New kaleun; a few realism questions

[kaleidemiller]

Hello, frens!

I have some experience with military sims (mainly flight sims), but I'm new to Silent Hunter (and sub sims in general). As such, I've a few questions regarding realism, if you'll indulge me. SH3 + Onealex mod. Out-of-the-box settings, except that I turned off crew fatigue -- not a captain's job, imo, and not something that interests me from a simulation perspective.

1) Regarding the map view (F5)... Would there have been officers or POs in the control center constantly updating the position of enemy ships on the navigation map? Would I, as captain, have been able to visualize a ship's movement imposed upon the map... if not to the same real-time extent as the game portrays?

2) How accurate was the range estimate from the hydrophone operator? In the game, you can use the hydrophone contact vector to fairly accurately determine the range. Was that possible?

3) How does the community feel about using the F5 map for plotting a targeting solution? Do "real kaleuns" solely use periscope target recognition and speed/range determination, aided by clues from the hydrophone operator?

Regardless, I've very much enjoyed my time with the game so far! Currently in December 1939, having started a 1st flotilla career based in Kiel. 26,000 tons sunk after five patrols... and quite a lot of malfunctioning torpedoes!

All the more satifsying when they DO find their targets. :p

[derstosstrupp]

1) Regarding the map view (F5)... Would there have been officers or POs in the control center constantly updating the position of enemy ships on the navigation map? Would I, as captain, have been able to visualize a ship's movement imposed upon the map... if not to the same real-time extent as the game portrays?

Typically only the navigator, and only at the request of the commander. Plotting was very typical when shadowing a convoy in order to determine zig pattern, speed etc. A plot of each individual ship though wouldn’t happen. In short, the plot was primarily used as a means to determine target data, and not so much for situational awareness.


2) How accurate was the range estimate from the hydrophone operator? In the game, you can use the hydrophone contact vector to fairly accurately determine the range. Was that possible?

Very inaccurate. There are instances in the historical record of experienced sound men being totally confused about the distance of certain sounds, in one memorable case aboard U-47, which picked up explosions that turned out to be miles away, which the operator mistook as right on top of the boat. Passive listening was so dependent on ambient factors (sea state, water depth, salinity, stratification etc) that conditions were often far less than ideal.


3) How does the community feel about using the F5 map for plotting a targeting solution? Do "real kaleuns" solely use periscope target recognition and speed/range determination, aided by clues from the hydrophone operator?

It provides far too much information. During a submerged attack, the commander was looking through the attack periscope in the tower making all the decisions for the approach based on what he saw there, assisted by the navigator, who used slide rules and tables to assist him there. Surfaced, the commander would be on the bridge overseeing the situation and supervising the I.WO, who was doing the aiming at the UZO.

Silent Hunter series provides no middle ground. Map contacts on provides way more information at a glance than any real commander could dream of, and map contacts off falls short as well as you are almost entirely dependent on what you yourself can see/gather. In real life, data gathering was normally a team effort - a target would be followed on a parallel course at max range for a time and its speed and course matched (called “Ausdampfen”), or the data was determined by plotting. The officers had a little pow-wow and agreed on the course and speed, and these were documented in the KTB. At the time of the shot, the data was then confirmed by estimation. This is how SH targeting falls short - either you “have it all”, or you are forced to be on your own. That said, I personally play no map contacts, as I find using the historical data gathering methods (matching, plotting, estimating) to be a big part of my enjoyment.

[Hooston]

Excellent post. "Silent Hunter series provides no middle ground." That's the problem in a nutshell. With manual targeting you tend to be very busy doing several people's jobs, but if you let the AI do things for you it does them much too well.
In particular without radar it was very difficult in real life to calculate range to target - whether by hydrophone, periscope, Uzo or naked eye. Using the mast height or ship length for range was not very practical when there was such a vast number of merchant ship types.

Historically there were a number of clever methods of deriving a target solution without having to directly measure range to target accurately. Can I recommend Tonci87's excellent series on "U-tube"? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOWnCqHDRIVLtu0-VcvIg-rUT4Z3fOPPS He really makes an effort to use realistic attack methods. I think he still goes a bit far in drawing super-accurate lines on the plot, but it's really up to you how you choose to play.

[derstosstrupp]

You are spot on! Not to mention that as long as the gyro angle is low, say within 30° of your bow, range hardly matters to the computation of lead angle. It’s only when the gyro angle gets large, especially at close range, that accurate range input into the TDC makes a big difference, due to parallax. Hence why it is always best to minimize the gyro angle to the extent possible, to eliminate one potential source of error. Then you can get away with ballparking it, as was typical in real life, estimating the length of the target and gauging range by how much it filled the optics when close to a 90 AOB. Lots of mentions of this in KTBs.

I always recommend people play with the TDC to see these impacts. Move the bearing so that the gyro angle is low, and then turn the range knob through its entire throw and watch the gyro angle - it will hardly change. Now do the same thing, except move the bearing so that the gyro angle is very large. When you turn the range knob, the gyro angle now changes significantly.

[Aktungbby]

kaleidemiller!:Kaleun_Salute:

[bstanko6]

This game is absolutely great for trial and error. Try out some weird angle shots and see what happens. Keep trying and learning!

[John Pancoast]

In terms of plotting a very good in between is the Assisted Plotting Mod.
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1328
But don't get caught up too much in the pursuit of "realism". It's just a video game and there are many glaring errors and omissions still in it.

[kaleidemiller]

Thank you all so much for the warm welcome vis-a-vis these great responses -- very helpful, and confirming of my suspicions.

I have indeed been watching the excellent Tonci87 videos on YT. In fact, I would attribute my small successes thus far almost entirely to both him and to Wolfpack345, whose videos are also excellent, if somewhat less "realistic" given his greater use of the in-game navigation map. My attacks to date have been more like Wolfpack's -- more dependent on information derived from the map. He often uses the U-Jagd as well, which I don't believe is available in the OneAlex mod that I'm using?

To clarify somewhat, I'm not really striving for "absolute realism" in what is, after all, a "computer game." I guess I'm more curious about how _you_ approach the game, and how _you_ strike a balance between realism and fun. And, of course, I'm also trying to understand what truly was realistic (being a newcomer to this aspect of WW2-era combat), so that I can make informed decisions on how to approach the game myself.

Anyway, thanks again!

I've enjoyed my time thus far with the Type II, but, I'll admit, I'm looking forward to a Type VII upgrade. :p

[kaleidemiller]

kaleidemiller!:Kaleun_Salute:

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Hooston]

I'm told by others on this forum that the Ujagd was not a uboat thing. It seems to be disappearing from recent supermods. However the basic technique of timing the target past a fixed point to get speed is valid. You really need to be more or less stationary or, at a pinch, moving directly towards the target to get a good answer.
To do the calculation you can either use one of the tools provided by various mods or simply double the target length in metres and divide by the time to pass a fixed point in seconds. This gives speed in knots since 1 knot=0.52m/s. When sober I can do the division to the nearest knot in my head.:yeah:
Of course in real life it was unlikely you would know the target length as there were too many different ship types.:hmmm:

[John Pancoast]

I'm told by others on this forum that the Ujagd was not a uboat thing. It seems to be disappearing from recent supermods. However the basic technique of timing the target past a fixed point to get speed is valid. You really need to be more or less stationary or, at a pinch, moving directly towards the target to get a good answer.
To do the calculation you can either use one of the tools provided by various mods or simply double the target length in metres and divide by the time to pass a fixed point in seconds. This gives speed in knots since 1 knot=0.52m/s. When sober I can do the division to the nearest knot in my head.:yeah:
Of course in real life it was unlikely you would know the target length as there were too many different ship types.:hmmm:

Iirc, the "going to stationary and timing the target" was not a historical method used, more of a game method.

But I can't recall exactly. Anyone else?

[Hooston]

The "stabilized azimuth line" on the periscope was indeed used for speed estimation.


http://www.tvre.org/en/stabilized-azimuth-line


Of course SH3 doesn't have this, but as the boat keeps an unrealistic very steady course the basic periscope markings can do the job provided you don't move the periscope and steer straight.


The site linked above gives you a lot more information than you would ever want about historical procedures! Someone put a LOT of effort in!

[Kal_Maximus_U669]

The "stabilized azimuth line" on the periscope was indeed used for speed estimation.


http://www.tvre.org/en/stabilized-azimuth-line


Of course SH3 doesn't have this, but as the boat keeps an unrealistic very steady course the basic periscope markings can do the job provided you don't move the periscope and steer straight.


The site linked above gives you a lot more information than you would ever want about historical procedures! Someone put a LOT of effort in!

Play in full realism in Fifi's NYGM in bad weather, let's talk again..!!
of course it remains a game... but in this mod the feeling is very well conveyed...:D
Negative buoyant..No Ujag.. No point.. no map attack.. no update cible... in Mod 4.4 NYGM Enhanced Hardcore « Steel Coffins edition »
Thank" s for documentation it' s interessant

[John Pancoast]

The "stabilized azimuth line" on the periscope was indeed used for speed estimation.


http://www.tvre.org/en/stabilized-azimuth-line


Of course SH3 doesn't have this, but as the boat keeps an unrealistic very steady course the basic periscope markings can do the job provided you don't move the periscope and steer straight.


The site linked above gives you a lot more information than you would ever want about historical procedures! Someone put a LOT of effort in!

I'm not talking about the stablized line as much as the stopping of the boat. Whether that was actually used in combat operations vs. pre-war sops. But I could just as easily be thinking of something else altogether.

And yes, I've had that site bookmarked for many years.

[derstosstrupp]

Stopping the boat underwater in real life near the enemy at periscope depth is a recipe for disaster. A U-boat needed momentum for effective depthkeeping. The exception is the trick of “hanging the boat by the scope”, which was more of a parlor trick, if anything, and possible only in very calm seas. Certainly not something to risk near the enemy.

Correct on U-Jagd. “U-Jagd” means ASW in German. This watch was for timing closure rates for attacking a submerged sub with depth charges. I happened on the MDv for U-Jäger vessels a couple years ago and the watch’s use is fairly well described there.

[derstosstrupp]

The method of timing a target across the line is absolutely historically accurate. The “stabilized line” feature disappeared on the Standsehrohr wartime attack scopes (big column with seat and pedals), although there is some evidence it may have been retained in some form, as the “Skizzenbuch Band E” sketch for the gyrocompass system shows a socket connection for a stabilized line even during the war. More study required there.

Commanders were provided with MDv 416, which included among many others the following table for estimating speed by this method.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1301&pictureid=13309

[kyle9154]

Stopping the boat underwater in real life near the enemy at periscope depth is a recipe for disaster. A U-boat needed momentum for effective depthkeeping. The exception is the trick of “hanging the boat by the scope”, which was more of a parlor trick, if anything, and possible only in very calm seas. Certainly not something to risk near the enemy.

Correct on U-Jagd. “U-Jagd” means ASW in German. This watch was for timing closure rates for attacking a submerged sub with depth charges. I happened on the MDv for U-Jäger vessels a couple years ago and the watch’s use is fairly well described there.

And that's exactly why it was removed from the Onealex mod, yes it was historical ww2 device but only used on German ASW vessels against British and Russian subs.

[Kal_Maximus_U669]

The method of timing a target across the line is absolutely historically accurate. The “stabilized line” feature disappeared on the Standsehrohr wartime attack scopes (big column with seat and pedals), although there is some evidence it may have been retained in some form, as the “Skizzenbuch Band E” sketch for the gyrocompass system shows a socket connection for a stabilized line even during the war. More study required there.

Commanders were provided with MDv 416, which included among many others the following table for estimating speed by this method.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1301&pictureid=13309

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

[John Pancoast]

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

:) Oh, I don't care if someone criticizes the U.S. subs. But I stand behind my statement that the German subs were obsolete by the time the war started/soon after, and technologically inferior.

They would have made a good WW1 boat. But not so much a WW2 one.

[Kal_Maximus_U669]

:) Oh, I don't care if someone criticizes the U.S. subs. But I stand behind my statement that the German subs were obsolete by the time the war started/soon after, and technologically inferior.

They would have made a good WW1 boat. But not so much a WW2 one.
Hey John mes meilleurs salutations :salute:
yes the credits for the realization of the projects arrived much too late..Donitz has complained enough..
to say that they are technologically outdated... you are going a little quickly "to do the job"... but then... who is the best?.? I think I know your answer.... but I am listening to you..
I won't offend you again my dear John...I promise...:oops:
Amicalement

[John Pancoast]

Hey John mes meilleurs salutations :salute:
yes the credits for the realization of the projects arrived much too late..Donitz has complained enough..
when to say that technologically outdated...you are going a little quickly with the work...but then in your eyes who and the best?.? I think I already know your answer but I am listening..
Je ne vous offenserez plus mon chère John ....c est promis...:oops:
Amicalement

Don't worry, I'm not offended in the least.

[Zosimus]

I would say that it depends entirely on how you hunt and what you're up against. If it's a single ship that is closing, it's pretty easy to get into position and just eyeball it. If it's constant distance, it's pretty easy to use a three- or four-bearing method to figure out how to intercept it.

If it's a single ship moving away, just fall into its path and you will know the course. From there, you can just go out and around to sink it.

In terms of finding the speed, this is easy. Let's assume the ship is going 30º and you don't know the speed, but you think it may be 8 knots. If so, you should lead the ship by 14º — that is to say that you should try to turn perpendicular to its course when a straight line from the ship to your vessel is 44 degrees. Another way to say that is that the ship should be 224º in your periscope as you approach submerged. If it's moving 8 knots, then it will stay exactly at 244º so if it slowly falls back to 240º then it's only going 7 knots whereas if it moves ahead to 248º then you know it's going 9 knots or faster.

You can work out these numbers easily just by using the drawing tool. For example, draw a straight line at 70º and a perpendicular line that intersects at 90º (160º). Measure back 7 knots from the intersection to represent the ship's speed in knots and then use the compass to draw a 2 knot circle. You will find that measuring from the back location to the right portion of the circle will yield an angle of 86º so if you are at exactly 86º off of the ship and you go 2 knots perpendicular, you will be on a collision course. It will be a simple matter to just slow to 1 knot or reverse a bit before firing to get at about 400-500m, which I consider the perfect range.

If it's a convoy, you can pretty easily eyeball the general direction of the convoy and get in front. As you penetrate the screens, you should easily be able to zoom in on the map and draw a line through the ships to find their exact course. If that feels like cheating to you, simply watch them through the periscope as you pass the first lane in. If you are going, let's say, true north 0º and the ships line up perfectly at bearing 275º then you know their true course is 85º and you can adjust your course to 355º to be perfectly perpendicular.

You don't need to worry about range if you're perpendicular. And you can fire at ships in front and behind you simultaneously.

[derstosstrupp]

Hey derstosstrupp good evening..
I looked for MDv 416, it is indeed the manual given to the commander of Uboat MDv number 416..would you be kind enough to provide more links on it...... strange I can't find much...
I agree... in terms of the boat, it is impossible to stabilize it perfectly still... the attack and always in motion... the design of the building. ..physical laws required..besides the Germans are pioneers of the genre...a fantastic engineering...just look at the anatomical structure of the type 7 hull...far exceeds what is done in the genre of the time (a shark made for hunting)... all this without counting the evolution throughout the conflict... besides the enemies are eager to steal all this knowledge... especially on types 21... the rest of the story we know it...I criticized the American submarines John Pancoast did not appreciate it...lol...hihi
My best regards, I greatly appreciate your work as well as your YT channel...
sincerely Kal Maximus U669

Thanks Karl Maximus! Here is MDv 416T where that is from:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iwjVWAp6mAc_LZg0SgPF6tauwKvVDmF3/view?usp=drivesdk

[Kal_Maximus_U669]

Thanks Karl Maximus! Here is MDv 416T where that is from:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iwjVWAp6mAc_LZg0SgPF6tauwKvVDmF3/view?usp=drivesdk

:yeah::yeah: many thanks derstosstrupp
Wow ..great incredible...reading in perspective...excelent
My sincere greetings Kal Maximus U669

[Kal_Maximus_U669]

I would say that it depends entirely on how you hunt and what you're up against. If it's a single ship that is closing, it's pretty easy to get into position and just eyeball it. If it's constant distance, it's pretty easy to use a three- or four-bearing method to figure out how to intercept it.

If it's a single ship moving away, just fall into its path and you will know the course. From there, you can just go out and around to sink it.

In terms of finding the speed, this is easy. Let's assume the ship is going 30º and you don't know the speed, but you think it may be 8 knots. If so, you should lead the ship by 14º — that is to say that you should try to turn perpendicular to its course when a straight line from the ship to your vessel is 44 degrees. Another way to say that is that the ship should be 224º in your periscope as you approach submerged. If it's moving 8 knots, then it will stay exactly at 244º so if it slowly falls back to 240º then it's only going 7 knots whereas if it moves ahead to 248º then you know it's going 9 knots or faster.

You can work out these numbers easily just by using the drawing tool. For example, draw a straight line at 70º and a perpendicular line that intersects at 90º (160º). Measure back 7 knots from the intersection to represent the ship's speed in knots and then use the compass to draw a 2 knot circle. You will find that measuring from the back location to the right portion of the circle will yield an angle of 86º so if you are at exactly 86º off of the ship and you go 2 knots perpendicular, you will be on a collision course. It will be a simple matter to just slow to 1 knot or reverse a bit before firing to get at about 400-500m, which I consider the perfect range.

If it's a convoy, you can pretty easily eyeball the general direction of the convoy and get in front. As you penetrate the screens, you should easily be able to zoom in on the map and draw a line through the ships to find their exact course. If that feels like cheating to you, simply watch them through the periscope as you pass the first lane in. If you are going, let's say, true north 0º and the ships line up perfectly at bearing 275º then you know their true course is 85º and you can adjust your course to 355º to be perfectly perpendicular.

You don't need to worry about range if you're perpendicular. And you can fire at ships in front and behind you simultaneously.

The techniques seem interesting and worth trying... But there are a lot of approximations... in the real world it is not reliable enough... try in games... thank you for your demonstration..
Kind regards, Kal Maximus U669:salute: