Type XXI. Do you know that...

[msxyz]

A Type XXI with its standard battery comprised of 372 elements, lead-acid accumulators weighting 620Kg each could travel for about 400Nm underwater at 5Kts

The heavvy duty batteries of the day could hold about 35Wh/Kg of energy. Modern Lead acid accumulators nearly double that figure with 60Wh/Kg for long discharges.

A type XXI equipped with modern Varta-Hagen batteries designed for submarines would be able to travel for 700Nm at 5 Kts.

If we decide to use more effective accumulators like Silver-Zinc or Silver-Iron (employed by some russian subs but very expensive) the total underwater range of the XXI might be extended to some 1200 (!) Nm at 5Kt. That means 10 days underwater. Naturally we would have to install some air recycler apparatus as the air onboard a type XXI lasts only for 48 hrs.

Just for comparison, a modern fuel cell or AIP submarine like the Gotland, U-214 or Agosta 90B can travel for about 1500Nm before having to resurface. And since the AIP system needs special fuel, once the stores are exhausted its underwater range is much lower, about 300Nm

Would the XXI still be a kickass submarine ?. Probably not. Too much noisy with its conventional design propellers. A damn fine design for its time and for the following 20 years, though.

[SeaSlug_U999]

I concurr.

PS: I've extended a bit the batt life on my XXI, just fot the fun of it. I can do now 650Nm at 6kts (4 days). I snorkes sometimes (briefly) for O2 each day. On the 5th i recharge them (takes 20hs)

[msxyz]

Too bad, sh3 has recharge rates and underwater oxygen endurance wrong for the type XXI

[Nightowl]

BUMP.... I'm interested in hearing more regarding the Type XXI

[Fritz]

the XXI is considdered by both western and eastern experts as the "Grandfather" of all modern subs, as it's design was so far fetched that it litterary scared the **** out of the allied command.

the sub was litterary invissible to allied underwater hearing equipment.

the allies didnt know about it's exelent submerged speed until long after germanys surrender, they thought that the bullet shaped design had a mere 1-2 kts advantage over the old design, thinking that german industry, was smashed form the prolonged aircampaings.

as i see it, the XXI's only down side is no main gun, and no rear firing torpedo tube so u need to eighter lay and wait for target to pass infront, OR turn the sub completly around.

[Cdre Gibs]

In late 1944 they were planning two variants ("type XXI B" and "XXI C"). The first variation forsaw another six torpedo tubes to the bow, but aiming aft down the side of the sub, 3 per side. In the second variation the number of torpedo tubes increase to 18 tubes (six to launch forward, twelve to launch aft, 6 per side). In both variations the Flack Guns were upgraded to 37mm and the maximum length of the boat was 83 meters long.

[Nopileo]

Wow, 12 rear-firing tubes?! :o That sub would have been great in a convoy. Just keep ahead of the convoy and fire until all ships were gone... :ping:

Interesting stuff guys. Keep it coming! :up:

[Duli]

Very interesting, that thing about the XXI B and C model.

[kholemann]

I have the technical drawings, would y'all like to see scans of them subs? I got the book when I visited the U505 back in 1980 and it had the technical drawings in them, a very small book.

[Duli]

Yes, I would like to see them. :up:

[Kernel]

Yes Please do. :yep:

[Zie Chuckinator]

A Type XXI with its standard battery comprised of 372 elements, lead-acid accumulators weighting 620Kg each could travel for about 400Nm underwater at 5Kts

The heavvy duty batteries of the day could hold about 35Wh/Kg of energy. Modern Lead acid accumulators nearly double that figure with 60Wh/Kg for long discharges.

A type XXI equipped with modern Varta-Hagen batteries designed for submarines would be able to travel for 700Nm at 5 Kts.

If we decide to use more effective accumulators like Silver-Zinc or Silver-Iron (employed by some russian subs but very expensive) the total underwater range of the XXI might be extended to some 1200 (!) Nm at 5Kt. That means 10 days underwater. Naturally we would have to install some air recycler apparatus as the air onboard a type XXI lasts only for 48 hrs.

Just for comparison, a modern fuel cell or AIP submarine like the Gotland, U-214 or Agosta 90B can travel for about 1500Nm before having to resurface. And since the AIP system needs special fuel, once the stores are exhausted its underwater range is much lower, about 300Nm

Would the XXI still be a kickass submarine ?. Probably not. Too much noisy with its conventional design propellers. A damn fine design for its time and for the following 20 years, though.

where did u get all that?

[AtaruGolan]

I wait for new xxi :D

[Hellcat]

hmmmm looking at the appendix in Rossler's "The U-Boat" the Type XXIC was designed with 6 forward tubes, with 12 side tubes... looking at the drawings they are placed ahead of the conning tower angled off the centerline facing aft in two rows of 3 tubes. (6 on each side) However according to the book it seems that there was no room for reloads.

The Type XXIB carried no reloads either, in it's case it only carried 12 shots. (6 in the forward tubes and 6 in the side tubes)

msxyz, I'm curious what your source of data is concerning range, from what I've read in several books that the type XXI submerged range is just shy of 300 miles at optimum speed.

[P_Funk]

I think that the type XXI is just a solid, well thought out design which hasn't been outdated just in its basic shape. How much German technology is still noticeable today? V2 rockets became the basis for the American Nasa program, XXI was "grandfather" for all modern subs, first functioning jet fighter craft created by Nazi germany, even the late developed Stg-44 was basically the prototype design for what would be the AK-47 (even looks the same:http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm). German scientists were ahead of their time. Some technology won't become truly obsolete until the next technology revolution.

[Crop-Duster]

German 'engineering' was ahead of it's time.

Fixed that for you :|\

[Harry Buttle]

first functioning jet fighter craft created by Nazi germany,

Hardly, the Gloster Meteor was in service first and was a better aircraft.

[STEED]

first functioning jet fighter craft created by Nazi germany,

Hardly, the Gloster Meteor was in service first and was a better aircraft.

Better aircraft no way the ME262 was faster, heavier armed it would had shot down the Gloster Meteor.

Any way getting back to the subject the Type XXI U-Boat was a radical design but even it entered service in 1943 at best the war would have dragged on for another six months a year a best.

[NeonSamurai]

The main problem the 262 had was its crappy engines which would catch fire if throttled up too fast, and they had a very short life span. That and Hittler's insistance that it be able to carry bombs (which delayed it's entry into the war by around 1.5 years or so).

Alot of the design concepts were later copied (like the swept back wing shape/concept, which was seen on virtualy all the second generation jet fighters during Korea).

Also according to my research the meteor was not the first operational jet fighter, it came in a few weeks behind the me262. It was the first operational jet fighter for the allies however. As for a fight between the 2 aircraft i think the me262 would have come out ahead, though its engines were less reliable and the meteor was a bit more manuverable, the 262 was significantly faster, and much better armed (4 20mm vs 4 30mm)

[STEED]

HE-179 flew in 1939 and don't forget HE-280 as well which lost out to the ME-262

[NeonSamurai]

Yep but neither of those reached operational status ahead of the me262 (operational status meen there are deployed squadrons using that plane)

[STEED]

HE-179 was a prototype which went on to become the HE-280 which lost out to the ME-262 in the bidding stakes. Never the less the HE-280 was ready well before 1944

[Fishmachine]

even the late developed Stg-44 was basically the prototype design for what would be the AK-47 (even looks the same:http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm).

Nope, that's a common mistake. Stg-44's resembles externally the AK, but internally they are completely different. The principle could (and most probably did) came from the Stg-44, but the design is different.
Moreover, the gas operating system of Stg-44 derives from russian AWT and SWT, which were captured by Nazis in the first months of their eastern campaign. Germans didn't use gas operating systems before, believing that reducing gas pressure in the barrel before projectile leaves, leads to significant velocity losses. Almost all of german guns worked on the free-blowback or delayed-blowback principle. Saying who copied who is not so simple after all then ;)

German scientists were ahead of their time. Some technology won't become truly obsolete until the next technology revolution.

Yes, but instead of focusing on numbers of manufactured weapons, they created hundreds and thousands of prototypes, wasting time and resources. This was mostly Hitler's doing, with his dream of Vunderaffe and the illusion of Germans as Ubermenshen. But who knows, how would the world look now, if the'd focus more on nuclear weapons...
Whole friggin' luck, they didn't ;)

[JSLTIGER]

even the late developed Stg-44 was basically the prototype design for what would be the AK-47 (even looks the same:http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm).

Nope, that's a common mistake. Stg-44's resembles externally the AK, but internally they are completely different. The principle could (and most probably did) came from the Stg-44, but the design is different.
Moreover, the gas operating system of Stg-44 derives from russian AWT and SWT, which were captured by Nazis in the first months of their eastern campaign. Germans didn't use gas operating systems before, believing that reducing gas pressure in the barrel before projectile leaves, leads to significant velocity losses. Almost all of german guns worked on the free-blowback or delayed-blowback principle. Saying who copied who is not so simple after all then ;)

Additionally, the StG-44's mechanism was far more delicate than the later AK-47's. There were reports of the weapons (StG-44s) jamming when exposed to extreme conditions, whereas AK-47s can go through just about any kind of hell (for a gun) and still fire.

[Fishmachine]

Additionally, the StG-44's mechanism was far more delicate than the later AK-47's. There were reports of the weapons (StG-44s) jamming when exposed to extreme conditions, whereas AK-47s can go through just about any kind of hell (for a gun) and still fire.

That's why there were attempts to build delayed-blowback version (Stg-45), but it was already too late for mass production. Afterall, it was not much more defective as any other personal automatic weapon of its times. From what I red, there were many problems with buttstocks, mounted only with one screw and a piece of sheet iron, which also made them completely unsuitable for HTH combat.

About the AK's - yes, they are usually more resistant to enviroment than other assault rifles, but many of stories of their indestructibility are just urban legends, coming from comparing them to early, defective M-16's in Vietnam. Which doesn't change the fact, that one AK covered with sand, left in burning oil and run over by tank (exact sequence) actually fired full magazine without jamming ;)

[Tonnage_Ace]

Some technology won't become truly obsolete until the next technology revolution.

Ya, the next World War. Seems their[wars] very good at accelerating ingenuity.

Also, saw this great doc on a British raid on a heavy water factory in Norway. When the Germans were transporting the remaining heavy water out of the country to Germany, the ferry transporting it was sunk in the deepest part of the water by commandos. Around 14 civilians were lost but what a sacrifice. Scary how close they were to building a bomb.

[brumbarchris]

Scary how close they were to building a bomb.

But who knows, how would the world look now, if the'd focus more on nuclear weapons...
Whole friggin' luck, they didn't

I am somewhat outraged by you people who are so afraid about what the germans would have done with the Vunderwaffe. But while you are thinking about this please remember that this is all hypothetical, while it is the allies who instantly killed some tens of thousands of civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki; it is still them of blasted Dresda in the last few days of war; they too smashed to ground the island from northern Germany just to give satisfaction to the ego of Harris "The Bomber"...and the list may go on until present days.

And if you are wondering how the world would have been if they had won the war then the answer is simple: better. Of course this comes from a person who lives in Eastern Europe, in a country which suffered for 50 years the soviet occupation after WWII. My country (Romania) was also allied with Germany during the crucial times of the war.

Regards,
Chris

[NeonSamurai]

It would probably be best if we dont get into such a discussion. Its garanteed to lead to a flame war. Also do not forget that the germans did plenty of terrible things themselves both at home, and in the countries they captured. All the countries involved in that war commited attrocities/war crimes to various extents.

[STEED]

It would probably be best if we dont get into such a discussion. Its garanteed to lead to a flame war. Also do not forget that the germans did plenty of terrible things themselves both at home, and in the countries they captured. All the countries involved in that war commited attrocities/war crimes to various extents.

Well said. :yep:

[Tonnage_Ace]

while it is the allies who instantly killed some tens of thousands of civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Very true, the bombings are believed to be unnecessary being that the Japanese High Command was close to surrendering. But I also lived in Japan during the 2nd Iraq war and this discussion always came up. Many I've talked to have the opinion that the bombings were a good thing in that it ended the bloody war of attrition in the Pacific and brought down the Imperialistic generals and Emperor who were running the country down a path they think was wrong(ergo, it saved lives). many believe their country beared a sacrifice to show the world the horror of nuclear weapons, that they should never be used again.

And if you are wondering how the world would have been if they had won the war then the answer is simple: better. Of course this comes from a person who lives in Eastern Europe, in a country which suffered for 50 years the soviet occupation after WWII

I can't begin to empathise with you because I live in Vancouver but I do sympathise. Just remember that Hitler had a master plan concerning the Eastern Europeans and Russians along with the Jews. Turning them into a subjugated people to run his industries while the German people were given 'lebensraum' or living space in Western Europe.

It would probably be best if we dont get into such a discussion. Its garanteed to lead to a flame war.

I don't think appeasement is the way, ahem, we can all be civil in this debate.

[Fishmachine]

It's all just the old, sad, Fallout style, truth: War, war never changes... :arrgh!:
So quit talking about politics and go sink some ships! Also, this is a thread about technology, so flame war is only allowed if one speaks about Flammenwerfers ;)

[Tonnage_Ace]

Here here.

[Cdre Gibs]

They say that necessity is the father of invention, if this is true then war is its mother. On a scale such as a world war, necessity takes on a whole new meaning. Its a sad fact that it takes these kind of events to make large leaps in technology. Since WWII no real leap has taken place, oh we have refined a lot of what was invented in WWII and taken that too new levels to be sure. And yes we have developed new Tech, but only slowly and usually as an offshoot of existing Tech. Think long and hard, no real new break through has really taken place.

Its only in these present days that we see a new driving force for technology, be it the price of oil to the threat of terrorists, but when you look under the hood its remarkable how much of the new tech is redefined and refined from existing practices.

Will it take another Wold War to drive necessity to the level thats required to make the leap. I sure as hell hope not, we may not all survive the next 1.

[Tonnage_Ace]

I think you could say computers(what were typing on right now) are the greatest revolution since WW2. If a WW3 were to happen it would probably Artificial Intelligence and robotics. I read an article on Unmanned Ground Vehicles in Popular Mechanics where armed tracked vehicles and support vehicles would travel in convoys, much like ships in WW2, to and from the front line. The Predator drone today is possible because writing code for flying in the air is relatively easier than writing to avoid obstacles on the ground, this is where the leaps in AI will come in. The armed 'bots won't decide to kill or not by themselves(this may come later when the identification software improves) but will be controlled remotely, much the Predator drones of today.