View Full Version : Is it illegal to copy/paste thread users sub pictures
kiwi_2005
08-12-05, 03:13 AM
Ive been copying alot of your guys Sub pictures you have, in threads and have myself a very cool desktop screen to look at. :rock: The pictures are cool. Then again if i start getting acused of being like a sea wolfs staff memeber i will happily delete them. :lol:
gdogghenrikson
08-12-05, 03:19 AM
I dont really think so. unless you try to sell them!!
well at least I dont think it is illegal...If some one used my screen shots for a desk top or in forums I could care less
The nice this to do would be to ask first :)
I agree with gdogghenrikson.
I personally couldn't care a less if someone used my screenshot as a wallpaper on their desktop.Most of the time once I post the screenshot here on the forum I delete it off my computer anyhow.I used it for what I needed it for and have no further use for it.Only the rare occasion do I actually keep any of them.
If you place anything on the internet - you are releasing it into the public domain.
In copyright protection law - "If you are placing your "prior art" into the public domain without conditions, you are letting go control of that "prior art" and also, therefore any protections you think or perceive it may have had."
Filing a copyright case against someone who stole an image you placed into the public domain, would be too costly and too difficult to defend to be realistic.
Anyone placing images or anything onto the web must assume that they are giving it away...unless conditions are clear ( i.e. license agreements in demo or other software).
Anyone using those images will perceive they have been placed into the public domain - so are free for public use.
Those who are careful know how to protect their "intellectual property rights" - and simply will NOT place their "Prior art or invention disclosures" into the "PUBLIC DOMAIN".... this includes images.
An example of an image placed into the public domain with proper protection conditions ...is a trademark.
SteamWake
08-12-05, 11:53 AM
I got a great idea !
Ill copy alot of the pictures posted here and on the offical forums and put them into a photo album.
Ill call it See Boats and try to sell it for 49.99 ! :-j
Oh wait someone has already thought of that... never mind.
kiwi_2005
08-12-05, 12:53 PM
c0smic1 i like your image. McBeck i like yours as well but chose not to copy it cos its has "member of the Dev team" which im not. Im just after sub pictures, im not going to display them somewhere else on the net or make out they're mine. I just like having lots and lots of pictures of subs :) I even put a title on the top "Subsim.com"
I got heaps of SH3 shots ive taken when playing the game, then when roaming the subsim threads and seeing all the cool images i thought this would go down as a cool desktop if i start collecting them. Although my family hates it, cos i always turn the icons off to get a better view :rock:
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-12-05, 12:54 PM
placing a photo on the internet does not mean it is being placed in the public domain... to assume that can be a costly mistake...
--Mike
kiwi_2005
08-12-05, 01:02 PM
I got a better idea. I got Paint shop Pro9 its about the closest image editor to making cool images i have. Im gonna make my own image :rock: maybe a cut down version of one of my SH3 shots. And then i'll put on my profile.
I got a great idea !
Ill copy alot of the pictures posted here and on the offical forums and put them into a photo album.
Ill call it See Boats and try to sell it for 49.99 ! :-j
Oh wait someone has already thought of that... never mind.
LMAO :-j
hmmmm
just to clarify
The definition of public domain is as follows...
"A creative work, invention or logo that is available for use without permission from its owner. This occurs after patent, trademark or copyright protection has expired."
Therefore if it hasnt been Patented - Trademarked or Copyrighted you cannot prove ownership of the prior art, so there is no protection, real, perceived or otherwise.
Therefore it's in the "public domain"
yankee-V
08-13-05, 01:51 AM
I am no lawyer, but:
The definition that you state has nothing to do with whether an item is free because its on the 'net or not.
"Available for use without permission from its owner" seems to be your stumbling point. The phrase does not mean that since it is readily available to you, on the internet, it therefore is not copyrighted.
All sorts of current things are readily available to view - books, songs, designs. But that has nothing to do with public domain.
If you tried to contest that in a court room you would have to prove "ownership of the prior art"
If you couldnt - you're dead before you begin the case.
That is why if you want to protect your "prior art" you must have proper protections in place.
If those proper protections are not present - anyone could use it - and you would have to prove ownership.
A case like that simply wouldnt get filed. An IPR protection or Patent Attourney simply wouldnt waste their, and the companies time
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-13-05, 08:17 AM
ever hear of watermarking...
or better yet, having the original, with a datestamp on it...
also... this has nothing to do with patents... ever hear of intellectual property rights... no, then look here...
Copyright protection is automatic as soon as there is a record in any form of the material that has been created, and there is no official registration or form or fee. But creators can take certain steps to help prove that material is theirs.
There is no official registration system for copyright in the UK and most other parts of the world. There are no forms to fill in and no fees to pay to get copyright protection. You do not need to register copyright - there is no official registration system. This is why protection is said to be automatic. So long as you have created a work that qualifies for copyright protection, that is it falls into one of the categories of material protected by copyright, then you will have copyright protection without having to do anything to establish this. It is a requirement of various international conventions on copyright that copyright should be automatic with no need to register.
ref http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/auto_protection.htm
now you can believe what you want to, in the light of, or in spite of the facts... but if you want to actually know what you are talking about, there are reams of information concerning this topic all over the net...
if you were ever dragged into a court of law, as you touched upon above, because you took someone's intellectual property and used it without their permission, you'd wind up loosing...
--Mike
They'd still have to prove ownership of the prior art - damned difficult to defend without the proper protections.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-13-05, 09:04 AM
come on now c0sm1c... how hard is it to prove that you made a piece of art...
take for instance, that picture i just posted of SSN23-Jimmy Carter, in another thread... http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41613
do you seriously think i'd have any problems proving that i was the original creator of that pic... and that you were not...
in a court of law, the only proper protection i would need would be proof that i created a work in order to injunct you from further use, and to pursue you for relief of incidental damages...
--Mike
come on now c0sm1c... how hard is it to prove that you made a piece of art...
take for instance, that picture i just posted of SSN23-Jimmy Carter, in another thread... http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41613
do you seriously think i'd have any problems proving that i was the original creator of that pic... and that you were not...
in a court of law, the only proper protection i would need would be proof that i created a work in order to injunct you from further use, and to pursue you for relief of incidental damages...
--Mike
What "PROOF" ?
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-13-05, 06:44 PM
you want proof... what about the sub in the screenshot for instance...
it had to come from somewhere in order to be in that photo...
the judge is gonna ask you... 'do you you happen to have a sub that looks just like the one in the picture anywhere around your pc... anywhere...'
and you're gonna stand there with a blank expression on your face... you'll shift your feet a lil bit... reach in your pockets... hoping that a sub will magically appear in one of em...
... but it won't.
then, i'll show em the development work i did to make the sub... the picture of the final sub on my hard disk... the one with a date stamp on it...
and then the judge will look your way... shake his head... and find you guilty of theft of intellectual property...
for starters...
and you will finally realize what i am trying to explain to you...
--Mike
Oooh I dont want proof specifically -- I 'm just discussing this.
Proof points, before a case is filed, have to be very strong and with supportable evidences given...
Firstly you need to prove ownership -- with what you have there is all circumstantial with no "proper protections" validating claims.
Secondly that probably wouldnt get filed properly and end up in some minor "Arbitration court" as it would be just one persons word against another.
In order to properly validate a claim anyone wishing to copyright their work, giving it the "proper protections", would seek good practitioners in that field of work - Not disclose it before filing, otherwise you place it in the public domain.
Those chosen to practition your "Prior art" would be required to sign non-disclosure agreements first - making a perfect audit trail of events, independent of yourself, validating your claim to ownership.
If your work has strong independent evidences those are proof points adding strength to claim of ownership.
Just saying you own it isnt enough --- date and time stamps using IT systems can be maliciously altered - no Attourney worth his "Silk" would base a case on that.
The world of IPR protection is complex.
It's the same if I was to invent something and I told you about it prior to filing a patent -- YOU could claim ownership of my idea.
Reason??? -- I placed it into the public domain before putting the "proper protections" in place. :arrgh!:
hot yippidee dawg.
mr darcy
08-14-05, 04:47 AM
Just to throw in my tuppence worth.
I don't know if this is the case with subsim.com but i remember reading that some internet forums claim sopyright for what we write on them. I'm at work so i can't spend the time looking at the mo. Heck, i shouldn't be using t'internet at all.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 06:35 AM
telling someone about it... just like posting a picture... does not constitute placing something into the public domain...
someone already alluded to this above...
that's where you are making your first mistake...
your second mistake has to do with your assertion that there needs to be some formal 'protection' put inplace before i could post a picture... or for that matter, play a song i wrote, or display a pinting i painted...
by the very act of creating it it becomes your work of art...
now of course i could claim that i did it... i could claim that i wrote DOOM3... but in a court of law, i'd loose... because the original developers can show that this is their original work...
even if they didn't have any copyrights posted...
do yo see any copyrights on any of Van Goghs paintings...
--Mike
MONOLITH
08-14-05, 07:20 AM
In regard specifically to forum posting....
I just checked subsims user registration verbage, and they don't have it; but some websites state when you sign up, that anything you post becomes the property of that website/domain owner.
Can anyone shed some light on the actual legality of that?
I'm interested because this issue just came up at another site, where business ideas were casually posted among forum members, and now those ideas are being taken and reprinted by the website owner in a different format/location, etc. , somewhat against the will of the original post-ers.
Note the last sentence....
"By pressing the "Agree" button, you agree that you, the user, are 13 years of age or over. You are fully responsible for any information or file supplied by this user. You also agree that you will not post any copyrighted material that is not owned by yourself or the owners of these forums. In your use of these forums, you agree that you will not post any information which is vulgar, harassing, hateful, threatening, invading of others privacy, sexually oriented, or violates any laws. You also agree that all post will become the property of blahblah.com"
kiwi_2005
08-14-05, 07:56 AM
Where do you sailors get these pictures from? WOW! MONOLITH that pic is so cool. Did you create it yourself! what software did you use. Im not coping anymore guys, im in the middle of creating my own.
telling someone about it... just like posting a picture... does not constitute placing something into the public domain...
someone already alluded to this above...
that's where you are making your first mistake...
your second mistake has to do with your assertion that there needs to be some formal 'protection' put inplace before i could post a picture... or for that matter, play a song i wrote, or display a pinting i painted...
by the very act of creating it it becomes your work of art...
now of course i could claim that i did it... i could claim that i wrote DOOM3... but in a court of law, i'd loose... because the original developers can show that this is their original work...
even if they didn't have any copyrights posted...
do yo see any copyrights on any of Van Goghs paintings...
--Mike
lmao
I'm not making any mistakes here ..... hahaha
Just you saying you made it - isnt a case.
you are missing the fundamental point all the time.
By placing proper protections behind it provides you with cover should some else claim they made it or use your "prior art" for their own gains. Good audit trail etc.
If you dont put appropriate measures behind your work, to protect it, before sticking it in the public domain - you will most likely loose it. If anyone were to fight a case on that very weak basis - they would be wasting their money.
On Doom 3 analogy you said it yourself but, again, missed the very point I have always made throughout this thread,... ( please read all again --- it has been carefully worded, throughout)
ID, through their IPR attourneys, would have the proper protections in place prior to anyone knowing about it.
Forums can claim license to the posts and threads as their own -- by placing the correct instruments within the terms and conditions(T's & C's). When you agree to those terms at registration you enter into a contract governing your use of the forums.
The assertion I have made all the way along, is that with no formal protection, anything posted on the web is very very vulnerable to misuse, copying etc.
By applying proper protections you can go some way to secure it.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 11:39 AM
Just you saying you made it - isnt a case.
it's not just me saying it... didn't you read what was posted above... i'll repost it for you seeing as you don't seem to be able to read and comprehend simple text right in front of your eyes...
Copyright protection is automatic as soon as there is a record in any form of the material that has been created, and there is no official registration or form or fee. But creators can take certain steps to help prove that material is theirs.
There is no official registration system for copyright in the UK and most other parts of the world. There are no forms to fill in and no fees to pay to get copyright protection. You do not need to register copyright - there is no official registration system. This is why protection is said to be automatic. So long as you have created a work that qualifies for copyright protection, that is it falls into one of the categories of material protected by copyright, then you will have copyright protection without having to do anything to establish this. It is a requirement of various international conventions on copyright that copyright should be automatic with no need to register.
the above is an excerpt from a government web site, a United Kingdom government information web site, a signing member of the Berne Convention... probably another thing you seem to know nothing about...
they said it
i'm only repeating it for your edification...
but i think that i'm wasting my time with you... you seem to want to just engage in babbling, just for the sake of babbling... i would say arguement, but you don't have any valid arguement... because you obviously don't know what you are talking about...
someone tried to tell you this above...
The definition that you state has nothing to do with whether an item is free because its on the 'net or not.
"Available for use without permission from its owner" seems to be your stumbling point. The phrase does not mean that since it is readily available to you, on the internet, it therefore is not copyrighted.
All sorts of current things are readily available to view - books, songs, designs. But that has nothing to do with public domain
but you didn't listen to them either... you obviously have issues...
maybe it's because in the world that you live in, you know it all... and anything that contradicts the constucts of the bubble that you surround yourself with, immediately sounds your denial alarm... and triggers off a spasmodic reaction in which your mind and your ears and your eyes shut tight... and your fingers start typing all sorts of nonsense...
but in the world that everyone else lives in, things are different... and things are real...
hey... try and open your ears for a second and hear this... i really don't care what you want to believe... it's not my job to convince you that something that you obviously need to believe in is dead wrong... you wanna go ahead deluding yourself about this stuff, go right ahead...
stay stupid if you want to... it's a free world, and you have every right to embrace ignorance and stupidity...
and i support your right to do just that... you're just gonna have to find someone else and waste their time doin it...
or talk to the hand... cause i aint wastin' no more of my time with ya...
--Mike
MONOLITH
08-14-05, 11:45 AM
WOW! MONOLITH that pic is so cool. Did you create it yourself!
Here you go kiwi. You'll find some other cool pics here as well....
http://www.subart.net/u-boat%20&%20leigh%20light.htm
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
You just turned a fairly calm discussion about IPR protection, into attacking me personally. Some moderator you are.
I am not rising to the comments aimed at me personally. If you're just going to make this a personal attack, forget it.
All i can say is you have no idea what your talking about -- my career is related to IPR protection - That stuff you posted up I didnt disagree with -- only the point about strength of protection -- there are no guarantees -- it isnt as black and white as those statements make out.
I work with IPR attourneys daily in the real and hard world of protecting value - therefore coming from a point of experience and knowledge -- you're getting steamed for no reason.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 02:16 PM
typical... when your irrational disregard for the facts are pointed out to you, in plain language, as exactly what they are... you immediately start whining about personal attacks...
no one is attacking you personally... you are the one who showed that logic and reason are beyond you... i merely made it apparent...
and still, you continue to tell me i have no idea what i'm talking about...
for the fifth or sixth time...
it is not me who is saying this... these are references to laws put forth by governments under which you and i live
i went as far to refer you to a government information site... i quoted direct statements from there for you...
and you still continue to say i don't know what i'm talking about...
for the umpteenth time...
IT'S NOT ME!!! i'm just referring to you what the law says...
it's the government talking
and after all this, you still wonder why i assert that you can't understand simple, doo dahhh...
read my lips
i didn't say these things... the people who make and adjudicate the laws of the land said em
now, do what you want... snatch a picture from the subsim web site, and say that you made it... claim that it is yours...
see what happens...
ok, wait... here's a simple, more familiar set of circumstances that just occured just recently... even you should know about this...
the SeeWolfes AddOn Pack...
ask yourself... were many of the intellectual works copyrighted...
ask yourself... are they protected intellectual works, who's rightful authors can seek legal relief against Xone for theft and unlawfull exploitation...
is any of this getting through to you... any at all...
you work with attorneys... doing what, bringing them coffee... you sure can't be discussing copyright law or intellectual property rights under the law, if you keep coming up with the nonesense that you have so far...
in spite of someone trying to point you in the right direction, you insist on talking looney tunes...
i was publishing software back in 1985... probably before you were born... i know just a bit about intellectual property rights...
you obviously don't...
as far as the real world goes... i think i've been around it a lil longer than you have... i'll bet you real world money i know it a lil better than you do...
--Mike
but you didn't listen to them either... you obviously have issues...
maybe it's because in the world that you live in, you know it all... and anything that contradicts the constucts of the bubble that you surround yourself with, immediately sounds your denial alarm... and triggers off a spasmodic reaction in which your mind and your ears and your eyes shut tight... and your fingers start typing all sorts of nonsense...
hey... try and open your ears for a second and hear this... i really don't care what you want to believe... it's not my job to convince you that something that you obviously need to believe in is dead wrong... you wanna go ahead deluding yourself about this stuff, go right ahead...
stay stupid if you want to... it's a free world, and you have every right to embrace ignorance and stupidity...
--Mike
Mike -- What is that, if it isnt an attack personally to me ...the word "you" was used an awful lot in there.
We were just having a discussion on these boards about best practices toward IPR protection.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 03:09 PM
hey look... can ya find someone else to follow around and aggravate...
this is counterproductive to the forum...
and it's certainly unfair to the guy who started this thread...
i'm sure he didn't start it to watch us go back and forth...
and i am in the middle of some work that i need to get finished... so i really don't have time for your juvenile antics...
what can i do for you to go away...
you want me to say that you are the Johnny Cochran of Intellectual Property law... well, then consider it said... noone can hold a candle next to you as far as your knowledge of intellectual property rights, god, and the entire universe...
are ya happy now...
now go bother someone else...
--Mike
Cdre Gibs
08-14-05, 03:30 PM
For a supposed moderator, u have a very bad attitude. I'm not agreeing with either of u an I couldnt careless about the subject matter (laws are different in other countries an all that) but as for the way u have treated a fellow forum user for NO fault of his own ( his opinion is his opinion be it right or wrong) does not warrant ur abrasive response.
The level of civil behaviour NOT shown by a moderator to a forum user has to all intents given the green light to a slag fest for 1 an all, Well Done. Hope ya proud.
(now I suppose I shall be slaged on for stating the bloody obvious about his behavour)
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 03:43 PM
so... what do you propose i do Cmdr...
[added after waiting a while for suggestions]
For a supposed moderator, u have a very bad attitude.
you make a blanket assessment of my attitude based on a single thread, a single interaction with a single individual... might i suggest, seeing as you are interested, that you do a search for all my posts on this forum, and others here... sorta adding a lil balance to your quick off the cuff judgement call...
has to all intents given the green light to a slag fest for 1 an allwell... you have less regard for your forum members than i appear to... to expect them to suddenly go wild after reading my reaction to a persistant nagging personality... on the contrary, the guys here aren't like that... look around you... the food hasn't started flying yet... has it... most of the guys and gals around here are civil, considerate, and intellegent in their interaction with each other... this is an aberation...
it happens, ya know...
for NO fault of his own ( his opinion is his opinion be it right or wrong) does not warrant ur abrasive response. no, it doesn't... that's not why he got an abrasive response...
what say the next time this guy has any difficulty, we let you arbitrate it Cmdr... seeing as everything seems so simple and cut and dry...
you may be right...
but after seeing so many guys here put there work up, and then just recently had it unfairly as well as illegally exploited... well, you might tend to understand my inability to bend over backwards on this matter...
anyone who asserts that unfair use of intellectual property is, or should be validated, simply because the creator has not plastered the words 'copyrighted material' all over his photos, scripts, models, whatever... or anyone who even infers that this is proper... is, as i see it, a menace to all good meaning computer users, not only in this forum... but anywhere that the free and willing desemination of intellectual property is generously provided for our perusal and fair use...
i'm talking about the recent Seewolves incident... on which i have kept as low keyed and fair minded as possible, in light of the way i feel on this...
--Mike
Cdre Gibs
08-14-05, 03:53 PM
Its very simple, be a tad more civil and less in the face routine :)
After all we (ur average forum user) look to the moderators for forum standards - do we not !
Ohh I have seen many a post by ur self, and not trying to be mean or disrespectful, but TACT is not ur stong point :D
(this of course does not mean either that all posts by u are abrasive, just the odd few - somewhat)
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 03:57 PM
and in consideration to you offering your opinions... do as i asked... search the forum for every post made by me...
you are singing to the chorus Cmdr... but, in all reality, i did ask for your suggestions...
they have been noted...
you are dismissed... :D
--Mike
Cdre Gibs
08-14-05, 04:04 PM
NP's, just voicing a wee concern was all.
John Channing
08-14-05, 04:06 PM
OK then, as a completely disinterested third party (and I am not kidding... these "legality" threads bore me to tears) I will step in here and tell everyone to calm down.
Seriously.
Debate and argue all you want, but keep it civil.
JCC
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
08-14-05, 04:14 PM
my post 4 items above states my position completely...
any further debate, on my part, would be a waste of time...
as a matter of fact, the bolded statements are considered to me to be forthright and righteous... fair and upstanding... a law abiding...
and to be honest, whether anyone likes it or not... i am not open to debate on this issue... civil or otherwise...
if i find anyone guilty of knowingly violating the intellectual property rights of hard working people i know and associate with here, i will make every attempt to provide whatever information i can to the proper agencies in an attempt to have the situation rectified...
there's nothing further for me to debate...
--Mike
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