More reasons not to buy the F35

[Skybird]

https://youtu.be/CKNPCk-fd8I?si=8f5OJ1wKxZ1pChug

[mapuc]

HA! The authorities here have been spoken highly about this F35 fighter jet how great it is despite the price for each of them.

Denmark decided to buy 27.

I still don't understand why Denmark didn't buy the JAS 39 Gripen.

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

I hope that our procurement officials see this video

[Eisenwurst]

Damn:Kaleun_Mad: I just bought one.:mad:

[Skybird]

Damn:Kaleun_Mad: I just bought one.:mad:
Trouble with the wife...? :D Wives' cant fly, so safely pick an A-10 instead. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Potentially most worrying.

[Catfish]

But they can fly so nice in formation, automatically :O:

Seriously, I woulf have waited and pushed the development of an own or at least european fighter system. No one has seen the F35 performing in combat, also the use of scamming devices used in Ukraine has established that even EMP hardened electronic systems are not safe.

[mapuc]

But they can fly so nice in formation, automatically :O:

Seriously, I woulf have waited and pushed the development of an own or at least european fighter system. No one has seen the F35 performing in combat, also the use of scamming devices used in Ukraine has established that even EMP hardened electronic systems are not safe.

They have been in combat-When Israel attacked Iran.

Markus

[Catfish]

^ You are correct, Sir :salute:

[Skybird]

Seriously, I woulf have waited and pushed the development of an own or at least european fighter system.
Time pressure, they said, to maintain the "nukleare Teilhabe". The existing license for the German carrier aircraft runs out, the Eurofighter'S licensing was endlessly delayed by the americans to make us buy their F-35 (r F-18, I am not certain wether the Hornet was also offered). The French-German cooperation on a new plane has collapsed or is close to collapse. A new fighter design is too many years away. 10+ years.



There is the Gripen and the Rafale and the Eurofighter. Which are the way to go regarding conventional armed fighters. I think the nukleare Teilhabe is sooner or later a thing of the past anyway. I think a new major update version for the Eurofighter is in devklopment, and far advanced in progress, I think I red that. We should go with that. The price of the EF drops the more are beign ordered.



We need to push the numbers. Numbers matter. Lesson from Ukraine.

[Platapus]

40,000 per flight hour?


Yikes

[Skybird]

They have been in combat-When Israel attacked Iran.

Markus
If I understood it correctly, their F35s dont phone back home to the US and Lockheed all the time. When they got delivered, they ripped out quite some of the electronics and replaced them with their own.
Easier said than done, I would assume.


Surprisngly, the F35 is cheaper than the Eurofighter. Around roughly 80-85 million verusus 120-130 million. Howeverm the maintetance and lifecycle costs must be counted as wellm, and I would assume here the Eurofighter has an advanatge, the F35 is said to eb tricky, When i red abotu it yesterday, the website said that right at this time 49% of the American F35s are grounded, only 51%are operational.

[Jimbuna]

Should never have retired the Spitfire :salute:

[Skybird]

^ At high flight altitude, yes. In medium and low altitudes, the FW190. :O:

[Dargo]

Europe has the jets, so Germany go French and buy only European.

[Eichhörnchen]

https://theaviationist.com/2025/03/13/portugal-f-35-plans/

There's going to be no autonomy when operating these - if they can be switched off at the precocious whim of a man-child, who's going to want them?

[Jimbuna]

Good point but try telling that to Two Tier Keir.

[mapuc]

No doubt the Swedish fighter jet is a better choice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bbk-9kzMh4&ab_channel=Megaprojects

Markus

[Dargo]

After Portugal, Canada now wants to get rid of US F-35 fighter jets. Canadian Defence Minister Bill Blair announced a few hours after his reappointment to Prime Minister Mark Carney's new cabinet that the country is looking for other options (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-blair-trump-1.7484477). Canada has an order outstanding for F-35s worth some $19 billion. A majority of Canadians want to get rid of this, as the southern neighbour has proved to be a highly unreliable partner. In total, Canada has ordered 88 fighter jets, 16 of which have already been paid for. According to Blair, Canada is now looking at supplementing the rest of the fleet with aircraft of European make, such as the Swedish Saab Gripen. On Friday, Portugal preceded Canada in saying it no longer wants the F35, formerly known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Portugal's defence minister gave the unpredictable behaviour of US President Trump as the reason.

[Jimbuna]

I suspect others will follow but that begs the question, Does Two Tier Keir have the balls to fo;;ow as well?

[Dargo]

The Dutch will not follow, but then we are too much involved in this aircraft economical and basically a US air force in Europe.

[Dargo]

Türkiye’s bid to acquire Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets is advancing steadily, with the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence officially submitting a sales proposal to Türkiye’s Ministry of National Defence. According to Turkish media reports citing sources, Türkiye’s defence ministry is now conducting a thorough review of the sales offer, a critical step in the procurement process. “We previously announced that an official document had been prepared regarding the acquisition of 40 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets to meet the operational demands of our air force. This document was submitted to the UK Ministry of Defence and the relevant manufacturer, with the expectation of receiving a counteroffer,” a source told Turkish media. “The anticipated offer has now reached our ministry, and the evaluation process is currently underway.” https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/turkiyes-eurofighter-typhoon-deal-gains-momentum-as-uk-submits-formal-offer/

[Jimbuna]

I'm sure we could dig up a few Spitfires if they want a wider choice :)

[Aktungbby]

Should never have retired the Spitfire :salute:

I'm sure we could dig up a few Spitfires if they want a wider choice :) I'm in favor of Sopwith Camels myself:O:....the overall 'wonder weapon' mentality(ala Hitler) against its cost and maintenance, incl. serious downtime as both a carrier and landbased aircraft guaranteed to achieve air supremacy in the coming WW III's two-front war against Russia and China causes me serious concern$.

[Ostfriese]

I'm in favor of Sopwith Camels myself:O:....the overall 'wonder weapon' mentality(ala Hitler) against its cost and maintenance, incl. serious downtime as both a carrier and landbased aircraft guaranteed to achieve air supremacy in the coming WW III's two-front war against Russia and China causes me serious concern$.


I guess Sopwith Camels would be somewhat difficult to spot these days. They are small, have few metallic parts and a low power engine, both of which would make it surprisingly difficult to detect them on radar or on infrared. They are also quite slow, which would make them difficult to shoot at from a fast aircraft. And they fly at a relatively low altitude. They'd be an easy prey for ground based air defence, though, and they can only carry a small payload (but more than SpaceX's Starship!) :D:haha:

[mapuc]

Can't find anything on Denmarks plan on buying this F 35 If they have changed their mind or so. So far they have got 10 of them.

Looks like they are both blind and deaf or in deep love with this fighter jet.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

As much as I hate to admit it, at this juncture with the current US administration, it would benefit all NATO members to look for another EU based platform.

[Dargo]

We already have that choice with several European companies that all are build with NATO integration. Like with other equipment, they all can be used jointly because they all are build with NATO standardization.

[Aktungbby]

They'd be an easy prey for ground based air defence, though, and they can only carry a small payload (but more than SpaceX's Starship!) :D:haha::hmmm:...as the twin Spandau'd Ace of Aces Baron found out the hard way chasing one Sopwiith Camel with another on his 'six'; only to "buy the farm" laterally from a Lewis gunner on the ground near a beetfield....:oops::dead:

[Catfish]

As much as I hate to admit it, at this juncture with the current US administration, it would benefit all NATO members to look for another EU based platform.
Yes, but Europe needs fighters in numbers now, not in 20+ years.

Also, as i heard the F35 electronic systems can be replaced, as a friend of mine working said "it is not that complicated, and we are quite good at it (...just like Israel)".

[mapuc]

Yes, but Europe needs fighters in numbers now, not in 20+ years.

Also, as i heard the F35 electronic systems can be replaced, as a friend of mine working said "it is not that complicated, and we are quite good at it (...just like Israel)".


They, the Israelis, were allowed to erase the original programming and substitute it with their own-As said in the video provided by Skybird in the first post.

There are lots of production of fighter jets in Europe. Jets who is as good as the F 35. Which mean we don't have to wait 20+ years

Markus

[Catfish]

:hmmm:...as the twin Spandau'd Ace of Aces Baron found out the hard way chasing one Sopwiith Camel with another on his 'six'; only to "buy the farm" laterally from a Lewis gunner on the ground near a beetfield....:oops::dead:
OT
An australian forum member in the Aerodrome forum still believes (or wants to believe) von R. was shot down by the following Sopwith 'Camel', because this is written in the official reports.. after reading some books I am convinced it was the australian ground gunner.

But in reality it was of course much different (Lord Flasheart meets von Richthofen):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFwflbMo2c

[Catfish]

They, the Israelis, were allowed to erase the original programming and substitute it with their own-As said in the video provided by Skybird in the first post.

There are lots of production of fighter jets in Europe. Jets who is as good as the F 35. Which mean we don't have to wait 20+ years

Markus
I did not have the impression you need the allowance.
But you are right, there are good fighters existing.

[Skybird]

Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter all three are better dogfighters than the F-35. However, the point of the F-35 is to not get engaged in visual range dogfightign at all.



The Eurofighter has superior thrust. No other plane rocks forward and accelerates in the vertical like this one. Its also the aircraft with the longest range of the three, this and its speed and thrust make it more an interceptor and air superiority fighter with ground attack capabilities than a true multi role aircraft. It is not stealthed in material, but has active electronic counter measures and a small rader reflection index - except the engine inlets, a weak spot of all non-stealthed airplanes. It has rich and diverse armament now. Took it some time to grow itself the fangs and claws, but it now has them. Disadvantage: highest price of them all, bigger radar crossection than the Gripen.


Gripen: probably the best choice for nations not maintaining superior infrastructre, the Gripen is robust and can be maintained under quite "primitive" conditions". Air combat it does best at lower altitudes than higher altitudes. Unstealthed, but a very robust ECM suite to compensate for that. Not an outstanding winner in any combat- or flight-specific category, but a very solid, good allround performer and a true multi role aircraft. Could need some more diversifaction of armament, but it getting the Taurus launch ability, in its latest version. Very good dogfighter, second only to the Eurofighter. Cheaper than the Eurofighter. Needs less and shorter maintenance. Does not have the speed and long legs, is the smallest of the three.



Rafale: is fast, and agile both at low and high speeds, second only to the Eurofighter, thats why it is a solid choice both for air and ground combat. Maintenance is more cost-intensive than for Gripen or Eurofighter, but it has a smaller radar crossection than the Eurofighter. Still, its the most expensive plane to operate of them three. Different to the French Leclerk tank, the rafale has a reputation to work reliably and not being prone to electronic malfunctions.



They all three are very good allrounders, but they are different in details, costs and maiontenance time. The Eurofighter is probably the best, and while being not as expensive and complicated to maintani as the Rafale, its the most expensive to buy.



I see nothing wrong in Eurpe havign all three. Eurofighters trending towards air superiority roles, Rafale towards multi role, Gripen towards operating in less than ideal support conditions. I think they all can list justifications enough to operate them all three.

[Catfish]

[...]
I see nothing wrong in Eurpe havign all three. Eurofighters trending towards air superiority roles, Rafale towards multi role, Gripen towards operating in less than ideal support conditions. I think they all can list justifications enough to operate them all three.
I agree, also this really fuels the european trade ..

https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/03/04/trump-zelensky-vance-ukraine-defense-arms/

"Trump is killing the US defense industry, it turns out that abandoning allies and tossing out security guarantees is bad for business"

"It may seem obvious that governments should think through their policies before implementing them; if they don’t, they risk encountering the dreaded law of unintended consequences. That’s exactly what’s happening in the United States’ defense-industrial policy.

While U.S. defense stocks are slumping, European defense stocks are rising quickly because the markets have concluded that those governments will be spending lots more on defense. And every government around the world knows what happened to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky last week in the Oval Office."

The conclusion that many leaders will draw from the altercation that U.S. President Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance had with Zelensky is that U.S. security guarantees—a key reason why countries tend to buy U.S. weapons—are not going to be a convincing argument anymore. So far, Trump’s efforts to “make America great again” have been miserable for that all-important U.S. power pillar: the defense industry.

Ouch. Since Trump’s inauguration, shares in the six biggest U.S. defense companies have fallen by an average of 4 percent. Meanwhile, shares of Europe’s largest defense groups—including Germany’s Rheinmetall—“have surged” by almost 40 percent in the same period, the Financial Times reported on Feb. 25.

On March 3, the first trading day after Trump’s acrimonious meeting with Zelensky on Friday and European leaders’ subsequent defense summit in London over the weekend, European defense stocks made an even bigger leap: At close of trade on Monday, Italy’s Leonardo was up by more than 17 percent and France’s Thales by almost as much; Rheinmetall rose by 15 percent, and Saab of Sweden rose by nearly 12 percent. [...]

[Dargo]

If we're going to Europe first, we need more of the materials that we now export to the US with high tariffs, so a win for our economy in the long term.Those who buy Patriot systems should be offered the new generation Franco-Italian SAMP/T. Those who buy F-35s should be offered Rafale.