Would you like to see a WW 1 U-Boat simulation ? [Archive]

Seeteufel

08-28-05, 10:38 AM

I certainly do! :yep:

...The Imperial German Navy started the war with 28 U-boats with an additional 344 commissioned.
In November 1918 no less than 226 boats were under construction.

The ease and skill with which the German engineers developed and built the most sophisticated warship of that time can only be admired.
Without any computer assistance, about 25 different types of U-boats for several different purposes - e.g. merchant submarines, long range cruisers, coastal and mine warfare vessels - had been designed.

More than 12,000,000 tons of shipping (5,000 ships) had been sunk by U-boats, with the loss of 15,000 lives. 60% of that tonnage was sunk by 22 commanders, the most successful ones were:

Lothar von Arnauld de la Periere 454,000 tons
Walther Forstmann 380,000 tons
Max Valentiner 300,000 tons
Otto Steinbrinck 290,000 tons
Hans Rose 214,000 tons
Reinhold Saltzwedel 170,000 tons
Waldemar Kophamel 149,000 tons...
( read more on uboat.net - His Imperial German Majesty's U-Bpoats in WW 1 (http://uboat.net/history/wwi/) )

This has some potential in it, doesn't it ?
Many different U-Boats, good old great looking warships and merchant-steamers / sailing ships, Airships, and so on...

To get in the right "WW 1 mood", you could read this very interesting Diary of a U−boat Commander (http://www.blackmask.com/books120c/7dubcdex.htm).

...Slowly the periscope was raised and I held my breath; a groan came from Alten and he turned away. For a
fraction of a second I was almost pleased at his obvious pain, then, sick with disappointment, I took his place.

Yes! it was all over. There they were, and with hungry eyes and depressed heart I saw five great battle
cruisers, of which I recognized the Tiger with her three great funnels, the Princess Royal, Lion and two others,
zigzagging along at 25 knots, at a distance of 12,000 metres, across our bow.

They were surrounded by a numerous screen of destroyers and light cruisers, the former at that range through
the periscope appearing as black smudges.

It is not often one is permitted such a spectacle in modern war, and I could not tear myself away from the
sight of those great brutes, whom I had fought when in the Derflingger at Dogger Bank and again when in the
Koenig at Jutland. So near and yet so far, and as they rapidly drew away so did all the visions of an Iron
Cross. As soon as they were out of sight, we surfaced in order to report what we had seen to Zeebrugge and
Heligoland....

So - anyone else out there waiting for a WW 1 U-Boat simulation ? :hmm:

Syxx_Killer

08-28-05, 10:42 AM

I would certainly be interested. I'd get it just to watch the graceful four-pipe ocean liners. :88)

Seeteufel

08-28-05, 10:47 AM

I've just discovered that Deamon and his team are already working on a WW 1 U-Boat sim...just great !
Look here (http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/main.htm) for details of the Imperial U-Flotilla 1914-1918. :D

...Shame on me, they even got their own Forum (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=16) on subsim - and I didn't notice... :oops:

Ula Jolly

08-28-05, 10:49 AM

I would pay my butt off :D

EsPECIALLY if it shared the SH3 engine.

Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

08-28-05, 11:02 AM

YES!!!

--Mike

Curval

08-28-05, 11:04 AM

I'd definately buy it.

baxter

08-28-05, 01:15 PM

I would certainly be interested.

gdogghenrikson

08-28-05, 01:17 PM

I would certainly be interested.

me too :up:

Happy Times

08-28-05, 01:42 PM

I have also thought about this :hmm: So yes,i would get it.

CB..

08-28-05, 01:47 PM

some of the Brit WW1 subs were capable of Type XXI performance aswell

the R class killer subs had a top submerged speed of 15 knots (only 9 knots surfaced tho !)
allso quite a lot of sub versus sub action was normal so scope for very varied sorties

Deamon

08-28-05, 02:10 PM

Ahoy gentleman,

i curtainly like threads like this :D

Always good to meet some WWI fellows. May i ask you gentleman what attracted your interst in WWI u-boats ?

This has some potential in it, doesn't it ?
Many different U-Boats, good old great looking warships and merchant-steamers / sailing ships, Airships, and so on...

I tell ya. WWI covers a wide range of technology from very poor u-boats to very sophisticated once. It must be very delicate to experiance this evolution. Starting with the good ole U1 and than move up through U35, U93, U139 and more. There is alot to do for us. But i'm sure gentle man that you will be very buissy with just one of my u-boats i make, given the high fidelity i modeling them in. It will take its time tough.

To get in the right "WW 1 mood", you could read this very interesting Diary of a U−boat Commander (http://www.blackmask.com/books120c/7dubcdex.htm).

This one is better, it's with images:

http://gutenberg.kk.dk/etext05/8dubc10h.zip

But to get even more in the right mood you gentlemean should get the book "Raiders of the Deep". It will blow you away!

How do you like my articles, gentleman ? Especialy my recently upgraded U1 article. I will upgrade the U31 article during the next month too. More stuff is planed till the end of the year. Stay tuned.

Cheers,
Deamon

2019

08-28-05, 02:22 PM

Nah, it look like a another crappy acadish game to me.

:Rant: :Rant:

read my sig
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Deamon

08-28-05, 02:27 PM

I would certainly be interested. I'd get it just to watch the graceful four-pipe ocean liners. :88)

graceful is the right term. I especialy love this white painted cruisers with 2-4 funnels, the characteristical ramming bow and lot of ditails and art.

WWI has a very romantical ambiance :)

I would pay my butt off :D

EsPECIALLY if it shared the SH3 engine.

I guess they will not give us their engine and we are assambeling our own from the fine engines that are available in the open source community. We also need to be able to adjust the engine exactly to our extravagant needings.

some of the Brit WW1 subs were capable of Type XXI performance aswell

the R class killer subs had a top submerged speed of 15 knots (only 9 knots surfaced tho !)
allso quite a lot of sub versus sub action was normal so scope for very varied sorties

To true i'm a big fan of varied missions. And i see here a big potential in WWI :)

I'm also a very hardcore fan, may i ask you gentleman how mutch you woul dappreciate a realy hardcore sim ?

Cheers,
Deamon

Syxx_Killer

08-28-05, 02:37 PM

I'm also a very hardcore fan, may i ask you gentleman how mutch you woul dappreciate a realy hardcore sim ?

Well, I probably wouldn't be classified as a hardcore simmer. I'm more casual with my games and sims especially. A nice, wide array of options would be needed. :88) :yep:

Deamon

08-28-05, 03:25 PM

Well, I probably wouldn't be classified as a hardcore simmer. I'm more casual with my games and sims especially.

Hmm, than you like sims like enigma rising tide ?

A nice, wide array of options would be needed. :88) :yep:

Hmm, that might be a challange, couse i aim for highest possible realism and challange with a very comprehensive training of the player. :hmm:

The training alone is like a big campaign! And will pull you through all areas of submarine warfare. I hope that won't be to hard for you. :hmm:

EDIT: I might add options but it still would require some knowledge you will have to go through in the virtual academy. My sim is suppose to be like falcon 4. The diving alone will be quite a comprehensive process.

It curtainly won't be like in SHIII where you push a button and are under water 30 seconds later. In IUF you will have to deal mutch more with your submarine alone. You will have to know alot and will learn alot. Learning is actualy one of the main purpuoses of my project. I want to simulate the operational, tactical and even nautical aspects to highest possible level of ditail and i hope casual gamers will not be overwhelmed with the responsibilitie they will be exposed to, especialy in sutch a technicaly poor equiped sub like U 1 :arrgh!:

Driving U 1 will be a big challange in many regards i can tell you :yep:

Deamon

Syxx_Killer

08-28-05, 04:13 PM

Hmm, than you like sims like enigma rising tide ?

I've never played it or even researched it. I just know that it seems a bit arcadish for my tastes. I like realism, but games like Flanker just drove me nuts. I eventually just gave up on it. I also have Dangerous Waters and that is highly technical. I enjoy that game a lot. I guess I will just have to read the reviews when your game is released. ;) :know:

Capn Tucker

08-28-05, 04:24 PM

WW1? Oh yeah! Any WW1 game would be great; the "Great War" is virtually forgotten today. Nearly everything going on today can be traced back to the events of 1914-18...

Deamon

08-28-05, 04:32 PM

I like realism, but games like Flanker just drove me nuts. I eventually just gave up on it.

Ever played falcon 4 SP4 ?

I also have Dangerous Waters and that is highly technical. I enjoy that game a lot. I guess I will just have to read the reviews when your game is released. ;) :know:

Well, when you like DW than you might will like my sim too.

Deamon

Deamon

08-28-05, 04:34 PM

WW1? Oh yeah! Any WW1 game would be great; the "Great War" is virtually forgotten today.

Oh yes, it's time to make a memorial for it. I think WWII overshadowed the great war in the memory of the people..

Nearly everything going on today can be traced back to the events of 1914-18...

Sounds like you know alot about history ?

Deamon

enigma-e

08-28-05, 05:07 PM

Deamon

08-28-05, 05:28 PM

And just where would be the challenge?

Just everywhere. It's starts already on your way to the patrol area.

Just banging off steamers w/o any destroyers or other vessels being a serious threat is... tedious, to say the very least. http://www.astroalley.com/emoticons/pirateNo.gif

If it would be that way than it would be indeed boring in the long term. But our imaginations seem to deviate far from eatch other.

How mutch do you know about WWI submarine warfare ?

Syxx_Killer

08-28-05, 06:25 PM

Ever played falcon 4 SP4 ?

Nope. I wanted to get Falcon 4 back in the day, but reading about all the bugs steered be away from it.

Well, when you like DW than you might will like my sim too.

Here's to hoping! :()1:

How is the campaign going to be in your game? Will it be a dynamic one? How many are actually working on it? The game sounds great, and I applaud your efforts, but (and I hope I don't offend you) do you think having it being so detailed and realistic may be a bit ambitious? If it is so detailed and realistic, how long do you expect to be developing it? Will there be a publisher or anything along that nature? Will it be open for modifications like SH3? For acquiring firing solutions, will there be an automated way of doing it? I'm horribly bad at figuring that kind of thing out (although I can do manual TMA on SC and DW; go figure). :oops: Sorry for all the questions, but I'm starting to get a big excited. :lol: :|\

Joe S

08-28-05, 07:47 PM

Not me, I want a WWII Us sub sim, an update of SH I. Joe S

Nightowl

08-28-05, 08:00 PM

akula_krieg

08-28-05, 08:21 PM

What is the estimated release date for this sim?

-akula-

Deamon

08-28-05, 08:41 PM

Nope. I wanted to get Falcon 4 back in the day, but reading about all the bugs steered be away from it.

Than you missed something. The out of the Box falcon sucked but after all patches and SP's it's the best sim ever. But i think Falcon 5 is out now with all the SP mods in it.

How is the campaign going to be in your game? Will it be a dynamic one?

In the Major release i aim for a dynamic campaign. But prior to that there will be a prerelease, that deals with the training only. It turns out to be so comprehensive that it's worth an own releas. That should easy the pain of waiting for all the harcore enthusiasts and definately gears towards hardcoer enthusiasts.

So the plan is to make a prereleas or what i call the academy edition, that deals like i told with the training of the player only and when it will turn out what i aim it to be than you will need quite some preparation befor you can go to real war duty in the major release. Oh man the diving manual alone is 84 pages long HA :88) I might make it a bit shorter though.

By making this prerelease i can reduce the developement bulk dramaticaly so that it becomes achievable for a small ambitious team. The prerelease will feature U 1 as the only driveable sub so that i can concentrate all my efforts on this one sub. So it will be a high fidelity model and fully functional. I hate average stuff, i hate it. I want a sub with every bolt and every neat and fully functional. So in the academy edition you will be trained and edjucated for your future command and after you have qualified you get your command assigned and can start to train your new crew, participate on fleet manouvers and stuff.

The team is still to small but i have no doubt that it will grow mutch more, especialy after i launch the prerelease.

Anyway when the team is big enough after the prerelease i head towards the major release that is than supposed to become a fully fledged sim with the actual war campaign and will feature at least U35 as your actual war duty sub. You can import than your carrer that you have start in the academy edition and the crew that you have trained and continue it in the major releas and your new u-boat, while U 1 gets back to the submarine schooö :)

This is a long term developement and it turns out to be worth to be so persistant. I'm an insane u-boat nut and i live and breath this project, i hardly can think on anything else, i even stoped playing just to have more time for my project. I spended 2 years to lay the foundation for the project and have a solid base now for the development. The most important researches are made now the whole design work is finished now the team grows, my coder prepares the engine, it looks good so far. I'm ready now for the actual developement.

How many are actually working on it?

Regularly 3, a new one has joined but it's to early to judge his activities and the other 2 contribute with important researches form time to time.

The game sounds great, and I applaud your efforts, but (and I hope I don't offend you) do you think having it being so detailed and realistic may be a bit ambitious?

Oh yes it's "to" ambitious. Of course i'm not blinde and see what a big effort sutch a sim is but i have explained above how i plan to achiev it. So far i could come up with a solution for almost everything. I will stick with the developement as long as it will be necessery. That's why i go with the artwork in to the fullest. I aim for the high end specs when the prereleas will be finished it will be already average hardware.

When you read carefully on my site about the project than you will see that the scope of the sim is realy beyoned pure gaming. This projet is a simulation, a museum, a library and a memorial all in one. It's not unlikey that it will be part of museums that offer virtual demonstrations.

If it is so detailed and realistic, how long do you expect to be developing it?

That realy depends on how mutch the team will grow in the future. But it will take some additional years. Very roughly i would say 3-5 years. I want to stay away of giving to optimistical promesses and than disapoint the audiance.

Will there be a publisher or anything along that nature?

This is a question i haven't fully solved couse it's to early for that but when i go for a publisher than it will be most likely Battlefront but i also consider to self distribute it via download or something if this will be possible.

Will it be open for modifications like SH3?

Oh yes. I especialy count on the community and follow the operation flashpoint modability tradition here. The community will get my full suport so that they can include their own models and their own driveable subs and stuff.

For acquiring firing solutions, will there be an automated way of doing it?

:hmm:

Work out the fire solution is one of the most interesting parts of the sim. Don't you spoil your self the tactical fun with this ?

Besides that in the virtual academy you will deal with it in depth and will have planty of opportunities to work it out step by step. So at the end you might not needing it.

I develope the sim as a pure hardcore sim and when it's finished and tested throughoutly i wll see than whitch options should be added. I will see than how i can make it caasual gamer friendly.

I'm horribly bad at figuring that kind of thing out

Than you need more training! :)

And that is what the academy edition is supposed to be for.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm starting to get a big excited. :lol: :|\

A big or a bit exciting ?

You see i'm excited too, i just love this subject. :D

don1reed

08-28-05, 08:45 PM

How much longer, Deamon? I've been dusting off my Lowell Thomas' "Raiders" and Lawrence's "7 Pillars". :up:

Deamon

08-28-05, 08:49 PM

Not me, I want a WWII Us sub sim, an update of SH I. Joe S
Yeah, I'm with Joe S, I like WWII sub sims on both sides, would rather have an updated American sub sim than WWI and/or improved SH3 with all the goodies that were left out... -Nightowl :cool:

Well there is still no perfect WWII subsim. Given that i can understand your desire. But a small indi team cannot compete with the big players on the WWII marked. So very hesitantly i choosed WWI and don't regret it any bit now, given that that it's so refreshing different.

Deamon

Deamon

08-28-05, 08:51 PM

How much longer, Deamon?

Waiting suck huh ? :lol:

I will send you the alpha as soon as it's finished ;)

I've been dusting off my Lowell Thomas' "Raiders" and Lawrence's "7 Pillars". :up:

Hehe, what is "7 Pillars"

Deamon

Syxx_Killer

08-28-05, 09:06 PM

I sure hope the training is good. I'll need it. :lol: Yes, I did mean to say bit instead of big. :oops:

I think a WWI sim is a great idea. To be honest, I've always been more interested in the Atlantic campaigns over the Pacific. I don't ever recall a WWI U-boat sim. To see ships from that era and such will be a welcome change. Instead of being in command of BdU, Doenitz would be your fellow submariner. :lol:

Will there be ships like Lusitania (and her sister, Mauritania) or the Titanic's forgotten sister, the Britannic (was a hospital ship in WWI). I think to this day it is debated if Britannic was sunk by mines or torpeoes. She lay on her side in shallow water. I remember seeing the Robert Ballard documentary. He was the one who discovered Titanic in 1985. When Ballard discovered Britannic, she was in remarkable condition and laying on her side. If I remember correctly, there was a nurse who survived the Britannic disaster but who was also on Titanic and Lusitania (and maybe Olympic). When Britannic sank, she didn't have any wounded; just the medical personnel. If she were fully loaded, the loss of life would have been huge. See, now I started rambling. :lol:

Wasn't Olympic a troop ship during the war? Was Mauritania? I think they were.

Deamon

08-28-05, 09:23 PM

I sure hope the training is good. I'll need it.

Actualy the lack of training in other sims pisses me of. I want to close this gap in my sim forever.

I think a WWI sim is a great idea. To be honest, I've always been more interested in the Atlantic campaigns over the Pacific.

Oh yeah and what about the east see, medeterranien sea and the black sea ?

I don't ever recall a WWI U-boat sim.

There never was one, i think. It's pretty easy to finde planty of informations about WWII submarines but when it comes down to WWI subs, especialy the german once than whole situation is different.

To see ships from that era and such will be a welcome change.

