the infamous military-industrial complex in America is pretty high, and concerned. We tend to think of the US military as an example like we never again want our armed forces to be structured and embedded in a national context again, we think it is too dangerous. This is somewhat hipocritical, because German industries are not more shy than other nation'S corporations to spill their military products if not onto the BW, then into foreign countries, if possible. I do not claim the debate around all these things is the most logical and reasonable one, it is not, and often it is highly emotional. We have a phrase here that describes soldiers as "Bürger in Uniform" (citizens in uniform). This also points to the wish that the bundeswehr should not step onto a path were it would distance itself more and more from society, maybe melt more and more with the industry and starts to have economcial interests and power interests of it's own, and overruling that of the state or community. Germans are very hesitant concerning a professional army for this reason. but i think the argument gets abused, at least too exessively used by those who want to stick with the conscript system. as far as I do know - and I am no insider, my impression may be flawed - the military in Britain has not formed so close ties with the defense industry as they have in America, where now the economical interests of companies often form the military instead of the other way around, so I think it should be possible to have professional armed forces and still keep them under tight control of political instances and communal consens on wether to use them or not.

I forgot too mention that the drafting procedure already is very unjust, because only a smaller part of each year's generation is asked to meet with the doctor to check if they can join the consripts army. Most young men are no longer asked, because they simply do not need so many recruits anymore. So some young men have to go, and if they do not want, they must pass time with civil service, and other young men even do not get asked for both services. So much for justice or "chance eqaulity". they really should skip it, the procedure no longer works well.

Damo,
you lost me. No idea what you are about, you hop around with your thoughts wildly, no structure or red line of argument I see in your replies. You originally asked for how a country , germany in my case, comes along with it's army system, and I described it to you, and told you why it is the way it is currently, and why it is so difficult to make it a different one. Bye.

[Damo1977]

Damo,
you lost me. No idea what you are about, you hop around with your thoughts wildly, no structure or red line of argument I see in your replies. You originally asked for how a country , germany in my case, comes along with it's army system, and I described it to you, and told you why it is the way it is currently, and why it is so difficult to make it a different one. Bye.

Sorry, I lost myself too I was doing other things. All I was trying to say about your comment of
'It is also a deeply rooted fear of Germans.'
is that I don't believe this should be true anymore, but I understand why it could be true. I was trying to be kind of diplomatic. But anyhow thankyou for your response.

[August]

I'm glad the Germans remain militarily weak.

While i don't subscribe to making sons pay for the sins of their fathers, there has to be something about a society that would allow itself to be led to utter ruin twice in the past hundred years which bears watching.

Perhaps its the fear of a third trip into national madness that makes at least some of their citizens see secret societies and hidden agendas behind every rock and tree.

Perhaps it's their inherent desire to dominate those around them, one which causes them to criticize the motives, morals and honor of nations that showed them mercy and helped rebuild their country from the ashes of war.

I do not know nor claim to, but I believe German is not, and may never be, ready for a professional military.

[Kapitan]

I'm glad the Germans remain militarily weak

there not that weak in fact i rekon if they took france on germany would win like most germany would strangle france like they tried to do with us in WW1 and 2 they got the submarines for it so they can effectively do it.


as for nation service

russia maintains it too you must do 2 years millatery service in any force while between the ages of 18 and 30 (think age has changed again)

[Skybird]

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything. And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.

[August]

I'm glad the Germans remain militarily weak

there not that weak in fact i rekon if they took france on germany would win like most germany would strangle france like they tried to do with us in WW1 and 2 they got the submarines for it so they can effectively do it.


as for nation service

russia maintains it too you must do 2 years millatery service in any force while between the ages of 18 and 30 (think age has changed again)

Maybe, but i doubt we'll live to see German and Frenchmen shooting at each other again.

BTW I have nothing against the concept of a national service. The way i look at it, Germany has the right idea in offering a choice between military and social service.

While unwilling draftees rarely make good soldiers, I think a year or so of service to ones nation can be a good character building experience for a nations young adults. One tends to care more about something one has helped to defend or maintain. It's the difference between earning something and having it handed to you.

[August]

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything. And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.

Nor did it end with Hitler, but Germany is just now emerging from it's post war period of national "parole". The ability of its people to resist the lure of thinking itself superior to others remains to be tested.

As for your views on other nations, mine in particular, please understand that i find them to be both inaccurate and condescendingly insulting, and suggestive of the superiority complex i have mentioned.

Given my extensive experience with Germans and having lived in Germany for a period of time, I understand they are just one mans rather twisted view of the world, which is sad in a way, because others less familiar with your people may think it's more than that.

[Abraham]

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything.
Aha! The Germans learned their own lesson and now they think they should lecture "other nations that have fallen victim" about "questionable honours and theatrical speeches" and so on?
I see things slightly different. The Germans made a big mistake in the Hitler-era (to put it mildly). They were taught a stiff lesson by the Allies and eventually learned from it. Now they should behave (most do), be grateful for having gotten a new chance (most are) and display extreme modesty in criticising their former teachers (most do).
And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.You're right on this.
You probably just couldn't resist justifying Anti Americanism in your posting. At least I bet you were not aiming at North Korea, Cuba or Burma...

[Skybird]

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything.
Aha! The Germans learned their own lesson and now they think they should lecture "other nations that have fallen victim" about "questionable honours and theatrical speeches" and so on?
I see things slightly different. The Germans made a big mistake in the Hitler-era (to put it mildly). They were taught a stiff lesson by the Allies and eventually learned from it. Now they should behave (most do), be grateful for having gotten a new chance (most are) and display extreme modesty in criticising their former teachers (most do).
And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.You're right on this.
You probably just couldn't resist justifying Anti Americanism in your posting. At least I bet you were not aiming at North Korea, Cuba or Burma...

Aha! Abraham again!
No, you expect us to be eternally thankful for the deeds of a generation that for the most already is no more. we owe it to the deeds of that genenration that we remind their offsprings that they are about to go as wrong as our ancestors did back then. That is the biggest and most precious gift that we can give to them. Joining the league of stupid ones that ignore 6 decades having passed by and changed the victor's country significantly would mean that we haven't learned from our history at all, and that we repeat the same mistakes. By that we proove to be friends. We reject to be subordinate receivers of commands of a small American elite of the rich and the powerful, or submissive vasalls, and we must not accept the fulfillment of economical egoism of others beeing the goal determening our political acting - we have our own egoist economy to keep under control.

And I talk of public opinion here, not of what politicians over here say and do, they are just the usual brunch of selfish and opportunistic a..holes.

Telling a friend that he is about to fall into a deep black hole by fault is better for him than letting hom fall and then blindly jump after him. trying to prevent a friend from doing wrong is the better friendship than join him in his folly.

I am anti-American-policy, and sometimes anti-American-attitude if it presents itself as beeing the to-be-enforced-solution of the world's problems. I am not anti-American in general. But I am sure you will keep on ignoring this difference.

[Abraham]

Hoi Sky, ja, it's me again!

I don't care about "eternal" gratitude, but being blatantly Anti American and in the proces constantly generalising a whole (and pretty divers) nation is something different. But perhaps I shouldn't read too much in that... You'll have your reasons...

I understand you have the best of intentions with the countries you consider your friends. Still I would prefer you speak for yourself and not for the German people as a whole when you say Telling a friend that he is about to fall into a deep black hole by fault is better for him than letting hom fall and then blindly jump after him. trying to prevent a friend from doing wrong is the better friendship than join him in his folly.
First of all, you can't speak for the German people and with your opinion you should strictly speak for yourself.
Second, don't you think it is slightly haugthy for the German people to warn other nations that they are about to fall in deep dark pits.
Lastly, when you warn your friends - with the best of intentions - on behalf of the German people some might not be too receptive and when you try to prevent them on behalf of the German people those countries might not want to be your friends anymore.

