Uber T2s - does anyone else have them?

[The Avon Lady]

Running with RUb 1.43 but had this with RUb 1.42. Also have the Harbour Traffic mod v1.45 for RUb 1.43.

Not always but too many times, a T2 won't sink unless you plug it with as many as 3 or even 4 torpedoes.

Now, I don't know if it was always like this but I would assume that in real life, tankers would have been the most volatile type of merchants due to their cargo.

Is it just me? Has anyone else experienced this behavior recently?

Are my real life assumptions wrong?

Could this have something to do with RUb?

:hmm:

[CCIP]

Just sunk one the other day in 1.43 with a single impact shot.

I guess they might be tough to sink if they're going in ballast, but hit their fuel bunkers and up they go... :hmm:

[Shadow9216]

I would assume that in real life, tankers would have been the most volatile type of merchants due to their cargo.


That's true if they're carrying avgas, but I don't know about other types. And if the tankers are in ballast, they're almost impossible to sink- many captains on all sides lamented the difficulty of sinking ballasted tankers.

I don't know if the game accurately models this, but it would be interesting to know if the tankers were east or west bound?

[The Avon Lady]

Again, it doesn't happen always but T2s are beginning to make C2s look like tin.

[DerKaleun]

Blast his propellers and give the sucker some 8,8 pounding thereafter :rock:

[The Avon Lady]

Blast his propellers and give the sucker some 8,8 pounding thereafter :rock:
I have had nothing but roller coaster waves and thunderstorms lately. :doh:

[Syxx_Killer]

I used to like seeing tankers. They were high tonnage prizes. Now, if I run across one I cringe. I hate T2s. T3s seem to sink a bit easier, but those blasted T2s can be a real pain. I don't attack one unless I have at least 3 or more torpedoes. :damn:

[cunnutazzo]

3 or 4 torpedo here to sink a T2 :roll:
it is independent from rubbed or unrubbed SH3

[Gizzmoe]

Not always but too many times, a T2 won't sink unless you plug it with as many as 3 or even 4 torpedoes.

The reason is that a good amount of T2 and T3 tankers have freight (CargoInt=0) instead of fuel (CargoInt=2) as their internal cargo which makes them, of course, more difficult to sink.

[clive bradbury]

I have an uprated torpedo mod if you want it - doesn't make the eels too 'uber', but you can usually put a large merchant away with a couple at the most. It is available on my site, but the server seems to be down. I can pm it to you if you like.

[jasonb885]

Not always but too many times, a T2 won't sink unless you plug it with as many as 3 or even 4 torpedoes.

The reason is that a good amount of T2 and T3 tankers have freight (CargoInt=0) instead of fuel (CargoInt=2) as their internal cargo which makes them, of course, more difficult to sink.

I hadn't thought I'd included too few with fuel.

Should more tankers be sinking by violent explosion in IC?

HX runs at 50%.

SC runs at 100% for all convoys with tankers.

All west bound convoys are empty.

ON has 10%.

OS has 50%.

Arctic convoys running to Russia have 100%.

SL runs at 50%.

UC (back to US from GB) has 10% filled for return trip.
CU is 100% on way from US.

OG runs at 100%.

HG runs at 100%.

KX runs at 100%.

UGS runs at 100%.

Now, many of the above have very few tankers. HX should have roughly 40 or 50% tankers, though, and SC should have a small number of tankers. So, you ought to be scoring some hits.

Maybe you've just been unlucky?

Which convoys was it?

I thought my values has been more generous than the stock game, but perhaps not. From a hackish evaluation of the data, ignoring which convoy is which, it looks like as a total percentage of the cargo, ships that have fuel is less than the original convoys.

However, I included fewer tankers in my convoys which is historically accurate, so that may account for the difference. I should probably be looking at the absolute number of tankers, then comparing the differences between stock and IC. But I'm too lazy for that.

It does, however, seem somewhat reasonable not to have all tankers fully loaded such that they explode (i.e. cargo is oil), even in east bound convoys.

Thoughts?

[jasonb885]

I have an uprated torpedo mod if you want it - doesn't make the eels too 'uber', but you can usually put a large merchant away with a couple at the most. It is available on my site, but the server seems to be down. I can pm it to you if you like.

How much of a TNT increase did you give them?

;)

[Gizzmoe]

I hadn't thought I'd included too few with fuel.

It looks like about 40-50% are loaded with freight. Maybe you should try CargoInt=-1 instead of "0", that should make them a little bit easier to sink.

[jasonb885]

I hadn't thought I'd included too few with fuel.

It looks like about 40-50% are loaded with freight. Maybe you should try CargoInt=-1 instead of "0", that should make them a little bit easier to sink.

Correct.

It was my understanding that the only other valid option was 0. I know transports have a mandatory -1, but I had thought tankers were fueled or cargoed.

You've confirmed -1 is a valid value? It would be my preference to assign that to ensure a tanker is dryholed as opposed to carrying supplies or what not, which doesn't necessarily make any sense.

This will be an either-or change, where I'll make it -1 if it works or leave it alone. It's not easily done for me to change it to randomly skip between -1 or 0 depending on some factor. The time for such customizations has passed, I believe.

Let me know.

Thanks.

[Gizzmoe]

You've confirmed -1 is a valid value?

I haven´t confirmed it, I said you should try it! ;) -1 means "no cargo", "0" is "Freight". I´m 99.99% sure that -1 it also works for tankers.

Here´s the complete cargo list.

CargoInt:
0 = Freight
1 = Ammo
2 = Fuel

CargoExt:
0 = Oil
1 = Freight Containers
2 = Freight Crates
3 = Ammo Containers
4 = Ammo Crates
5 = Aircraft
6 = Tanks
7 = Trucks
8 = Trap Container

[jasonb885]

You've confirmed -1 is a valid value?

I haven´t confirmed it, I said you should try it! ;) -1 means "no cargo", "0" is "Freight". I´m 99.99% sure that -1 it also works for tankers.

Here´s the complete cargo list.

...

Been there.

Just looking for confirmation.

;)

According to the original Campaign_RND.mis file, there are _no_ tankers with a CargoInt=-1, so I believe it is not valid. In either case, -1 is not why they may seem to sink easier before IC, because, well, the stock game didn't use -1 either.

[Gizzmoe]

I´ll try it out, maybe I get some good results.

I know, but just because the devs didn´t use it doesn´t mean that it´s not going to work! smile I´ll try it out, maybe I get some good results.

[The Avon Lady]

Which convoys was it?
Currently, it's in an eastbound convoy that made its way ENE through BE38, BE39 and BF14 in June 1940

In a previous March 1940 patrol, it was an eastbound convoy going ESE through AM17, AM18 and AM29.

[Gizzmoe]

I´ll try it out, maybe I get some good results.

And here are the results. I´ve repeated each test three times. I´ve always aimed at the same spot, the forward mast of a T2, and used a single T-II torpedo, depth 4m.

Freight: Nothing, speed went down from 5 knots to 3, no prominent flooding.
Fuel: Dead.
No cargo: Same as freight.

Same test with a salvo of two torps, no spread. Same results.

"-1" does nothing.

[Syxx_Killer]

Why would a tanker be hauling freight instead of fuel, anyway?

[Abraham]

Not always but too many times, a T2 won't sink unless you plug it with as many as 3 or even 4 torpedoes.
Now, I don't know if it was always like this but I would assume that in real life, tankers would have been the most volatile type of merchants due to their cargo.
Are my real life assumptions wrong?
Yes they are.
There is enough historic evidence that tankers were very though taregets, that were seldom sunk by one torpedo.
First of all their construction (the actual tanks) give them good boyancy and excellent compartimentation (if that's an English word but you understand what I mean).
Furthermore, if their cargo was crude oil - which it often was although I don't know the percentages - it was very difficult to ignite. The oil from the US had to be thoroughly refined before it could be used in combusting engines. High octane Avgas was of course a different proposition, though.
The situation in the Pacific was really different. The oil from the Dutch Indies, Sumatra and Borneo, was much smoother and of a higher quality (higher octane level). It took little or no refining to make it usable in diesel engines. Therefore Japanese tankers used to explode and burn on impact of the first torpedo.

For your information and for what it's worth: I usually find a weak spot of tankers in the aft quarter of their hull, the engine room or slightly forward of it.

[RAM]

Yes they are.


Your assumption about US tankers loading crude oil from USA are true only to an extent. If they were fully loaded, they were hard to ignite. But if they were something less than fully loaded, they were as easy to burn as lighters because the flammable gas the oil produces and fills any non-liquid-filled space in an oil loaded tank.

There were multiple instances in real life of tankers loaded with crude oil turning into hellish infernos with just one hit by U-boats. There are also multiple instances of tankers taking a lot of punishment and surviving to make it into port, too.


In the game, with RuB, I have T2s and T3s as my first targets when finding convoys (most convoys I found so far in RuB are doing the inbound route anyway so they are loaded for sure). Roughly 75% of them go off with just one hit aimed immediately before the aft superstructure. But if I happen to hit a tanker which won't blow up with a single impact in that place, I don't fire any more torpedoes to her because I know that it will take at least 3 or 4 fishes to get her under ,and if there are more easy targets nearby I'd rather try to sink them instead.


One quite funny thing I always think when I read this kind of threads is how the C2s are thought as being the most though ships around...when I find that most of them take just one fish to blow up and sink if hit just under their funnel... and in any case, no one of them has survived two of my torpedoes. I just aim the first one under the funnel. If the C2 doesn't break (and usually she does), I fire another pointed towards the aft mast.

The massive flooding in the machinery spaces caused by the first torpedo makes the ship get low on the water, and 99% of times brings the ship to a total stop. The torpedo hit on the aft part of the ship increases the flooding on the aft side of the ship, and with no forward motion this guarantees the kill for the ship will certainly sink sooner or later.

[jasonb885]

Everyone has different experiences, it seems.

I've had both T2s and C2s that won't go down, although C2 is more common for me. I've run across T2s that take two or three torpedos to go under, too, though. I still target troop ships, T3s, T2s, C3s, C2s in that order, though, as most everyone else does.

Of course in real life I'm sure you'd fire two or four torpedos at each target to ensure a kill. I doubt many commanders were willing to risk loss of ship and crew to save a few torpedos and maximize kills. Especially since in the real war, early on, so many ships were of so many different classes. I don't think there was any magic spot for 90% kill ratios on anything. Of course there are probably obvious places like the keel, but you get the idea.

:up:

[rulle34]

I have an uprated torpedo mod if you want it - doesn't make the eels too 'uber', but you can usually put a large merchant away with a couple at the most. It is available on my site, but the server seems to be down. I can pm it to you if you like.

I can confirm that Clive's torpedo is very nice. :up: Don't feel über at all, but don't have this 4-5 torpedo "firerange" situation with some C2's.

And for The Avon Lady: I have not had any difficulties with T2's, only C2's. Im using Rub 1.43.

[Abraham]

Yes they are.
Your assumption about US tankers loading crude oil from USA are true only to an extent. If they were fully loaded, they were hard to ignite. But if they were something less than fully loaded, they were as easy to burn as lighters because the flammable gas the oil produces and fills any non-liquid-filled space in an oil loaded tank.
There were multiple instances in real life of tankers loaded with crude oil turning into hellish infernos with just one hit by U-boats. There are also multiple instances of tankers taking a lot of punishment and surviving to make it into port, too.
You are right that some tankers with crude oil went up in flames.
However, I have the impression - but it is not more than that - that those tankers were hit in their own bunkers, thatof course were partially empty. It doesn't make sense to me to send tankers across the Atlantic that were not loaded up to capacity.
Another factor is of course that quite a lot of tankers had refined oil derivatives on board. Curaçao for instance was renowned for having the biggest natural harbour and the biggest oil refinery in the Caribean. A lot of South American oil was refined there and consequently shipped to the fronts. Those ships were of course extremely prone to explode and/or burn after a torpedo hit.

I feel all this has not been thoroughly represented in the game. Perhaps one third or half of all tankers should burn like a bonfire, the rest should be as tough as all seem to be now.
But again, I don't have percentages.

[iambecomelife]

Why would a tanker be hauling freight instead of fuel, anyway?

Since there aren't enough cargoes in the game, I like to use the freight cargo with tankers in the mission builder to represent vessels carrying non-flammable cargoes like inert chemicals and molasses. I also think that some types of oil were extremely difficult to ignite, making it inappropriate to use the "fuel" setting for them.

As for getting them to sink, I've found that aiming for a space below the t-2's main deck almost always works, as long as the vessel's loaded. If you hit the ship underneath the superstructure it will almost never sink - even if it's loaded - because the machinery spaces and stores would have been located there. The main deck, OTOH, usually covers the main tank sections.

[The Avon Lady]

I have an uprated torpedo mod if you want it - doesn't make the eels too 'uber', but you can usually put a large merchant away with a couple at the most. It is available on my site, but the server seems to be down. I can pm it to you if you like.

I can confirm that Clive's torpedo is very nice. :up: Don't feel über at all, but don't have this 4-5 torpedo "firerange" situation with some C2's.
I would appreciate if a new separate thread about these torpedoes be open and discussed on the SH3 Mods forum section. This could be interesting and lead to educated conclusions as to whether it improves the game's realism or does just the opposite.
And for The Avon Lady: I have not had any difficulties with T2's, only C2's. Im using Rub 1.43.
As I said, with RUb 1.43, I have had some T2s go down in a flash but I've encountered many more that behave like or worse than the game's C2s.

Based on the modder's discussions on this thread maybe or maybe not some tweaking should or shouldn't be done for a future update to convoy settings.

If I understand the modders correctly, the jury is still out on this one.

[Jail]

My exeprience is that outbound T2's to US is hard to sink (2 or more torp to sink), but inbound to UK is easy to sink 1 torp under keel and fireworks all over the place.

[Duli]

Well, sometimes I have the same problem, like the Avon Lady. T2s just dont want to go to the bottom.

[clive bradbury]

Hi Avon Lady. There already is a thread of a sort in the mods section:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=37876&highlight=

Perhaps we should shift the discussion there.

[clive bradbury]

Hi jasonb885.

After some experimentation I finally settled on an increase in the warheads by 200, i.e. min from 120 to 320, max from 180 to 380. I'm quite happy with the results.

[Farside]

I'd just like to add, i had the same probs as avonlady only with a C3... it wasn't fun, 5 - 6 torps later it went down.

[Gizzmoe]

After some experimentation I finally settled on an increase in the warheads by 200, i.e. min from 120 to 320, max from 180 to 380. I'm quite happy with the results.

Can you please upload the changed zon file somewhere? Or send it to me (gizzmoe [at] gmx.de). Thanks!

[Syxx_Killer]

After some experimentation I finally settled on an increase in the warheads by 200, i.e. min from 120 to 320, max from 180 to 380. I'm quite happy with the results.

Can you please upload the changed zon file somewhere?

Yes, would it be possible to upload it? I would really like to try these new values. :cool:

[clive bradbury]

Available on rapidshare here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/2312866/UpratedTorpedo.rar.html

[Gizzmoe]

Thanks!

[Syxx_Killer]

I thank you! :up: :cool: