Titanic firm submersible missing.

[Jimbuna]

A submersible that takes tourists to the Titanic shipwreck has gone missing off the North American coast in the Atlantic.

The operator, OceanGate, says it's exploring and mobilising "all options to bring the crew back safely"

The Boston Coastguard tells the BBC a search operation for the submersible is under way.

It is not known how many people are on board - or precisely where the vessel is.

Small submersibles occasionally take paying tourists to visit the wreck of the Titanic.

The wreck sits around 3,800m (12,500ft) below sea level at the bottom of the ocean.

It is located around 600km (370 miles) off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.

[em2nought]

MEG! :gulp:

[Moonlight]

That was a dangerous and expensive way to go, the thrill seekers now know it was a stupid idea to go down there in the first place, could they still be alive?, I highly doubt it, fools and there money come to mind.

[Commander Wallace]

I have added links to the news story.


https://time.com/6288253/titanic-tourist-missing/


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submarine-missing-rescue-mission-underway-newfoundland-canada/

[Moonlight]

^Thankyou, I hope they can throw a lot more information on it, you never know do you, they could be still alive but, at that depth...........

[em2nought]

^Thankyou, I hope they can throw a lot more information on it, you never know do you, they could be still alive but, at that depth...........

Just have to lure him to the surface, and then get him to chase you into shallow water.
https://tilt.goombastomp.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/MV5BYmUzOGY1MWEtN2RjOC00MzBjLWFmN2UtMDcyYWIyZDhmOT U5XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTE4MDg3NTIz._V1_-1536x646.jpg

[Commander Wallace]

^Thankyou, I hope they can throw a lot more information on it, you never know do you, they could be still alive but, at that depth...........

I feel much the same way as you do but we have to at least try to recover them, hopefully alive. Because of advances in technology, it's often easy to disregard the dangers involved in endeavors like this or become complacent.

Like everyone else, I'm hopeful for a good outcome.

[Skybird]

A reminder of that some certain things are neither routine, nor ever fail safe.

[Platapus]

I did not know there was such a thing.


Sad to hear, but going on a thrill vacation has its risks and sometimes it does not work out . :(

[Aktungbby]

to recover them, hopefully alive.

"Hopefully alive" is redundant!:03: But damn! that was on my 'bucket list' since my physician says I can't chance the "zone of death"(only $50,000 to $160,000) on Everest given my age and condition...at $250,000 per 6 passengers; ie: a $1,500,000 'payload; I wonder if the ticket-price will be refunded??!!'https://oceangate.com/images/titan/titan-dive-bks.jpg:k_confused:

[Commander Wallace]

"Hopefully alive" is redundant! :k_confused:
Not very true. Recovery and rescue can easily be differentiated by being alive or deceased. Even if deceased, one would hope they would be recovered. When I referenced the term, " hopefully alive ", that means hoping for the best possible outcome.

Does that not make sense ?

[Jimbuna]

Not very true. Recovery and rescue can easily be differentiated by being alive or deceased. Even if deceased, one would hope they would be recovered. When I referenced the term, " hopefully alive ", that means hoping for the best possible outcome.

Does that not make sense ?

Aye :yep:

[em2nought]

C.S.S. Hunley was recovered how many times? I wonder if they tinkered with it between sinkings, or did they just keep sending it back out there over and over with no improvements instead trusting in a lucky coin in your pocket? :hmmm:

[August]

I wonder if the ticket-price will be refunded??!!'


Definitely, just like if your parachute fails the Army will give you a new one in exchange. :)

[mapuc]

May be it lay on the bottom due to engine failure and com. problems.

If so then it's matter of time before oxygen runs out.

Could also be that the submersible have imploded.

All this is pure speculations

I hope they will find them alive or dead.

Markus

[Catfish]

Not very true. Recovery and rescue can easily be differentiated by being alive or deceased. Even if deceased, one would hope they would be recovered. When I referenced the term, " hopefully alive ", that means hoping for the best possible outcome. [...]
That.

I do not get how there is no backup/rescue vehicle at all? Ok sure the people going down to watch signed some paperwork listing all the risks, but.. can't mankind do better?

[Aktungbby]

"Hopefully alive" is redundant!:03:

Not very true.

Does that not make sense ? ...your quote of my quote is not with the humor:03: icon! not :k_confused: Of course you ment hopefully alive! You don't have to say it as we know you're stalwart, caring, upright fellow.:arrgh!: My main concern though is the dinero wasted...and I've dived on some wrecks in my SCUBA daze and rescued a few divers in distress(hypothermia or out of air at depth issues) to boot; generally a 4-man task with a S.L.A.M.-trained diver directing the effort, often with novice divers. :hmmm:

[mapuc]

The vessel operates by pinging back a message every 15 minutes to signal to those ashore that it is safe, however Sky News understands that those pings have not been heard for more than seven hours.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-billionaire-hamish-harding-on-board-missing-titanic-submersible-family-confirms-12905616

Markus

[Rockstar]

It’s seems to me they were looking to build it on the cheap I’m interested to know what the “groundbreaking’ whiz bang bleeding edge INNOVATIVE tech they were using. And I assume if the RTM worked they most likely already know exactly what happened. They make it sound as though if something goes wrong with the hull there would be some kind of warning. Unfortunately, at those depths' implosion is pretty much instantaneous.


Titan

5-Person Submersible | 4,000 Meters

https://www.oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html



Titan is a Cyclops-class manned submersible designed to take five people to depths of 4,000 meters (13,123 feet) for site survey and inspection, research and data collection, film and media production, and deep sea testing of hardware and software. Through the innovative use of modern materials, Titan is lighter in weight and more cost efficient to mobilize than any other deep diving submersible. A combination of ground-breaking engineering and off-the-shelf technology gives Titan a unique advantage over other deep diving subs; the proprietary Real Time Hull Health Monitoring (RTM) systems provides an unparalleled safety feature that assesses the integrity of the hull throughout every dive. The use off-the-shelf components helped to streamline the construction, and makes it simple to operate and replace parts in the field.

Paired with a patented, integrated launch and recovery platform, Titan is easy to operate in varying sea states using a local appropriately sized ship for the project. In coastal waters this means we do not need a large support ship with a crane or A-frame.


Real-Time Health Monitoring

The most significant innovation is the proprietary real-time hull health monitoring (RTM) system. Titan is the only manned submersible to employ an integrated real-time health monitoring system. Utilizing co-located acoustic sensors and strain gauges throughout the pressure boundary, the RTM system makes it possible to analyze the effects of changing pressure on the vessel as the submersible dives deeper, and accurately assess the integrity of the structure. This onboard health analysis monitoring system provides early warning detection for the pilot with enough time to arrest the descent and safely return to surface.

Development and Innovation

Project Cyclops

Project Cyclops was born out of OceanGate’s appreciation for the complexity of subsea environments and the need for a diverse set of tools and technology to address operational requirements below 500 meters. Through strategic partnerships, OceanGate applies the latest advances in material science and technology to meet the challenges faced in deep sea exploration. With the majority of the ocean's seabed still unexplored, and as commercial and scientific entities continue to expand initiatives to access potential resources, OceanGate satisfies the demand for a practical subsea vessels capable of efficiently accessing these resources.

[Commander Wallace]

[/COLOR]

Of course you ment hopefully alive! You don't have to say it as we know you're stalwart, caring, upright fellow.:arrgh!: My main concern though is the dinero wasted...and I've dived on some wrecks in my SCUBA daze and rescued a few divers in distress(hypothermia or out of air at depth issues) to boot; generally a 4-man task with a S.L.A.M.-trained diver directing the effort, often with novice divers. :hmmm:

Your description of being stalwart, caring and upfront is appreciated. To be honest, that describes just about everyone here at Subsim I have been privileged to get to know. There is an awesome and rather large core group here like that in Subsim.

I don't have the background in scuba diving that you and perhaps others have.. It hardly matters as at with the depths involved, scuba diving would be of no help, If the submersible is deep. I would assume it is or it would have been detected and localized by now. I also don't know if the missing submersible has a collar to mate with a deep sea rescue vehicles utilized by the U.S Navy. Perhaps others here know about that.

One thing is known, time is not on the side of any rescue attempts.

[Rockstar]

Your description of being stalwart, caring and upfront is appreciated. To be honest, that describes just about everyone here at Subsim I have been privileged to get to know. There is an awesome and rather large core group here like that in Subsim.

I don't have the background in scuba diving that you and perhaps others have.. It hardly matters as at with the depths involved, scuba diving would be of no help, If the submersible is deep. I would assume it is or it would have been detected and localized by now. I also don't know if the missing submersible has a collar to mate with a deep sea rescue vehicles utilized by the U.S Navy. Perhaps others here know about that.

One thing is known, time is not on the side of any rescue attempts.


There is no mating collar.

[Commander Wallace]

There is no mating collar.

Thanks for the information. I thought having a mating collar for a privately held submersible would be cost prohibitive but I was hoping i was wrong.

[nikimcbee]

Let's see, the last time we lost a private sub....
Anybody check to see if Mr. Madsen is in his cell?
Any journalists onboard?


Anybody seen Neal lately? He wasn't out and about was he?:ping:

[Jimbuna]

* A British billionaire is among five people on board a submersible tourist vessel which went missing during a voyage to the Titanic shipwreck

* The five-person OceanGate Expeditions vessel was reported overdue on Sunday evening about 435 miles south of St John’s, Newfoundland

* The U.S. Coast Guard said there was one pilot and four passengers on board and that the vessel had the capacity to be submerged for 96 hours

* British explorer Hamish Harding is among the passengers

* According to Sky News, French submersible pilot, Paul-Henry Nargeolet, and chief executive of OceanGate Expeditions, Stockton Rush, were also on board

* Pakistani businessman Shahzada Dawood and his son, Suleman, are the other passengers

* US and Canadian ships and planes have swarmed the area about 900 miles east of Cape Cod,

* OceanGate Expeditions said: "We are deeply thankful for the extensive assistance we have received from several government agencies."

[Skybird]

A US reporter who dived in the Titan in the past said the vehicle looked very improvised.

I saw a picture of the interior. A narrow metal tube with no windows in the side walls and a single, small view port in the front. For five people to kneel and crouch in the cramped vehicle for at least 8 hours. "Men staring at steel walls." I wonder how one gets such an idea to get involved in something like that as a "leisure activity". But well, tastes are different. Mine it is not.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ1h_3Ww3M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue_KnlonCGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR8AAmGR_9Q

[Skybird]

https://i.postimg.cc/pTckw7ZB/Unbenannt.png (https://postimages.org/)

CBS journalist David Pogue was invited to travel on OceanGate's Titan submersible on a press trip last year, to reach the wreckage of the Titanic.
He told the BBC that passengers were sealed inside the main capsule by several bolts that were applied from the outside and had to be removed by an external crew.
He said he initially thought the sub seemed improvised: "You steer this sub with an Xbox game controller, some of the ballast is abandoned construction pipes."
If the sub became trapped or sprung a leak "there's no backup, there's no escape pod", he said.
[BBC]

------------

No chance I would have gone aboard that.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hate to day it, the submarine appears to be made of scraps with some new parts thrown in. There was no means for surfacing in case of an emergency. In short, this was a coffin in the making.

[Rockstar]

There is no rescue. Titan ‘was’ a 5 inch thick carbon fiber tube the crew enters then an end cap with the window is bolted on with 17 bolts locking the crew inside. It takes around 90 minutes to get to the Titanic wreck, Titan was an hour and 35 minutes into the dive when communication was lost. At that depth all it takes is one over threaded bolt and <POOF> it’s gone in less time it takes to blink your eye.

Compare it to James Cameron’s Deepsea Callenger and Titan looks like someone’s backyard project put together with bubblegum and baling wire.

Btw, a U.S. Navy rescue sub is limited to 2,000 ft depth.

[Skybird]

"X Box Game Controller."


There is a reason why even a simple flip switch or a simple to-press-button for airliner cockpits cost several hundred dollars per piece.


And back in the late 90s when I had a PS1, one controller for it once stopped working in my hands while playing. Just so, out of the blue. Never came online again.



The whole concept for that "submarine" sounds incredibly irresponsible. German newspaper said that passengers must sign statements that they understand that the boat is unlicensed, has not undergone any technical inspection, and that the operator cannot be held responsible for any damage to passengers, injuries, psychological traumata and stress consequences.


Who wants to dive in such a thing - and even pays for it...?

[AVGWarhawk]

"X Box Game Controller."


There is a reason why even a simple flip switch or a simple to-press-button for airliner cockpits cost several hundred dollars per piece.


And back in the late 90s when I had a PS1, one controller for it once stopped working in my hands while playing. Just so, out of the blue. Never came online again.



The whole concept for that "submarine" sounds incredibly irresponsible. German newspaper said that passengers must sign statements that they understand that the boat is unlicensed, has not undergone any technical inspection, and that the operator cannot be held responsible for any damage to passengers, injuries, psychological traumata and stress consequences.


Who wants to dive in such a thing - and even pays for it...?

It is incredibly irresponsible! These people signed their own death sentence. Such a shame.

[mapuc]

Even though the sub should have been sending signal to it's mothership on the surface.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1782482/inside-titanic-sub-missing-video-spt Speaking of his experience, Mr Pogue said: “It's about the size of a minivan… There's a rudimentary toilet, which amounts to little more than a couple of ziplock bags. And of course, they all brought snacks.”

He said a lot of the interior of the vessel would “sound very janky to a lot of people — a lot of this submersible was made from off-the-shelf improvised parts.”

He went on: “For example, you control it with an XBox Game Controller. Some of the ballast are these abandoned lead pipes from construction sites and the way you ditch them is everybody gets to one side of the sub, and they roll off a shelf.” :doh:

However, he added: “The guy who built the sub told me yeah, that stuff's all kind of janky but the important thing, like the capsule that contains the people in the air, that was co-designed with NASA and the University of Washington. The part that keeps you alive is rock solid. ”:hmmm: https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Titan-submersible-4813687.webp?r=1687267325373 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1782459/worst-case-scenario-titanic-sub-expert https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Titan-4813621.webp?r=1687246884485Another scenario is a leak in the pressure hull, in which case the prognosis is not good, he said.

He explained: “If it has gone down to the seabed and can’t get back up under its own power, options are very limited.

“While the submersible might still be intact, if it is beyond the continental shelf, there are very few vessels that can get that deep, and certainly not divers.”

Even if they could go that deep, he doubted they could attach to the hatch of OceanGate's submersible, which is made of titanium and filament wound carbon fibre, and which weights 20,000lbs when out of the water. Just the ziplock bag toilethttps://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/0_zw7g9XxOCR3UpE04CtAA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7Y2Y9d2VicA--/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2023-06/6f579d70-0f4f-11ee-aff3-4f46366c2893 :nope:with curtain would have precluded my indulgance; along with eight hours spent on these old knees...:hmmm: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/06/20/16/72329103-12213437-image-a-85_1687274139921.jpgThen again, nuthing "cutting-edge" for it's time goes outta style...ie: CSA Hunley 1864> https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SjBPOUz7fcQ/UR8gy06WNWI/AAAAAAAAL5s/Ajoff3ddDcE/s1600/HL+Hunley+5__OTIS.jpg

[ET2SN]

I was holding off until more info came out.
I know they used it on at least one previous dive.
Never mind the XBox controller part, the key (IMO) was what kind of turn-around maint. they did between dives? :k_confused:

Were the seals replaced and valves tested, etc?
Or, was this just another "Dip-a-dope" racket? :arrgh!:

[Bera]

Does this death machine have ballast tanks? How does depth control work?

[Rockstar]

Does this death machine have ballast tanks? How does depth control work?

According to a journalist's inquiry into its operation. "Some of the ballast are these abandoned lead pipes from construction sites and the way you ditch them is everybody gets to one side of the sub, and they roll off a shelf.”


A lot of good that system would do if you're stuck in the mud. :hmmm:

[Bera]

According to a journalist's inquiry into its operation. "Some of the ballast are these abandoned lead pipes from construction sites and the way you ditch them is everybody gets to one side of the sub, and they roll off a shelf.”


A lot of good that system would do if you're stuck in the mud. :hmmm:


Is this a joke or are you serious?

[AVGWarhawk]

Is this a joke or are you serious?

Judging by the other materials and less than stellar hardware used to create this sarcophagus it would not surprise me.

[Bera]

Is this a joke or are you serious?


No, he´s not joking:


https://www.insider.com/people-missing-submersible-deadbolt-screws-airtight-coast-guard-2023-6


However, since it is a very simple method to get it afloat, makes me think that the submarine somehow imploded before they could ever do something to resurface.

[ET2SN]

Don't fixate on the simple design. :03:

With deep submergence, you want a very simple design to minimize cascade failures.

You also want a very experienced crew for when things go wrong. :o

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217

I dont get it. Not certificated because it is experimental (=in development) and they do not want authorities to hinder the speed of progress - but nevetheless taking passengers...?

And look at that diagram of the inside. No windows, just in front for the pilot a little lookout. Yes, I know deep diving submerisbale are built like this, only small outlooks. But why does anyone not beign scientist or technician havign a professional need for the trip want to book a ride in this thing? I dont get it, but okay...

If it was able to get back to the surface, it may still be mostyl submersed, hovering in and under the ocean surface with only a tiny bit sticking out of the water, so it will still be difficult to find, but then there is at least a chance that their lives can be saved.

But if it is on the ground, I hope for all onboard that they are already dead, else there is nightmare ahead of them. And obviously nobody has a clue how to get the boat up from 4000. No chance, it seems.

Also, it wanted to visit the Titanic, so likely has started the decent in the close vicinity of the wreck. So if the sub sank, it must have landed on or near the Titanic, most likely - making not a single sonar operator in the world happy.

[mapuc]

Whether they are alive or dead, most likely dead by now, the sub must be found. There are submersible who can dive deeper than 4000 meters and I hope one of few of these is on its way.

If the sub has imploded then I wonder how much there's left of it.

Markus

[Skybird]

I am confused a bit, I saw photographs of the submersible, but they show two different kinds of fronts, one is a metal bubble with a tiny glass bowl, the other has replaced the former metal bubble completely with glass, giving much more visibility for the crew. What is the case now? Big or small "window"?

[ET2SN]

If the sub has imploded then I wonder how much there's left of it.

Markus

Its all there, just in very small pieces. :yep: :doh:

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel has an interview with a German business man who was in that sub two years ago. The interview is behind a paywall and from there cannot be copied into a translator, sorry.

The man says this: he paid 110,000 Euros, and if the trip down would be impossible due to the weather being too bad, you do not get your money back. He now calls his trip a "Himmelfahrtskommando", the submersible was in a not good shape, as I understand, and when the mothership deboarded the sub and it was in the water, ballast weights became loose and had to be fixed again, which took 1,5 hours (with the crew locked inside already. The three Americans he was with, looked at the sub and said all three "We do not dive with that thing." (Bravo!!) And they didn'T, and their money was gone but they stayed outside, safe. The descent down to the Titanic was in darkness, since lights were switched off to save power. The batteries caused problems notoriously, he said, having prevented many trips by other suicide candidates tourists. . Just the day before his own trip, a dive was cancelled because there were technical problems. He further said that the situation on board must be a nightmare, because al space is so tight, the darkness, the cold (the smell, I would add).

Rockstar called it a diving coffin. And thats what it is. Why do people actually go aboard such a thing? I dont get it.

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/titan-tauchgang-zum-wrack-der-titanic-beim-gedanken-an-das-u-boot-laeuft-es-mir-eiskalt-den-ruecken-runter-a-e11cfbfe-2e22-4789-9d35-c96e3b16cb13

[Rockstar]

I read in another article the pressure hull had to be completely rebuilt due to flaws in the carbon fiber back in 2020.

Missing Titanic Sub Once Faced Massive Lawsuit Over Depths It Could Safely Travel To

Court documents reveal a former OceanGate employee had several safety complaints over the tourist submersible—and then he was fired.

https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

The tourist submersible that went missing while exploring the Titanic wreck was previously the target of safety complaints from an employee of OceanGate, the parent company that owns the sub and runs tourist expeditions of the wreck. That employee complained specifically that the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.

That’s according to legal documents obtained by The New Republic. According to the court documents, in a 2018 case, OceanGate employee David Lochridge, a submersible pilot, voiced concerns about the safety of the sub. According to a press release, Lochridge was director of marine operations at the time, “responsible for the safety of all crew and clients.”

The concerns Lochridge voiced came to light as part of a breach of contract case related to Lochridge refusing to greenlight manned tests of the early models of the submersible over safety concerns. Lochridge was fired, and then OceanGate sued him for disclosing confidential information about the Titan submersible. In response, Lochridge filed a compulsory counterclaim where he alleged wrongful termination over being a whistleblower about the quality and safety of the submersible.

Lochridge, in his counterclaim, alleged that “rather than addressing Lochridge’s concerns, OceanGate instead summarily terminated Lochridge’s employment in efforts to silence Lochridge and to avoid addressing the safety and quality control issues.”

The counterclaim said that:

Given the prevalent flaws in the previously tested 1/3 scale model, and the visible flaws in the carbon end samples for the Titan, Lochridge again stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths. The constant pressure cycling weakens existing flaws resulting in large tears of the carbon. Non-destructive testing was critical to detect such potentially existing flaws in order to ensure a solid and safe product for the safety of the passengers and crew.

The counterclaim also details a meeting at OceanGate’s Everett, Washington, facility with engineering staff where “several individuals had expressed concerns over to the Engineering Director.” The OceanGate CEO, Stockton Rush, asked Lochridge to conduct a quality inspection of the Titan. Per the complaint:

Over the course of the next several days, Lochridge worked on his report and requested paperwork from the Engineering Director regarding the viewport design and pressure test results of the viewport for the Titan, along with other key information. Lochridge was met with hostility and denial of access to the necessary documentation that should have been freely available as part of his inspection process.

Lochridge initially verbally expressed concerns about the safety and quality of the Titan submersible to OceanGate executive management, but those concerns were ignored. Lochridge “identified numerous issues that posed serious safety concerns, and offered corrective action and recommendations for each.” Lochridge was particularly concerned about “non-destructive testing performed on the hull of the Titan” but he was “repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull.” He was also told there was no such equipment that could conduct a test like that.

After Lochridge issued his inspection report, OceanGate officials convened a meeting on January 19, 2018, with the CEO, human resources director, engineering director, Lochridge, and the operations director. Per the complaint:

At the meeting Lochridge discovered why he had been denied access to the viewport information from the Engineering department—the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. Lochridge learned that the viewport manufacturer would only certify to a depth of 1,300 meters due to experimental design of the viewport supplied by OceanGate, which was out of the Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (“PVHO”) standards. OceanGate refused to pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport that would meet the required depth of 4,000 meters.

For reference, the Titanic is estimated to sit on the ocean floor at a depth of nearly 13,000 feet.

Paying passengers wouldn’t know or be informed about Lochridge’s concerns, according to his complaints. They also wouldn’t be informed “that hazardous flammable materials were being used within the submersible.” Lochridge expressed concerns about the Titan again. But OceanGate didn’t address those concerns, and Lockridge was fired.

The case between Lochridge and OceanGate didn’t advance much further, and a few months later the two parties settled.

As of Tuesday, the Coast Guard said that 10,000 square miles have been searched since the Titan submersible went missing Sunday afternoon. Five people are said to be on board, and the submarine had the capability to be underwater for about 96 hours, according to The Guardian.

[Skybird]

Sounds as if I must not shed a tear for the company founder and CEO being aboard, too.

[Rockstar]

The whole game-controller, rv parts was a bit of a giveaway the bottom dollar was the main concern. Makes you wonder if similar shenanigans are going on behind the scenes in the space tourism industry?

Shortcuts that work... sort of. Most of the time.
Until one day they suddenly don't.

[Skybird]

Yes, i had the space tourism thing on my mind in the past days, too.



I just dont trust it.

[ET2SN]

Just FYI, but the only way I get on board a tourist sub is if I'm already passed out.

:Kaleun_Sleep:


"Mind over matter" just met the Atlantic.
And lost. :timeout:

[Rockstar]

First round is on me, let’s go I’ll carry you aboard.


In other news, a linked nastygram sent to Oceangate from the Marine Technology Society.

In a letter to Mr Rush unearthed by the New York Times, the Marine Technology Society said the company was making "misleading" claims about its design exceeding established industry safety standards.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/marine-technology-society-committee-2018-letter-to-ocean-gate/eddb63615a7b3764/full.pdf

[Exocet25fr]

Search relocated after noises heard

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65969476

[Jimbuna]

Fingers, eyes, arms, legs and everything else for a successful outcome.

[Skybird]

The knocking sound could be just anything. Of course one must chekc it out, but I do not hold any expectations.

A Swiss deep submersible pilot explained that such vehicles usually are super-safe and the bigger problem with them is to make them dive than to bring them up again - the latter they usually do all by themsleves, simple laws of physics. Electric sytems and batteries should be redundant and severla systems should be indpendent from each other, so if one breaks down, the others still operate. However, there were reports that the Titan was in not a good technical state, and lacked certifications.

But there seem to be two problems now with the Titan, the loss of comms and the loss of detection, and two such techncial problems simultaneously tell him that there was an implosion, killing the crew immediately within a split second, means: it probably all is already over.

He also explains that the detection system of the mothership operating such submerisbles only works within a very small radius, forcing them to stay right above the submersibles. Since Titan wanted to go down to Titanic, in order to detect Titan there the mothership must have sit right above the Titanic. That means that after implosion the wreck had a good chance to vertically fall right on top of the Titanic, break through the corroded iron structure and come to a standstill right inside the Titanic wreck. Then it could not be detected, and any emissions from it (however unlikely that is), would be blocked by the iron hull.

I think they ill bring in those deep diving robots they used years ago to discover and film the Titanic, and then check the location and vicinity as well as the wreck.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDKoRhhAbx4

[Onkel Neal]

"X Box Game Controller."
There is a reason why even a simple flip switch or a simple to-press-button for airliner cockpits cost several hundred dollars per piece.

And back in the late 90s when I had a PS1, one controller for it once stopped working in my hands while playing. Just so, out of the blue. Never came online again.



Who wants to dive in such a thing - and even pays for it...?

Exactly. Just crazy that the builder thought it was a good thing to brag about, a off the shelf game controller that was meant as a toy.

They keep talking about locating this sub, so... what's the plan if they find it? Lower a crane hook and reel it in?

I read several times where the builder said there were 7 ways to achieved positive buoyancy and get to the surface. So, did they all fail? More likely a pressure hull or hatch failed and the crew was wiped out instantly.

Even if the sub was to managed to get to the surface but isn't located for a while, do they have any way to access fresh air? My understanding is the only access hatch is bolted tight from the outside... so even if it was discovered on the surface, someone better get there quick with a wrench.

It would be crazy if the sub was to miraculously pop up on the surface...

[Subnuts]

Well, there goes my lifelong ambition to to spend $250,000 to stare at bits and pieces of the world's most heavily studied and photographed shipwreck in a shoddily constructed and unregulated submersible with a safety factor of 0.4.

[Moonlight]

I think these Rescuers and the Media should stop clutching at straws and tell it as it is, giving their families false hopes when they're already dead is just prolonging the agony for them.
I don't know who's going to raise this issue first but it needs to be told and fast, the chance of them being rescued is a big fat Zero and this is not a rescue mission anymore as its now a recovery mission.

[Rockstar]

Fifty year old white guy submariners are not inspirational? So hire a bunch of unquestioning kids who will do what they’re told and don’t really know any better instead. It’s obvious this CEO didn’t understand the dangers involved.

https://youtu.be/jrcR9C6Y2Pw

https://i.postimg.cc/HWNNpb7g/IMG-1716.jpg

[em2nought]

Fifty year old white guy submariners are not inspirational? So hire a bunch of unquestioning kids who will do what they’re told and don’t really know any better instead. It’s obvious this CEO didn’t understand the dangers involved.

https://youtu.be/jrcR9C6Y2Pw

This is probably how the end to us all occurs. Reactor meltdowns, virus walking out of labs, planes crashing into the ocean. Old guys are the glue barely holding our society together. :D

[Rockstar]

This is probably how the end to us all occurs. Reactor meltdowns, virus walking out of labs, planes crashing into the ocean. Old guys are the glue barely holding our society together. :D

It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life for me, yeah
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life for me
Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo
And I'm feeling good :salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

Just FYI, but the only way I get on board a tourist sub is if I'm already passed out.

:Kaleun_Sleep:


"Mind over matter" just met the Atlantic.
And lost. :timeout:

The only way I would get on is if I was a barnacle.

[Skybird]

At least my confusion on the frontal window is solved. Press has mixed up photos of the Titan with that of another boat by he same company, Cyclops I.

[Jimbuna]

It's not like the press to mix things up or get them wrong.....surely! :doh:

[Aktungbby]

The only way I would get on is if I was a barnacle. https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/7152932a-2404-4e58-9d30-22d2b54fa9d0-AI2HTML_ST_SUBSEARCH2-_620px.jpgNo one who's been in a MRI machine 3 times in one year(prostate, diverticulitis, and stroke)https://media.gettyimages.com/id/56959352/photo/close-up-of-a-person-getting-an-cat-scan.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=3AIOFdGYSfa8XILjZB27zuLTjYOQmJdm1gbVuRhPLTE= would even dream of getting into this contraption!:O: but like your avater: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/ranks/luckyjack15.jpg" Lucky Jack Aubrey says: "What a fascinating modern age we live in"??!! For these depths we are looking at perfect spheres…to withstand such pressure,” he said. Any defect could cause a pressure hull implosion, which would take place in milliseconds and would be large enough to be picked up by seismometers that detect earthquakes, he said. The craft's contact was lost 1 hour and 45 minutes into its descent; no such seismograph report has been recorded; but if it's in the bottom mud on its skids, the passengers cannot shift to one side to rock the lead pipe ballast off of the 'shelving' to give the craft ascent buoyancy imho...:hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Looks like condensation forming around that viewport, to be expected, I guess. But I doubt game pads and pc's from walmart are rated for such environments. Thats what happens when gullible people jump on the latest bandwagon without thinking.

2 former OceanGate employees voiced safety concerns years ago about the hull of the now-missing vessel

Celina Tebor
By Celina Tebor, CNN
Updated 11:16 AM EDT, Wed June 21, 2023

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/titan-sub-safety-oceangate-employees/index.html

CNN
—
Two former OceanGate employees separately voiced similar safety concerns about the thickness of the now-missing Titan submersible’s hull when they were employed by the company years ago, and a statement from a research lab appears to show conflicting information about the engineering and testing that went into the development of the vessel.

David Lochridge, the company’s former director of marine operations, claimed in a court filing he was wrongfully terminated in 2018 for raising concerns about the safety and testing of the Titan, which vanished Sunday with five people on board during a trip to view the wreckage of the Titanic.

Search crews heard banging sounds while scouring the Atlantic for a manned submersible now running out of oxygen.

Details about Lochridge and another former employee’s concerns come as officials scour a swath of ocean about 900 miles east of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, racing to locate the submersible and rescue the crew inside. If the vessel is intact, they have a dwindling supply of oxygen, with perhaps less than a day of breathable air as of early Wednesday, based on a US Coast Guard officials’ estimate.

Lochridge worked as an independent contractor for OceanGate in 2015, then as an employee between 2016 and 2018, according to court filings.

The company terminated his employment and sued Lochridge and his wife in 2018, claiming he shared confidential information, misappropriated trade secrets and used the company for immigration assistance then manufactured a reason to be fired. The lawsuit noted Lochridge is not an engineer, calling him a submersible pilot and a diver.

Lochridge said in a countersuit he was tasked by Stockton Rush – OceanGate’s CEO, who is among the five onboard the Titan – to perform an inspection of the submersible.

Lochridge brought up concerns that no non-destructive testing had been performed on the Titan’s hull to check for “delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull,” the suit says. When Lochridge raised the issue, it says, he was told no equipment existed to perform such a test.

The lawsuit was settled and dismissed in November 2018. The terms of the settlement were not disclosed, and Lochridge could not be reached for comment.

Court filings from the company indicate there was additional testing after Lochridge’s time at OceanGate, and it’s unclear whether any of his concerns were addressed as the vessel was developed.

Another former OceanGate employee who worked briefly for the company during the same time period as Lochridge had similar concerns, he said, speaking to CNN on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak publicly.

The former employee became concerned when the carbon fiber hull of the Titan arrived, he said, echoing Lochridge’s concerns about its thickness and adhesion in his conversation with CNN. The hull had only been built to five inches thick, he said, telling CNN company engineers told him they had expected it to be seven inches thick.

The former employee worked at the submersible company for two and a half months in 2017; he was an operations technician who assisted with towing submersibles out into the ocean and preparing them for the diving operation.

He said more concerns were raised by contractors and employees during his time at OceanGate, and Rush became defensive and shied away from answering questions during all-staff meetings. When the former employee raised concerns directly to Rush that OceanGate could potentially be violating a US law relating to Coast Guard inspections, the CEO outright dismissed them, the former employee said, and that’s when he resigned.

CNN has reached out to OceanGate for comment.

OceanGate touted safety features of Titan in 2021 court filing

In a 2021 court filing, OceanGate’s legal representative touted the specs and a hull monitoring system built into the Titan that he called “an unparalleled safety feature.” The legal representative informed the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia – the court that oversees matters having to do with the Titanic – of the company’s expedition plans at the time.

The filing lays out the Titan’s testing details and its specifications, including that it had undergone more than 50 test dives and detailing its five-inch-thick carbon fiber and titanium hull.

The filing says OceanGate’s vessel was the result of over eight years of work, including “detailed engineering and development work under a company issued $5 million contract to the University of Washington’s Applied Physics Laboratory.”


https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230621092200-restricted-file-01-titanic-shipwreck-expedition-viewport.jpg
A file photo shows the RMS Titanic shipwreck from a viewport of an OceanGate Expeditions submersible.


But according to the University of Washington, the laboratory never dealt with design or engineering for OceanGate’s Titan vessel.

The lab’s expertise involved “only shallow water implementation,” and “the Laboratory was not involved in the design, engineering or testing of the TITAN submersible used in the RMS TITANIC expedition,” Kevin Williams, the executive director of UW’s Applied Physics Laboratory, said in a statement to CNN.

In 2022, the legal representative updated the Virginia court on OceanGate’s expeditions in another court filing.

“On the first dive to the Titanic, the submersible encountered a battery issue and had to be manually attached to its lifting platform,” the filing reads. “OceanGate decided to cancel the second mission for repairs and operational enhancements” after the vessel “sustained modest damage to its external components,” it reads.

There were not any submersible-related issues that canceled dives on the third, fourth, or fifth missions, according to the court filing.

OceanGate explains choice not to class the Titan submersible

In a 2019 blog post on OceanGate’s website, the company said most marine operations “require that chartered vessels are ‘classed’ by an independent group such as the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), DNV/GL, Lloyd’s Register, or one of the many others.”

But the Titan is not classed, the blog post says, adding that classing innovative designs often requires a multiyear approval process, which gets in the way of rapid innovation.

Classing agencies “do not ensure that operators adhere to proper operating procedures and decision-making processes – two areas that are much more important for mitigating risks at sea. The vast majority of marine (and aviation) accidents are a result of operator error, not mechanical failure,” it says.

“Classing assures ship owners, insurers, and regulators that vessels are designed, constructed and inspected to accepted standards. Classing may be effective at filtering out unsatisfactory designers and builders, but the established standards do little to weed out subpar vessel operators – because classing agencies only focus on validating the physical vessel,” it reads.

“By itself, classing is not sufficient to ensure safety,” the blog post says.

CNN’s Dakin Andone contributed to this report.

[ET2SN]

No one who's been in a MRI machine 3 times in one year(prostate, diverticulitis, and stroke)

*Ahem* :O:

My first ride in an MRI was a one hour brain scan.
Half way thru, the MRI tech starts banging on my feet and says, "Tell me you aren't falling asleep!" :timeout:

I later explain that on my first boat (Barbel) that tube would have been considered a prime bunk for E6 and above.


:Kaleun_Goofy:

Meanwhile, I usually don't agree with Aaron/SubBrief but I think he may have it right.
There's "96" hours worth of O2 in tanks, but NO WAY to scrub the atmosphere.

[em2nought]

*Ahem* :O:
but NO WAY to scrub the atmosphere.

There is a way you could drastically reduce the carbon dioxide being expelled inside. :o

[Commander Wallace]

There is a way you could drastically reduce the carbon dioxide being expelled inside. :o


I'm thinking the Co2 scrubber units would be able to keep up but not sure the units can keep up with 5 people in the submersible. I haven't seen any information on the scrubber units employed on this submersible. Aktung had mentioned the psychological effects and impact of being under water like they have been. I agree with his assessment. Nuclear Submariners do that all the time for longer periods without any Ill effects. However, the circumstances in this instance are different.

Still, many Navy people wouldn't have any part of being a Submariner.

[ET2SN]

Still, many Navy people wouldn't have any part of being a Submariner.

That's why we get paid a lot more.

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up: :D

I haven't read or heard anyone talking about Lithium Hydroxide. :hmmm:

Its cheap and also really passive. Just pour some on a tray and let it do its thing. That takes care of most of your CO problems.

[Commander Wallace]

That's why we get paid a lot more.

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up: :D

I haven't read or heard anyone talking about Lithium Hydroxide. :hmmm:

Its cheap and also really passive. Just pour some on a tray and let it do its thing. That takes care of most of your CO problems.


I failed to mention that Service people in my humble opinion are a special breed. That also includes our cousins across the pond like Germany and the U.K and their military forces, just to name a few countries and forces. Submariners are themselves a special breed among the military forces, especially in the U.S, having essentially been on a war footing during the Cold War and well after as too. This includes, perhaps especially, the " Hide with pride " gang as well. :yep:


I'm pretty sure you will agree. :yep:

[ET2SN]

I'm pretty sure you will agree. :yep:

That you're trying to suck up? Well, yeah.. :O:

Submarine duty is 95% about the Benjamin's.
For the rest, -

-NO ONE gets sea sick at 200 feet. :yeah:

-Some one has to keep foreign bars and red light districts in business. :Kaleun_Party:

- Navies will always need a place for crazy people. :rock:




:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Commander Wallace]

^ Not at all, just a healthy respect for anyone who has served in uniform. That goes double for those who have sailed and served in an underwater tube for 4-6 months at a time and rightfully earned Presidential unit Citations as USS Parche (SSN-683) and others have for meritorious service.

[mapuc]

Denmark have dismantled its Submarines and does not have any today. In the latest agreement they have decided to once again having a submarine fleet.

In Sweden there's no sailor on a sub only officers

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

There is a way you could drastically reduce the carbon dioxide being expelled inside. :o

Did they take any straws with them for the drawing?
:hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

"Mind over matter" just met the Atlantic.
And lost. :timeout: "Not just" at that particular location....??!! Rather TWICE!:k_confused: From someone (James Cameron) who's been there:https://youtu.be/FSGeskFzE0s

[Rockstar]

ti·tan
\ ˈtaɪtn̩ \
noun
: one of a family of 12 giants in Greek mythology
: an extremely large and powerful person, company, etc.


Two vessels of the same name boasting of their strength and size, sink in the same location. Spa-spa-spooky :o

[Aktungbby]

^ worse you're omitting the novelhttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbfiNry-WhqIOMxzsOHTs35aw0MR-wmU7VoPikPfldzY4CHGXCsQ60AiYQlyQGsd22b7LpkX-d7OtDQOv3sC4eUqxLzgRSJsGwP14hcR2HEHnx6baoIRJiCTV8Q N1i9ErnaVMGeOs&usqp=CAc that closely mirrored reality....that's reallyspa-spa-oookie! Then, suddenly it struck an iceberg on its starboard side while moving at 25 knots. The ship was 400 nautical miles from Newfoundland. The ship sank quickly, and due to an insufficient amount of lifeboats, it took a majority of its passengers with it.

The story sounds familiar to anyone with even minor knowledge of the Titanic. However, that story above isn’t a description of what happened to the Titanic.

This is actually the plot of a novel titled Futility which was released 14 years before the Titanic ever set sail. The story was that of a man named John Rowland, an alcoholic and disgraced former Naval officer, who takes a job aboard the Titan, the worlds largest vessel. Robertson describes it as “unsinkable,” and “among the greatest works of men.” The Titan strikes an iceberg on its journey, sinking, and becoming one of the worlds greatest tragedies.
The tale could almost be an exact retelling of the Titanic tragedy, if not for its release date. In fact, that’s what makes it even more eerie.
The similarities between the Titan and the Titanic go far beyond a name and an iceberg. The length of the titan was 800 feet, the Titanic 882. The speed at which the Titan cruised into the iceberg was 25 knots. The Titanic’s was 22.5. The Titan held 2,500 passengers. The Titanic held 2,200, though both had a capacity of 3,000 https://allthatsinteresting.com/the-wreck-of-the-titan

[iambecomelife]

What do you guys make of the tapping noises they say the equipment has picked up? I'm not sure it's survivors; I suspect it has been too long for anyone to have survived. I think the noise could be pieces of Titanic's wreck banging in the current... The wreck of the "Amoco Cadiz", for example, is current-affected & "groans" loud enough for wreck divers to hear; they say it's a very loud, eerie noise. The sound may also be marine life - certain animals like shrimp can make a huge amount of noise underwater, despite being small.

I understand they want to keep the families' spirits up, but I wish the news ppl were realistic. At this point, I'm honestly hoping that they just imploded and felt nothing......that's probably the ideal outcome, rather than suffering for hours. :nope::nope:

[em2nought]

Did they take any straws with them for the drawing?
:hmmm:
Rock, paper, scissors, Spock. :03:

[Jimbuna]

I understand they want to keep the families' spirits up, but I wish the news ppl were realistic. At this point, I'm honestly hoping that they just imploded and felt nothing......that's probably the ideal outcome, rather than suffering for hours. :nope::nope:

Agreed :yep:

As of thirty minutes ago the BBC are reporting that the remotely operated vehicle (ROV) I is currently at Jersey Airport and due to be flown to the search site later today.

The ROV - called Juliet - scanned the Titanic wreck last summer and is an Argus Worker XL and is able to dive to 6,000m - well beyond the depth required in the search area.

Sadly, the company now estimates it will take about 50 to 60 hours to get to the site.

[Onkel Neal]

Agreed :yep:

As of thirty minutes ago the BBC are reporting that the remotely operated vehicle (ROV) I is currently at Jersey Airport and due to be flown to the search site later today.

The ROV - called Juliet - scanned the Titanic wreck last summer and is an Argus Worker XL and is able to dive to 6,000m - well beyond the depth required in the search area.

Sadly, the company now estimates it will take about 50 to 60 hours to get to the site.

There's no rush, I'm pretty sure the home-made sub imploded 4 days ago.

[Jimbuna]

There's no rush, I'm pretty sure the home-made sub imploded 4 days ago.

I fear you may well be right Neal :yep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD8lZ0dTEc8

[Exocet25fr]

The French "Victor 6000" ROV that can dive to 20000 feet (6000 metres) underwater is diving actually on the Titanic site...

The "NAUTILE" Sub must dive on the site too...

https://www.netcost-security.fr/actualites/167964/les-espoirs-du-sous-marin-titan-du-victor-6000-et-du-nautile-envoye-atteindre-les-6000-metres/

[Jimbuna]

Perhaps one of the luckiest men on the planet right now?

Tourist pulled out of going on missing Titanic sub over fears ‘crew were cutting corners'

Thrill-seeker Chris Brown, 61, signed up to join a mission to the wreck of the Titanic on the now missing submersible but changed his mind over doubts about its controls. A multi-millionaire digital marketing tycoon, Mr Brown paid a deposit to join a dive at the same time as Hamish Harding, who is one of five people missing after the sub lost contact with its mother ship on Sunday.

Mr Brown told The Sun he felt concerned at learning the vessel was controlled by a games console-style device.

The pilot uses a modified Logitech games controller with twin thumbsticks and four buttons which allow the operator to manoeuvre the vessel.

Mr Brown said he felt further unease because of technical issues and delays, which left him questioning whether the firm, OceanGate Expeditions, was cutting corners.

He said: "I found out they used old scaffolding poles for the sub's ballast - and its controls were based on computer game-style controllers. If you're trying to build your own submarine you could probably use old scaffold poles. But this was a commercial craft.

"Eventually, I emailed them and said, 'I'm no longer able to go on this thing'. I asked for a refund after being less than convinced."
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/tourist-pulled-out-of-going-on-missing-titanic-sub-over-fears-crew-were-cutting-corners/ar-AA1cQLwS?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=8453cb98de5c4683b96415784bfb6df6&ei=14

[Rockstar]

What do you guys make of the tapping noises they say the equipment has picked up? …

“Ahab Beckons.”

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_HGnwbRZ4M

[Exocet25fr]

Debris field discovered near the Titanic.....:oops:

https://news.sky.com/story/debris-field-discovered-within-search-area-near-titanic-us-coast-guard-says-12906735

[Skybird]

I thought of the aquarium water dome in that hotel in Berlin that recently, just a few months ago, just burst unexpectely, out of the blue. The American company that made the acryl glass still has not said/could not say what and why it happened.

I think of the submersible's quoted safety issues, missing certifications, problems with electric system and batteries - and the non-certitfied "ring" that connected the bow's bubble window with the main hull.

Pressure is a mighty enemy if you have to work against it.

[Rockstar]

BBC is reporting a debris field has been discovered by a ROV. But nobody has confirmed it's from Titan.

[Jimbuna]

It has supposedly been confirmed that it is the landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRd13ABoKrk

[Aktungbby]

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2873195 Past travelers who climbed into the minivan-sized tube that is the Titan deep-sea submersible knew they might die.
Risk of death is mentioned at least three times on a waiver they signed before boarding. As they dived deep into the ocean, untethered to the surface, sunlight faded away. In pitch-black waters, luminescent creatures became visible through a small porthole. The bone-chilling cold bloomed on the Titan’s curved walls.
One comedy writer brought a pad and a pencil on a trip last summer. If the vessel failed, said Mike Reiss, he would write jokes from the bottom of the ocean as his “last gift to the world.”
Joseph Wortman, who went on a trip in 2021, said it was sobering to be inside the Titan, whose hatch was bolted shut from the outside.
“This is pretty extreme,” said Wortman, the 53-year-old chief executive of a heater manufacturer in the Detroit area. “If something goes wrong, there’s no real out. You can’t call 911. You have to figure it out on your own.” Past travelers on deep-sea submersible excursions like the one that has triggered an international rescue mission in the North Atlantic say the risks posed by the voyages were clear, but that the thrill of reaching such ocean depths made the trips alluring. They called the experience uncomfortable and unnerving—but also unique and exhilarating. Tourists pay $250,000 and are trained for the dive, which typically lasts several hours, according to OceanGate’s website. As of Wednesday morning, the Titan craft carrying five people on a voyage to see the Titanic shipwreck remained missing. The U.S. Coast Guard said Canadian aircraft had detected underwater noises in the search for a missing submersible, as the clock ticked down in the race to find the crew before their air supply runs out. The disappearance of the submersible, created and operated by a small Washington-based company called OceanGate Expeditions, has raised questions about its deep-sea missions. OceanGate faced complaints from within the industry, including from at least one former employee.
Wortman said the company’s customers have a common desire to explore. An experienced airplane pilot, Wortman has had numerous adventure-travel experiences, including flying to the edge of the earth’s atmosphere in a MiG-25 aircraft and riding with the Blue Angels flight demonstration squadron.
Wortman said the vessel descended for several hours. The crew listened to music as they sank, looking at luminous sea creatures outside the window. Wortman said he helped with communications, exchanging text messages with the crew supporting the operation at the ocean’s surface. The submersible reached the Titanic wreckage and approached the stern section. Wortman said it was exciting to become one of a small number of people in the world to have seen the shipwreck up close, though unsettling at times.
One of the first things he did upon reaching the surface, he said, was to call his family to tell them he had made it back safely.
Reiss, 63, took an expedition aboard the Titan last July. The writer for “The Simpsons” said the risk of fatality was top-of-mind the entire time. Reiss said he has been to 134 countries and has no children. In a worst-case scenario, he said, he could take solace in having lived a good life.
The waiver all passengers must sign mentions death three times on the first page, Reiss said. Another prior passenger, David Pogue, a CBS Sunday Morning correspondent who went on the Titan last year at the invitation of OceanGate, showed The Wall Street Journal part of the waiver he signed. It read in part: “This operation will be conducted inside an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body,” and later: “Travel in and around the vehicle could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death.”
Reiss said the Titan is about the size of a minivan without seats, but he never felt claustrophobic. To make the vessel tilt down, he said, all the passengers gathered at the front. To tilt up, he said, they gathered at the back. “It all sounds rinky-dink, but in fact it’s all very comforting how simple and basic it is,” he said.
The submersible was about 500 yards from the Titanic wreckage after its descent. The craft’s compass didn’t work, he said. The crew found the wreckage after more than 90 minutes, and only had about 20 or 30 minutes to explore, he said. Colin Taylor, 60, took an OceanGate expedition with his adult son last July. The retired private-equity-fund manager said that on the day the Titan deployed, he spent a few hours in safety briefings before loading into the vessel and diving into the deep.
“Increasingly the creatures get more and more sophisticated,” he said of the deep-sea swimmers outside the porthole, calling it an alien world.
Taylor said the trip was unlike anything he had done before. “It really was an incredible week, intellectually, scientifically, from an engineering standpoint, and from an adventure standpoint,” he said.
Pogue said the submersible has a rudimentary toilet consisting of a bag and a bottle, and very little food aboard. “You’re sitting on the floor with your back against a curved wall. There’s no heating or cooling…it’s very hot at the surface and very cold when you’re at the bottom,” said Pogue, whose voyage was abandoned at 37 feet because of a fault with the platform from which the submersible is launched. Pogue signed the waiver before boarding the craft but felt reassured by the company’s safety record. “It literally lists eight different ways you could be killed or permanently disabled,” he said, adding that OceanGate had never had an injury, let alone a loss of life.
“It’s par for the course in this industry,” he said. “This is the North Atlantic. This is part of the deal when you sign up.” https://images.wsj.net/im-803722?width=1260&size=1.7777777777777777 BOTTOM LINE Neal's probably right; it was a massive hull implosion-gone in a second...if that!

[Rockstar]

The difference between something like Deepsea Challengeer and Titan. One is manufactured to industry standards that maximize efforts to make the necessity of scientific exploration as safe as can be. The other is like the carnival coming to town whose efforts goes into maximizing profits.

[em2nought]

Debris field is never a term you want to hear in regard to your own vessel.

[Platapus]

It is very sad, but probably the best ending they could have had.


An implosion at that depth would be quick.



When you engage in risky behavior, sometimes the risks don't work out in your favor.


RIP

[Commander Wallace]

This is certainly not the outcome I was hoping for. Rockstar pretty much summed things up in post # 94. Deep sea diving like other risky endeavors is serious business and demands respect.

It seems Titanic has claimed 5 more lives more than 100 years after it was lost and had claimed more than 1500 people in 1912. God speed to all of them and rest in peace.

[Rockstar]

‘Titanic’ director James Cameron on the ‘catastrophic implosion’ of Titan submersible: “I’m struck by the similarity of the Titanic disaster itself, where the captain was repeatedly warned about ice ahead of his ship and yet he steamed at full speed into an ice field."

https://youtu.be/WOvFR5tVQdc

[d@rk51d3]

There's no rush, I'm pretty sure the home-made sub imploded 4 days ago.

Yep. Probably about the time it reached halfway down.

[Skybird]

The US Navy detected sounds "consistent with an implosion" shortly after Titan lost contact, a navy official has said.

Like Neal said and I thought, the story was already over already at the very beginning. They lost comms and they were not detectable, that are two problems at the same time and that was the detail that made me think the sub imploded already at that early time.

Not being ironic or unrespoectful, but for the crew it was better this way. Everybody can understand what I mean.

[Jimbuna]

Who will be held accountable?

[em2nought]

Who will be held accountable?

Hopefully, we'll need to send all the lawyers in the world down to Titanic to figure this out. :D

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully, we'll need to send all the lawyers in the world down to Titanic to figure this out. :D

Why didn't I think of that :/\\!!

:)

[Ostfriese]

It is very sad, but probably the best ending they could have had.

An implosion at that depth would be quick.


The passengers very likely were dead before their brains had processed the information, so they never had the chance to notice, let alone understand that they were about to die.

[MaDef]

Who will be held accountable?

Moot point, as the founder and CEO of Oceangate was the pilot. So accountability has been taken care of.

[Jimbuna]

Moot point, as the founder and CEO of Oceangate was the pilot.

That is precisely what I am pondering over.

[Jeff-Groves]

Who will be held accountable?
In todays World? If anyone so much as touched that Death Trap to launch it?
They are gonna get raked over the coals, face probable charges as assisting to involuntary Man Slaughter, and maybe even a Hate Crime since a couple people were Pakistani.
God Forbid any of them were LGBTQ+! That would REALLY light a fuse!
:nope:

[Eichhörnchen]

Tell it like it is, Jeff :har: :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

Moira and I were in a quiet safe little thrift shop in town this morning and something made me think about those poor souls. I said to her that they were minted - among the richest people in the world - and they spent their money on a ticket to the grave. They'd have given it all away to be standing there with us today

[Jeff-Groves]

It ain't even got started yet! Navy said they detected a possible Implosion event the day contact was lost?
How many that sent help will Sue for costs? Kinda stupid to send help if they had known that information.
I see it as a Giant Turd dropped into a Fan! All kinds of walls gonna get painted with the spray!
:o

[Aktungbby]

I
How many that sent help will Sue for costs? Kinda stupid to send help if they had known that information.
:o Rescue efforts for the missing Titanic sub will probably cost millions, but it's unlikely OceanGate and its wealthy customers will be expected to foot the bill. A former Coast Guard commandant says that the massive search-and-rescue operation for the missing Titanic submersible will likely end up costing millions but that it would be unusual for the company running the vessel to have to pay the US back.

The US and Canadian authorities deployed at least one submarine, several aircraft, and sonar buoys to search for the submersible, which disappeared on Sunday while on the way to the Titanic shipwreck.

On Thursday, the operation was called off after debris from the sub was found and the five-person crew was presumed dead by the US Coast Guard.

During the search, special equipment, including the US Navy's Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System, or FADOSS, and a French deep-diving robot, were dispatched to find and possibly retrieve the submersible.

Chris Boyer, the executive director of the National Association for Search and Rescue, told The New York Times that the mission would "probably cost millions." Ret. Adm. Paul Zukunft, who previously led the Coast Guard, told The Washington Post that OceanGate Expeditions, the company that runs tours with the submersible, wouldn't be expected to reimburse the US government.

"It's no different than if a private citizen goes out and his boat sinks. We go out and recover him. We don't stick them with the bill after the fact," Zukunft told the outlet.

OceanGate charges people $250,000 each to see the Titanic, which rests some 13,000 feet underwater. The five people who died in the doomed vessel included the company's CEO and at least two billionaires.

The submersible, called Titan, was made of carbon fiber and started running annual tours in 2021. It went missing and imploded on its third expedition.

Mike Reiss, a former passenger who went on four trips with OceanGate, said that dives on the Titan were sometimes canceled due to dangerous weather conditions and that the vessel regularly lost communication with its mother ship. In 2018, the Titan's designers were confronted with safety concerns from a now-fired company executive and the Marine Technology Society — though it's unclear whether those issues were later addressed by OceanGate.

It's also unclear whether OceanGate requires its customers to obtain insurance before their trips, but the passengers were likely aware of the risks of embarking on a dive in the submersible.

David Pogue, a CBS correspondent who tried the submersible last year, said he had to sign a waiver before participating in the dive that acknowledged the Titan was an "experimental vessel" that wasn't "approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, emotional trauma, or death."

Reiss, a writer and producer for "The Simpsons," told CNN that he knew he might die when he visited the Titanic wreck with OceanGate last year.

"This wasn't a vacation. It wasn't tourism. It was exploration. And you're getting on a ship that's the best it could be, but they're learning as they go along," Reiss said. The five people in the submersible knew the risks that came with the trip, Reiss added.

"They made it as safe as they could make it. They trusted their own lives to it," Reiss said. "But they knew it could end this way."
The navy knew about ther Seismic event recording but it takes time thru channels to release that secret information.

[Jeff-Groves]

All I can say is Ya got to :salute: anyone that would pay that much money to climb into what is basically a garbage can and decend into the depths.

Last words were probably...............

"OH SH.."

[Platapus]

Unfortunately, the Titan sank in Lawyer infested waters.

[em2nought]

Unfortunately, the Titan sank in Lawyer infested waters.

Just wait until they see the photo of the monitor mount attached by screwing directly into the pressure hull. :o

[Jimbuna]

Just wait until they see the photo of the monitor mount attached by screwing directly into the pressure hull. :o

Not seen that, do you have a link?

[Exocet25fr]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/14h8odf/dont_drill_a_hole_into_carbon_fiber_it_ends_badly/

[Jimbuna]

Merci :up:

[Onkel Neal]

Just wait until they see the photo of the monitor mount attached by screwing directly into the pressure hull. :o

No kidding, I saw that image. That's crazy!

[Exocet25fr]

Inplosion effects.....:oops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9fw5lrLBo

[Onkel Neal]

Everything is always compared to the surface of the sun, or the size of Texas...

[mapuc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmFa0M6mOZw&ab_channel=TalkTV

Markus

[Aktungbby]

"OH SH.."

BOTTOM LINE Neal's probably right; it was a massive hull implosion-gone in a second...if that! Being devoted :subsim:ers, knowing the true nature of implosion is indispensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX24QMTyOls

[Rockstar]

^^^ Sure, death occurs before the central nervous system can even register what is happening. Unless of course in the case with Oceangate Titan there is a real time hull monitoring system installed that may have warned them of their eminent demise seconds or even longer before implosion.

Hey Stockton what’s that beeping sound? <POOF>

[mapuc]

It is said that before a person dies his or her life goes through a revue.

Or maybe it came so quick it wasn't time for it.

Markus

[Rockstar]

It is said that before a person dies his or her life goes through a revue.

Or maybe it came so quick it wasn't time for it.

Markus

While no two NDEs are the same, there are characteristic features that are commonly observed in NDEs. These characteristics include a perception of seeing and hearing apart from the physical body, passing into or through a tunnel, encountering a mystical light, intense and generally positive emotions, a review of part or all of their prior life experiences, encountering deceased loved ones, and a choice to return to their earthly life.2

One person who was born blind describes what they saw.

I slowly breathed in the water and became unconscious. A beautiful lady dressed in bright white light pulled me out. The lady looked into my eyes asked me what I wanted. I was unable to think of anything until it occurred to me to travel around the lake. As I did so, I saw detail that I would not have seen in “real” life. I could go anywhere, even to the tops of trees, simply by my intending to go there. I was legally blind. For the first time I was able to see leaves on trees, bird’s feathers, bird’s eyes, details on telephone poles and what was in people’s back yards. I was seeing far better than 20/20 vision. 16

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

[Jeff-Groves]

^^^ Sure, death occurs before the central nervous system can even register what is happening. Unless of course in the case with Oceangate Titan there is a real time hull monitoring system installed that may have warned them of their eminent demise seconds or even longer before implosion.

Hey Stockton what’s that beeping sound? <POOF>

We'll have to wait for the Movie to get an answer.
:88)

[Moonlight]

Chemical substances old boy, its all the rage these days, has anyone come back from the dead?, no, and there's a bloody big reason for that, and its got nothing to do with angels or fairy bleeding godmothers either. :O:

[Rockstar]

Chemical substances old boy, its all the rage these days, has anyone come back from the dead?, no, and there's a bloody big reason for that, and its got nothing to do with angels or fairy bleeding godmothers either. :O:


Our brains are one big chemical substance and we perceive the chemical reactions within it stimulated by the particles detected through sight, sound, touch, taste. The big question is where that perception is located. :06: I can't prove one way or the other and I'm not out to convince anyone either. But from the first one recorded by Plato in 380 B.C. to today I just can't arbitrarily discount people's experiences and chalk it up to bedtime stories. :yep: :03:

[Otto Harkaman]

I am curious about Rush's personal finances and the companie's. Seems such a shoe string operation with a lot of hype, con job? The number of failures and return to base launches with non-refundable payment from passengers raises a flag in my mind.

[ET2SN]

I am curious about the Rush's personal finances and the companies. Seems such a shoe string operation with a lot of hype, con job? The number of failures and return to base launches with non-refundable payment from passengers raises a flag in my mind.

Play stupid expensive games, win stupid expensive prizes. :yep:

[Aktungbby]

I am curious about the Rush's personal finances and the companies. Seems such a shoe string operation with a lot of hype, con job? The number of failures and return to base launches with non-refundable payment from passengers raises a flag in my mind.
https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/06/23/6495f84622601d67768b45ff.html A Las Vegas billionaire has exposed OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush's attempt to sell him discounted tickets for the ill-fated Titanic dive, claiming it would be safer than crossing the street. Jay Bloom, a property financing tycoon and former business partner of actor Treat Williams, shared text messages revealing Rush's sales pitch for the spots that were ultimately filled by Shahzada Dawood and his son Sulaiman.
As early as April, Rush began offering a last-minute price of $150,000, a significant $100,000 reduction from the usual cost of $250,000. Bloom and his son had expressed concerns about the sub's safety, prompting the discount. In a text exchange with the CEO, Bloom revealed that his son had researched potential risks and expressed unease about the dangers involved. I 100% knew this was going to happen," said Brian Weed, a camera operator for the Discovery Channel's "Expedition Unknown" show, who has felt sick to his stomach since the sub's disappearance Sunday. Weed went on a Titan test dive in May 2021 in Washington state's Puget Sound as it prepared for its first expeditions to the sunken Titanic. Weed and his colleagues were preparing to join OceanGate Expeditions to film the famous shipwreck later that summer. They quickly encountered problems: The propulsion system stopped working. The computers failed to respond. Communications shut down. Rush, the OceanGate CEO, tried rebooting and troubleshooting the vessel on its touch screens.
"You could tell that he was flustered and not really happy with the performance," Weed said. "But he was trying to make light of it, trying to make excuses."
They were barely 100 feet (30 meters) deep in calm water, which begged the question: "How is this thing going to go to 12,500 feet - and do we want to be on board?" Weed said.
Following the aborted trip, the production company hired a consultant with the U.S. Navy to vet the Titan.
>He provided a mostly favorable report, but warned that there wasn't enough research on the Titan's carbon-fiber hull, Weed said. There also was an engineering concern that the hull would not maintain its effectiveness over the course of multiple dives. <
Weed said Rush was a charismatic salesman who really believed in the submersible's technology - and was willing to put his life on the line for it.
"It was looking more and more like we weren't going to be the first guys down to film the Titanic - we were going to be maybe the 10th," Weed said of the possible Titan expedition. "I felt like every time (the vessel) goes down, it's going to get weaker and weaker. And that's a little bit like playing Russian roulette." BOTTOM LINE: its not the Carbon Fiber submarine so much as it's the thrill seekers mindset: FlyingWing suits,https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Steph_Davis_wingsuit_BASE_brento.jpg/800px-Steph_Davis_wingsuit_BASE_brento.jpg climbs up to Everest's Summit ( 300+-with an atrocious death (17) toll this year alone); Hang Gliging (4 a year;) Base cliff jumpers; Rock wall climbers (30 deaths a year) https://blog.gitnux.com/rock-climbing-death-statistics/ https://visitidaho.org/content/uploads/2021/11/CityOfRocks_CodyLee_BuildingBlocks_TheMechanic12pl us-scaled.jpg;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatalities_due_to_wingsuit_flying We're a little hung up at :subsim: 'cause it's a submarine thrill-seek failure which is actually somewhat warping a proper perspective of the whole sitiuation.:hmmm:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI5Jy62ti-4

[Ostfriese]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/14h8odf/dont_drill_a_hole_into_carbon_fiber_it_ends_badly/


Is that really part of the hull, or is it an interior lining/cladding/cover?

[Jimbuna]

Play stupid expensive games, win stupid expensive prizes. :yep:

Precisely! :yep:

[Platapus]

Is that really part of the hull, or is it an interior lining/cladding/cover?


looks like interior paneling. There are some publicity shots showing some of these removed for access

[Catfish]

Is that really part of the hull, or is it an interior lining/cladding/cover?
When i first saw this i did not believe it. But it seems this is was indeed the inner part of this carbon fibre hull :doh:

[Catfish]

Ok here it seems it is some inner cladding :

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/01/14/oceangate-raises-18m-to-dive-to-the-titanic.html

[Otto Harkaman]

^ that first picture is of another vessel, Cyclops 1

[em2nought]

What happens at 135 PSI, let alone 5,800 PSI down at Titanic. :o
https://twitter.com/ChudsOfTikTok/status/1671980004953956360

[Jimbuna]

Frightening really :o

[Exocet25fr]

I was a diver and i knew that: all the body finished in the helmet...:oops:

Remember 007:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj4A_l6hJyw

[vanjast]

ti·tan
\ ˈtaɪtn̩ \
noun
: one of a family of 12 giants in Greek mythology
: an extremely large and powerful person, company, etc.


Two vessels of the same name boasting of their strength and size, sink in the same location. Spa-spa-spooky :o
If you do a bit of digging, you'll find tons of information.
Generally things that people find hard to accept, but for people that are awake they see these relationships.
Have Fun.
:D

[Rockstar]

https://youtu.be/LEY3fN4N3D8
https://youtu.be/PW5ewM77LL0

[Catfish]

[...] Generally things that people find hard to accept, but for people that are awake they see these relationships.
Have Fun.
:D
Lol.
And you forgot: The Titanic sank because of an ICEBERG.
And the Titan sank without an ICEBERG.
So this word "ICEBERG" alone gives a connection ... I smell a conspiracy :D

[Aktungbby]

The navy knew about the Seismic event recording but it takes time thru channels to release that secret information. https://www.wsj.com/articles/titanic-titan-implosion-secret-military-technology-8c020e7bThere are government secrets, and then there are government secrets about underwater spying.

Of all the categories of national secrets the U.S. government keeps, few have been as tightly guarded as how the military uses sophisticated acoustic technology to keep an ear on what its adversaries are doing thousands of feet below the sea.

Driving the push for such capabilities are decades of Cold-War brinkmanship and fears about Soviet submarines that could launch nuclear weapons. Today’s tensions with China have provided a reminder of the systems’ importance: The People’s Liberation Army Navy sails a fleet of dozens of submarines, including six that can carry ballistic missiles. “Anything involving the nuclear triad is supersecret,” said Brynn Tannehill, a senior technical analyst at RAND, referring to the strategic concept of nuclear weapons deployed from land, sea and air. “Anything involving U.S. sensor capabilities is supersecret.”

One such system—it couldn’t be determined which—heard what officials thought could be the implosion of the Titan submersible just hours after the vehicle began its voyage Sunday to the wreck of the Titanic. The U.S. Navy reported its findings to the Coast Guard commander on site, U.S. officials said. While the Navy couldn’t say definitively the sound came from the Titan, the discovery helped to narrow the scope of the search for the lost craft before its debris was discovered Thursday.

U.S. efforts to develop underwater-surveillance capacities trace back more than a century. Sonar, which uses sound waves to detect and locate objects, was used in World War I by the British and others to detect submarines. During World War II, the U.S. developed long-range sonar systems to detect German U-boats in the Atlantic.

At the dawn of the Cold War, the U.S. began work on what would become the Sound Surveillance System, or SOSUS. Developed to detect Soviet nuclear submarines, SOSUS relied on a network of listening devices called hydrophones fixed to the sea floor. Even the program’s name was kept classified until after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The location and capabilities of the hydrophones remain secret today. The system remains in use today, and it likely detected the noises made by the implosion of the Titan, said Tannehill, the Rand analyst. But other detection methods might also have aided the search. Whatever happened, it might be a long time before the government discloses its secrets.

“As soon as you start talking about anti-submarine warfare systems and boats in the North Atlantic, you immediately hit top-secret clearance,” Tannehill said.

“So if the Navy doesn’t seem particularly forthcoming, it can’t be particularly forthcoming without presidential authority to declassify anything they say,” the BOTTOM LINE from someone who been to the bottom-several times-33 dives to RMS titanic alone!!: https://nypost.com/2023/06/23/james-cameron-blames-titanic-subs-carbon-fiber-hull-for-implosion/ James Cameron on Friday blamed the carbon fiber composite construction hull of the doomed OceanGate submersible for its tragic implosion this week. It was always doomed to implode: James Cameron says Titan sub's Achilles heel was 'fundamentally-flawed' carbon fiber hull which weakened after each of its 10 expeditions - and fears occupants may have realized they were about to die
There were two titanium end caps on each end. They are relatively intact on the sea floor. But that carbon fiber composite cylinder is now just in very small pieces. It's all rammed into one of the hemispheres. It's pretty clear that's what failed.'

Rush, who died in the Titan incident, said in a video posted online in 2021 that he had 'broken some rules' to create the vessel and added: 'The carbon fiber and titanium, there's a rule you don't do that – well I did.'

He also said in 2020 that the hull had 'showed signs of cyclical fatigue'.

Carbon fiber is prone to delamination, the process whereby a material fractures into layers while put under pressure.

Cameron said: 'The way it fails is it delaminates. You have to have a hull, a pressure hull, made out of a contiguous material like steel, or like titanium, which is the proven standard.'

'This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of the hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack. And I think if that's your idea of safety, then you're doing it wrong. And they probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, and it started to crack...
The material likely led to the “critical failure” that claimed the lives of five passengers aboard the minivan-sized craft, Cameron told ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos.

“You don’t use composites for vessels that are seeing external pressure,” he said. “They’re great for internal pressure vessels like scuba tanks, for example, but they’re terrible for external pressure.”

Cameron said the submersible’s designers relied on aviation engineering rather than submergence technology — an approach he believes led to the implosion during a tour of Titanic wreckage. ames Cameron on Friday blamed the carbon fiber composite construction hull of the doomed OceanGate submersible for its tragic implosion this week.
The material likely led to the “critical failure” that claimed the lives of five passengers aboard the minivan-sized craft, Cameron told ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos. “They fail over time, each dive adds more and more microscopic damage,” he said. “So, yes, they operated the sub safely at Titanic last year and the year before, but it was only a matter of time before it caught up with them.” The film director said he had warned other would-be explorers against using submersibles made using composite materials, telling one such owner “you’re going to die down there, if you dive that thing.”
“I wish I'd spoken up, but I assumed somebody was smarter than me, you know, because I never experimented with that technology, but it just sounded bad on its face," Cameron told Reuters.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who died in the submersible, previously asserted that carbon fiber was preferable to alternatives like titanium.:oops:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/06/23/19/72433681-12227555-image-a-4_1687543327217.jpg https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227555/Titanic-director-James-Cameron-reveals-Titan-subs-Achilles-heel.html https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/06/24/06/72470683-12227555-Cameron_in_2012_after_his_successful_solo_dive_in_ Deepsea_Challe-a-65_1687584492953.jpg<Cameron in 2012 after his successful solo dive in Deepsea Challenger to the deepest-known point on Earth, the Pacific Ocean's Mariana Trench:salute:

[Bilge_Rat]

on the USN detecting the explosion.

It is not as simple as some people make it out. SOSUS is highly classified, but some stuff is always coming out. I don't think someone actually heard the "implosion" or recorded it. SOSUS has sensors placed in strategic locations around the ocean, they listen to overything, but since the Oceans are very noisy, computers will try to pick up unusual wavelengths that could identify enemy subs.

When USS Thresher went down in 1963, SOSUS sensors picked up the "implosion", but based on what I read, it was more of an unusual blip. Technicians then had to analyse to see what it was and , as I recall, it was only by correlating the time with the Thresher timeline, that they were able to say it was a recording of the implosion.

Obviously things have changed in 60 years, but you probably had the same process where it took some time until they could see that SOSUS had actually recorded the Titan imploding.

[Aktungbby]

SOSUS has sensors placed in strategic locations around the ocean :hmmm:...well any SOSUS in Newfoundland waters would have to be 'purely tactical":shucks::O:

[Commander Wallace]

on the USN detecting the explosion.

It is not as simple as some people make it out. SOSUS is highly classified, but some stuff is always coming out. I don't think someone actually heard the "implosion" or recorded it. SOSUS has sensors placed in strategic locations around the ocean, they listen to overything, but since the Oceans are very noisy, computers will try to pick up unusual wavelengths that could identify enemy subs.

When USS Thresher went down in 1963, SOSUS sensors picked up the "implosion", but based on what I read, it was more of an unusual blip. Technicians then had to analyse to see what it was and , as I recall, it was only by correlating the time with the Thresher timeline, that they were able to say it was a recording of the implosion.

Obviously things have changed in 60 years, but you probably had the same process where it took some time until they could see that SOSUS had actually recorded the Titan imploding.


Through triangulation of various sensors, Sosus is more accurate than than what may be believed. Also, with more sophisticated and powerful computers that are programed to detect anomalies, it's a lot easier to differentiate and filter events like an implosion from background noises like marine life that are Indigenous to the oceans as opposed to ships and the like.

Sosus also recorded the loss of the Scorpion (SSN-589 ) Navy Scientist John P. Craven confirmed that many times in interviews.

[Aktungbby]

https://i.imgur.com/RPO9gwd.jpeg Keep down the noise Comrades or they'll hear us! :oops:

[em2nought]

The navy knew about ther Seismic event recording but it takes time thru channels to release that secret information.

...or "somebody" might have wanted the news cycle dominated by this story instead of "other" stories appearing that same week. :03:

[Rockstar]

...or "somebody" might have wanted the news cycle dominated by this story instead of "other" stories appearing that same week. :03:

Doubtful. When sensors pick up a potentially unnatural anomaly, the screen doesn’t say ‘hey the titan imploded. Only when all the pieces of the puzzle come together are official statements made. Such as when Oceangate gets on the radio and says they lost comms with the sub. The oxygen levels have run out and search teams discover the wreckage. The Navy doesn’t get to decide what is shared with the public during rescue efforts.

[Ostfriese]

Through triangulation of various sensors, Sosus is more accurate than than what may be believed. Also, with more sophisticated and powerful computers that are programed to detect anomalies, it's a lot easier to differentiate and filter events like an implosion from background noises like marine life that are Indigenous to the oceans as opposed to ships and the like.

Sosus also recorded the loss of the Scorpion (SSN-589 ) Navy Scientist John P. Craven confirmed that many times in interviews.


Triangulation tells you WHERE something has happened, but not WHAT has happened. Finding out what has happened just by its sounds is difficult enough at the surface and in the air, but a real challenge underwater. Of course the location could have given clues and they could have (and likely will have) made a presumption, but it takes time to confirm it.

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully the end came in the blink of an eye and not like that in the movie below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T-ZMDt_2IY

[em2nought]

Hopefully the end came in the blink of an eye and not like that in the movie below.[/url]

I'm not sure if I want to know I'm about to die or if I want to remain oblivious? :hmmm: They told my brother in his last hour that there was nothing they could do for him, but my father just got to drift off in his sleep unknowingly as far as I could tell. I'm just not sure which is better.

How fast is an implosion versus how fast for pain receptors to receive input?

[Jimbuna]

I'm just not sure which is better.



Agreed :yep:

[Bilge_Rat]

In the case of the USS thresher, it was estimated the implosion occured in less than 0.1 second or too fast to realize what is happening, i.e. they died instantly.

[Ostfriese]

How fast is an implosion versus how fast for pain receptors to receive input?


The implosion is much faster. The people aboard were dead before their brains could have processed the information that the submersible had imploded. Death can hardly come faster than this.



There are public pictures around of the recovered submersible parts being unloaded in St. Jons, Canada, for example in this article
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/salvaged-debris-from-titan-submersible-contains-presumed-human-remains-coast-guard/ar-AA1dakj7
or this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npXhDnSbhBY



It's easy to see that the recovered parts are elements from the bow and the aft of the submersible. Those parts were made of titanium, and considering what has happened they are surprisingly intact.
The carbon fiber "tube", the main section, is simply gone, it will have broken into thousands of small pieces. Everything inside was then pressed within milliseconds into the titanium parts (especially at the front).

The small transparent section in the bow cupola has been blown out completely (you can see it missing in the pictures), which should give an impression of the force of the pressure. I'd wager a guess that this piece of transparent material (was it made of glass? I don't know) is still in one piece, somewhere on the seabed of the Atlantic.

[Exocet25fr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBolLOV-c0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsUQELlaZTs

[em2nought]

Oh, now they start keep the Titan tarped against the harmful effects of the sun. :D

[Exocet25fr]

Curious for an implosion !?, the pieces aren't completly destroyed !, look at the front cover.....?. Maybe it was a waterway, and after ths sub sunk to the seafloor....No? :hmmm:

[ET2SN]

...No? :hmmm:

No. Carbon fiber composite is strong but when it fails, it shatters.
The titanium end plugs were stronger than the carbon hull, which is why they survived. :yep:

[Platapus]

More than you ever wanted to know about Carbon Fiber...
Carbon Fiber is strong in tension, but not so strong in compression
People have to realize what Carbon Fiber is. It is carbon fibers in a plastic resin. The full correct name is Carbon fiber-reinforced polymers (CFRP).
It is not magic. It is mixing types of fiber in types of plastic.

It is a compound composite consisting of two parts: a matrix and a reinforcement. In CFRP the reinforcement is carbon fiber, which provides its strength. The matrix is usually a thermosetting plastic, such as polyester resin, to bind the reinforcements together.
Unlike steel and such, CFRPs have directional strength properties. Meaning that they are strong only in the dimension that they are designed to be strong in. This means that there is no such thing as an all purpose CFRP when strength is involved.

Reporting was that the CEO purchased CFRP at a discounted price because it was left over. Unless the strength dimension matches your intended use, this may not be such a swell idea.

CFRPs are not used when strength is required, but when there is a strength to weight requirement. It is a compromise between strength and weight with weight normally being the desired factor. If you want to make something strong and don't care about weight, you use metals. If you are primarily interested in weight, you use plastics.

The biggest problem with CFRPs, and especially in this context, is that there is no way to calculate what is called fatigue limits or how long the CFRP will survive repeated flexing or deformation. With metals, smart people can calculate this pretty well. But because so much depends on the compound composition and structure of CFRPs, only a rough approximation can be made.
BTW, CFRPs don't like changes in temperature and moisture. Two things that really can't be avoided in a deep submersible.

When no one else makes submarines out of CFRP, there just might be a good reason.

In short, there are many many great applications of CFRPs. Making a submarine just ain't one of them. :nope:

[em2nought]

More than you ever wanted to know about Carbon Fiber...

Reporting was that the CEO purchased CFRP at a discounted price because it was left over.

I read someplace that he misinterpreted the meaning of "substandard" :D

[Jimbuna]

The Titanic Foundation is investigating whether the boss of the fatal tourist submersible misled its foremost expert to get them aboard the doomed expedition.

The group, spearheaded by victim Paul-Henri Nargeolet, is probing owner Stockton Rush’s numerous claims about his Titan underwater craft.

This comes just days after a submersible expert suggested Nargeolet’s trips on the sub “legitimised” the OceanGate vessel despite numerous concerns over its safety.

[Bilge_Rat]

Very interesting article on the "Titan". Seems a lot of people in the Deep Sea diving community had concerns about the design.


https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen

[Platapus]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen


A most interesting article.


Rush eventually decided that he would not attempt to have the Titanic-bound vehicle classed by a marine-certification agency such as DNV. He had no interest in welcoming into the project an external evaluator who would, as he saw it, “need to first be educated before being qualified to ‘validate’ any innovations.”
Yeah. I think that is what is called in the business as "poor judgement" . These inspectors are too stupid to recognize Rush's super genius. :nope:



Rush replied four days later, saying that he had “grown tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation and new entrants from entering their small existing market.” He understood that his approach “flies in the face of the submersible orthodoxy, but that is the nature of innovation,” he wrote. “We have heard the baseless cries of ‘you are going to kill someone’ way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult.”
https://www.ningthing.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Godzilla-Facepalm-godzilla-30354011-640-387.jpg




If you’re not breaking things, you’re not innovating,” Rush said, at the GeekWire Summit last fall. “If you’re operating within a known environment, as most submersible manufacturers do—they don’t break things. To me, the more stuff you’ve broken, the more innovative you’ve been.”
https://g3.img-dpreview.com/800D1636090B4F32A1DA65A6D10941E8.jpg


I am just sorry that innocent people had to die because of his hubris and ego.



requiescat in pace

[Torvald Von Mansee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dj8IJbP41c

I thought that was pretty interesting, if true.

[Catfish]

[...]
I thought that was pretty interesting, if true.
It is, thanks for posting.
:eek:

[Aktungbby]

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/7152932a-2404-4e58-9d30-22d2b54fa9d0-AI2HTML_ST_SUBSEARCH2-_620px.jpgNo one who's been in a MRI machine 3 times in one year(prostate, diverticulitis, and stroke)https://media.gettyimages.com/id/56959352/photo/close-up-of-a-person-getting-an-cat-scan.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=3AIOFdGYSfa8XILjZB27zuLTjYOQmJdm1gbVuRhPLTE= would even dream of getting into this contraption!:O: but like your avater: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/ranks/luckyjack15.jpg" Lucky Jack Aubrey says: "What a fascinating modern age we live in"??!!

I'm just not sure which is better.

How fast is an implosion versus how fast for pain receptors to receive input?

Agreed :yep: YER both dead wrong!:D Having arrived in an MRI machine twice in the the last semester, I wanna know if it's the damn 'pearly gates" next time!:yep::arrgh!::shucks::oops: :dead: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZC05HyUAAARDhE?format=jpg&name=small EDIT:I read this AM that Ocean Gate has "ceased operations"....talk 'bout a "knee jerk response!" White Star LINES ( now Carnaval Lines) which started this mess never did!!??:yeah::arrgh!:

[em2nought]

I thought that was pretty interesting, if true.

Doesn't "sound" fun. :o

[Platapus]

More scary Rush quotes


He thought that the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, "needlessly prioritized passenger safety over commercial innovation."


June 2019



https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/worlds-first-deep-diving-submarine-plans-tourists-see-titanic-180972179/



"needlessly prioritized passenger safety"


Now that's a phrase we don't normally hear.

[Aktungbby]

https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/LfjnG6vq3xzXbc48sVcbM9smMIs=/fit-in/1072x0/https://tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com/filer/d6/78/d67848d2-7264-4321-8498-1f7f23d50eb2/jun2019_f05_submarine.jpg< one wonders what the world speed record for lefty-lucying 17 bolts actually is!!??:hmmm::ping::ping::ping::ping::timeout::dead : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfUcNPr2T8A <BOTTOM LINE: the the corporeal zip to zap at 2233 degrees F. was a millisecond...

[em2nought]

one wonders what the world speed record for lefty-lucying 17 bolts actually is!!??

I wonder if Rush got his torque wrench from Harbor Freight? :D

[ET2SN]

I wonder if Rush got his common sense from Harbor Freight? :D

:up:

[Skybird]

I randomly caught a headline form a German news snippet saying that of 90 attempts of the Titan submersible to reach the Titanic, only 13 were successful.

Failure rate 86%, my pocket calculator tells my slow brain.

[Jimbuna]

https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/LfjnG6vq3xzXbc48sVcbM9smMIs=/fit-in/1072x0/https://tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com/filer/d6/78/d67848d2-7264-4321-8498-1f7f23d50eb2/jun2019_f05_submarine.jpg< one wonders what the world speed record for lefty-lucying 17 bolts actually is!!??:hmmm::ping::ping::ping::ping::timeout::dead : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfUcNPr2T8A <BOTTOM LINE: the the corporeal zip to zap at 2233 degrees F. was a millisecond...

I'm counting 16 :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

made ya look!:Kaleun_Goofy:...seriously, math was never my strong suit; & I counted them "(VINCENT)twice" jus' 2 B sure!!:oops:

[Aktungbby]

I randomly caught a headline form a German news snippet saying that of 90 attempts of the Titan submersible to reach the Titanic, only 13 were successful.

Failure rate 86%, my pocket calculator tells my slow brain. I already posted that in the Useless Facts thread!:Kaleun_Goofy: post #2687 as I deemed it a more proper thread! I assure you, these daze, my brain is even slower than yours!:timeout::oops:

[Aktungbby]

I wonder if Rush got his torque wrench from Harbor Freight? :DAHEM! torque my arse! https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1dBPEA.img?w=800&h=415&q=60&m=2&f=jpg:shucks:

[Exocet25fr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-_lPzFSQdo

And more....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diRJluuOPq4

[mapuc]

Their death came within 1 millisecond.

Their battle to survive though, was minutes or so. Here I'm thinking on the communication between the sub and the mothership.

One can only imagine what went through the head of the people in the sub during the technical problems they got.

Markus

[Rockstar]

made ya look!:Kaleun_Goofy:...seriously, math was never my strong suit; & I counted them "(VINCENT)twice" jus' 2 B sure!!:oops:

you were right the first time, there are 17 bolts on the titanium end cap used to seal them in that coffin. only 16 around the viewport.

[mapuc]

Submarine operator Karl Stanley says he warned his friend, OceanGate Expeditions' chief executive Stockton Rush, about the dangers of the craft after going on a test dive with him in 2019 - during which "every three to four minutes there were loud gunshot like noises".

https://news.sky.com/story/stockton-rush-friend-of-oceangate-ceo-says-he-created-a-mousetrap-for-billionaires-12924142

Markus

[Rockstar]

Humans to Venus! So, who’s signing up for this ride, anyone? :haha:


OceanGate co-founder wants to send 1,000 people to a floating colony on Venus by 2050

https://nypost.com/2023/07/28/oceangate-co-founder-wants-people-live-on-venus-by-2050/

The co-founder of OceanGate Expeditions doesn’t appear to be deterred by the Titan submersible tragedy, and is pushing the limits of extreme travel with ambitions to send 1,000 humans to live in a floating colony on Venus by 2050.

Guillermo Söhnlein — who co-founded OceanGate alongside Stockton Rush in 2009 but later stepped away in 2013 — is also the founder and chairman of Humans2Venus, which he describes on LinkedIn as “a private venture focused on establishing a permanent human presence in the Venusian atmosphere.”

“Forget OceanGate. Forget Titan. Forget Stockton. Humanity could be on the verge of a big breakthrough and not take advantage of it because we, as a species, are gonna get shut down and pushed back into the status quo,” Söhnlein told Insider.

The outlet reported that the 57-year-old Argentine-born businessman pointed to findings by NASA that say there’s a sliver of the Venusian atmosphere about 30 miles from the surface where humans could theoretically survive.

Söhnlein’s envisions creating a floating colony that could withstand the sulfuric acids in Venus’ clouds — just one element of the planet’s atmosphere that makes it uninhabitable to humans.

He failed to address how this proposed space station for as many as 1,000 colonists would handle the 224 mile-per-hour, hurricane-force winds that are also characteristic of Venus, according to NASA.

“It is aspirational, but I think it’s also very doable by 2050,” he told Insider.

Representatives for Humans2Venus didn’t respond to The Post’s request for comment.

In a blog post shared to Human2Venus’ website in February, Söhnlein wrote: “I am not an engineer or a scientist, but I have ultimate faith in the abilities of both. Therefore, I always figured that they would be able to overcome the myriad challenges facing us in the extreme environment of space.”

He also explained that the organization picked Venus because of gravity.

Venus, which is often referred to as Earth’s “sister planet” because of their similar size and mass makeup, has about the same surface gravity as Earth does.

“When I was 11 years old, I had a recurring dream that I was the commander of the first human community on Mars,” Söhnlein also wrote in the post.

“I have spent the more than four decades since then doing whatever I could to help humanity become a multi-planet species.”

OceanGate was another venture where Söhnlein sought out his little-boy dream, he told Insider. He said that he and Rush “both saw underwater exploration — and especially using crewed submersibles — as the closest thing that we could do to go into space and further that vision without actually going into space.”

That dream ended in tragedy when the Titan submersible experienced a “catastrophic implosion” on its journey down to the famed Titanic shipwreck last month, killing all five passengers on board, including Rush, who was navigating the vessel using a video game controller.

Similarly to OceanGate, Humans2Venus will operate as a privately-funded operation aiming to make space exploration cheaper.

In his blog post, Söhnlein suggested that “a *private* group could certainly advocate such a vision,” and could likely do it faster than NASA, a US government agency.

“I could fully understand the political and economic realities that prevented NASA from adopting a ‘Moon, Venus, Mars and Beyond’ vision instead of its current ‘Moon, Mars and Beyond’ long-term plan,” he wrote.

According to LinkedIn, Söhnlein’s is the chairman of the WayPaver Foundation, a research-guided grant that, according to its website, has funded both OceanGate and Humans2Venus’ efforts.

It has also supported Blue Marble Exploration, a high-profile exhibition company founded by Söhnlein, who also serves as its chief executive.

Blue Marble’s team has taken five trips to space, summited Mount Everest and has plans to venture to the “virtually-unexplored” Dean’s Blue Hole in 2024 — the world’s second-deepest marine cavern at a depth of 663 feet — its site says.

[Jimbuna]

No thanks, I think I'll give that one a miss.

[Rockstar]

https://youtu.be/vXD9v_iqvvY

https://youtu.be/i7Fseh64Lq8