As for these beautifull wordsNo, you expect us to be eternally thankful for the deeds of a generation that for the most already is no more. we owe it to the deeds of that genenration that we remind their offsprings that they are about to go as wrong as our ancestors did back then. That is the biggest and most precious gift that we can give to them.how come I always get itchy when people justify their own positions by claiming it to be an obligation they owe to a dead son or a gone generation...
:hmm:
In this case your "gift" is a warning to others that they are about to go as wrong as the Nazi's.
I think that in general both the generation of Allies who fought against Nazism and their offspring would be quite happy if the you kept your biggest and most precious gift for yourself.
I even think that's what you really owe to them.

[Skybird]

the proces constantly generalising a whole (and pretty divers) nation

I time and again illustrated what kinds of differences I make, and that I do not mismatch individuals, private pöersons, and national policy. I may be agisnt the egenral püolicy, but I judge the indual I talk to as an indual, evryone that I meet. I said something liek that in the above ppst of mine, and you ignore it. Accusin me of beeing egnerally anti-America is the easiest and most tempting way to discredit me, so that one must not deal with what I say. You will not stop doing that, and you are not the only one doing it. It's just that you do not like critizism of the US, for whatever personal motives you have, to silence that critizism every means is okay for you. Okay, so call me anti-Aemrican. Get over it.

hold a whole people responsible for I understand you have the best of intentions with the countries you consider your friends. Still I would prefer to speak for yourself and not for the German people as a whole when you say Telling a friend that he is about to fall into a deep black hole by fault is better for him than letting hom fall and then blindly jump after him. trying to prevent a friend from doing wrong is the better friendship than join him in his folly.
First of all, you can't speak for the German people and with your opinion you should strictly speak for yourself.

since you are not really a master of limiting your own opinion to your subjective view, but often claiming that general reason is on your side and so it is impossible to opoose your views withiout rightfully beeing labelled an unreasonable, you shouldn'T start to morally lecture like that. I followed your exchange with Brad in the Liberty-thread. It was so revealing again, but not new.

and more, what I said is the majority' opinion over here, that's why Schroeder was able to make a score by his opposition to Iraq during last elections. the polls vary a bit with years going by, but there always was a very substantial majority beeing against the american hegemonial strategy in general, and Iraq in special.Which also is true for so many old-europeans countries, even if their governements sometimes decided that the people's opinions count nothing.

Second, don't you think it is slightly haugthy for the German people to warn other nations that they are to fall in deep dark pits.

Lastly, when you warn your friends - with the best of intentions - on behalf of the German people some might not be too receptive and when you try to prevent them on behalf of the German people those countries might not want to be your friends anymore.

Okay, so be it, the reputation of the current US is such that it is no honour to be seen as a close ally of them. Cooperation where it is needed would be enough, imo, as far as politics is concerned, and private relations between americans and Germans wopuldn'T be affected by that at all. Former american friends of mine DId know of my opnions, sometimes they understood it, sometimes not, this did not shadow our private realtions - it were people I was dealing with, no politicians. - Do we get bombed and invaded now? We are not responsible if reaosnable warnings in advance get cleaned off the table. Their responsebility, their costs. Iraqis' suffering. I have separated from temporary feinds during my life. Why should it be difefrent with nations? I am deeply convicned there is no such thing as friendship between nations. Only temporary congruency of egoism. Were interests meet, there will be cooperation, the cooperation between Germany and Amwrica on industrial, intelligence and scientifc levels remained almost untouched in their close ties and qualities, btw. Diplomatic sublevels functioned very well and on personal basis as always. The same is true for most interractions between America and - France. Some months ago I linked a portry of the very massive aid the French were giving the Us intel community, dfespite the hostile rethorics between Bush and Chirac. Many operations of the americans in their counter-operations on terorr wouldnT have been possible without assistance by the superb French secret service.

these beautifull wordsNo, you expect us to be eternally thankful for the deeds of a generation that for the most already is no more. we owe it to the deeds of that genenration that we remind their offsprings that they are about to go as wrong as our ancestors did back then. That is the biggest and most precious gift that we can give to them.how come I always get itchy when people justify their own positions by claiming it to be an obligation they owe to a dead son or a gone generation...
:hmm:
In this case your "gift" is a warning to others that they are about to go as wrong as the Nazi's.

No, a warning that Iraq qopuld not work, and why. And more generally, that the military is receiving far too much attention and acceptance in American society, and that it's close ties with private industry comes at the danger of forming hidden elites whose private profit interests are not necessarily in the interests of the people. It's a warning on a trend towards militarism, and collectivism, and a new form of feudalism. These symptoms were explpoited by Hitler to secure hos own power, at least in so far you are right.

I think that in general both the generation of Allies who fought against Nazism and their offspring would be quite happy if the you kept your biggest and most precious gift for yourself.
I even think that's what you really owe to them.
Hardly. Again, you ignore the massive changes the last sixty years have brought to america. the moral authority it had back then it has corrupted all by itself. Those who corrupted it we owe nothing. It's not so much the people that prefer to believe it still is as it was a hundred years ago, but those liars and ursupators that make them believe that way.

[Kapitan]

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ? :-j

nah makes for a good read and you explain well :up:

[Skybird]

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ? :-j
:lol:

It's complex stuff, often, and I try to avoid unjustified simplifications. But to some degree it is the foreign language. I can understand English very well, but I cannot speak it myself so fluidly than many others. This makes me writing overly complicated phrases and sentence structures at times. No excuse, but an explanation.

[Skybird]

As for your views on other nations, mine in particular, please understand that i find them to be both inaccurate and condescendingly insulting, and suggestive of the superiority complex i have mentioned.

Hm, is it Germans or Americans trying to convince other foreign people and cultures that they have to copy their way of living, the understanding of what democracy truly is, and their cultural value system? How many wars america has started since end of WWII, although the US were not directly threatend, and how many has Germany started in that time? Is america or Germany blocking even minimal ecological protection protocols that wpould need adjustements of the industry? Who tries to prevent the court in La Hague, and why, Germany or America? Is it Germany that operates dozens and hundreds of military bases around the globe, ensuring global strike capability, or was it America? Had the recent UN general assembly been ruined by over 750 demands for substantial changes to the original plan - by America, or by Germany? I know, you are tempted to give plenty of reasonable arguments why your country's policy is ,like it is. But must the rest of the world necessarily agree with that self-defintion of yours? Must we all be indirectly American, seen that way, then?

I will not withdraw my critizism on political issues simply because someone feels offended by a disagreeing opinion or view. With that method all critizism there is could be silenced immediately, and this I do not accept. I take care not make it sound personal, and turn it into personal things, as long as I feel the other side is answering that favour in the same way. In Germany people are not so easily personally offended when ill-goings in German politics are critizised, at least I know none like that. We also don't declare our leaders holy, untouchable saints, there was one such leader, and that one was enough. Why it is so easy to personally offend Americans if one is adressing political aspects of their country i do not understand. We non-americans necessarily must have a bigger interest in events concerning your country, than you have for ours, for we get mujtliple times as much affected by effects caused by the US, as the other way around. If it is this or that foreign minstre in Germany is of minor importance for you, at best, but for us it makes a very big difference if it is a more left or a more right administration in the WH. But if that sensibility towards critizism, understood as something like countercontrol, should be the reason why critzism of politics should no longer be allowed for reasons of politeness, than I reject that and prefer to be regarded as unpolite, then. Nice sideeffect is that when I say something that sounds friendly in your ears you can assume that i really mean it and that it is not just shallow politeness on the surface. ;) :-j I often enough payed tribute to your nation'S constitutional values, for example, and I voiced many critizism of the present political conditions in convinced defense of this consitution, for I see a wide gap between what it is and what it should be. My respect for the historic document you can take as serious, and solid, for that reason. This does not mean that I must conclude that it is still the inner basis of the political shaping of your nation in the present, since let's say mid-20th century. you think it is, I think it is not. It simple is this issue for me, not more, not less. The question of if it is polite to question your opinion in this regard is not important. If you critizese the welfare system in Germany, for example, and give your reasons, I try to see it through your eyes, separate belief from information, and then eventually adress what I think is not correct in your thinking about us, and explain why it is how it is. As long as you don'T use word tricks, rethorics, rude manners to simply bully us out of the match i don't feel offended at all. There is enough in Germany, in personell as well as in institutions, laws, structures, you could hack away at if you are interested and where I even would lend you the axe all for free. :D Just keep politics and pesonal things separate. If you think I am just about attacking american politcs, then you are wrong. I question modern pllitics on a global scale. It's just that america often is in the cneter of debates here, and that it ia a more improtnat player than for example the politics of Luxembourg.

[Takeda Shingen]

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ? :-j

nah makes for a good read and you explain well :up:

Skybird's brevity of prose is probably lost in the same location as your shift and period keys. So, how's your German?

[Kapitan]

needs buffing up but i can speak a bit and french and russian and english how about you ?

[Skybird]

Da. Njet. Nastrowje. Doswidanja Rodina. Anything else I need in order to survive in Moscow? :D

[August]

Skybird i don't really care whether you withdraw your criticism or not, just don't expect anyone to believe anything you say.

I think you feel a compulsion to badmouth other nations as a way to mitigate by comparison your own nations history. "We're not so bad, just look at what your country did" really sums up the normal tone of your posts. America is just a convenient target for you since our own open self critique provides you with ready supply of ammunition.

[Kapitan]

skybird what can i say apart from NO sorry theres no J

NYET and DASVEDANYE

[Skybird]

Skybird i don't really care whether you withdraw your criticism or not, just don't expect anyone to believe anything you say.

I think you feel a compulsion to badmouth other nations as a way to mitigate by comparison your own nations history. "We're not so bad, just look at what your country did" really sums up the normal tone of your posts. America is just a convenient target for you since our own open self critique provides you with ready supply of ammunition.

You are basing on false assumption here: maybe because you really cannot imagine other people - me in this case - having far less nationalistic sentiments for their homecountries as you maybe have for yours. I'm neither especially patriotic, nor nationalistic. I'm simply not made for that kind emotions. I just don't like foul Nazi-cliches beeing used on us, that's as if I would say all americans are KuKluxKlan, all americans are Bush-loaylist, all amercians are this, or that. Or whatveer nationality you want to talk about. All Polish steal. All Russians drink. All Brtish are snobs. All french are softies. Etc.etc. Although you see that different - I don't think I use cliches on your people. I made observations that have formed my perception of the policy of your nation. Because I do not speak to much about your people, but politics. And when I target politics, I do not care if they are German or American or Europeans, they are either solid and well, or they aint. That at times one is aksing why this or that politician or policy receives support or is rejected by a people is only legitimate.

[Kapitan]

hey go by these rules

if you dont know what the other person is talking about just shut up and put up cause they probly do know what they talking about.

if you aint got something good to say dont say it

when your in the wrong admit it cause 9/10 it will come back and smack ya hard in the face

[Abraham]

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ? ...
Skybird's brevity of prose is probably lost in the same location as your shift and period keys.
Great sense of humor, Takeda Shingen!

[August]

You are basing on false assumption here: maybe because you really cannot imagine other people - me in this case - having far less nationalistic sentiments for their homecountries as you maybe have for yours. I'm neither especially patriotic, nor nationalistic. I'm simply not made for that kind emotions.

I indeed can imagine such people since i have occasionally met them here in my own country as well. They are that way for many reasons ranging from ignorance to narcissism, and often created by the fact they never had to earn any of the benefits our nation gives them. Most do not vote however and they are in the minority in any case.

This should not be confused by the ancient European concept of people and government being two separate entities. A concept bred by centuries of being treated as peasant chattel by kings and dictators for centuries. As a nation of immigrants who have fled such oppressive systems I believe we don't have inherent submissiveness to accept such a situation and God willing we never will.

I just don't like foul Nazi-cliches beeing used on us, that's as if I would say all americans are KuKluxKlan, all americans are Bush-loaylist, all amercians are this, or that. Or whatveer nationality you want to talk about. All Polish steal. All Russians drink. All Brtish are snobs. All french are softies. Etc.etc. Although you see that different - I don't think I use cliches on your people. I made observations that have formed my perception of the policy of your nation. Because I do not speak to much about your people, but politics. And when I target politics, I do not care if they are German or American or Europeans, they are either solid and well, or they aint. That at times one is aksing why this or that politician or policy receives support or is rejected by a people is only legitimate.

"At times", how about with every one of your posts? I can understand being fed up with the nazi-cliches but your counter attacks come off as just as deliberately biased and all inclusive.

[Takeda Shingen]

needs buffing up but i can speak a bit and french and russian and english how about you ?

Je parle français, allemand, italien, latin et anglais. On l'exige pour mon doctorat. Pourquoi demandez-vous cela?

[Kapitan]

why do i ask just curious you got a nice selection of languages there :up:

im étudiant seulement des maths et l'anglais plus pour l'officier dans la marine

[Skybird]

They are that way for many reasons ranging from ignorance to narcissism,

the way you put your reply sais more about your attitude, than about them...

That at times one is aksing why this or that politician or policy receives support or is rejected by a people is only legitimate.

"At times", how about with every one of your posts?

Be precise, and stick to the point then. Where did I question the last time the general reason of the american people directly, where did I ask a question like for example "These yanks are nuts all together, can someone tell me why they stick to a guy like Bush at all"? Even when going back for months of memories I cannot remember to have been that personally and directly towards your people.

Hey, I just watched a silly movie on TV, "Reign of Fire", an american film :cool:, and in one scene the one american actor said to the other american actor: "You know, the only thing in the world that is worse than dragons - are americans!" :-j :lol:

[August]

the way you put your reply sais more about your attitude, than about them...

A prime example of the pot calling the kettle black Skybird, yet you know nothing of my fellow countrymen nor how i feel about them.

As for the rest of your post how about instead of your little quote research assignment i just point it out to you every time i see you do it in the future.

[Damo1977]

Hey, I just watched a silly movie on TV, "Reign of Fire", an american film :cool:, and in one scene the one american actor said to the other american actor: "You know, the only thing in the world that is worse than dragons - are americans!" :-j :lol:

:lol: I saw "Reign Of Fire" at the cinemas when it first came out in Australia, in the whole cinema there were only 4 of us watching it. It was the best movie ever!!! :rotfl:

Skybird I wish you were around when I was at school. I would never have had a problem of reaching the target for the number of words in an essay ;)

[Abraham]

Hey, I just watched a silly movie on TV, "Reign of Fire", an american film :cool:, and in one scene the one american actor said to the other american actor: "You know, the only thing in the world that is worse than dragons - are americans!"
Ah, that's a solid source to base your anti-Americanism upon! One Hollywood actor talking to another one...
You've proved posting after posting that you don't understand the American mentality, but basing your anti Americanism upon a Hollywood script explains and excuses a lot of the nonsense you've been posting.
I happen to know about Americans, because I watched 'The Bold and the Beautifull', or was it 'As the World Turns'?
:rotfl: