Man the lifeboats! By the book?

[Ula Jolly]

I stumbled across some readings from The Great War, concerning German submarines and their warfare.

While a lot of ugly things happened in this war, the procedure for sinking passenger liners and merchants were in --some-- cases rather kind!
Couldn't we get a mod to the game where we sail up alongside the merchant and order them kindly to get the heck off? :arrgh!:
Or maybe this wasn't practised at all during WWII?

I've previously mentioned that 10,000 tons in a IIA is more honourable than 10,000 tons in a VIIC, but THIS would make for much more honour! :yep:

[Shadow9216]

What you're referring to is the "Prize Rules". In short, merchants could be stopped and inspected; if they were not carrying "contraband" (ie: war materials), they were allowed to pass. If they were deemed to be carrying contraband, they could either be siezed or sunk. If the warship decided to sink the merchant, they were required to ensure all hands were safely off the ship and into lifeboats, given a course towards land, and a notification made.

The Germans adhered to the prize rules in the first part of the war, but gradually abandoned them in favor of unrestricted warfare after it was determined that U-boats were in more danger from the merchants than vice versa.

This is a quick once over, there's much more to it than that.

[Salvadoreno]

Yah the ability to use the "Prize Rules" in the beggining years of the war would be awesome!!! Especially finding those nuetrals with contraband, and being able to search. Woooo.. Awesome.. haha but all in vain.

[iambecomelife]

If only we could. That sort of thing is probably impossible because of the way the existing game engine is set up. Maybe if we ask the devs nicely...

[Ula Jolly]

Who are the "devs" anyway, and how can one suggest things like this to them?

[ShipperS7]

"Excuse me, could you please get off your boat so I can sink it?"

[iambecomelife]

Who are the "devs" anyway, and how can one suggest things like this to them?

The developers of the game. I doubt that they'd offer this, since they refused to allow lifeboats and other indications of human presence on the ships we sink. It seems inconsistent, given that we can blow up the gun crews on warships and armed merchants - why not give the crew a chance to escape?

[slow_n_ez]

I usually put one torpedo into the side of merchants and wait a while... Hopeing that the crew is frantically getting into their lifeboats and moving away ... if it don't sink on its own then either let my deck gunner have target pratice or fire another fish :yep:

[Bear]

Early War - I fire a Star Shell over ship I am about to attack. Give them time to split - then sink the ship. I know they don't leave, but My Honor is intact.

For Neutral ships - I shoot cargo off the deck with a flak gun, but don't sink the ship, but sometimes "Stuff happens" and the darn thing blows up. I was to close once, being a nice little natz and when it blew up it sank my boot. So no more Mr. Nice Guy.

[Laughing Swordfish]

That is one well-trimmed boat!

Talking of survivors how good would it be to pull off something like the Lacona Incident?

[iambecomelife]

The lack of survivors is a major problem with an otherwise groundbreaking game. Think of how differently the Battle of the Atlantic would have been if merchant vessels had been crewless drones and the escorts never needed to worry about rescuing survivors. Also, it's interesting to note that several convoys were discovered by wolfpacks after survivors divulged information about their courses to the U-boats. Not having survivors is in short a very significant handicap for our virtual crews.

[Stymnus]

One of the things that caused the end of the prize rules was that merchants -- even neutrals sometimes -- would try to ram the u-boats after they announced their presence.

The BdU decided that if the enemy wasn't going to play by the rules, then neither could they, as it risked too many of their own men and boats.

[Glassair]

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...The myth is also being telled with respect to the Battle of Britain, only after the bombing of Berlin by the RAF (which was reaction to an error of an Heinkel pilot) Hitler decided to bomb London and not only military installation....

Politics my friend... :dead:

[Ula Jolly]

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...The myth is also being telled with respect to the Battle of Britain, only after the bombing of Berlin by the RAF (which was reaction to an error of an Heinkel pilot) Hitler decided to bomb London and not only military installation....

Politics my friend... :dead:
I guess we can only be glad Hitler was a faulty man altogether, or his officers could actually have won the war - or at least seized control over much of the world. Imagine what it would be if he didn't have an east front! *SHIVER!*

That being said, I'd like to point out that there might not have been such a successful raid on Pearl Harbour, if the Japanese had not learned from the Italians after they had a fleet in port sunk by Swordfish torpedo-bombers.

[Catfish]

Hello,

" ... I guess we can only be glad Hitler was a faulty man altogether, or his officers could actually have won the war - or at least seized control over much of the world. Imagine what it would be if he didn't have an east front! *SHIVER!* ... "

Apart from Hitler being crazy and over-self-estimating he wanted to invade and conquer Russia right from the beginning. There is no world war conceivable without the "expansion to the east". This Hitler-Stalin pact was only a farce so he would be nearer to attack Russia after Poland had be divided between Russia and Germany.
You can truly say that Hitler did not want war with the rest of the world, if only because navy and army were not prepared to engage all of it ;) .

But you have to see that invading Poland actually started the war: Poland, France and England had signed a pact to help each other in case of an attack, so logically England and France declared war on Germany after Poland was attacked. Astonishingly England and France did not declare war to Russia. Hitler (and Doenitz) had hoped England would not engage, but his hate speeches and the deep distrust the British held against him did not help him now. The holding back of the British when invading the Alsatian region, Austria and Chzechia probably made him think he could continue this kind of conquering without an intervention of other states.

To prevent building a platform in France for allied troops to engage Germany, Hitler had the old (Schlieffen) plan of conquering France before that would be possible. Since the states lying between him and France would not allow foreign troops to march through their countries ...
When England tried to invade Norway Hitler again had to prevent another frontline, so he tried to be first, but at what cost ! Germany lost most of its navy and lots of merchant shipping.

Having a pact with Italy Hitler then had to help them win the war in the mediterranean. After having conquered Europe with his allies of the axis he finally did what he wanted to do all the time: Attack Russia.

All generals and military command had told Hitler dozens of times that he would not succeed, and he had always proven them wrong. So otherwise reasonable people slowly began to withdraw and did not speak their mind any more.
At that point everyone should have seen that Germany alone could not hold the territory with its thinned troops, let alone the material resources being necessary - the US supporting England or not.

The second half of the war was not lead by generals or military staff, but almost from a megalomaniac Hitler alone. So ignoring all reason and being that fanatic it was only a question of time until the war would be won by the allies.

Even without an eastern front i do not think Hitler would have succeeded - but it surely would have taken much more effort from the allies.

As for the bombing of civilian targets ... yes the first bombing was done by a Heinkel bombardier in error. When the British hit back bombing Berlin (which did not do much damage, more a kind of psychological retaliation) Hitler in his raving madness gave the order to bomb the whole London area. However the concept of bombing civilian targets had been long since developped in England, however the basic idea came from Italy during the first world war.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Ula Jolly]

I think that feel a bit too far off-topic, however educational. :up:

[Mouseketeer]

I think that feel a bit too far off-topic, however educational. :up:
:yep: but:
As for the bombing of civilian targets ... yes the first bombing was done by a Heinkel bombardier in error. When the British hit back bombing Berlin (which did not do much damage, more a kind of psychological retaliation) Hitler in his raving madness gave the order to bomb the whole London area.
:huh: :huh: :huh: An error????? What about bombing Warsaw and other Polish cities in september 39??? Whole bunch of errors????? :nope: :nope: :down:

[Catfish]

Hello,
only said this because Hitler did not primarily want to attack or bomb british cities because he considered the British to be the same "race" - this man did have queer ideas :roll:
It certainly was not the first bombing of civilian targets, besides the ones you mentioned the german "Legion Condor" helped dictator Franco against the leftist revolution in Spain before the war.
Greetings,
Catfish

[Mouseketeer]

Yeah, I was thinking abou this and as I returned to forum I saw your reply. Yeah you're right and you and Glassair were talking about bombing London, sorry for that :oops: I have much to learn using and first of all reading english :oops:

Back to topic: I'm not asking as much, for me it will be enough if I could sink neutral ships placed in enemy convoys :damn: :damn: I really get upset when I see a convoy consisting of about 10 coastal and small merchants and a T-3 and some C-3, when I got closer what do I see?? All C-3s and a tanker with american flags :damn: :damn: :damn: .
Fortunatelly it's July 41 and soon I will have them all :arrgh!:
On the other hand implementing prize rules will make this simulation (it's not a game anymore:) ) superb.

Only sky is a limit!!!!
Pozdro (best wishes) 4 all modders, skins makers and members of SubSim community. :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Stealth Hunter]

I stumbled across some readings from The Great War, concerning German submarines and their warfare.

While a lot of ugly things happened in this war, the procedure for sinking passenger liners and merchants were in --some-- cases rather kind!
Couldn't we get a mod to the game where we sail up alongside the merchant and order them kindly to get the heck off? :arrgh!:
Or maybe this wasn't practised at all during WWII?

I've previously mentioned that 10,000 tons in a IIA is more honourable than 10,000 tons in a VIIC, but THIS would make for much more honour! :yep:

NO, NO, NO. Taking prisoners costs the government money. Warn them that they are about to be sunk (only if they're a crappy tramp steamer; you know what I'm getting at) and that they have X amount of time to get off before you sink them. Don't pick them up. Leave them to their fate at sea.

However, if intelligence had a report that the ship in my area was a large passenger ship and that it carried someone VERY important (say an ambassador or a senator or a Parliament member), then I would give no warning and I would launch a full salvo at them. After which, any survivors in lifeboats would be machine-gunned to prevent the hope of the official surviving in the most incognito duelist manner possible. In short, kill those that have something escape-worthy and assume the rest are going to die before help gets there and/or that the official was taken down with the ship, shot, or is drifting and dying among the many survivors. The North Atlantic is not kind to shipwrecked passengers.

[GoldenRivet]

i have read about sub skippers who would fire three or four shells into a tub and pull along side a life raft and ask "where is the captain of this ship?" then he would say "are all of your men safely off the boat?" upon being satisfied that all were indeed off he would resume the attack on the now abandoned hull.

[Brag]

I stumbled across some readings from The Great War, concerning German submarines and their warfare.

While a lot of ugly things happened in this war, the procedure for sinking passenger liners and merchants were in --some-- cases rather kind!
Couldn't we get a mod to the game where we sail up alongside the merchant and order them kindly to get the heck off? :arrgh!:
Or maybe this wasn't practised at all during WWII?

I've previously mentioned that 10,000 tons in a IIA is more honourable than 10,000 tons in a VIIC, but THIS would make for much more honour! :yep:

I've met an Anglo-Brazilian old boy who volunteered for the RAF. His ship was intercepted by a U-boat in mid-Atlantic, ordered to stop and abandon ship. After the U-boat torpedoed the liner the U-boat approached the lifeboats, checked if they had supplies and gave them the heading for Dakar.

[Sailor Steve]

Original topic: Yes, during the Great War the Germans originally confronted ships and allowed them to get away first. This allowed them to sink the merchants with scuttling charges, thereby saving torpedoes and deck gun ammo, as well as lives. Unfortunately it also lead to the development of the Q-ships; merchants with hidden guns which could end an unsuspecting u-boat's career very quickly. Some of them even played elaborate 'abandon ship' charades to draw the u-boat even closer. This is a major reason leading to unrestricted submarine warfare.

In WW2 the u-boats were torpedoing merchants right from the start.

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...
I would refer you to the Laconia incident:
http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm

German sailors showed considerable honor with respect to survivors.