Oh yeah. There are many other things different to. Still many Sailing ships for example and sailing steamers, diferent buildings. At all a different kinde of warfare with other focuses.

Instead of being in command of BdU, Doenitz would be your fellow submariner. :lol:

LOL A good point. You bring me on a good idea!

Will there be ships like Lusitania

Give me the plans and it will be there.

If she were fully loaded, the loss of life would have been huge. See, now I started rambling. :lol:

Actualy i would like to add "difficult decissions" for the player in the sim.

Wasn't Olympic a troop ship during the war? Was Mauritania? I think they were.

There is alot of trickery going on in the war. I would like to reflect his in the sim and leave up the decission to the player :D

Deamon

TreverSlyFox

08-29-05, 01:56 AM

Floater

08-29-05, 07:59 AM

May i ask you gentleman what attracted your interst in WWI u-boats ?
You did. ;)

Deamon

08-29-05, 09:28 AM

Mmmmmmmm, a WWI Sub game would be really great. I've always had a thing for the Great War, the last war where Honor still ment something. I spent hours and hours playing Red Baron II and flying a Fokker D. VII over Verdun. At that time you could play on-line with a dial-up connection.

I played alot wings. And Red Baron a couple of times, can't remember whitch it was.

I take it we're looking at a year at least before the Academy Edition will be ready to Beta Test. When your ready for testing let us know, we'll gladly put it through the paces and let you know what we think, what we like, and what doesn't work. :up:

Thanks for the offer. When the time has come i will need a bunch of testers :up:

May i ask you gentleman what attracted your interst in WWI u-boats ?
You did. ;)

:arrgh!:

I did you a favour and opened a whole new experiance for you :lol:

BTW: How are the U118 scans comming along ?

Deamon

BettingUrlife

08-29-05, 10:21 AM

I'm with Joe and Night, after another WW2 theatre based game.

Beery

08-29-05, 01:24 PM

I am very interested in WW1 U-boats. In fact anything WW1 is generally more interesting to me than WW2. WW2 is so overdone it isn't even funny anymore. I'm tired of it.

CWorth

08-29-05, 01:54 PM

I am very interested in WW1 U-boats. In fact anything WW1 is generally more interesting to me than WW2. WW2 is so overdone it isn't even funny anymore. I'm tired of it.

I have to agree with Beery here...The WW2 theme has become such an overused and overdone time period that I too am tired of seeing them.

I look forward to any WW1 themed game.

The last and really only WW1 game I have ever played was the 1993 naval warfare game "Jutland" that was made by Software Sorcery.
http://mohaaoutpost.homestead.com/files/jutland.gif

CCIP

08-29-05, 02:11 PM

I am very interested in WW1 U-boats. In fact anything WW1 is generally more interesting to me than WW2. WW2 is so overdone it isn't even funny anymore. I'm tired of it.

Well, nothing is too overdone in Subsims, seeing how we only really have one current WWII subsim...

...but hey, I totally agree that WWI has many, many draws that have been totally ignored. The fact that such major technologies as submarines and aircraft were first used there - developing tactics and missions as they went along in combat - makes it very exciting from a simulation standpoint, cause you get to discover this stuff all on your own as you go along, too. There's not a lot of dynamism in the trenches, but in the sea and on the sky - there's a huge potential for all sorts of very realistic 'what ifs'. :)

Beery

08-29-05, 04:26 PM

Well, nothing is too overdone in Subsims, seeing how we only really have one current WWII subsim...

I was thinking more along the lines of all the WW2 FPS games out there. The latest Battlefield, Medal of Honor, and endless other WW2 shooter clones leave me cold. I grabbed Star Wars Battlefront because it was something a bit different - anything to stay away from WW2. I've yet to pick up any of the latest batch of WW2 shooters. The last one I bought was Hidden and Dangerous, and that was enough of WW2 land combat to last me a good few years. If they came out with a game of the Raid on St Nazaire I might pick that one up, but everything else I can do just fine without.

As for U-boat sims, I'm happy with SH3 - it gives me all the WW2 sub action I need. For me, if the next sub sim is a choice between a Pacific WW2 sim and a WW1 sub sim, I'd choose WW1 with no hesitation.

Happy Times

08-29-05, 04:39 PM

I dont play FPS games either,i dont like beeng in a "tube".I like to roam free.Im expecting a OP flashpoint mod thats situated in ww2 Finland. http://koti.mbnet.fi/fdfmod/archive.html I think it has potential.

Type941

08-29-05, 05:35 PM

in short - yes, I would love to see this mod. Less air problems. compensated by a much more challenging u-boat.

And of course the old ocean liners - i still admire auxillary cruisers in SH3 because they look 'old skool'. Than I sink them. :arrgh!:

Frank

08-29-05, 08:15 PM

I for one would love a WWI subsim.

Frank

Takeda Shingen

08-30-05, 07:01 AM

I agree with Frank. I would also like to see a new WWII sim in the Pacific, but I hope that SHIV will take care of that.

Floater

08-30-05, 09:17 AM

BTW: How are the U118 scans comming along ?
Don't worry - I haven't forgotten. ;)

Before I can hook the scanner up, I've got to clear space for it, and my study is in an awful mess, so I'll have to sort that out. It's still the summer holidays here, so my wife (a teacher) and kids are at home, and I don't get much time until late at night.

kiwi_2005

08-30-05, 09:51 AM

Why theres never been a British sub sim or even a mod. When sh2 came out the modders put out a US mod. I aint british, but would like to try out a pom ww2 sub. I read a true story about the British Sub "Unbroken" P.42 a U-Class Boat , one of its best achivements was the sinking of two Italian cruisers in the Med. After the war it got given to the russians and renamed the V-2. The British S-class subs look very impressive.
A British sub mod for SH3 would be great. and knowing later on someone would put out a realism pommy accent voice over for realism .Could ya imagine that.
Subs included in the mod: S and U Classes.
Missions: lurk just outside lorient waiting for the uboats to happily sail by :arrgh!:

Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

08-30-05, 09:57 AM

i'm kinda liking the idea of a wwi sub sim... by it's very nature i think it would be more a hands on thing... and more close quartered combat...

yeah... this would be good... :up:

not to say that a wwii pacific theatre action, or some Brit subs in the med wouldn't be choice stuff as well... but the work i've seen on the site sure looks like something i'd like to sail around in...

--Mike

2019

08-30-05, 01:10 PM

in short - yes, I would love to see this mod.

How do you mean this MOD?

We're not talking about a mod here.

Deamon

08-30-05, 04:56 PM

I agree with Frank. I would also like to see a new WWII sim in the Pacific, but I hope that SHIV will take care of that.

Silent Service III will take care of that for sure.

Deamon

Deamon

08-30-05, 05:16 PM

People i'm very pleased to see so mutch interest for a WWI sim. But i'm woundering how representative that is ?

@Berry

Hey Berry you are a Mod master ? What are you moding ?

in short - yes, I would love to see this mod.

Mod ? Have i missed something :lol:

i'm kinda liking the idea of a wwi sub sim... by it's very nature i think it would be more a hands on thing... and more close quartered combat...

Well that's true. At least closer than in WWII.

yeah... this would be good... :up:

As i'm deep in this subject i can say there is alot of new and different challenges especialy when you would extend the scope of the game beyoned of what is usualy presented in the games. It finde it also very thrilling to explore the origins of the u-boat warfare. In wwi there are somewhat different technical conditions under that you play. And you have to deal mutch more with nets and minesfields.

but the work i've seen on the site sure looks like something i'd like to sail around in...

My site ?

Deamon

Charos

08-30-05, 06:26 PM

May i ask you gentleman what attracted your interst in WWI u-boats ?
You did. ;)

Fully agree with Floater - I never really gave much thought to WW1 Subs until your development tweeked my interest in the Subject .

I would buy a Sim like this in an instant and I know of several others in my Flight Sim squad who would do likewise.

I find in the games I play these days that its all in the details -- the more the better.

I think as the average age of the gameing community shifts ever older the need for games like yours will become greater.

I hope you are able to complete what appears to me to be an amazing theatre, rich in immersion that cant help but draw anybody in .

Signed :

Future Customer.

Deamon

08-30-05, 10:15 PM

Fully agree with Floater - I never really gave much thought to WW1 Subs until your development tweeked my interest in the Subject.

:o

What have i done.

I can't express in words how mutch i feel honored now. At the beginning of my submarine advanture i also had no interest in WWI subs and i also knew absolut nothing about WWI subs and as i was about to start my own cold war submarines project, circumstances leaded me finaly to a WWI project and as i started to research i realized very quickly how special this particular subject is. Everyone who have read at least raiders of the deep know what i mean. But else may i sugget this reading here:

http://gutenberg.kk.dk/etext05/8dubc10h.zip

My interest grew more the more i learned about it. Now i'm so lost in it that there is no way back for me anymore. It feels now so familiar to me, mutch as i would have been there. My interest in submarines were rather tacticaly and something mysterious attracted me but this particular subject has touched my heart. I never have experianced something similar in any other subject. I can't explain it but it's only with this particular subject that way. It feels very alive for me, not like you would learn just someting new but i experiance it like distant memories that returning back. I finde this very mysterious. Is here someone who feels the same ?

Anyway this spirit guides me through this project and i try to arrange the sim in a way that it causes in the player the same feeling and i'm woundering whether i will succeed in this.

I see my peoject as a virtual memorial, for all u-boat man who gaved their live and loyality in the great war. I feel a close spiritual tie to thous man. I can't explain why, maybe because of their chivalry and bold spirit that have imposed me. One of the reasons why i aim for sutch a high level of ditail is because as an expression of the respect to thous man and to this spirit.

May i ask you why you feel tweeked by my work, is this because of the level of ditail and the coprehensiveness i want to treat this subject in or do you maybe feel something similar like me ?

I would buy a Sim like this in an instant and I know of several others in my Flight Sim squad who would do likewise.

I find in the games I play these days that its all in the details -- the more the better.

I think as the average age of the gameing community shifts ever older the need for games like yours will become greater.

That's exactly how i think. The people grew up and the pretensions grew with them. My pretensions are very high and i was concerned whether people will not be overwhelmed by all the ditails and things they will have to deal with and take care of, also is this subject mutch less known and my expectations about how broad the audiance would be are rather shy.

I'm somewhat surprized about all the positive feedback in this thread. I appreciate it.

As i learned alot about this subject i become immediately aware of that if more people would learn something about this subject that they would become interesting in it. But i think the problem is that to many simply don't know anything about it and thus have no interest in it. The most informations you finde today are about WWII subs. The informations about WWI u-boats are mutch mutch fewer especialy about the german ones. So i thought if i could give more insightes to the people than mutch more might become interested in it, so i came to the idea to build up a history site by the time that deals with WWI u-boats in a depth you will finde nowhere else on the net.

Luckily i'm in a privileged position when it comes down to informations on this subject and i thought i would pass this informations via my site and via my sim to the public. That way i can maybe draw a broader audiance in to it.

I hope you are able to complete what appears to me to be an amazing theatre, rich in immersion that cant help but draw anybody in .

Signed :

Future Customer.

You start to sound like me :lol:

Ho man i feel i have infected you :lol:

Shall i maybe show you something that will draw you even more in ?

I'm curious how old you are ? You seem to be older right ?

I guess it will be mainly the older guys who will especialy like our project.

Anyway this is a longterm dedication. It might become my lifework. There are many problems to solve along this project but i'm willing to do it. It just might take it's time and so far i could have solve any problem.

But thank you for your good wishes. I hope you won't be disappointed.

regards,
Deamon

Charos

08-31-05, 03:20 AM

May i ask you why you feel tweeked by my work, is this because of the level of ditail and the coprehensiveness i want to treat this subject in or do you maybe feel something similar like me ?

To be honest the first thing that grabbed me was your attention to detail and your desire to make a real simulation rather than a half hearted Game. Only after seeing the project am I now starting to look at WW1 U-boats.

That's exactly how i think. The people grew up and the pretensions grew with them. My pretensions are very high and i was concerned whether people will not be overwhelmed by all the ditails and things they will have to deal with and take care of, also is this subject mutch less known and my expectations about how broad the audiance would be are rather shy.

I'm somewhat surprized about all the positive feedback in this thread. I appreciate it.

I think in General people of today are simply further removed in time from WW1 than WW2 and have less connection to the people, incidents and events of that time. Not only that but WW1 is not popularised in the media such as books and movies as WW2 is.

I'm curious how old you are ? You seem to be older right ?

I guess it will be mainly the older guys who will especialy like our project.

Im 36 YO and I agree your target audiance will be the older players who have been there done that and are looking for something MORE.

Anyway this is a longterm dedication. It might become my lifework. There are many problems to solve along this project but i'm willing to do it. It just might take it's time and so far i could have solve any problem.

But thank you for your good wishes. I hope you won't be disappointed.

regards,
Deamon

Your welcome, It doesnt matter how long it takes - the best things in life by there very nature take the longest to achieve.
Even if we never complete them at least we tried thats all anyone can ever ask of us.

Seminole

08-31-05, 08:06 AM

No...not really.

Pharaoh49

08-31-05, 08:54 AM

Just read this post for the first time and what can I say other than, "Wunderbar! Ausgezeichnet!"

The only thing that could be better than this is a time machine so that I could go back to where I belong.

The wife and I both love history and focus a lot of our reading on the late Victorian era, the following Edwardian period and the rise of the gangsters in the twenties and early thirties.

I sometimes feel like a creature out of it's element with modern technology; and chivalry?, now there is an extremely rare commodity in the times we now live in.

I have always loved the classic lines of the 'steamers' of that period (early 1900's) and always enjoy seeing them in movies. A few that come to mind are the "Blucher" in "Shout at the Devil" and has anyone ever seen "Legend of 1900?" A story of a man who abandoned as a newborn infant, grows up entirely on board this ship, never leaving it. A fantastic movie and lots of wonderful footage of a beautiful old steamer. Oh my, now I'm getting melancholy. Where's that time machine?

Having always had a fascination with U-boats, even going as far as to design my own homebuilt submersible back in the seventies (it never got finished), this sim would be my virtual time-machine; letting me go back and rub elbows with my ancestors.

I pray that you do not give up on this project and will certainly be watching for it's release. I can only hope that I will be so lucky to be one of your early testers. The immersive depth ( no pun intended) that academy training alone will be awesome.

Please! Don't stop!

don1reed

08-31-05, 09:15 AM

@Deamon:

SEVEN PILLARS OF WISDOM by T.E. Lawrence a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia.

...everything that is happening today is a direct result of WWI.

Much Success!!

Don

Beery

08-31-05, 09:21 AM

@Deamon:

SEVEN PILLARS OF WISDOM by T.E. Lawrence a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia.

...everything that is happening today is a direct result of WWI.

Very true, and true of the history of Europe in the 20th Century. WW1 was 'The Great War'. WW2 and the Cold War were just the sequels - continuations (or repercussions) of WW1.

braunbecker

08-31-05, 09:25 AM

double posting

braunbecker

08-31-05, 09:48 AM

off topic alert

SEVEN PILLARS OF WISDOM by T.E. Lawrence a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia.

...everything that is happening today is a direct result of WWI.
I find that a lacking remark of Lawrence and I sense a fundamental positivistic attitude
you can also say that the theoretical concept ' big bang ' is the direct cause of today but that is an abstractism of todays events/people etc.

.... that's only half the truth : people after the world war one made their part also. It is very narrowminded to neglect people s originality. Its the typical positivistic attitude that everything can be predicted : p -> q . 'Where am I in the whole story, Human actions are not fully explained with p->q : my actions are never completely predicted' It is true that a culture may change because of a war and the results of it, the treaty of versailles for example but every social science agrees that humans are not like for example nature events. It is also possible to interpretate that statement of Lawrence as an excuse that can be used to blame world war one for the event world war 2, it watches the whole existence as concepts and ideals. I hate every positivistic attitude used on human events, personalities etc. and i feel that this is the fundamental premisse of Lawrence
It is true that world war 2 is partially the result of world war one

Beery

08-31-05, 09:49 AM

Positivistic or not, we're just talking. No one is downplaying anyone's contributions to history. We're just pointing out links to an important period (WW1) that is often dismissed as unimportant by historians and people generally. Is it not just as much a failing to refuse to acknowledge the links of history - to assume that nothing has any root cause?

Besides, there is no excuse for rudeness. Calling someone stupid is not acceptable on these forums. You are acting like a troll.

braunbecker

08-31-05, 09:52 AM

Where am I being rude? I was attacking the ideas of Lawrence, not a forum member? Im very sorry that I do not agree :doh:

I did not say there are no causal relations possible

Beery

08-31-05, 09:55 AM

Where am I being rude? I was attacking the ideas of Lawrence, not a forum member? Im very sorry that I do not agree :doh:

This is sophistry. Labels don't make arguments. Calling an argument stupid is the same as calling the person who made the argument stupid. Whether or not it was a forum member is irrelevant - when the forum member agrees with the quote, and you call the quote 'stupid', you are calling the forum member stupid. It's indirect, but it's a flame nonetheless. I'm beginning to see why you don't appreciate the causal links of history. It seems you don't want to see such links in discussions either.

braunbecker

08-31-05, 10:01 AM

I pointed out that Lawrence premisse is too simplistic and shows a positivistic attitude used on grounds where a positivistic attitude fails : human events etc.. I do not attack a person, I attack an IDEA, it's too simplistic to say that one event is the direct cause of my own/your life. What about my personality, my own history.

So if I follow the statement "everything that is happening today is a direct result of WWI": If I change for example my government that is the direct result of the world one ?????

I edited my previous sentence : a 'lacking' argument instead of a 'stupid' argument :)

Im sorry I went off-topic. Please continue with the topic :up:

don1reed

08-31-05, 10:24 AM

@Deamon:

...hmmm...sounds like I should have PM'd ya... :lol:

magick

08-31-05, 03:44 PM

yes a WW1 subsim would be fun but to easy I think after you played SH3, a Destroyer Command 2 that would be real fun... http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/8628/hochseeflotte3uk.jpg (http://imageshack.us) http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2793/vlaamsevlagmiddelgroot9rr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Deamon

08-31-05, 06:09 PM

yes a WW1 subsim would be fun but to easy I think after you played SH3,

No it's a different kinde of challange that awaits you in a WWI sim. It's not directly compareable with SHIII. I can tell you that IUF will be anything else than easy. It already starts with diving. You won't be able to push a button and down you go but you will have to learn how to do it first theoreticaly and than practicaly. I'm going to implement an authentical diving proccedure. And then there are many many more challanges from all the other areas of submarine operations.

Deamon

Charos

08-31-05, 08:44 PM

yes a WW1 subsim would be fun but to easy I think after you played SH3, a Destroyer Command 2 that would be real fun...

Daemon has already said that "the diving manual alone is 84 pages long" if this compares to be "too easy" compared to pressing "D" or "P" in SH3 then I think your missing something.

Getting a WW1 era submarine and its crew home safely would be anything but easy.

Deamon

08-31-05, 09:58 PM

Daemon has already said that "the diving manual alone is 84 pages long" if this compares to be "too easy" compared to pressing "D" or "P" in SH3 then I think your missing something.

Exactly, but i think i must explain what i mean with "diving manual", just to make sure that there are no missunderstandings. The 84 Pages don't refer to the diving process alone but it contains everything that concerns submerged operations, this are things like rig ship for dive proccedure, tightness test, test dive, crash dive, bottom the boat, release from the ground again, surfacing, behaviar in difficult situations, commands etc. The diving itself can be explained on two pages(leave out all preparations like rig ship for dive and the tightness test). Crash dive is treatet with 7 pages for example.

Getting a WW1 era submarine and its crew home safely would be anything but easy.

Thats correct. Other sims deal almost only with the tactical aspects of u-boats. But i want to deal with the other aspects as well like, navigation nautical and technical aspects. You will be too buissy with your boat and crew and you will have to do brief planing before you go to the sea with clear orders and rules of engagements. And not to mention the big academy curriculum you will have to go through before you go anywhere.

Minefields and all kinde of barriers will be of a major concern for you adding to that a realistic navigation and there you have your challange already by navigating in dangerous waters. To the tactical aspect i want to give a new depth. There are so many ditails you will have to deal with this time, moving in areas full with mines and nets will recuire from you a maximal situational awareness. I project a planty of room for this detective games. Don't think you can dive around and shoot poor merchants like ducks in IUF. Especialy when you operate close to the british coast and naval bases then expect all hell breaks loose when you sink a lonely merchant, you will have to run like a little girl after that or and especialy in calm sees you will find yourself encircled by dozens or hundreds of vehicles of all types that occupies an area that is large than you battery capacity and than you have no other choise than order the boat silent running and botom it. You can't move couse they will detect you with the hydrophones, you can' surface couse they will shoot and ram you. You can only stay on the bottom and pray that a heavy storm may force tham back to their base, while you slowly run out of oxigen.

Especialy towards the end of the war, more and more areas are planted with nets and minefields, more and more nets are being combined with mines and when you will run in one than asta lavista baby. This or that poor merchant will turn out to be a nasty Q-ship and there are as well other very nasty toys waiting for you that i will not disclose now. You will have to know what you do and consider your decissions twice.

Your actions will cause reactions and especialy more towards the end of the war sinking merchants closer to the enemy ports will be like poke in a wesp nest. The shiping lines is where you want to operate but that is also where enemy subs, planes and zeppelines operate as well not to mention all kinde of hunter groups. And finaly america steps in and convois are being introduced. Good luck.

Now does this sound easy for anyone ? At the beginning of the war it might be fairly easy. At the end of the war you will need all the skills/knowledge + luck to survive.

Oh and there are ground mines as well you won't be able to bottom the boat everywhere ;)

That was just a small insight in to what you will have to deal with. Not all in the first release though.

Deamon

Pharaoh49

08-31-05, 10:24 PM

Sounds delicous! This level of immersion is my kind of meat and potatoes. I can hardly wait!

You can count on me having my wallet out when it hits the shelves.

Good luck!

iambecomelife

09-01-05, 01:46 AM

I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of these projects going around - small companies or individuals planning highly detailed simulations for a niche audience. These undertakings may well be the successors to the "big name" sims of the 1990's. I really hope that your game and others like it can help revitalize the genre. Most potential fans would probably be willing to pay more for a simulation that models a given period in such great detail; moreover, you can definitely count on having a dedicated modding community.

2019

09-01-05, 02:49 AM

yes a WW1 subsim would be fun but to easy I think after you played SH3
What makes you think of that?

magick

09-01-05, 07:59 AM

Because anti submarine warfare in WW1 was not so good as in WW2, but anyway if there was a WW1 submarine game I would certenly buy it:)
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/2919/hochseeflotte7ns.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Floater

09-01-05, 09:36 AM

Daemon, you mentioned that you were concerned that there wouldn't be much interest in a WWI sub sim. My own experience might be reflected all over the world:

I had no particular interest in sub-sims until I saw SH2 in a shop and thought "what the hell" and bought it. Instantly, I was hooked. I'd never had any real interest in naval operations before, though the air and land operations were a sort of half-hobby back when I was a kid in the 1960s.

You don't need to rely solely on people's existing interests - you can draw them in to the subject by producing a good sim, and things can take off from there.

Deamon

09-01-05, 02:10 PM

Because anti submarine warfare in WW1 was not so good as in WW2

That's maybe true to some extent but that doesn't mean that it will be mutch easyer. The ASW in WWI was also different than in WWII. It can't be compared in any regards. At the end of the war there was even asdic introduced in an experimental way, prior to that the asw ships used their echosounder to detect submarines below them, then they come to the idea to instal the echosounder in the bow and directed it in a curtain angle downwards and there you have your asdic. One of the major threats came from all the mines, hydrophones, and remotely ignited minebundles once the u-boat was located near enough to them via hydrophones from landbases. That way the Channel becomes finaly unpassable. More towards the end of the war mines and net/mine combinations were everywhere. In addition storms riped of more and more mines from their chains and they floated all around. That way even the cleared passages become hazardous to use them. Not to mention the convoysystems. At the beginning it's fairly easy, you just need to dive and you are almost save. At the end the death is everywhere, the death is part of your crew so to say :lol:

The ASW was different back then. You might encounter 20 cutters that spread one big net around you and sit there and wait till you run out of oxygen and surface or drive around in that encircled area and throw waterbombs after they located you with the hydrophones. It's good for you

I will write comprehensive articles about it someday when my researches are complete, then you will see. Generaly i see that there is a serious lack of knowledge about WWI submarine warfare and ASW. The purpuose of my site is to close this knowledge gap. It's realy a forgotten era. It's time to fire up the petroleum engines again :D And what concerns my project; forget the word easy.

Cheers,
Deamon

Deamon

09-01-05, 02:45 PM

I had no particular interest in sub-sims until I saw SH2 in a shop and thought "what the hell" and bought it. Instantly, I was hooked. I'd never had any real interest in naval operations before

Happens occasionaly. But i'm pesimist and always count with the worst case scenario.

You don't need to rely solely on people's existing interests - you can draw them in to the subject by producing a good sim, and things can take off from there.

Well that is actualy my plan ;) I want to put there something, people MUST have, even if they aren't in to the subject. I just desper from time to time and woundering whether all of this measures will bring the minum neccessery succes.

Deamon

Deamon

09-01-05, 02:59 PM

I pray that you do not give up on this project and will certainly be watching for it's release. I can only hope that I will be so lucky to be one of your early testers. The immersive depth ( no pun intended) that academy training alone will be awesome.

Please! Don't stop!

Thank you for the kind wishes.

I'll gladly put you on my tester list. ;)

Deamon

Frankenstein

09-01-05, 03:38 PM

A WW1 Sub Sim?

Sounds like my kinda game. I'd buy it!

Razman23

09-01-05, 06:14 PM

And just where would be the challenge?

Just banging off steamers w/o any destroyers or other vessels being a serious threat is... tedious, to say the very least. http://www.astroalley.com/emoticons/pirateNo.gif

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

These were old merchant ships converted by the Royal Navy to carry hidden guns. They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

Back then 'eels' were not too reliable and there was still the 'code of the sea' where the sub captain would order the ship stopped, boarded and searched, crew to abandon and then the ship sunk by the deck gun.

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

Deamon

09-01-05, 06:55 PM

To be honest the first thing that grabbed me was your attention to detail and your desire to make a real simulation rather than a half hearted Game.

The level of ditail that you see now on U31 for example will be 2-3 times biger when it will be finished. There will be ditails everywhere. That's what i call immersion. But wait til you see the interiour modeling. It's even more ditailed.

Only after seeing the project am I now starting to look at WW1 U-boats.

To hear this is very rewarding for me cause that is what i try to achieve with my work and at least partialy it seems to work. Actualy i got alot of aknowledgements and admiration for my work from different people, what i considered as possible but haven't realy expected.

I think in General people of today are simply further removed in time from WW1 than WW2 and have less connection to the people, incidents and events of that time. Not only that but WW1 is not popularised in the media such as books and movies as WW2 is.

I fully agree on this. This is the conclusion i came to at the beginning of my project as i realized there wasn't ever a WWI subsim before and started to wounder why and i'm going to bring this subject back in to the awareness of the people.

Im 36 YO and I agree your target audiance will be the older players who have been there done that and are looking for something MORE.

Yes and at all i think older people have biger pretensions. I see for example alot of the audiance with a naval or maritime background. Who already posseses some of the knowledge that you will learn in the academy and feel full ycomfortable in it and not overwhelemed and might appreciate it to apply their skills in a pas timeframe that is recreated very believable.

Your welcome, It doesnt matter how long it takes - the best things in life by there very nature take the longest to achieve.
Even if we never complete them at least we tried thats all anyone can ever ask of us.

I feel it will occupie a very big part of my life. And i'm glad that i can spend it for it. Check your PM.

Deamon

Takeda Shingen

09-02-05, 07:41 AM

Deamon, I applaud your efforts, and look forward to seeing your work. I am wondering how you plan to implement the practices and standards of international maritime law. For almost the entire first year of the war, Uboats were required to stop transiting merchants and inspect their papers to determine if they were indeed ferrying for the enemy, at which time their seacocks would be opened and the crew set in lifeboats. This seems difficult to implement.

oRGy

09-02-05, 07:55 AM

Not really, unless you plan to have the player hop aboard the merchant.

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

In my experience its best to handle things abstractly.

Syxx_Killer

09-02-05, 08:40 AM

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

Or after you send the no/wo aboard, a screen could pop up showing the ship's papers. The player could then determine if the ship is to be sunk.

magick

09-02-05, 10:18 AM

the_rydster

09-03-05, 08:30 AM

Yeah I WW1 mod would be a great idea. The subs would be much more primative and the TDC would have to be replaced with slide rules and tables.

This is an interesting link about 'The first battle of the atlantic' -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Atlantic

There was some serious stuff going on for sure with several notoroius incidents, the sinking of the Lusitania, the sinking of Llandovery Castle, the Baralong incident etc etc.

Seeteufel

09-03-05, 01:18 PM

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

These were old merchant ships converted by the Royal Navy to carry hidden guns. They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

Back then 'eels' were not too reliable and there was still the 'code of the sea' where the sub captain would order the ship stopped, boarded and searched, crew to abandon and then the ship sunk by the deck gun.

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

Extract from the log of "U 82," commanded by Lieutenant-Commander Hans Adam:

" February 22, 1917. 1.50.—Tank steamer, about 3,000 tons, with course 250 degrees, in sight. Dived. Torpedo fired from second tube; missed by 700 m.; had underestimated way. Steamer turns upon counter course. Went down. Rose to surface. Stopped her with gunfire. Steamer stops, blows off steam, crew leave the ship in two boats.

" 2.30 P.M.—Approached under water. No armament. Boats, about 8—10, are away from steamer.

" 2.49 P.M.—Rose to surface near boats Which still try to pull away from U-boat.

"2.49 P.M.—Steamer opens fire from four guns. Dive. Conning-tower hit five times: one shot through the bridge, one above the aerials, the third (4.7 cm.) goes through the conning-tower, explodes inside, nearly all apparatus destroyed. Second officer of the watch slightly wounded. Fourth shot smashed circulating water tubes; fifth shot hit a mine deflector. Abandoned conning-tower. Central hatch and speaking tube closed. As the conning-tower abandoned, the boat had to be worked from the central space below the conning-tower. The lifeboats throw depth charges to a depth of 20 m. Switch and main switchboard held in place by hand. Electric lamp over magnetic compass goes out. Boat is top-heavy and oscillates round the transverse axis [because the conning-tower was filled with water]. A number of connections between the conning-tower and hull do not remain watertight. Owing to short circuit the following fail in quick succession: gyro-compass, lamp-circuit [for lighting], main rudder, means of communication, forward horizontal rudder jams. In spite of being 14 degrees down by the stern and engines going full speed, the boat sinks by the bows to 40 m.; compressed air. To get rid of the water, rapid expulsion of air to 20 m. to - degrees to load aft. Tank No. 1 gets no compressed air. All hands in the bows to avoid breaking surface. Torpedo coxswain and No. 1 (petty officer) even counter-flood forward. Boat falls 8 degrees by the bow, and sinks to 35 m. depth. Compressed air on forward tanks.

" Meanwhile the spray (from leaks in the conning-tower) is kept off the electric apparatus by sail-cloth, waterproofs, flags, etc. The watertight auxiliary switchboard is the saving of the boat. Boat sinks down by the stern again and threatens to break surface. Steering under water no longer possible.

" 3.10 P.M. - Compressed air on all tanks. Starboard electric engine breaks down. To the guns, clear oil motors, full speed ahead! "

The commander decided, as the boat could not remain under water, to rise to the surface and chance fighting the steamer.

"The steamer is 35 hm. off and opens fire at once. Shots all round the boat. One 7.5 and one 4.7 cm. shell hit the upper deck forward of the boat's 88 cm. gun. Second officer of the watch receives other slight wounds. Replied to fire, unfortunately without telescopic sight as the conning-tower is still full of water. Distance quickly increases to 50 hm. Then the steamer follows slowly. To starboard a destroyer which opens fire at 80 hm.; shots fall short. Put on cork jackets. The intention is to continue gunfire till the boat can be sunk in the neighbourhood of a sailing vessel 8 sea miles away, to save the crew from a Baralong fate.

"3.17 P.M.—The destroyer is a ' Foxglove,' but cannot steam faster than the boat. At about 75 hm. replied to fire. The ' Foxglove ' soon begins to try and avoid shots; is hit twice, and increases the distance. Her guns only carry about 75 hm.

"3.20 P.M.—Conning-tower can be made watertight; boat cleared; ammunition for gun cleared; except conning-tower, all damage can gradually be repaired. Course 165 degrees. The 'Foxglove ' follows in our wake. Steamer lost to view. At a pinch the boat can dive, but leaves a heavy oil track behind her. If no destroyer comes before night, the boat can be saved.

"6.50 P.M.—The ' Foxglove ' has approached to 70 hm. and opens fire again. Return fire: hit. Enemy sheers off and falls back to over 100 hm.

" 8 P.M.—Twilight. Pursuit out of sight. On account of oil track zig-zag course. Run into another oil track, turned to port and gradually on course of 240 degrees.''

The boat then began her return journey and reached home without further incident."

I myself had occasion to inspect "U84,' after her return from this expedition. I realised that it was little short of a miracle that, in spite of such heavy damage, she reached home. It was chiefly due to the assurance with which the commander handled his boat, the perfect co-operation of the whole crew in these trying circumstances, and the excellent practice made by the gunners, in connection with which it must be remembered that the height of the platform of a U-boat, on which the gun is mounted, is only 2 m. above the water-level, and that aiming is thereby rendered far more difficult. Lieutenant-Commander Rohr is, unfortunately, one of the many who have not returned from their voyages.
..."The lifeboats throw depth charges to a depth of 20 m."...damned suicide job if you ask me... :arrgh!:

...more war diary extracts here . (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42542) ;)

jason210

09-03-05, 01:48 PM

In WWI, we'd be playing without many of the technologies that WWII subs had, and there is a danger that this might seem dull.

A WWI sub simulation could be just great, but only if it introduced some revolutionary new things, such as full, 1st person camera movement around the ship. This is a must for any new subsim.

But that would not be enough. In order to be immersive it would need to be alive, with top notch graphics, detailed ships, detailed aircraft and detailed crews who walk around and do stuff.

And yet - I still don't think it would be enough. It would need something else. Perhaps more control of the U-boat would helpt....valves, engines, hydroplanes. And then a really good dynamic campaign.

Deamon

09-03-05, 02:59 PM

Extract from the log of "U 82," commanded by Lieutenant-Commander Hans Adam:

That was a hell of a fight, doh :doh:

The crew and commander must had some nerves. :rock:

Deamon

Deamon

09-03-05, 10:59 PM

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

That is curtainly new to me. What are your sources ?

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

Yeah and some Q-Ships must have been surprized too as they surprized a german u-boat but this blew them up finaly. :lol:

Deamon, I applaud your efforts, and look forward to seeing your work.

Thank you. I'm gald you like it.

I am wondering how you plan to implement the practices and standards of international maritime law.

Just as they were.

For almost the entire first year of the war, Uboats were required to stop transiting merchants and inspect their papers to determine if they were indeed ferrying for the enemy, at which time their seacocks would be opened and the crew set in lifeboats. This seems difficult to implement.

Why do you think it's difficult ?

Not really, unless you plan to have the player hop aboard the merchant.

I plan to hop the player not only aboard of merchants :lol: But i don't disclose more then this.

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

In my experience its best to handle things abstractly.

Hmm, i think i'm going to handle them not abstractly. Don't think it will be a SHIII just in WWI. It's a very different kinde of sim we working on here. It's supposed to go beyoned the pure tactical simulation more towards a first person u-boat experiance. If you know what i mean. If it will be just the half of what i project then you will remember eatch of your patrols mutch longer then thous from SHIII. Eatch patrol will be mutch more ditailed with mutch more things to do.

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

Or after you send the no/wo aboard, a screen could pop up showing the ship's papers. The player could then determine if the ship is to be sunk.

Something along this lines could be done if i fail to implement what i plan.

What means no/wo ?

This forum awakes my interest in WW1 submarines, searched the web and found some interresting facts, if there is a WW1 submarine sim then let me know :D, greetings

Oh you are from Flandes ! Where the german u-baot base in WWI were.

I guess you have seen my site ?

Check also out the diarys Seeteufel has compiled.

Yeah I WW1 mod would be a great idea. The subs would be much more primative and the TDC would have to be replaced with slide rules and tables.

Hmm, but we were not talking here about a mod.

This is an interesting link about 'The first battle of the atlantic' -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Atlantic

Thanks

There was some serious stuff going on for sure with several notoroius incidents, the sinking of the Lusitania, the sinking of Llandovery Castle, the Baralong incident etc etc.

It's a very exciting era. And it's unexplored ! A whole u-boat action heavy war unexplored!!!

It's very exciting for me to work through all of this stuff and then compile articles out of it.

In WWI, we'd be playing without many of the technologies that WWII subs had, and there is a danger that this might seem dull.

I can't agree on that. Is there a danger a WWII subsim could be dull because it misses many of the technology of a modern submarine ?

I think you can't compare apples with oranges. I feel a little bit that you tend to imagine a WWI subsim as a downgraded WWII sim.

The only missing technologies i can think of are the TDC(Torpedo director instead) no radar, no trainable hydrophone that was able to exclude all noises except that once that were in the azimuth (There were only panorama hydrophones available and the whole boat had to be turned if you wanted to have a precise bearing of the target. But at the end of the war the so called binaural hydrophone installation were available that made it possible to take bearings without turning the boat), the radio direction finder wasn't available and the radio equipment wasn't so powerfull it also was not possible to receive messages at PD via ELF. Besides that i don't see much differences in equipment. Well the torpedos had no magnetical fuzes and the torpedos couldn't perform search patterns like that once in WWII(besides angle shots) and had also no acoustical guidence.

But on the other hand the WWI u-boats feature stuff WWII u-boats can't: there is a much bigger variaty of u-boat types, up to four deckguns with range finders, calibre up to 155mm and i finde them more beauty to be honestly. So many different appearances makes the u-boat heart happy.

A WWI sub simulation could be just great, but only if it introduced some revolutionary new things, such as full, 1st person camera movement around the ship. This is a must for any new subsim.

Well that's what i'm going to do.

But that would not be enough. In order to be immersive it would need to be alive, with top notch graphics, detailed ships, detailed aircraft and detailed crews who walk around and do stuff.

Well i would agree on that, at least the graphics should be up to date. Do you think my models will look top notch ?

I can tell you U 1 will gonna be veeery immersive :D

And yet - I still don't think it would be enough. It would need something else. Perhaps more control of the U-boat would helpt....valves, engines, hydroplanes. And then a really good dynamic campaign.

I'm aware of that. But still i'm not talking here about a SHIII in WWI. I'm going to broaden the scope of the sim and introduce areas never been dealt before in a subsim. In todays subsims the submarine is to the bigest part merely eyecandy. Not so in IUF the whole sub will work and everything will have its purpuose, i even toy with the idea to allow the player to disassamble the engines :88) I project the player to deal alot more with just the sub alone not to mention the navigational, nautical, operational and other challanges. Like i sayed my project gears more towards the u-boat experiance then a pure tactical sim. When it comes down to immersion i have set to my self highest goals. When i play my own sim then i want to be so immersed that i forget everything around me and after the play needing some time to arrive back in the reality. I experianced this type of immersion only with operation flashpoint in the recent years.

Deamon

Deamon

09-04-05, 02:44 AM

@jason210:

I just investigated some of your older posts and saw what type of taste you have. You seem strongly to desire a PFS style freedome of movement in and on the sub and anywhere else. You also seem to like flashpoint very much. Well i'm pleased to see that we have very common desires. :up:

Than you will like my sim much.

BTW: Do you ever check your PM's ? :roll:

Deamon

Rotor

09-04-05, 05:40 AM

Yes - Im in too! :rock:

Takeda Shingen

09-04-05, 07:23 AM

I simply thought it might be more difficult to have more complex interaction between you and your target, as opposted to 'find and sink'. If it is not more difficult, or even more simplistic, then this is fine as well. I apologize for my inquiry, as it was not my intention to step on anyone's manhood.

Best of luck with your project. I look forward to reading about a completed project at some point in the future.

the_rydster

09-04-05, 08:34 AM

Saying a WW1 sub sim will be like a downgraded WW2 sub sim is like saying a WW2 flight simulator (ie IL-2) would be a downgrade of a modern fast jet simulator.

I do not think the quality and value of a sim is a function of the level of technology it is seeking to portray.

I think with a WW1 U boat sim the manual firing of torpedos is going to be harder since there is no electro-mechanical computer (TDC type device) to help. Hitting a target will require more skill that even 100% reality at the moment so it is possibily going to be more rewarding.

You had the whole Q ship think going on as well, plus the restricted and unrestricted phases of U boat warfare. Certainly the restricted side of things would be a challenge to portray, stopping a ship, checking manifests, ordering the crew to go to the lifeboats, opening the seacocks etc, all the while you are doing this your U boat is exposed and in danger, do you just sink the ship and ask questions later? Maybe it is a Q ships? Is the manifest true? These were questions the U boat 'Kapitans' had to ask.

I would like to see the activities of merchant ships crews more. For example the Q ship 'ruse' relied partly on 'phony evacuations', where some of the crew would get in the lifeboats making it look like the captain had abandoned the ships, while the main body of the crew especially the gunners kept themselves concealed the U boat surfaced when they would attack.

Although it would be cool to see crew go to the lifeboats I suggest the ability to run down lifeboats and shoot survivors in the water is not added unless you want a 1918 war crimes think going on as well!!

Also you have the battle of jutland in which you could play a part which would be cool.

:P

jason210

09-04-05, 02:08 PM

@Daemon

Hi

Sorry - been busy working. No I don't check my PMs. May be I should have a look in there...

Glad we think alike :D

I work with 3D Graphics and VR myself, so I realise what work lies ahead of you. All I can do is wish you the best of luck!!

Nice modeling by the way...

jason210

09-04-05, 02:18 PM

Ok, I checked my PMs lol! Sorry I haven't been replying to them!!!

Deamon

09-04-05, 09:06 PM

Saying a WW1 sub sim will be like a downgraded WW2 sub sim is like saying a WW2 flight simulator (ie IL-2) would be a downgrade of a modern fast jet simulator.

I do not think the quality and value of a sim is a function of the level of technology it is seeking to portray.

Yes, but i think many who don't know anything about WWI do think this way. Some kinde of stereotypical imagination.

I think with a WW1 U boat sim the manual firing of torpedos is going to be harder since there is no electro-mechanical computer (TDC type device) to help. Hitting a target will require more skill that even 100% reality at the moment so it is possibily going to be more rewarding.

Yes that's why 300m was the optimal attack range. Of course you have a torpedo director and can fire from further away. Otto Wedingen torpedoed his three cruisers from up to 900m away.

You had the whole Q ship think going on as well, plus the restricted and unrestricted phases of U boat warfare. Certainly the restricted side of things would be a challenge to portray, stopping a ship, checking manifests, ordering the crew to go to the lifeboats, opening the seacocks etc, all the while you are doing this your U boat is exposed and in danger, do you just sink the ship and ask questions later? Maybe it is a Q ships? Is the manifest true? These were questions the U boat 'Kapitans' had to ask.

Yes, besides pure tactical decissions you have now to deal with legal questions. Politics affect now your tactical possibilities.

I would like to see the activities of merchant ships crews more. For example the Q ship 'ruse' relied partly on 'phony evacuations', where some of the crew would get in the lifeboats making it look like the captain had abandoned the ships, while the main body of the crew especially the gunners kept themselves concealed the U boat surfaced when they would attack.

Thats how i intend to do it.

Although it would be cool to see crew go to the lifeboats I suggest the ability to run down lifeboats and shoot survivors in the water is not added unless you want a 1918 war crimes think going on as well!!

Well, how can i forbide the player to run down the life boats ?

Instead if th eplayer commits a war crime then he will have to respond in a court.

Also you have the battle of jutland in which you could play a part which would be cool.

Oh yeah, fleet operations :)

Deamon

Razman23

09-05-05, 10:45 AM

Razman23

09-05-05, 10:59 AM

Here are a couple of websites I googled real quick on the subject.

http://www.vectorsite.net/twsub21.html#m3
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/155750895X/ref%3Dnosim/uboatnet/102-2021877-2855357
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Here are the books I looked at.

"U-boats : a pictorial history"
by Hoyt, Edwin Palmer.
New York : McGraw-Hill, c1987.

"U-boats : the illustrated history of the raiders of the deep"
by Miller, David.
Dulles, VA : Brassey's, c2002.

Floater

09-05-05, 11:09 AM

I don't know about the British ships, but the Germans would actually use their ships to impersonate individual neutrals. So, while sailing through the North Sea, they'd pretend to be, I dunno, the Swedish SS Gravitas sailing from Gothernburg or something (the real SS Gravitas was making a similar journey, maybe to Aberdeen or somewhere). Then, on the approach to the Atlantic, they'd find out from radio intel that another ship from another country was making that run and assume their identity, including all the paintwork, smoke-stacks and what-not. This could happen several times during a patrol.

That way, if their ship came across the enemy, their presence in that area would seem normal, and their ship would match the Lloyd's Register.

Fascinating stuff.

Deamon

09-05-05, 11:59 AM

I think the word 'morph' is a little too harsh to say. What the captains did was have extra smokestacks, cargo boxes, and other ship 'parts' stored in the holds. Afterall they are not using the ships to carry cargo. So they would sail back and forth in a area, then at night, the crew would pull out a smokestack or a cargo box and install them in the dead of night. They would even paint the entire hull a new color to give the impression that it was a ship of a differnt company.

Ah now i understand, to not cause suspection in a possible u-boat that might obeserved them sailing up and down in the same area.

The Qship crew would actually role play when a sub appeared. They had crew whose only job was to run around on deck, look scared, jump upon the life boats and abandon ship. The whole time, the gun crews would spy upon the sub waiting it to get closer to spring their trap.

I'm of course familiar with the Q-Ships tactics but i didn't know that they have repaint the ship at night and builded some extra smokestacks.

So thanks for the info.

Deamon

Deamon

09-05-05, 12:22 PM

U-104

09-06-05, 09:14 AM

Just avoid U-65 :o http://www.yeoldeeditor.com/TheDevilShip.htm

Col7777

09-06-05, 10:54 AM

@Razman23,
We had Q-ships in SH2, thanks to FAdmiral. He introduced/modded one and even wrote a few missions for them.

On the topic of a WW1 simulation, then here is another vote for YES! I would love it, again to repeat some of the above posts, seeing some of those older ships on the water would be great.

Deamon

09-06-05, 04:24 PM

Just avoid U-65 :o http://www.yeoldeeditor.com/TheDevilShip.htm

Thanks for the intersting link. Exorcism might work on demons but does it work on Imperial German Naval Officers ? :hmm:

U-104

09-07-05, 05:30 PM

:rotfl:

Deamon

09-07-05, 07:34 PM

:rotfl:

The exorcist should do his homework before, next time :lol:

Deamon

U-104

09-07-05, 07:38 PM

what?

Deamon

09-07-05, 07:50 PM

I mean the exorcist should have do his homework before he trys to exorcise a naval officer out of his u-boat.

U-104

09-07-05, 08:05 PM

ohh :D

Deamon

09-07-05, 10:46 PM

@jason210:

Jason it's time again to check your PM's !

Why don't you just activate the email notification option for PM's ?

Deamon

bill clarke

09-09-05, 01:27 AM

I'd like one, imagine taking on the Hoge, Aboquir, and Cressy. Or being in the middle of the British fleet at Jutland, mmmmm,

2019

09-09-05, 02:13 AM

Or while being submerged you continualy being chased by a DD, you only manage to loose him in the night. And all because you was stubled in a net and it was all the time visible on the surface.

Or how about you're driving a tiny UB-boot and are on perscope depth and while you lauch the fish you suddenly surface?

Or fishing boats that give away your position over the radio to the enemy? (bastards)

With many tactical features a ww1 sim could be so immersive and such a great pleasure to play that you won't dare to use time compression.

Deamon

10-27-05, 05:41 PM

Is there anyone else here who would like to see a WWI subsim ?

coronas

10-27-05, 05:50 PM

Sweet times! Off course, a Ancient SHIII!

bookworm_020

10-27-05, 07:24 PM

The option of a boarding party would be good. It would mean you could save your torps and gun rounds, but it would expose you to Q-ships and the like. :arrgh!:

U-552Erich-Topp

10-27-05, 07:46 PM

:) Yes I'ld buy it as a relative of mine was supposed to be in the WW1 U-boat arm but was transfered at the last moment to trench warfare at the the front for lack of infantry.

Wulfmann

10-27-05, 08:47 PM

Some time ago I started a thread on how a WWI sub sim would offer the best opportunities for a complete game. Most agreed then and its nice to see so many continue to have an interest.

Speaking of WWI, there is a WWI Combat Flight sim being built called OFF (Over Flanders Field) It is a stand alone built using CFS3 and is expected to be released by Christmas as a CD swap freeware or donation ware at SimOuthouse. Here is a link about its release dates which has screens in some of the post
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=1656

The Royal Navy used over 200 ships in the Q-ship role during WWI and sank 14 German U-Boats with 19 of the Q-ships sunk by U-Boats. The Germans used decoy ships in the Baltic one sinking 2 Brit subs.

The most serious lacking of SH3 is no wolfpacks. A WWI based sim even using SH3 with WWI models would actually be more accurate than the WWII SH3 as there were no cooperation missions between multiple U-Boats, ergo, you would be on your own as a WWI Kaleun would be.

The sim being discussed here would be very cool particularly for those that play SH3 at 100%. I have done everything I can to mod this so it is more difficult but, IMO, a WWI U-Boat sim would be better than anything because of the manual requirements, you having to do it rather than push a button. I do not use TDC at all in SH3 now.

My one hope is the ability to move around like in a (dare I say it) FPS game rather than pop from one point to another

Best of luck and do it for fun and passion letting the release come as it does.

Wulfmann

Deamon

11-02-05, 09:07 PM

:) Yes I'ld buy it as a relative of mine was supposed to be in the WW1 U-boat arm but was transfered at the last moment to trench warfare at the the front for lack of infantry.

Wow, did he survived ?

Deamon

Deamon

11-02-05, 09:27 PM

Some time ago I started a thread on how a WWI sub sim would offer the best opportunities for a complete game. Most agreed then and its nice to see so many continue to have an interest.

Great, where was this discussion ?

Speaking of WWI, there is a WWI Combat Flight sim being built called OFF (Over Flanders Field) It is a stand alone built using CFS3 and is expected to be released by Christmas as a CD swap freeware or donation ware at SimOuthouse. Here is a link about its release dates which has screens in some of the post
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=1656

Great thanks.

The Germans used decoy ships in the Baltic one sinking 2 Brit subs.

Decoy ships ? You mean like Q-Ships ?

The most serious lacking of SH3 is no wolfpacks.

Yes. Was there every a sim with Wolfpacks ?

A WWI based sim even using SH3 with WWI models would actually be more accurate than the WWII SH3

I think it would be neccessery to make some substantial changes to the engine to simulate WWI properly.

as there were no cooperation missions between multiple U-Boats, ergo, you would be on your own as a WWI Kaleun would be.

That is not entirely true. There were group operations at the end of the war especialy after convois were introduced, it becomes quickly clear that u-boats would need to operate in an organized manner: So they did in the last months of the war. But this group operations weren't so sofisticated as in WWII. But not only at the end of the war. I know of a group operation in July 1916 where 14 u-boats participated in.

The sim being discussed here would be very cool particularly for those that play SH3 at 100%.

Yes that is my target audiance. People who play at 100% and would love to play at 150% :)

I have done everything I can to mod this so it is more difficult but, IMO, a WWI U-Boat sim would be better than anything because of the manual requirements, you having to do it rather than push a button.

Yes yes. It is my special concern to give as much things to the player as possible that he have to do by hand. Gives you a better feel for the boat.

My one hope is the ability to move around like in a (dare I say it) FPS game rather than pop from one point to another

This was at the top of all priorities since the beginning of the project.

Best of luck and do it for fun and passion letting the release come as it does.

Wulfmann

Thanks for your encouragements. Check your PM.

Deamon