Enemy task forces disappearing, Impossible to intercept task force!

[Steve_i400]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/525388377483247670/1010750816816214056/route.png

Hello! I've been playing a lot of lately GWX silent hunter 3 and have found what appears to be a bug. I get these "enemy task force" reports that are going 8 knots (they most often follow this route drawn on the map, not always though).
However whenever I try to intercept them, they seem to vanish before my hydrophone is able to pick them up. I've tried to intercept them about 20 times now and I'm 100% sure they are disappearing when they get within the game "rendering" range. (to cut the long story short I'm 100% confident in my ability to intercept a convoy going 8 knots, I've done it over 50 times now), but for some reason ALL enemy task forces seem to disappear before I get in contact. *friendly task forces don't dissapear, I'm able to intercept them just fine
I can't be the only one with this issue, has anyone else noticed it's impossible to intercept enemy task forces?

Has anyone ever even managed to intercept a taskforce?

Is there any known fix?


*I tried reinstalling the game and am currently playing on a fresh GWX download with the ARB wide GUI mod, that's all


Thanks in advance for any help or replies!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hello! I've been playing a lot of lately GWX silent hunter 3 and have found what appears to be a bug. I get these "enemy task force" reports that are going 8 knots (they most often follow this route drawn on the map, not always though).
However whenever I try to intercept them, they seem to vanish before my hydrophone is able to pick them up. I've tried to intercept them about 20 times now and I'm 100% sure they are disappearing when they get within the game "rendering" range. (to cut the long story short I'm 100% confident in my ability to intercept a convoy going 8 knots, I've done it over 50 times now), but for some reason ALL enemy task forces seem to disappear before I get in contact. *friendly task forces don't dissapear, I'm able to intercept them just fine
I can't be the only one with this issue, has anyone else noticed it's impossible to intercept enemy task forces?

Has anyone ever even managed to intercept a taskforce?

Is there any known fix?

*I tried reinstalling the game and am currently playing on a fresh GWX download with the ARB wide GUI mod, that's all

Thanks in advance for any help or replies!

I'll ask our campaign doctor to take a look at them in relation to our next release. (GWX - Knight's Cross edition)

Generally, as I recall without looking, task forces in GWX truck along at rather high speeds to make them difficult to be intercepted by U-boats, and to make torpedo firing solutions difficult. Task forces can certainly scoot down the road much more quickly than merchant convoys. Eight knots actually seems really slow for a task force to me... less than half speed actually.

I don't recall offhand, if they make random zigzags along their plotted courses, as merchant convoys do.

They do not disappear just because you get close in GWX. They do disappear at the end of their programmed sortie.

If you did not get a marking on your navigation map showing their general position at the time of the report, then you received a radio message that is only there for the sake of 'atmosphere' and to help make it feel like you aren't the only U-boat out there on the water.

[Steve_i400]

I'll ask our campaign doctor to take a look at them in relation to our next release. (GWX - Knight's Cross edition)

Generally, as I recall without looking, task forces in GWX truck along at rather high speeds to make them difficult to be intercepted by U-boats, and to make torpedo firing solutions difficult. Task forces can certainly scoot down the road much more quickly than merchant convoys. Eight knots actually seems really slow for a task force to me... less than half speed actually.

I don't recall offhand, if they make random zigzags along their plotted courses, as merchant convoys do.



They do not disappear just because you get close in GWX. They do disappear at the end of their programmed sortie.

If you did not get a marking on your navigation map showing their general position at the time of the report, then you received a radio message that is only there for the sake of 'atmosphere' and to help make it feel like you aren't the only U-boat out there on the water.

First of all thank you for this amazing project, I didn't expect you'd respond! Now that I know a new GWX is being developed I might want to add some more details to this potential bug report;

The radio report is 100% real because it shows up on the map as a large task force icon and has a "medium" speed, it also updates every few hours so I was able to calculate it's speed by looking at how far it's moved since the last update and I got a speed of 7.999 knots, so that confirms that they do indeed go 8 knots

As for them disappearing because they reached the end of their path that is not possible because I tried intercepting them in many different places.

In fact no other large enemy task forces seem to be spawning for me except these large 8 knot ghost task forces that I am unable to intercept. (I played through the career 1939-mid1941)
Small destroyer task forces do spawn normally.

Also I should add that this task force moves down the coast and updates every few hours but when I try to intercept it and it "disappears", it stops updating the radio report (it disappears and is no longer updated every few hours) This leads me to believe that it does in fact disappear.

[Pisces]

Where are you when they disappear? Can you point that out on the map? Where are you when you start your intercept, and how far does it take you to get to them? As it is normal that they disappear when it reaches Harwic/Southend region. I would hope you reach them much earlier up north of this path.

[Hooston]

I also noticed this task force and failed to intercept it, although I wasn't trying very hard.
I looked at the GWX campaign in the SH3 editor and couldn't find any scripted task forces in the relevant time/place. There are lots of random convoys, small groups of ships and single merchants going along that sort of route around that time, usually at 8 knots.
Could be that someone in GWX team defined a random group and a route but failed to put any ships in it. Easily done and hard to debug with the available tools. Or could be a problem in the basic game. Put it down to Winston Churchill spreading misinformation - the task group that never was..

While using the SH3 editor go see how many mines those nasty GWX people scattered off the East Coast and ask yourself if you really should be going there.

[Steve_i400]

Where are you when they disappear? Can you point that out on the map? Where are you when you start your intercept, and how far does it take you to get to them? As it is normal that they disappear when it reaches Harwic/Southend region. I would hope you reach them much earlier up north of this path.
Well, it depends on where I intercept them, so they disappear whenever I get close to them. I've intercepted them in many places from just south of Scapa Flow to just outside of London, they always disappear about 30km away from my submarine (the radio report stops updating and they don't show up on hydrophone). I believe the user Hooston posted the most likely explanation in the replies, there may not be any task force files for the early part of the war so nothing shows up ingame.

[Steve_i400]

I also noticed this task force and failed to intercept it, although I wasn't trying very hard.
I looked at the GWX campaign in the SH3 editor and couldn't find any scripted task forces in the relevant time/place. There are lots of random convoys, small groups of ships and single merchants going along that sort of route around that time, usually at 8 knots.
Could be that someone in GWX team defined a random group and a route but failed to put any ships in it. Easily done and hard to debug with the available tools. Or could be a problem in the basic game. Put it down to Winston Churchill spreading misinformation - the task group that never was..

While using the SH3 editor go see how many mines those nasty GWX people scattered off the East Coast and ask yourself if you really should be going there.
This explanation makes perfect sense, thanks for checking it out!
And yea about the mines, I was running away from a destroyer once and decided to peek through the pericope to see if it was above me only to discover I was surrounded by mines, spooky stuff!

[Hebe Vollmaus]

...
Could be that someone in GWX team defined a random group and a route but failed to put any ships in it.
...

LOL. Nice idea, thank you!
Have you tried this yourself? How does it work for you?

set No= to 0
Will spawn one,

set No= to -1
will spawn one,

set SpawnProbability= to 0
will spawn one,

delete entries below MainEntry ([RndGroup X.RndUnit X])
will crash in-game when Group should spawn,

delete also this MainEntry
will crash the game onLoad CampaignMission.

For me your idea does not work.



Steve_i400
I have checked more or less all Main-BigMods Campaign-files including GWX v3.0 also known as "Gold", but have not found such crap.


Also i can not remember that i ever found a TaskForce sailing that slow. Usually they turn 15 until upto 34 knots. The "normal" User-Submarine is not fast enough to intercept a TaskForce from behind. You must be lucky to see them in front of you. There is mostly only a few seconds to shoot some torpedoes.



In SH3 there IS a Bug, well i will call it a Feature, that it will show an icon on the Nav-Map, but there is no Unit. It has nothing to do with GWX. It has to do with the 'GameExitDate='. But i'm sure this will NOT happen fifty times on different places. This will only happen, when one of the very Last intervall (DelayMinInterv=) from an RND-Group is already 'On the Way'.


Even the Picture in 1st post is nice, a picture tells more then hundred words, it has no useful information for me. What Date and Time exactly, what position of the boat, where is the TaskForce-icon.
Have you tried to find this TaskForce in the Campaign-files? The GWX is the original GWX?


I can only shoot a round into the blue heaven here...


BTW, to find 'Kameraden' with the same problems a SearchMashine may help. I would start with something like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=GWX+TaskForce+site:subsim.com

[Jeff-Groves]

You get a report of a task force in a radio message?
:haha:

Do this...............
Try the exact same mission after removing the messages_en.txt in the Campaign folder.

[Hooston]

'Tis the ghost task force I tell thee, doomed to travel between the Isle of Mull and Southend on Sea until the end of time (or 1941, whichever comes sooner). Its spirit can be detected over the aether yet none have seen it and lived to tell the tale.


To quote from the 1941 movie "The ghost train"


"If this be a natural thing, where do it come from, where do it go?"


Well, Scotland and Southend. So I think it must be a natural thing. Can someone go and sink it for me?

[Steve_i400]

LOL. Nice idea, thank you!
Have you tried this yourself? How does it work for you?

set No= to 0
Will spawn one,

set No= to -1
will spawn one,

set SpawnProbability= to 0
will spawn one,

delete entries below MainEntry ([RndGroup X.RndUnit X])
will crash in-game when Group should spawn,

delete also this MainEntry
will crash the game onLoad CampaignMission.

For me your idea does not work.



Steve_i400
I have checked more or less all Main-BigMods Campaign-files including GWX v3.0 also known as "Gold", but have not found such crap.


Also i can not remember that i ever found a TaskForce sailing that slow. Usually they turn 15 until upto 34 knots. The "normal" User-Submarine is not fast enough to intercept a TaskForce from behind. You must be lucky to see them in front of you. There is mostly only a few seconds to shoot some torpedoes.



In SH3 there IS a Bug, well i will call it a Feature, that it will show an icon on the Nav-Map, but there is no Unit. It has nothing to do with GWX. It has to do with the 'GameExitDate='. But i'm sure this will NOT happen fifty times on different places. This will only happen, when one of the very Last intervall (DelayMinInterv=) from an RND-Group is already 'On the Way'.


Even the Picture in 1st post is nice, a picture tells more then hundred words, it has no useful information for me. What Date and Time exactly, what position of the boat, where is the TaskForce-icon.
Have you tried to find this TaskForce in the Campaign-files? The GWX is the original GWX?


I can only shoot a round into the blue heaven here...


BTW, to find 'Kameraden' with the same problems a SearchMashine may help. I would start with something like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=GWX+TaskForce+site:subsim.com
Hey, I could record you one of my many interception attempts? Would that give you enough info? I Just don't know how to upload it here, I guess i could make a youtube link.

[propbeanie]

Now fellers, this is one of those situations where I do believe the original Campaign author (BBW) is having a little fun with y'all... lol - Look in the scripted layer, and you will see a small group that leaves Liverpool, and takes the long-way-round to Southend-On-Sea for the Thames estuary and probably London. This particular group is a grouping of merchant vessels (hence the 8 knots). However, since an Isle Trawler is listed as "Leader", it does show as a Task Force. That is the vagaries of the game. Merchant as Leader, makes it a convoy, even it it is 12 King Georg V BB and a half-dozen Illustrious CV, it will still be a convoy. So a warship as Leader, and you have a Task Force... :roll:

Now, as to you fellows passing by and NOT sinking perfectly valid targets, contrary to BdU instructions, and you can expect to be relieved of command upon RTB. Maybe even the possibility of being sent to the Eastern Front, when it opens...

[Jeff-Groves]

:har: How sneaky of the GWX Team!
You know to date? NOT a single person has found ALL the hidden stuff!

Call them Easter Eggs or whatever. I know of 3 that not even GWX High Command knows of!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Now fellers, this is one of those situations where I do believe the original Campaign author (BBW) is having a little fun with y'all... lol - Look in the scripted layer, and you will see a small group that leaves Liverpool, and takes the long-way-round to Southend-On-Sea for the Thames estuary and probably London. This particular group is a grouping of merchant vessels (hence the 8 knots). However, since an Isle Trawler is listed as "Leader", it does show as a Task Force. That is the vagaries of the game. Merchant as Leader, makes it a convoy, even it it is 12 King Georg V BB and a half-dozen Illustrious CV, it will still be a convoy. So a warship as Leader, and you have a Task Force... :roll:

Now, as to you fellows passing by and NOT sinking perfectly valid targets, contrary to BdU instructions, and you can expect to be relieved of command upon RTB. Maybe even the possibility of being sent to the Eastern Front, when it opens...




All U-boat captains having been noted for reporting 'ghost task forces' are hereby ordered to set course for grid square AB67 immediately.



All U-boat captains having been determined to fail to fire on merchant vessels will be relieved of command and court marshalled.

Be more aggressive.

BdU.

[Steve_i400]

Alright everyone, here is the video of me trying to intercept the "ghost taskforce" Date is 27th of April 1940. These are the taskforces I was talking about, they are very common around this time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2NOcExdPkw
I hope the link works....

[Hooston]

This particular group is a grouping of merchant vessels (hence the 8 knots). However, since an Isle Trawler is listed as "Leader", it does show as a Task Force.


The Rime of the Ghost Task Force



And I had done a hellish thing,

And it would work 'em woe:

For all averred, in command I preferred

A lowly fisher fellow.

Ah wretch! said they, he won't know the way,

A lowly fisher fellow!


...etc etc



They're doomed. Doomed I tell thee. To Hell (i.e. Southend) with them all.

[propbeanie]

Well Steve_i400, I should have said the RND layer, not the SCR... What you are "seeing" (on the NavMap, not on the bridge) is probably this group:

https://i.imgur.com/r4RnApW.jpg

That is just west of Liverpool. Notice the 2x Isle Trawlers as "Leader Entry". Notice also that there is the chance at more. You also would have a minimum of 3 random freighters, as well as a chance at more.

Here is the grab of the scene just before the grouping "disappears on you:

https://i.imgur.com/p9uui4S.jpg

You do have TC going, and it is night. The weather is an unknown factor in your vid. I cannot quite see your distance measurements with the compass... but here is that area in another Mission Editor grab:

https://i.imgur.com/sqTUG5d.jpg

Notice here in the "Properties" that the grouping has a 75% chance of spawning every 129 hours (5.375 days). It also has a 10% chance of generating a Contact Report every 150 minutes (2.5 hours). You would think that would mean once every 25 hours, but alas, the game doesn't work like that. You are hitting several reports in a row apparently, then nothing... There are other similar groups also, running similar routes in various time frames. Now, the TC seems a pinch high for hunting, and who knows how far behind you are by the time you are getting the Contact Reports. The group might already be by you. Lastly, depending upon the time frame, they might have radar since they have DD in the grouping, and you are rather easy to "dodge"... But definitely not a Task Force. :salute:

[Hebe Vollmaus]

Fine.
propbeanie has been nicely shown, once again, what group is discussed here. :yeah:
A TaskForce which is a TaskForce which is not a TaskForce.
That should be clear now.

Well, the group on my GWX v3.0 Gold is named "English_Convoy2".

Why it disappears then?
It disappears because this specific Leader-entry of the group is Class-spezified (Class=MSTrawler) and this Class is not there at this time (April 27 1940). It will introduced first on 19410426 as seen in Roster.
What i have written in post#8 is the End of the story. This here is the Beginning. It will häppen on both ends.
For the scripted campaign (SCR) this may not relevant. But for the random campaign (RND) it is essential and misleads to some bad quirks.

Even this group is introduced by GWX - this group still does not exist in original SH3 v1.4b, the underlying reason why it disappears is a SH3 quirk and is already shown in the original SH3 Campaign_RND.mis for example in "RndGroup 82". We all must be happy that the game will not crash here.

What is the "fix" then? :doh:
There are several possibilities to go around this quirk:
o do not use GWX
o delete the entire group
o delete - or comment out - the Class= entry, Make sure the remaining Type= still exist at that time
o use a Leader that still exist at that time
o use another LeaderNumber
o maybe more...


BTW, my actual mySH3-TooL will find this crap.
Read the docu.

[RndGroup 1];GroupName=English_Convoy2;Category=0;CommandEntry =0;Long=-388600.000000;Lat=6403000.000000;Height=0.000000;D elayMin=60;DelayMinInterv=7740;SpawnProbability=75 ;RandStartRadius=0.000000;ReportPosMin=150;ReportP osProbability=60;Heading=328.583282;Speed=8.000000 ;ColumnsNo=2;Spacing=900;DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true ;CurrentInstanceID=0;GameEntryDate=19400115;GameEn tryTime=0;GameExitDate=19430510;GameExitTime=0;Nex tWP=0;;
[RndGroup 1.RndUnit 1];Class=MSTrawler;Type=0;Origin=British;Side=0;Carg oExt=-1;CargoInt=-1;CfgDate=19390101;No=2;Escort=false;SpawnProbabil ity=100;CrewRating=2;;
--CHECK-- ME GameEntryDate/GameExitDate vs. Roster ==>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __19410426______________________________---ok---

This code is extracted and renumbered for simplification.



HTH

[Kpt. Lehmann]

.....There are several possibilities to go around this quirk:
o do not use GWX



I'm going to shave your eyebrows when you go to sleep. :o:D

[propbeanie]

What you are saying then Hebe, is that the database of the game tracks the Group fine, but cannot "spawn" the Group since the Leader cannot spawn, correct??... the "easy" fix then is to change the Leader unit, and make the Isle trawlers a percentage call for later in the game's timeframe.

So riddle me this then Hebe, if a ship is NOT the leader, will it cause trouble when the group attempts to spawn, if prior to the ship's "existence"? SH4 does not do this. It just spawns the ship... it might be "naked" without a skin, but it spawns... :salute:

[Hebe Vollmaus]

What you are saying then Hebe, is that the database of the game tracks the Group fine, but cannot "spawn" the Group since the Leader cannot spawn, correct??... the "easy" fix then is to change the Leader unit, and make the Isle trawlers a percentage call for later in the game's timeframe.
Correct - yes.
But what may be easy in the first place can be a month later a not that good idea, you know. In this special case here i would change the Leader into a chargo to get rid of the TaskForce-icon. Spawnproblem solved also at the same time.
In general one must get the cause of the existence of such a group when it comes to change its Timeframe (GameEntry- ExitDates) in the Campaign-file.
I think some of the groups are not there for fun only, or made for a specific time-scale. For example one group for one year. Keyword Loadout.
It may also be easy, to change the Roster-Dates (AppearanceDate DisappearanceDate) with the same consequence. In SH3 you drive a screw in one area, and an unwanted result will pop up one month later.


So riddle me this then Hebe, if a ship is NOT the leader, will it cause trouble when the group attempts to spawn, if prior to the ship's "existence"? SH4 does not do this. It just spawns the ship... it might be "naked" without a skin, but it spawns... :salute:Looks like SH4 is different in some more things.
Also Yes here. But i would not use the word 'trouble'. If a Unit in RND is not the Leader in a group, the group will simply spawn without this unit. The unit will spawn when the time is right, when the unit is build or "Commissioned".


Greetings.

[Jeff-Groves]

Oh My! Seems being 'Correct' has now entered SH Games.
So now We must follow "Woke" rules?

Then I guess We should rid the Games of ANY NON-PROPER things just because some people don't LIKE that!
Freaking Cry Babies!

Congratulations on your movement. I'll be on my way and no longer be around these parts.

[bstanko6]

Radio reports in SH are instantaneous. Which means that at the precise time a plane spots them, you get the precise direction and speed of the target at that precise moment.

Task forces are fast! Really fast! So most likely they slowed down while turning and such at the moment you received the report.

So while the report was correct at the time, they most likely kicked themselves into full gear shortly after. Good luck!