Closed beta starting soon!

[Artur Salwarowski]

Dear Subsim community,


The time to release the early access version of Destroyer draws near. As you know very well, we are making this game for genuine fans of (anti-)submarine warfare, and it is not an overstatement to say that we value and trust your opinion more than our own. Therefore, we would like to ask those of you who would like to participate in a closed beta to send an email to destroyer@ironwolfstudio.com. Those of you who do so will receive access to the beta and will be asked to fill in a feedback form so that we know how to best adjust the game to your preferences.

We will be starting the beta shortly, as soon as we manage to implement a few essential 'quality of life' improvements (such as the ability to save your games). If all goes well, we will be able to start the beta next week.

If you have any questions, suggestions, or anything else that you would like to let us know about, then please do so here. Once the beta starts, we will be very happy to receive feedback through the online form that you will receive access to together with the beta.

[Aktungbby]

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Furia]

I am clearly interested. E-mail sent!:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[dsawan]

Interested too. email sent

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to let you know that we have received your emails and that we will be contacting you very soon about the beta. We were supposed to start last week, but there has been so much going on that we had to move it to this week instead.

We are currently finishing most of we wanted to get ready for you for the beta, and we are currently looking at Wednesday the 8th of September as the starting date.

We hope that you will enjoy the beta in spite of the delay and we are very much looking forward to your feedback once it goes hot.

Thank you very much for the response and we will definitely keep you posted regarding any and all developments.

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hi,

I just wanted to check whether everything is working fine for you and if you have any first impressions.

It would be best if we could get at least some early balancing feedback before the 12th of September, because after that the EA version will be released to influencers and the press.

Even more importantly, we would really appreciate the above feedback before the 19th of September, which would leave us a week to digest your feedback and introduce the necessary changes before the EA release happening on September the 28th.

Thank you very much once again for your participation.

[Halcyon]

Hi Artur,

I had enough time this morning to run through the new tutorial and start a single small battle.
I'll have more time to test in-depth later, but here are my initial impressions and findings:


- In the "Single Battle" screen, the word "Convoy" is duplicated (i.e. for Small Battle, Convoy = 9 ships and also Convoy = 2 ships). I'm assuming the 2nd instance of "Convoy" is really supposed to be "U-boat"

- The tutorial got stuck for me on the "snap the spotlight to the periscope feather" part. By the time I had read all the tutorial text and pressed the spotlight button, the u-boat was behind me but shortly after it appeared on the opposite side of the destroyer (I guess it was doing circles?). After restarting the tutorial and quickly going through all the confirmation text boxes, it worked normally. If possible, it might be beneficial to pause the sim between instructions to give the player time to read the boxes and interact with what they're being asked to push or type in

- Part of the tutorial says you can click on a "?" button next to the three auto-crew options in the settings, but I couldn't see anything next to those check boxes

- The number keys appear to change stations, but they lose that functionality if you interact with a part of the UI directly, like grabbing the ship wheel with your mouse to change the rudder. Only by pressing W,A,S, or D to bring up that mini-UI window in the lower left was I able to continue using the number keys to cycle through stations

- Having to hit the "Enter" key after using the W,A,S, or D keys to change rudder/speed isn't really friendly to the hand or wrist. Generally you shouldn't make the user have to move their hand much if you want them to use the number keys to change stations and W,A,S,D to manipulate course and speed. I'm assuming we'll get to change the keybinds later?

- Having the time, course, and speed info in the lower left across multiple stations is great, but it's missing Gun Director, Lookouts, and External View stations

- There's no way to turn off motion blur when looking around the stations. This caused my game to lag a bit if you move the camera around too quickly

- The sound of the printer in the sonar/TRR screens is a little loud. Being able to turn down that specific sound effect would be good

- The top of the screen is cut off in an ultra-wide resolution (my native resolution is 2560 x 1080), which obscures parts of important tools like the compass in the upper left of the bridge station. Switching to a 1920 x 1080 resolution fixes that, but leaves black bars on the left and right of the screen

- Switching from true/relative bearings on the sonar station doesn't make either of the compass discs rotate. They're both stuck with 000 being at the top regardless. If I remember right in the older demo, one of them would rotate to show true north.

- The U-boat still seems to be able to dive/surface too quickly. I was chasing a submerged U-boat for a while until he surfaced. I was only able to fire my guns 2 times before he was already diving again


I'll add more feedback as I get to play more.

[Furia]

Hi Artur,
I have installed it yesterday and had time to run it 3 times so far.

I plan to play more hours this weekend and then I will send you a detailled report as requested

[Onkel Neal]

Planned Release Date: September 28, 2022 Sign up here for Early Access (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1272010/Destroyer_The_UBoat_Hunter/)

Been playing the beta build... yes. Yes.:Kaleun_Salivating: I've put in 2000 hours as a U-boat commander trying to outsmart the escorts, now it's the other way around.

Will be releasing a preview video sometime next week, when the dev team gives me the greenlight.

Do you remember Destroyer Command? Did you enjoy Greyhound? Have you watched The Enemy Below? I think you're gonna love this one. :shucks:


https://youtu.be/Uq9BWgYd5ls

[Skybird]

Pah, its just an ugrade... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GopWlcP3M2c

[Onkel Neal]

"The board game where you match wits with a computer".

Haha, how did I miss that one?

[Sunnydas1]

September 28, 2022. Destroyer: the U-Boat Hunter is an interactive war thriller which seamlessly blends realistic WW2 anti-submarine warfare simulation with immersive tactical gameplay. Take command of a Fletcher-class destroyer and lead your escort group against German U-boats in the Battle of the Atlantic!












krnt.run (https://krnl.run/)
indigocard.ltd (https://indigocard.ltd/)

[Aktungbby]

Sunnydas¹!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Halcyon]

More feedback:

- I hit a u-boat with depth charges, and my lookout reported an oil slick, but the sub was still alive and operational. I'm no expert, but if the sub is leaking oil that means it has a hole in it. I don't see how it can remain at 100% combat effectiveness if there's oil floating on the surface

- was the submerged speed changed for u-boats? They still seem like they're going too fast and are able to dodge a depth charge drop almost every single time. It doesn't matter if I go at them head on or if I plan my approach and try to come at them from their stern. They will make a hard turn and I can never get the charges to land exactly on him (except for one time, which I already explained above...oil slick but no kill)

- to add on to the last point, my escorts also have the same trouble sinking a u-boat. I've heard them make depth charge run after run with the same results I usually have, which is not hitting the target or getting a report of oil and debris but the target isn't sunk. Are the u-boats invincible in this closed-beta build?

- the sonar indicator will go in the opposite direction of what you've set the circular arrow button on the right to be. I find I have to click that button twice to get the indicator to match the direction of what the button shows if you leave the sonar screen and come back, especially after contact has been lost (usually during a depth charge drop)

- I've seen the periscope briefly using the lookout station, but then it suddenly disappears even though the automated lookout is still calling out they can see a periscope feather. I point right at the bearing with binocs but still can't see it, even after shooting star shells. It seems to be a graphical glitch

- If you load starshells, sometimes you can't unload them or switch back to normal shells after firing a starshell burst

- Sometimes you can't unclick the "radar track" button for the gun if you previously clicked it but the sub submerged and you lost the track. This results in the player unable to manually rotate the gun turret

- When tracking a sub and you lose contact, if there is another sub nearby that an escort is tracking and giving you bearings for, that new sub will automatically switch to be the new target even though you're still maneuvering and trying to find the original target. This can result in the sonar snapping to the new target and making it harder to find where the cursor originally was to attempt to switch back to the old target to track it using the sonar

In all, combined with my first feedback report, I don't think this closed-beta build is ready for an early access release, especially if the u-boats are somehow set to be invulnerable.

[Onkel Neal]

That's good feedback :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

More feedback:

- I hit a u-boat with depth charges, and my lookout reported an oil slick, but the sub was still alive and operational. I'm no expert, but if the sub is leaking oil that means it has a hole in it. I don't see how it can remain at 100% combat effectiveness if there's oil floating on the surface
[ ]

Historically, it was not unusual for a submarine to have a fuel leak, especially u-boats, as they used their ballast tanks as fuel tanks at times. The leak could be caused by damage, shipyard sabotage, or simply wear and tear. Only takes a small leak to leave a trail marking the boat's position.


- was the submerged speed changed for u-boats? They still seem like they're going too fast and are able to dodge a depth charge drop almost every single time. It doesn't matter if I go at them head on or if I plan my approach and try to come at them from their stern. They will make a hard turn and I can never get the charges to land exactly on him (except for one time, which I already explained above...oil slick but no kill)

They are tricky, and as a player, we have to trust the devs that their U-boat AI is legit. U-boats had severe limitations once submerged. But if the game limits the u-boats too much, it's not a challenge for the player. I know with Wolfpack, it's crucial to get this right.



- If you load starshells, sometimes you can't unload them or switch back to normal shells after firing a starshell burst

- Sometimes you can't unclick the "radar track" button for the gun if you previously clicked it but the sub submerged and you lost the track. This results in the player unable to manually rotate the gun turret

Same here. Looks like an area they will need to address. I also have hell when I am in Tactical and I go to change course or speed, half the time I end up reassigning Antler and Cat! The devs probably know this, but you are right to point it out.

- When tracking a sub and you lose contact, if there is another sub nearby that an escort is tracking and giving you bearings for, that new sub will automatically switch to be the new target even though you're still maneuvering and trying to find the original target. This can result in the sonar snapping to the new target and making it harder to find where the cursor originally was to attempt to switch back to the old target to track it using the sonar

Yes, it does get confusing, I'm thinking it would be great to have the DRT note the contact if it changes.

Also, would love to have the DRT retain the last one or two markings when switching from 1000 to 100.

In all, combined with my first feedback report, I don't think this closed-beta build is ready for an early access release, especially if the u-boats are somehow set to be invulnerable.

I think the version they release as EA will be improved over this closed beta version. :up:
Also, the u-boats in the game always give away their position by being on the surface at the beginning of the game. Have you played a mission yet where they are quietly submerged and they torpedo a ship before you know they are there? Sounds like that should happen at the Hard difficulty setting... you get no indication other than possible hydrophone contact or scope visual detection -- IF you happen to be in the right place.

Thanks for the input, glad our notes compare.

[Sniper450]

- The tutorial got stuck for me on the "snap the spotlight to the periscope feather" part. By the time I had read all the tutorial text and pressed the spotlight button, the u-boat was behind me but shortly after it appeared on the opposite side of the destroyer (I guess it was doing circles?). After restarting the tutorial and quickly going through all the confirmation text boxes, it worked normally. If possible, it might be beneficial to pause the sim between instructions to give the player time to read the boxes and interact with what they're being asked to push or type in

-

100% agree with this. It feels like a race to get through the text boxes. Auto Pausing until the it’s checked would be beneficial.

[Artur Salwarowski]

I would like to thank everybody for their insightful feedback. Yes, we are aware that at this point, there are a lot of little things that require polishing. This is because everything is still very fresh, and we are very happy that we have managed to get it all to work - now we are going to gather a lot of feedback, take a deep breath, and start ironing out all the creases. We would also like to introduce a couple of new things, but right now, fixing bugs and refining all the outstanding little bits is our main focus.

I've been wondering about how to prioritize all of this. Do you think we could come up with a list together, so that we could have a clear picture of which bugs and problems the community sees as the most pressing and urgent? We could then attack those issues head-on, and not worry if we are focusing on the things or not. What o you think?

[Onkel Neal]

Hi Artur,

- In the "Single Battle" screen, the word "Convoy" is duplicated (i.e. for Small Battle, Convoy = 9 ships and also Convoy = 2 ships). I'm assuming the 2nd instance of "Convoy" is really supposed to be "U-boat"

I was thinking maybe it meant Escorts = 2



- Having to hit the "Enter" key after using the W,A,S, or D keys to change rudder/speed isn't really friendly to the hand or wrist. Generally you shouldn't make the user have to move their hand much if you want them to use the number keys to change stations and W,A,S,D to manipulate course and speed. I'm assuming we'll get to change the keybinds later?

Agreed, keybinds would be great, and hotkeys for the various stations even better. Bridge, Sonar, Combat, Gun, Lookouts, external, as F1, F2, F3 etc

- Having the time, course, and speed info in the lower left across multiple stations is great, but it's missing Gun Director, Lookouts, and External View stations

Agreed.



- Switching from true/relative bearings on the sonar station doesn't make either of the compass discs rotate. They're both stuck with 000 being at the top regardless. If I remember right in the older demo, one of them would rotate to show true north.

Confused me too.

[mapuc]

I was thinking maybe it meant Escorts = 2





Agreed, keybinds would be great, and hotkeys for the various stations even better. Bridge, Sonar, Combat, Gun, Lookouts, external, as F1, F2, F3 etc



Agreed.



.

Confused me too.

A response to this W-A-S-D
Couldn't they make it so that players can use ordinary Steering Wheel..

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

You can use the steering wheel and telegraph on the Bridge. I just never go there, too busy trying to pin down those wily U-Boat commanders! :D

[mapuc]

You can use the steering wheel and telegraph on the Bridge. I just never go there, too busy trying to pin down those wily U-Boat commanders! :D

It was yours and this one

- Having to hit the "Enter" key after using the W,A,S, or D keys to change rudder/speed isn't really friendly to the hand or wrist. Generally you shouldn't make the user have to move their hand much if you want them to use the number keys to change stations and W,A,S,D to manipulate course and speed. I'm assuming we'll get to change the keybinds later?

I answered..
Here a steering wheel could be handy to steer the boat and then use of some joystik/pedal to set speed.

Markus

[Halcyon]

Also, would love to have the DRT retain the last one or two markings when switching from 1000 to 100.


This would be a great feature. The last two marks would let the player still discern a course and speed before waiting for the next mark right before rapid maneuvers.

And about W,A,S,D, personally I would like the ability to move the ship wheel using A and D (instead of click and hold dragging) and W and S to make speed changes without having to confirm them. Sometimes I like doing direct control during the final moments right before a drop and finding the click spot for the wheel, waiting for it to highlight green, and then holding and dragging is sometimes tedious.


I've been wondering about how to prioritize all of this. Do you think we could come up with a list together, so that we could have a clear picture of which bugs and problems the community sees as the most pressing and urgent? We could then attack those issues head-on, and not worry if we are focusing on the things or not. What o you think?

You could use Trello and have people vote on marked issues, or go a step further and have a shared Google excel sheet between the developers and the closed-beta testers so we can freely add issues and check on the progress of existing ones.

[Furia]

I have played around 6 hours so far in (4 one hour and 1 time a 2 hours scenario)

I have already sent my feedback form as requested.
From what I have read here, the developers are also encouraging us to provide feedback here so I will share it here as well.

I have been Betat tester in a number of simulations and games, Dangerous Waters among others and one thing I have learned is that the most useful support to provide to the developement team besides effectively identifying busg is "constructive criticism".

So since I wish the very best for this tittle and I am excited to finally having a "modern software" Destroyer Simulator :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up: I am going to share here my feedback as constructive criticism and I have to say that other than the points mentioned below, the product is great. Super stable (0 crashes and excellent performance) easy to install and anyone with Naval Sim experience would understand how to operate it easily although I hope they develop a manual at some point.

Those of you interested in my feedback, open the spoiler. It is a long text.
While the game shows the development team has studied in great details the subject, the actual game provides more a "dogfight sandbox" than a submarine hunting experience.
There is no time to manage defensive deployments or strategy, the submarines zero on the convoy at flank speed from minute one. The submarine behavior is unrealistic (all time flank speed, awesome torpedoes that never fail and sink ships at first impact, submarines that despite being hit by the 5 inch guns continue attacking ant flank speed and changing depth like an Akula Class...even with a destroyer closing fast at 500 yards the sub goes periscope depth, fires and never misses and in some cases manages to evade the attack)
The game details are really nice, the interface/stations are awesome and user friendly but as a veteran sub-hunter player from Destroyer Command or Dangerous Waters I was looking more into the strategy, search patters, defensive tactics and some combat after that. Probably the actual game play may attract young players but sadly for people like me after playing one hour I am already tired and demotivated. On the 1 hour scenario we get up to 5 enemy kamikaze subs that attack a convoy defended just by a destroyer and a corvette and for a few minutes an airplane. An unwinnable scenario. I have managed to sink up to 2 subs on one of these but on the meantime the other 3 subs rain havoc on the convoy.
The option for the "custom battle" does not work so far. Maybe this may help to define a more credible scenario but you need to give the option to place the sub farther away so the escorts have time to maneuver and deploy and to engage the sub farther away from the convoy. The sub AI logic although much better now than on early demos, still needs A LOT of work.
On this actual Beta sometimes I had 3 escort ships fighting 3 different subs just below the convoy in what it looked like a fur-ball.
The lookouts should warn much earlier about possible collisions, actually when they inform you about close merchants, you are about to collide and with almost no time for reaction.
The airplane call out ETA 15 minutes but shortly after it calls in station ready for tasking.

In one of the missions, the visibility was extremely low, I would say less than 300 meters, however that was not a problem for the subs to zero on the convoy at flank speed and sink ships with laser precision using the periscope while I could not even see the merchants.
One of the things I miss most is the possibility of using hydrophones. Obviously in the actual game dynamic there is not much "search" to do since you are hooked to the sub from minute 1. I would like to be able to use hydrophones.
Sometimes while on the bridge the horizon is shaking as if you are driving in a road with some bumps instead riding in a ship.
I do miss more "environmental" sounds like wind, change of ship noises when speeding up, some alarms like battle stations or collision alert...
The guns and depth charges sound weird and the guns even when hitting the sub appears to have not much effect. I would like to have the chance of using the 40mm anti aircraft mounts when close to the sub

All in all I think the game has great potential and I believe the development team has done an awesome job in documenting and replicating a Fletcher Class destroyer. The interfaces/stations are great. However I am afraid this is not a game where the usual hardcore (Submarine or Destroyer Command players) will enjoy for long but they may get frustrated or bored after a few hours due to the behavior of the AI subs and the kind of game-play that this generates and this concerns me because I have great expectations for this title but the actual "sub hunt" we can do, does not correspond with my expectations of how a sub should behave or how the game-play should develop. Maybe there are players that like this "dogfight fur-ball style"
I would be great if you could also add a way to additionally incorporate a game mode that has a more historical "tempo" that allows longer search and hunt experiences and that have more credible AI submarines that when detected and attack do not continue kamikaze towards the convoy. As you know, in the real live the actual main task of the destroyer was to keep the subs away from the convoy by forcing them to submerge or driving them away. Here I have only managed to do this one after inflicting sever damage to one sub including generating an oil slick, but usually submarines simply ignore the destroyer un unless they are sunk they manage to eliminate several merchants easily.
Great ship, great stations, awesome possibilities. Just need a realistic sub behavior and game-play and then you have a winner.
In any case thanks for bringing the Destroyers back to life.
I wish you all the best and success with the game.

[Halcyon]

While the game shows the development team has studied in great details the subject, the actual game provides more a "dogfight sandbox" than a submarine hunting experience.
There is no time to manage defensive deployments or strategy, the submarines zero on the convoy at flank speed from minute one. The submarine behavior is unrealistic (all time flank speed, awesome torpedoes that never fail and sink ships at first impact, submarines that despite being hit by the 5 inch guns continue attacking ant flank speed and changing depth like an Akula Class...even with a destroyer closing fast at 500 yards the sub goes periscope depth, fires and never misses and in some cases manages to evade the attack)
The game details are really nice, the interface/stations are awesome and user friendly but as a veteran sub-hunter player from Destroyer Command or Dangerous Waters I was looking more into the strategy, search patters, defensive tactics and some combat after that. Probably the actual game play may attract young players but sadly for people like me after playing one hour I am already tired and demotivated. On the 1 hour scenario we get up to 5 enemy kamikaze subs that attack a convoy defended just by a destroyer and a corvette and for a few minutes an airplane. An unwinnable scenario. I have managed to sink up to 2 subs on one of these but on the meantime the other 3 subs rain havoc on the convoy.
The option for the "custom battle" does not work so far. Maybe this may help to define a more credible scenario but you need to give the option to place the sub farther away so the escorts have time to maneuver and deploy and to engage the sub farther away from the convoy. The sub AI logic although much better now than on early demos, still needs A LOT of work.
On this actual Beta sometimes I had 3 escort ships fighting 3 different subs just below the convoy in what it looked like a fur-ball.
The lookouts should warn much earlier about possible collisions, actually when they inform you about close merchants, you are about to collide and with almost no time for reaction.
The airplane call out ETA 15 minutes but shortly after it calls in station ready for tasking.

In one of the missions, the visibility was extremely low, I would say less than 300 meters, however that was not a problem for the subs to zero on the convoy at flank speed and sink ships with laser precision using the periscope while I could not even see the merchants.
One of the things I miss most is the possibility of using hydrophones. Obviously in the actual game dynamic there is not much "search" to do since you are hooked to the sub from minute 1. I would like to be able to use hydrophones.
Sometimes while on the bridge the horizon is shaking as if you are driving in a road with some bumps instead riding in a ship.
I do miss more "environmental" sounds like wind, change of ship noises when speeding up, some alarms like battle stations or collision alert...
The guns and depth charges sound weird and the guns even when hitting the sub appears to have not much effect. I would like to have the chance of using the 40mm anti aircraft mounts when close to the sub

All in all I think the game has great potential and I believe the development team has done an awesome job in documenting and replicating a Fletcher Class destroyer. The interfaces/stations are great. However I am afraid this is not a game where the usual hardcore (Submarine or Destroyer Command players) will enjoy for long but they may get frustrated or bored after a few hours due to the behavior of the AI subs and the kind of game-play that this generates and this concerns me because I have great expectations for this title but the actual "sub hunt" we can do, does not correspond with my expectations of how a sub should behave or how the game-play should develop. Maybe there are players that like this "dogfight fur-ball style"
I would be great if you could also add a way to additionally incorporate a game mode that has a more historical "tempo" that allows longer search and hunt experiences and that have more credible AI submarines that when detected and attack do not continue kamikaze towards the convoy. As you know, in the real live the actual main task of the destroyer was to keep the subs away from the convoy by forcing them to submerge or driving them away. Here I have only managed to do this one after inflicting sever damage to one sub including generating an oil slick, but usually submarines simply ignore the destroyer un unless they are sunk they manage to eliminate several merchants easily.
Great ship, great stations, awesome possibilities. Just need a realistic sub behavior and game-play and then you have a winner.
In any case thanks for bringing the Destroyers back to life.
I wish you all the best and success with the game.

I have to agree with the majority of this.

I also had missions where the fog was so thick I couldn't see 50 yards in front of my ship, but the subs have no visibility limitations regardless of the weather setting.
Their torpedoes also, as mentioned, have no % chance to be a dud. They always explode and I've never seen one miss.

I have also visually zeroed in on a periscope above the water, dropped my shallow pattern, and the sub is still shooting and firing at merchants while I'm circling around to pick him back up on sonar.

The 5" guns are also somewhat bugged. I can see the rounds zero in on the dot reticle, but after they "hit" the u-boat, there are 5 separate plumes of water that are stretched out from 20 yards in front of the u-boat to 20 yards behind it, as if my guns were all aiming at different points. I don't see them all hit on the convergence point, which is frustrating because I'm shooting a sub at 800 yards full broadside but my gunners are somehow missing both ahead and behind the target.

A couple times I've seen a large explosion and black smoke originate at the center of the u-boat, indicating a critical hit, but this was after 4-5 volleys at less then 1,000 yards.
The 5" gun accuracy just isn't there, and they act more like a deterrent to force the sub under than a weapon that can reliably sink the u-boat.

I've also noticed that the air cover says ETA 15 min but they're ready just a minute after that, and sometimes I never get air cover. Their support seems to be completely random.

[Rebel]

in knowing how the dd does what it does will help me be a better sub capt:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Onkel Neal]

I agree with you, good feedback, that should be really useful for the devs. :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

I have played around 6 hours so far in (4 one hour and 1 time a 2 hours scenario)

The submarine behavior is unrealistic (all time flank speed, awesome torpedoes that never fail and sink ships at first impact, submarines that despite being hit by the 5 inch guns continue attacking at flank speed and changing depth like an Akula Class...even with a destroyer closing fast at 500 yards the sub goes periscope depth, fires and never misses and in some cases manages to evade the attack)


Yeah, I had the same questions. U-boats seem pretty quick and nimble. I understand that there may need to be tweaks to keep the game balanced. But players do need to feel they subs are playing by the rules.

Do the AI subs have the same limitations as the real ones? Are these limitations scaled for a three hour game (as they are in Wolfpack). How long is an hour of the game measured against real life? For example, a U-Boat could sprint at 6 knots or so for 45 mins. What should I expect this performance to be in the game?

Is it necessary for AI u-boats to raise their scope for ~30 seconds to prepare for a torpedo launch? I would think so.





The lookouts should warn much earlier about possible collisions, actually when they inform you about close merchants, you are about to collide and with almost no time for reaction.

Haha, yeah, 30 seconds would be nice ;)




One of the things I miss most is the possibility of using hydrophones. Obviously in the actual game dynamic there is not much "search" to do since you are hooked to the sub from minute 1. I would like to be able to use hydrophones.

I'm assuming the hydrophones are part of th3e AI sonar operator's call outs, such as when he says, "Strong propeller noises", that also tells me the u-boat is sprinting.




Sometimes while on the bridge the horizon is shaking as if you are driving in a road with some bumps instead riding in a ship.
I do miss more "environmental" sounds like wind, change of ship noises when speeding up, some alarms like battle stations or collision alert...

Yeah, a little more of that.



All in all I think the game has great potential and I believe the development team has done an awesome job in documenting and replicating a Fletcher Class destroyer. The interfaces/stations are great. However I am afraid this is not a game where the usual hardcore (Submarine or Destroyer Command players) will enjoy for long but they may get frustrated or bored after a few hours due to the behavior of the AI subs and the kind of game-play that this generates and this concerns me because I have great expectations for this title but the actual "sub hunt" we can do, does not correspond with my expectations of how a sub should behave or how the game-play should develop. Maybe there are players that like this "dogfight fur-ball style"

I would be great if you could also add a way to additionally incorporate a game mode that has a more historical "tempo" that allows longer search and hunt experiences and that have more credible AI submarines that when detected and attack do not continue kamikaze towards the convoy. As you know, in the real live the actual main task of the destroyer was to keep the subs away from the convoy by forcing them to submerge or driving them away. Here I have only managed to do this one after inflicting sever damage to one sub including generating an oil slick, but usually submarines simply ignore the destroyer un unless they are sunk they manage to eliminate several merchants easily.
Great ship, great stations, awesome possibilities. Just need a realistic sub behavior and game-play and then you have a winner.
In any case thanks for bringing the Destroyers back to life.
I wish you all the best and success with the game.


That makes sense. We have to keep in mind, the game needs to appeal to a wide range of players to be successful. I think there should be exactly the type of missions optional as you described. Like a long-game AI option.

It might take 12 hours to complete the mission (guard against attack, react to attack, prosecute ASW, continue to tie sub down with more ASW, direct other DDs, allow the convoy to escape, destroy sub and/or when convoy is 30 km away, return to convoy.) but that's a great use of the Save Game feature. :yeah: Imagine starting a game as the sun is going down, no radar contacts or maybe only one, but other than that, it's up to you to guess where the u-boats will approach. Make patrol loops, slow and search, then haul ass (don't want to be an easy target). React to an attack, work through the night, saving every couple hours, picking up where you left off every IRL day. Finally, the game sub starts coming up and you're safe! Epic battle that would give you a week of playing in real time. :D

[Rickster1]

Hi, i got the details to join the beta but have had covid so behind the 8 ball, where do you input the code, obviously iv had steam for years but i cannot work out where to input the code, or even if the beta is still playable. Thanks

[Halcyon]

Hi, i got the details to join the beta but have had covid so behind the 8 ball, where do you input the code, obviously iv had steam for years but i cannot work out where to input the code, or even if the beta is still playable. Thanks

Games > Activate a product on steam

[Halcyon]

There is something really wrong with the victory conditions. I was running a small battle, had sunk 2 out of 3 u-boats and was converging on the 3rd with Antler and air support.

My lookout called a torpedo wake, and suddenly I get a cinematic of a u-boat shooting a torpedo and a merchant ship getting hit, followed by end of mission and the attached score screen.

How can the mission grade be "F" if I sank two u-boats and only one merchant was sunk?
Previous missions I've had up to three merchants sunk and the mission never ended.

I think the code for the scoring system has a bug in it, especially since the score screen says zero merchants were sunk.

*edit*
The game is completely frozen on this score screen. I can still bring up the ship wheel and speed windows with A,D/S,W, but no confirmation button or "X" to click to get rid of the score screen. I can still hear ocean sounds too, but everything else is paused. I had to Alt-F4 to quit the game.

*edit #2*
Another strange thing happened in this play session. I made successful drops on the same u-boat three times, and each time an oil slick appeared. That seems like an awful lot of damage without actually sinking the u-boat.

[Halcyon]

I filled out the feedback form and sent everything I've reported here so far. Again, I think this needs more time in the oven.

[mapuc]

I really like this Beta test period. It means that the product hopefully will be a great game when it's fully released

I like their strait forward report about the game and it's failure.

Markus

[Skoaler]

I sent my request.. Very interesting.. Bout time for an American ship sub sim period .. At least we won our war

[Halcyon]

Bout time for an American ship sub sim period .. At least we won our war

Why even write that last bit?

[Artur Salwarowski]

Once again, I would like to thank everybody for the very insightful feedback. I have read through all of it and the way I see it, apart from fixes and corrections, the biggest task ahead of us is to improve U-boat AI. I am 100% on board with your observations, and I am happy to say that we've got all the necessary tools and procedures implemented - we just need to readjust them to achieve the effect you are after.

As for the AI, the biggest problem that we have had with it was when it was the other way round - whenever we turned U-boat aggression down too much, the game would appear pretty boring. But, as Onkel Neal has remarked, this is a tough thing to get 100% right, and that's also the main reason I have reached out for your help.

The problem here is that I have been playing this game for 2 years now, and it might be that my understanding of pace and intensity might have become blurred. After reading your remarks it occurred to me that I focused way too much on the sense of urgency and constant pressure that I wanted to achieve. It is now apparent that I overdid this, and I am very thankful that you have made this very clear.

In all honesty, I have actually nerfed the U-boats A LOT since the demo. As it appears, however, they need more of that and that is exactly what they are going to get :Kaleun_Wink:

Therefore, the roadmap towards the release seems very clear: while the programming team continue working on the tutorial, save game, and bugs/fixes, I will focus on cranking up certain mechanisms that will make U-boats more reactive and more likely to take the defensive stance. After in-house testing over the weekend, we will update the project so that you can evaluate the changes and let us know whether things have changed for the better.

Please remember, that we are making this game primarily for you - subsim and naval warfare afficionados. This is not supposed to be a frantic, action-oriented game, but if you say it appears as such, then we will do our best to step down the intensity :Kaleun_Salute:

Sounds like a plan?

[Rickster1]

Im know im late to the party but just recovering from covid. I guess what i was looking for was to simulate the reading that ive done on ww2 escorting convoys where it goes as follows ( and its similar but opposite to the game Uboat). The convoy starts out on a tact. map from base with the ability to cut the the escort at any time and to start with its just boring escorting but helped along by time compression then as we are heading to the uboat hunting areas tension picks up, next stage some probing and hopefully battling off the first few attacks then as the time approaches the attacks start, the uboat commanders were a mixed bunch some were good and pressed there attacks some were not and easily beaten off or destroyed and the game needs to reflect that. I think to get some replayability its not about 4 hours oh full on battle its more about some attacks and then a lull whilst the uboats try to get into position. For me its exactly the opposite of uboat except some long lulls on activity. Im not for switch game on choose battle hi intensive action game over. Its only my view offcourse

[mapuc]

An answer to post #34.

Mentioned before-Have different skill settings. going from Novis to expert.

As for the AI, the biggest problem that we have had with it was when it was the other way round - whenever we turned U-boat aggression down too much, the game would appear pretty boring.


Do not change this setting, it could be used in the Novis setting.

When it comes to the Expert setting, then program the game in such a way that the submarine is driven by AI's own Otto Kretschmer.

Idea
Novis-Amateur-Expert

There should be more skill levels between amateur and expert.

Nothing but a crazy idea-which may not be possible since the game is almost ready.

Markus

[Furia]

Please remember, that we are making this game primarily for you - subsim and naval warfare afficionados. This is not supposed to be a frantic, action-oriented game, but if you say it appears as such, then we will do our best to step down the intensity :Kaleun_Salute:

Sounds like a plan?

This is music to my ears and be sure I will support your project as much as I can.

I am really interested in escorts (Destroyers, Destroyers Escorts, frigates and Corvettes) and besides having read all that I could about it I have played countless hours with Destroyer Command and Dangerous Waters.

For a DD player the main characteristic of this subject is the "hunt" and with that I mean the detection and location of the enemy sub. You spend hours trying to figure out where the sub may come from, checking if you have deployed your other escorts properly to cover the convoy flanks.

You spend a lot of time listening to the passive hydrophones since this has more detection range and capabilities to detect the sub on initial contact than the narrow cone of the ASDIC.
Different speed, different water conditions, different capability and range to detect the enemy but this also works for the submarine.
You monitor your radar, listen to your lookouts, if enabled you get some "HUFF/DUFF bearings. Then you manage your convoy Zigzag plan to try to ruin any well planned submarine approach. Depending on the time of the day and visibility you spread your escorts or you order them to keep tight station with the convoy.

A successful convoy defense is not about sinking subs but preventing them from sinking anything.

If I manage to detect a sub in the radar at 10000 yards and I force him to submerge and evade, this sub its out of the combat. He need to wait for my DD to leave the area and then he needs to surface , by then the convoy is too far away for him.

As Neal mentioned, the sub must behave in accordance to "normal expectations" as realistic as possible but of course without being an “easy to predict bot"
The attractive part of the hunt is to try to outsmart the sub captain, anticipate his movements.

In Destroyer Command I have spent long hours searching for the submarines, sometimes maneuvering the convoy in a way that the sub could not engage them.
The most attractive game play was always against human sub captains that knew well our limitations and capacities and maneuver accordingly to destroy the convoy, but we the escort also knew they capabilities. That was the best part of the game.

Like Neal mentioned, the “Save Game" function is probably a great tool to allow us to have a more realistic and attractive scenario.
In Destroyer Command enemy subs went deep when the destroyer was on top, that made killing them extremely difficult, almost an art.
In the actual game the AI sub is staying most of the time shallow and all my kills have been on shallow subs.
Sub captains have a huge bag of tricks to confuse the DD and prevent an effective DC attack.

A scenario like the actual one in the game where you have have up to 5 subs in a one hour battle is too much for my taste. One sub or max 2 should be enough.
A smart sub captain maneuvers his sub undetected into a firing position where he could fire all his bow torpedoes and the first hint the DD captain would have that a sub is around would be the first torpedo explosion :Kaleun_Salute: respect for those captains. But not on my watch :arrgh!:

Destroyer has an AWESOME potential!!!! Just give us the historical immersion of fighting subs commanded by captains that are not far more aggressive or smarter than Otto Krestchmer himself.

Thanks for bringing life to the Destroyer escort simulation !! :Kaleun_Applaud:

[mapuc]

^ After having read the comment above an idea popped up in my head.

You have problem with the subs AI-Here's my idea

Why not remove AI and let a human control the submarine.

Here me thinking at the beginning of the game a player can choose sub or destroyer. (then the skill levels are not needed)

Thereby the skill of the sub will be based on the players skill.

Markus

[Halcyon]

Once again, I would like to thank everybody for the very insightful feedback. I have read through all of it and the way I see it, apart from fixes and corrections, the biggest task ahead of us is to improve U-boat AI. I am 100% on board with your observations, and I am happy to say that we've got all the necessary tools and procedures implemented - we just need to readjust them to achieve the effect you are after.

As for the AI, the biggest problem that we have had with it was when it was the other way round - whenever we turned U-boat aggression down too much, the game would appear pretty boring. But, as Onkel Neal has remarked, this is a tough thing to get 100% right, and that's also the main reason I have reached out for your help.

The problem here is that I have been playing this game for 2 years now, and it might be that my understanding of pace and intensity might have become blurred. After reading your remarks it occurred to me that I focused way too much on the sense of urgency and constant pressure that I wanted to achieve. It is now apparent that I overdid this, and I am very thankful that you have made this very clear.

In all honesty, I have actually nerfed the U-boats A LOT since the demo. As it appears, however, they need more of that and that is exactly what they are going to get :Kaleun_Wink:

Therefore, the roadmap towards the release seems very clear: while the programming team continue working on the tutorial, save game, and bugs/fixes, I will focus on cranking up certain mechanisms that will make U-boats more reactive and more likely to take the defensive stance. After in-house testing over the weekend, we will update the project so that you can evaluate the changes and let us know whether things have changed for the better.

Please remember, that we are making this game primarily for you - subsim and naval warfare afficionados. This is not supposed to be a frantic, action-oriented game, but if you say it appears as such, then we will do our best to step down the intensity :Kaleun_Salute:

Sounds like a plan?

Sounds great! Developers who focus on player feedback are always welcome, instead of pushing their own vision and you're either on board or not.

It's very refreshing to see.

This is music to my ears and be sure I will support your project as much as I can.

I am really interested in escorts (Destroyers, Destroyers Escorts, frigates and Corvettes) and besides having read all that I could about it I have played countless hours with Destroyer Command and Dangerous Waters.

For a DD player the main characteristic of this subject is the "hunt" and with that I mean the detection and location of the enemy sub. You spend hours trying to figure out where the sub may come from, checking if you have deployed your other escorts properly to cover the convoy flanks.

You spend a lot of time listening to the passive hydrophones since this has more detection range and capabilities to detect the sub on initial contact than the narrow cone of the ASDIC.
Different speed, different water conditions, different capability and range to detect the enemy but this also works for the submarine.
You monitor your radar, listen to your lookouts, if enabled you get some "HUFF/DUFF bearings. Then you manage your convoy Zigzag plan to try to ruin any well planned submarine approach. Depending on the time of the day and visibility you spread your escorts or you order them to keep tight station with the convoy.

A successful convoy defense is not about sinking subs but preventing them from sinking anything.

If I manage to detect a sub in the radar at 10000 yards and I force him to submerge and evade, this sub its out of the combat. He need to wait for my DD to leave the area and then he needs to surface , by then the convoy is too far away for him.

As Neal mentioned, the sub must behave in accordance to "normal expectations" as realistic as possible but of course without being an “easy to predict bot"
The attractive part of the hunt is to try to outsmart the sub captain, anticipate his movements.

In Destroyer Command I have spent long hours searching for the submarines, sometimes maneuvering the convoy in a way that the sub could not engage them.
The most attractive game play was always against human sub captains that knew well our limitations and capacities and maneuver accordingly to destroy the convoy, but we the escort also knew they capabilities. That was the best part of the game.

Like Neal mentioned, the “Save Game" function is probably a great tool to allow us to have a more realistic and attractive scenario.
In Destroyer Command enemy subs went deep when the destroyer was on top, that made killing them extremely difficult, almost an art.
In the actual game the AI sub is staying most of the time shallow and all my kills have been on shallow subs.
Sub captains have a huge bag of tricks to confuse the DD and prevent an effective DC attack.

A scenario like the actual one in the game where you have have up to 5 subs in a one hour battle is too much for my taste. One sub or max 2 should be enough.
A smart sub captain maneuvers his sub undetected into a firing position where he could fire all his bow torpedoes and the first hint the DD captain would have that a sub is around would be the first torpedo explosion :Kaleun_Salute: respect for those captains. But not on my watch :arrgh!:

Destroyer has an AWESOME potential!!!! Just give us the historical immersion of fighting subs commanded by captains that are not far more aggressive or smarter than Otto Krestchmer himself.

Thanks for bringing life to the Destroyer escort simulation !! :Kaleun_Applaud:

Some really good feedback in here.

I agree with the points on making the sim more tactical in nature, instead of just immediately placing subs in melee range of the convoy, which is never more than 4,000-5,000 yards away.

4,000 yards is roughly 2 miles, and I can't imagine a destroyer that wouldn't notice a surfaced contact approaching the convoy until 2 miles. It seems a bit forced to immediately put pressure on the player to have the u-boat so close to the merchants right off the bat, instead of detecting the sub 10-20 miles away and intercepting it in more open waters before it can get closer to the convoy.

I also agree about the volume of subs in the easiest of the scenarios. 4 subs is a wolfpack, and the player shouldn't be fighting a wolfpack on the easiest difficulty. 1 or 2 at the most as suggested would be more in line with the easiest difficulty setting.

^ After having read the comment above an idea popped up in my head.

You have problem with the subs AI-Here's my idea

Why not remove AI and let a human control the submarine.

Here me thinking at the beginning of the game a player can choose sub or destroyer. (then the skill levels are not needed)

Thereby the skill of the sub will be based on the players skill.

Markus

This would effectively turn the game into a multiplayer game, and I believe the focus is fine tuning its single player capabilities right now. They would have to design a completely new interface for the sub and its controls and mechanics, which is a huge project.
Multiplayer introduces another level of coding to sync variables and states between both clients, and it's not something that is easily implemented this close to an Early Access release.

[mapuc]

^ You're are right
Never thought how much work there is to create a human controlled sub.

It is my dream though that we once again in the near future can play
human Vs Human-Sub Vs Destroyer.

Markus

[mebz]

I remember destroyer command, it was a really good game, ahead of its time.

This game looks like something I have wanted to play for a long time, a good companion to Silent Hunter. I think its important to have a good variety of missions types, from plain old escort duty to guarding a harbor and resuce ops. Consider me a day 1 buyer!

[kris73]

Is the early access still spet 28? I thought there was a teaser video coming at SubSim.

[Onkel Neal]

Won't be long :arrgh!:

[Furia]

After my initial report, I have had the chance to play a little bit more and I have found some issues to report.

The ship phyisics still need to be reviewed.
For instance if you go at 15 knots and select all stop you slow down to 0 knots in 20 seconds. A +2000 tons ship would take long minutes to slow down to 0 knots. Same goes to acceleration althogh not so dramatically as to slow down.

On today's testing it was night with heavy fog, I could barely see the merchants unless almost colliding with them, however the Black Cat Aircraft had no problem to visually sighting periscopes and attacking them with depth charges. Seems the Ai aircraft has the same issues with atmospheric limitations like the AI subs and are not affected by visibility or illumination.

Regarding illumination the Light projectors behaviours was strange. I could turn them On but not off. (The light switched off as seen through the optics from the gun control station however it was fully on in the external view)

The analogic clock on the bridge shows the hours in a strange way. It was 16:57 as seen in the digital clock and as well as comented by the crew in relation to the time a new cocntact was located however the "hour hand" was centered in 4 where it should have moved to be almost at 5. The moment it was 17:00 the "hour hand" jumped from 4 to 5.

And the next comments are not "bugs" but some feedback.
It would be great to have information about actual number of DC remaining on board. At this moment seems unlimited but I cannot confirm that.
regarding Depth Charges, I would love to have the capability of deciding the total number of charges to be droped in one pass and then be able to select if I want only the stern rail ones or the lateral throwers, and even select maybe one side of those throwers, for instance port throwers only.

Another nice to have would be the convoy information about base course, speed and if implemented , the zig-zag plan. Now when it is foggy I need some time to figure out the convoy direction.

This is all so far from my side. :up:

[Rickster1]

I know its only a beta but it makes my pc run a bit hot and its a decent rig

[Sonarman]

A new version of the beta seems to have been released on Steam today (20/9/21) the battles now feature a cutscene sequence at the beginning, motion blur seems to have been eliminated / reduced and I am finding that the graphics are running better on my laptop, there seems to be more graphic options available over the previous beta build.

[Halcyon]

I can't find a changelog anywhere, so I'm not sure what exactly we're supposed to be testing other than the giant list of stuff that's already been reported.
Also have to say, I'm not a fan of the forced cutscene before starting a battle. It can't be skipped, and as the player I feel like I'm losing time to give my own orders and intercept the U-boat.

I'm still encountering up to 3 U-boats on the easy scenario, which to me doesn't feel that easy. There is only one other escort, and the two of us were tied up with Alpha and Bravo targets when Charlie came in unimpeded and started sinking merchants. Air support never showed up.
I don't think wolf packs should be a thing until at least the medium difficulty.

[Rickster1]

so far save game works ok. Sub behaviour is still too aggressive and small shouldnt have 3 uboats only 1 . More feedback later but subs TOO aggressive

[Halcyon]

I've managed to get an oil slick and wreckage to appear after a depth charge drop, but the u-boat is still going after that.
Is this normal?

The amount of wreckage floating seems like a large hole was blown in the sub. I don't understand why it isn't sunk and out of the fight at this point.

Also, periscopes out of the water are still suddenly disappearing after a few seconds of being called out by the lookouts. It looks like a graphical bug. This was present in the last closed beta build.

[Rickster1]

You cannot switch seachlights off, 1 goes off 1 stays on. Subs are still too nimble, they would go silent running when chased by escort with a normal speed of 2-3 knots and the odd burst of 6-7 knots when dc,s where dropped. It should feel like a game of cat and mouse and it doesnt. A small scenario had 4 subs attacking over 45 mins it really wasnt like this in real life. The game needs time compression and fight the battle over a longer period using save game facility. I stress, subs too nimble and cat and mouse game less subs attackinging.

[Rickster1]

ok so just found tactical setup works so just set up a battle , what i would like to see is that your on the escort run game 5 to 10 mins or more then you get a contact then the cut scene kicks in with general quarters being sounded ect. It comes back to the start of the game creating suspense, i would mind if you had 15mins without a contact as i want to play out each battle for 5 to 6 hours say using save game. So sequence = game starts convoy moving as is escort we get a contact the cutscene kicks in then the fun starts with a cat and mouse adventure with sub keeping to realistic speeds and turning speed. Hope this helps, just my views offcourse

[Halcyon]

The u-boat is consistently doing 8 knots submerged. I decided to get behind him and slow to 1/3 speed to see if the distance increased or decreased, but it always remained at 600 yards over three sonar calls.

If the u-boat is cruising at no less than 8 knots, this makes it really difficult to get depth charges to land in his path when he makes a turn to evade, which he always does.

The destroyer can't turn tight enough to get charges directly in his path if you start the turn as soon as you hear (or see it on the plotting table) that the sub is making a sharp turn.
At 8 knots, the sub will be laterally out of the path the destroyer can make in its own turn.

No wonder I keep missing my depth charge attacks. The few times I've managed to get hits and make an oil slick appear is when I guessed which way the sub would turn ahead of time (which is a 50/50 guess) and try to guesstimate his path and drive over it with a shallow pattern.

Also, you can see from the screenshot that the u-boat was driving in straight line at a deep depth.
Even coming up on him from directly his stern, preparing a deep pattern, and dropping when the printer showed the contact pattern crossing the dotted black line, I could never get the depth charges to hit him.
Right now I'd say it's impossible to hit a deep sub using the visual cues from the equipment. Something is off.

[Rickster1]

I just cant empasise how much of a game killer 2 aspects are in this beta, 1. as soon as you start the cutscene and straight away a contact. This should be about raising some tension by letting the game run convoy on course perhaps up to 15 mins and then contact and then the cutscene comes in.
2. The behavior of the submarine is all wrong, on the surface 14 to 18 knots was the speed of a type 7 so thats fine, fast and manouvable but once dived than the sub could run at 7 to 8 knots for short bursts but once hunting started they were more likely to go at silent speed 2 to 3 knots and could not turn on a sixpence.
To make the game exciting and tense then the chase should be slow tense sonar contact gained and lost , both sub and escort trying to get into position , escort chasing the sub away from the convoy and sometimes getting a kill. For the real enthusiasts thats how the game should run in my view, for the casual gamers have a different difficulty level where the currant game may be ok.

[Furia]

Although some game mechanics still need to be adjusted, this new Beta version shows an excellent improvement from the previous one.
Game saves and the possibility to make a "custom battle" are a huge difference.
I have created a custom battle with 4 escorts, 20 merchant ships, and 2 subs in a 2 hour scenario that looks credible to me and the results were:

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cs9q9Q8/DD-Beta1-Victory.jpg

Here are my notes about this new patch.
I just LOVE the intro scene :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up::subsim: It provides excellent immersion and shows the great detail of the different ship stations. I do not share the opinion that this cutscene generates any difficulties or delays engaging the the sub. The game has not even fully started yet, and I like the intro scene. However, I have seen it already 3 times and mostly it was the same scene. The problem may be that this may become repetitive and boring once you have been playing it for a while, so I would suggest having " a few different versions" of it if possible, and most importantly, the possibility for the player to "skip" it if he chooses so.

Some issues I have seen are that despite selecting "clear" weather, there are always fog patches and visibility is a little bit limited while I was expecting to have just a clear day.
I have seen that the subs behaviour has changed a bit. They try to evade and move away from the convoy after being engaged and taking some damage:rather than continuing as kamikazesI also notice a lot more zig-zag maneuvers and depth changes. :Kaleun_Applaud:
However, they remain overly aggressive and frequently maintain flank speed, whereas the tactic of slowing down and accelerating only when the DD is on the final run proved to be the most effective in real life.
The reason these subs are easy to "hit" is because they remain at shallow depth most of the time. Only once did I have to make a "deep" attack. So subs are relatively easy to hit, but not so easy to skink or be rendered "combat ineffective." I hit one sub several times, generating an oil slick and even a field of debris and floatsam, which was impressive, but the sub remained alive and kept on maneuvering, although this time evading the convoy. The visuals of the depth charges exploding have improved a lot, especially with low light conditions. They are spectacular. :up:

I still don't like the sounds of the depth charge launchers, or the fact that I can hear the launching of charges from ships at 8000 meters away as if they were my own charges from where I am. I do not believe I should hear other ships launching charges unless they are really close to my own position.

One of the most unrealistic and annoying aspects is that AI escort ships constantly update me with GPS precision on the position of the sub I am attacking, such as "ABLE is 400 yards from Blodhound relative 223o."It appears to me that they should be concentrating on their own attack rather than constantly providing me with uninvited enemy positions.This is a game changer since it makes the DD's life much easier. It is impossible for the sub to escape detection once we have 1 Ai ship and 1 human in the area. Not even huge barrages of DC and the noise that they generate prevent the sub being constantly "locked" There is no way to lose it.This also means that when you have 4 warships attacking 2 different subs and each of them is continuously sending reports, the radio chatter is saturated and my sonarman reports get delayed.
I would love to have a way to select a filter to block or give priority to the messages. If I'm in the final run to drop, all I want to hear is from my sonarman, not reports of another attack in another sub far away.

The tactical screen is centered on the own ship, but due to zoom limitations, it is difficult to zoom in and see other escorts, enemy sub positions, and marks if you are not close to the own ship.

AI escorts ignore you and do not care about colliding with you if a human ship and one AI ship are attacking the same sub. You have to be the one that has to prevent collisions since the AI ignores your position and does not maneuver to avoid it even if you are in a position where you should have priority.

One nice to-have feature would be the possibility of selecting the different escorts and even the airplane in the external view to see what they do. I know this is not "realistic" (neither is the own ship's external view), but it does not provide any tactical advantage and may provide nice and attractive visuals (for videos :03: )

I have already mentioned in other posts, I would love to have the option of switching off the ASDIC and using only passive hydrophones (and also be able to order the same to the AI) if you finally manage to move the game from the "shooting sandbox" concept and make it more of a "search and hunt" idea. Searching subs was mostly done by passive hydrophones and that was a very powerful tool for that, while ASDIC was mostly used not for the initial location" but for the attack.

Another item for the future is that the game now operates in 3 different depth levels. Shallow, medium and deep. But what happens is that the sub operates exactly on this criteria, so if I know the sub is, let's say, "medium depth," my DC will explode exactly at that depth, But what is medium depth? In real life, if the sub was at 50 meters depth but I launched my DC set to explode at let's say 80 meters, those chages would surely not kill the sub even if they explode exactly in the sub's position but 30 meters deeper. The DD has a system to "estimate" the sub depth by calculating the distance to the sub the moment the sub moves out of the ASDIC preset cone. In other words, knowing the exact depth of the sub was a difficult but vital element to getting a kill and the actual system simplifies it a bit too much, making it much easier for the DD captain.

These are my comments. a significant improvement over the previous patch!!!!!!
I have really enjoyed today's game a lot :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:I love to see that the developers have given a lot of love to their product and I am confident that once the small issues are tweaked, we will have the "definitive" Destroyer simulation here !!!
Thanks a lot!!!

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hello everybody!

We have just rolled out a new and improved version of the beta (build ID: 9570662). The changelog below lists only the most important improvements:

-‘custom battle’ is now functional
-U-boat aggression and numbers have been toned down
-tactical 101 video now launches after the tutorial
-info on collisions added in mission summary
-more stable save game
-more stable tutorial

Known issues that remain:

CBDR requires further adjustments

Next subjects on our list:

CBDR
broad/narrow depth charge salvos


Please let us know how you like the new version. We did our best to introduce as much of your feedback as possible in the short amount of time. We will continue to improve the game after the EA release in order to iron all the creases and add all the missing features ASAP, and then we will move on to the campaign and lots of other cool stuff :Kaleun_Cheers:

We really hope that you will stay excited about Destroyer and that your feedback will help us tailor the game to your expectations. We are looking forward to your opinions on th new build, and, in the meantime, we will continue working to make CBDR more reliable and less annoying :Kaleun_Salute:

[Rickster1]

just downloaded the new update, thankyou for continuing to improve the beta, I shall buy the game when released but can i suggest the you provide a roadmap so that we can see where the game is going and detail the changes in each update, thank you for listening

[Topo65]

Version 0.9.7 is much better. Submarine detection becomes more difficult. I think the introductory video gets repetitive, you should be able to skip with the ESC key for example. Also the distance at which the battle starts could be an option.

[Sonarman]

The new tutorial intro video is a nice edition but I am finding it is running in a slow and stuttery way on my reasonably new laptop, noticed this also with the sub torpedoing the merchant ship video.

[Rickster1]

I fully agree about the cutscene when you start the game, its the point i made earlier about being rushed into the game by the time the cutscene has finished the sub has gone 2000 yds closer to the convoy. Al option of starting the sub further a way is a great idea, im not sure what range the radar was at this stage of the war but i think it was quite a bit further than 6000 yds. So perfect start for me id 1. start the game , convoy moving along and i can get my bearings and then a radar plot at say 8000yds cutscene kicks in and ive still got plenty of time to start and hunt for the target.

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hello everyone,

New update: version 0.9.8 (build ID:9578079)

changelog:

-gameplay opening cutscene is now skippable (yes, we hear ya :Kaleun_Salute:)
-corrected audio and performance in video content
-depth charge camera now has text that says who is attacking who

Thank you very much for the kind words, we are glad you are enjoying the new and improved versions! Have fun, and do let us know about your impressions.

PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THAT THE BETA CLOSES ON THE 28th, as soon as we release the EA Version.

[Rickster1]

Hi, still having problems switching guns from radar controlled back to normal, it just wont do it.

[Furia]

I have just done a test in the new build released this afternoon, build 9578079.

This game gets better every minute. Uboats start to behave nicely :up:

Once the DD presses the attack they start evasive maneuvers instead kamikazing into the convoy. They now zig-zag when the DD is in the terminal run and they change depth more frecuently when evading.
Even one time the submarine surfaced and tried to run away in surface.
Apparently they also slow down and speed up to avoid the attack. AWESOME :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

All in all, a different game from the first version. :Kaleun_Party:

I have managed to skink both subs after much work and effort this time and just because they still have the tendency to remain shallow most of the time.
In any case fantastic improvement.

Just some additional notes from this test.
The pop up window showing the attack on the sub is "ugly" with the text about what ship is attacking what. And besides this there is a problem when you have AI attacking an different sub than yours, several times when I did my pass to drop on "my tgt" the pop-up window showed the "other sub" instead mine. Actually I was not able to see the impact of my DC that killed one of the subs I was attacking because it was showing the other sub.

I have used the "custom battle" and selected Noon and Storm weather. The visuals there were not espectacular, specially the "sub pop-up window that had ugly sea surface colour very light.

Another issue was that I was attacking and killing one sub by myself but the announcement and the kill in the Contacts screen was given to another eescort that was not even engaging the sub.

Some additional comments would be. During fog scenarios or when ships are in "collision course" it would be nice to have collision "horns" to give more inmersion.
Another inmersion touch would be to have different types of merchant ships. As far as I could see all the merchants are the same model (Maybe I have missed some variations) Could be nice to have a mixture of different types including tankers or just cargo ships and including troop transports...maybe large warships to protect :03:

Everyday this is getting better and better. My fears about this becoming just a shooting sandbox are gone and I am looking forward for the release version that I will pre-purchase the minute becomes available. :yeah:

[Rickster1]

Im now interested to know what differences there will be between the beta and the EA game ?

[Furia]

Im now interested to know what differences there will be between the beta and the EA game ?

While I would also love to have more info from the developers, there are already some nice hints about upcoming features that you can see when you finish a mission in the actual Beta.
The way this is evolving and the aexcellent response from the developters to the community feedback, makes me think that this is just the begining of something really awesome.

https://i.postimg.cc/0QBvczrZ/EA-DD.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

I

Just some additional notes from this test.
The pop up window showing the attack on the sub is "ugly" with the text about what ship is attacking what.

Some additional comments would be. During fog scenarios or when ships are in "collision course" it would be nice to have collision "horns" to give more inmersion.


Everyday this is getting better and better. My fears about this becoming just a shooting sandbox are gone and I am looking forward for the release version that I will pre-purchase the minute becomes available. :yeah:

That's a really great idea about the collision/fog horns! Would really add ambiance to the situation.


The pop up window showing the attack on the sub is "ugly" with the text about what ship is attacking what.

Disagree, I really like having the content of the popup labelled. :arrgh!:

[Halcyon]

The sub is still doing maneuvers that are borderline impossible. I've included two screenshots showing me tracking a sub with sonar.

The first picture is the initial intercept, and shows my destroyer trying to line up for a good drop after missing the initial intercept opportunity. Right before I get that opportunity, the sub goes into a hard left turn, and you can clearly see his turn radius versus my maximum turn radius.

https://i.imgur.com/8xP3tK8.jpeg

He can turn in less than 1/2 of my maximum turn radius capability. I started my turn as soon as I got the call he was in a sharp turn, but there's no way my depth charges can get over him if he's turning like that.
How are we expected to sink uboats if they can turn like this doing speeds of 8 knots (see my previous post (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2828731&postcount=52) where I showed that a submerged sub will constantly go 8 knots)?

I don't even think they can physically turn that tight, especially at 8 knots. I've never been on a submarine, but out of all the sub games I've played (Dangerous Waters, Cold Waters, Wolfpack, Uboat, Silent Hunter, etc.), I've never seen a sub that can do that.

Later on in the hunt, the sub performed a very sharp right turn before going into another full circle turn inside of my much larger turn radius.

https://i.imgur.com/RmZtshl.jpeg

I just don't know how the average player who has never touched another naval combat sim is expected to be able to sink a u-boat with these kinds AI maneuverability characteristics.

Is it just me? Or are other closed-beta testers finding the sub to be a little too maneuverable?

[Rickster1]

Totally agree about sub manoeuvres and it's totally un realistic I've read loads of U-boat books seen dasboot 10 times over looked at wiki and played all the games, this needs changing by the devs before releasing as its totally unrealistic and will turn serious gamers off.

[Furia]

I am sorry to disagree with this but this is an extremely well documented historical fact.
A Type VII would out turn a Fletcher destroyer class dramatically.
Actually a Fletcher class was considered a real bad turning platform and there was even talks in the past that an Iowa Class battleship would out turn a Fletcher

LINK Pacific War Online Enciclopedia. Fletcher Class DD (http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/l/Fletcher_class.htm)

One notable weakness of the class was its poor maneuverability, and it was claimed that even an Iowa-class battleship could out turn a Fletcher. Subsequent destroyer classes adopted twin rudders to improve the turning radius.

In the other hand we do have the own US Navy assessment of the Type VII
turn capabilities.

LINK U-Boat Archieve Type VII analisis (https://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual/Manual.htm) See pages 17, 19 and 19

So while a Fletcher class was supposed to have a turn radius of 700 meters at fast speed, the U-Boat could manage a turning circle of 270 meters at flank.

The problem of the Fletcher was that it was initially designed with a single rudder and it has a relatively long lenght.

http://www.norton.co.uk/images/products/medium/1407161150-65537700.jpg

Other Destroyer escorts of smaller size or the small flower class corvetes has a better turning circle but none of then matched the U-boat capabilities even close.
The Type VII had twin rudder directly in the propeller flow

http://www.bluebird-electric.net/submarines/submarine_pictures/U_Boat_U995_twin_propellers_rudders_aft_German_Wor ld_War_Two_submarine_das_boot.JPG

Sinking U-Boats with depth charges (Rail and trowers) was extemely dificult, battles lasted 5 to 10 hours and the main tactic was to force the sub to run out of bateries or compressed air.
The future developement fo the Hedgehog would turn the tables because the sub captain could not identify that the DD was making the overpass to drop charges showing the moment to make a radical turn /speed /depth maneuver.

Actually I find the game now too easy, since the last two patches I am consistenly sinking all subs I find, just because they remain at shallow making my life easier. I can easily predict the sub possition even when turning for a 10 sec period (time for shallow DC to reach tgt) but if he goes deep, the more than 1 minute for the DC to get there, is sufficient for the sub to evade them nicely. So the fact the sub remains most of the time at shallow is the "unrealistc" thing while turn radius is historically accurate.

One of the limitations the developers should take into account is that battery life and availability of compressed air were the main factors a sub captain had to take into account. Normally no sub arrived to the convoy with just freshly charged and warm batteries at 100% capacity and he had to preserve them since he had no clue how long he would have to fight underwater.
As Neal mentioned in another post, the battery life at flank was expected to be 45 minutes to 1 hour. Compressed air was also used when making dramatic depth changes.

In real life DD just forced the sub to run and expend those comodities in order to force him to surface. A conservative U-boat captain that manages his resources is something we still do not have in the game.

Another element that needs tweaking is the acceleration /deceleration ratio for the submarine and for the destroyer. They accelerate and decelerate way too fast. The powerplant technology at the time did not allow for such fast speed changes. Ships need time to build speed and to slow down.
But I am happy with the turning capabilities of the sub.

There is a nice video here that explains this better than me

https://youtu.be/tyJ1JAjGek8

[Onkel Neal]

I definitely have to agree with Furia, I have played the game for about 28+ hours now. Yes, the U-boats turn tighter than the DD, that's not only historical, but without it, there wouldn't be much of a game.

I think after you have played the game more, you will see what I mean. We have radar to start the hunt, then we can get within sonar range before they dive. So, we usually get sonar contact quickly. If we don't get sonar contact then we can spot their periscope feather half the time. It's not too difficult to hammer the sub non-stop. So, we don't want the sub to be any less maneuverable than historical subs were.

A lot of time I would have a string of contacts, make an approach and the sub outguesses me, turns and sprints enough to avoid my DCs. That's ok, because I know he cannot keep that up forever. As long as the game makes the speed/duration of batteries historically realistic as well... ha, I am making his life hell just keeping him under.

A U-boat commander would use every trick he could to stay alive. He knows when a DD is after him. He knows what the DD commander is trying to do. So a U-boat commander will vary speeds, depths. He may creep at a battery-saving 2 knots until the DD is closing, then order hard rudder, full aster to one screw and full ahead to the other, pivot (or close to a pivot), then all all ahead full and hope the DD player did not change his attack approach at the last minute.

I have had U-boats turn away sharply at the last minute. I've also had then turn right into my path... then my DC attack usually strikes hard.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=5436&d=1664114474


https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=5434&d=1664114458

[Artur Salwarowski]

Yes, all the sources that I have been able to tap into pointed to the fact that the type VIIC was much more agile than the Fletcher, and that the latter's turning radius was about twice as large. First, the VIIC was built to be very nimble, hence the double rudder setup. And as for the Fletcher, I remember when I asked about it at the USS KIDD Veterans' Museum, they said that its turning capabilities were quite bad for a destroyer, more towards an aircraft carrier than a typical DD.

[Topo65]

IMHO, the Tutorial should pause the game during the pop-up texts until the player hits a continue button.


:salute:

[Toybasher]

While I would also love to have more info from the developers, there are already some nice hints about upcoming features that you can see when you finish a mission in the actual Beta.
The way this is evolving and the aexcellent response from the developters to the community feedback, makes me think that this is just the begining of something really awesome.

https://i.postimg.cc/0QBvczrZ/EA-DD.jpg

They misspelled U-boat. (I know U-boot might be technically correct, but the name of the game is referred to as "The U-BOAT hunter" everywhere else.)

I'll also note in-game, on the depth charge camera, they misspelled Bloodhound as "Blodhound"

Literally unplayable.

Kidding.

I'm nitpicking here, but I don't really like how you can see the Sonarman's shadow on the "TRR cam" picture in picture thing. It's really distracting and the window is small enough as it is, it's hard to see the dotted line and such and concentrate when the sonarman's darn head is in between the light and the TRR, especially since he's doing his "idle animation" and shuffling around a bit.

One other nitpick. I'm not trying to upset the voice actor who likely put in a ton of work recording the lines, but some takes of Mountie could maybe be re-done. He sounds very unenthusiastic and he says "yards" like "yards?" as if he's asking a question. The other voices are fine, it's just Mountie that seems a bit off. It's not a big deal and maybe as I hear his voice more I'll get used to it, but it sounds a bit odd.

[Onkel Neal]

IMHO, the Tutorial should pause the game during the pop-up texts until the player hits a continue button.


:salute:

It does.

[Topo65]

It does.

No. The game continues to run in the background while the player reads the instructions, and in the attack phase, the orders and events are out of sync because in the time the player reads, the submarine and the destroyer are still moving. Just a suggestion, nothing too important. :up:

[Onkel Neal]

I guess I read fast :ping:

[Rickster1]

Beta has just updated, not sure what the changes are

[Furia]

Just have updated the Beta.
Just a few notes.

The cut-scenes are suffering some kind fo desyncronization. When I am attacking my target, sudenly they show another submarine that is not the one being attacked at that moment. I can see nicely the scenes when the other escorts are attacking different subs but in a situation where I am attacking for instance ABLE and the other escor is attacking BAKER, the moment I launch my DC I am shown BAKER.

In an scenario with several escorts attacking 3 different subs at the same time, the ammount of communication is huge and generates lag. The messages from my own sonarman are delayed due to stratus reports from other ships. We should be able to filter the coms from other ships so when performing an attack on TGt say "ABLE", only comes related to ABLE are seen and the rest are placed in a "mailbox" to see later when I choose or maybe it would be nice to have the option of selecting other escrot in the tactical map and request a report. In any case the actual system is not good when attacking several targtes at the same time.

Another thing still from the previous beta version is that when you select the "lights" from the Gunner station, zou cannot switch them off. In external view your ship has a projector activated for the rest of the game.

Other item I have seen is that the nights are not dark at all. There is a lot of illumination. Those of you that have been at sea by night whith an overcast and no moon, you know that there is nothing darker than that. I hope we get real dark nights here :D

Today I have tested the tutorial, I have only done it once in the first Beta build and I have to saw that it was EXCELLENT (Although I agree with the propossed idea of having a "pause/unpause" function)
The ASW basics and explanations for new players with no previous experience in this type of warfare were AWESOME. Good Job !! :Kaleun_Applaud:

I love the way the subs maneuver now but of course they way the game is designed now with inmediate detection at game start, maketheir mission impossible. There is no way they can sink any sub since they are always detected before they are close to the convoy and since now they evade while being attacked, they are not attacking the convoy.
We do need those missions where the subs are submerged approaching or awaiting for the convoy.

In any case this game is every day better and better and better Thanks !!
:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hello everyone,

The beta has now closed, as the EA is live and we have heard from you about some technical issues between the two. Hopefully, those have been fixed when we closed the beta Steam branch. I would like to thank everyone involved one last time, and now we are back to work on making Destroyer the game it aspires to be :Kaleun_Salute:

[mapuc]

Hello everyone,

The beta has now closed, as the EA is live and we have heard from you about some technical issues between the two. Hopefully, those have been fixed when we closed the beta Steam branch. I would like to thank everyone involved one last time, and now we are back to work on making Destroyer the game it aspires to be :Kaleun_Salute:

I have a task for you-Fix the problems which may occur in Destroyer when this is done-You start to work on an addon-

This addon shall be playable subs.

It's not only me but I would hundreds of other members here in our forum who is missing our Sub Vs Destroyer games we played before with SHII and Destroyer Command.

Markus

[Furia]

I have a task for you-Fix the problems which may occur in Destroyer when this is done-You start to work on an addon-

This addon shall be playable subs.

It's not only me but I would hundreds of other members here in our forum who is missing our Sub Vs Destroyer games we played before with SHII and Destroyer Command.

Markus

Hear hear !!!!:Kaleun_Applaud::Kaleun_Applaud:

That would be a DREAM come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :subsim:

[Furia]

I have just finished a match with a very strange score. No convoy loses and all 4 enemy subs sunk, however the score reads as CATASTROPHIC DEFEAT :06: The only one defeated here was Doenitz :O:

https://i.postimg.cc/jdW2XVs4/Score-strange.jpg


It was a game saved that I started in 0.9.11 and finished now with 0.9.13 so maybe the new build has something to do.

I am having tons of fun with the game and I will make an steam review later today or tomorrow.
Shall we keep on reporting "issues" on this thread ?

[Rickster1]

I have the beta and steam still will not let me buy the ea game timed 19.48 bst. southampton, this is really getting frustrating and supporting the devs last week now cant buy the game

[Halcyon]

Also getting bugged score screens.
I forced a u-boat to surface and was shooting it with my 5 inch guns. I saw a big explosion after a hit, and immediately after that I get a cutscene with a merchant being torpedoed and this score screen:

https://i.imgur.com/Yo3IvS5.jpeg

The u-boat never fired a torpedo. There was also a second u-boat still active but the game ended here, but this score screen shows 8 u-boats (there were only 2). I also could not advance beyond the score screen (pressing continue relaunched the cutscene and brought up another continue window, which at that point did nothing when clicked. I had to alt-F4 to quit the game).

A separate issue is the crew model faces are distorted:

https://i.imgur.com/YjUQu73.jpeg

[Furia]

I can also confirm the issues with the faces of the crew as well.

[Onkel Neal]

You ain't seen nothing yet. :)

[Artur Salwarowski]

Hello everybody,

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR CLOSED BETA PARTICIPANTS

It has come to our attention that at least some of you have encountered an issue with upgrading to the Early Access version of the game.

In order to leave the beta, you need to:

1. right click on the game in the library, go to properties and then to the 'betas' tab
2. then choose 'None' in the dropdown menu

This should eliminate any potential conflicts between the beta version and the Early Access version.

Please let us know if the above solution has fixed the issue for you. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.

As for the remaining issues that you have reported:

-We have noted the distorted faces, but so far we haven't been able to pinpoint the exact reason why that happens
-We hope that we have fixed the bug when the U-boat is destroyed on the surface (which would stop the game with an 'F' grade)

We are now gathering tons of feedback and evaluating priorities for upcoming updates. Hopefully, we will be able to eliminate the most annoying bugs ASAP.

[Onkel Neal]

Hey-oh, I had no problem upgrading, I simply cannot buy the game with the supporter pack. I went to buy a tank game today, and thought Steam would let me include DUH w/supporter pack, (love that acronym) but alas. :k_confused:

So, I will make a new thread with a contest and purchase it as a gift for some lucky member! :Kaleun_Cheers:

[Oubaas]

I bought the game a few days ago, but I only bought the base game. I thought I'd play first and see if it was worthy of buying the supporter package, LOL! :haha:

So after it installed, I played for an hour or so. Then I went back and bought the supporter pack, too. I would definitely recommend this game.

I played the demo while I waited for the game release. If you liked the demo, you're going to love the game!

The dev team is hard working and responsive. But there are no glaring issues for me so far. I'm still getting into it, though. If anything comes up, I'll report it.

I guess Onkel Neal and I were operating on the same frequencies the other day. I bought DUH, plus Gunner, Heat PC and I finally bought Steel Armor: Blaze of War. It must have been Ships & Tanks Day, my favorite holiday! :woot:

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Onkel Neal]

Hi Oubaas, yes, we have been programmed very similarly. :haha: I too bought Gunner, Heat PC recently! Tanks and Ships Day, I like that!

[ReallyDedPoet]

I too bought Gunner, Heat PC recently!


Looks like a dandy :yep:

[ybar]

Actually a Fletcher class was considered a real bad turning platform and there was even talks in the past that an Iowa Class battleship would out turn a Fletcher
It's true ! On our French-speaking portal, I have just produced an article which explains one of the attack methods on a Uboot.

In this article I placed a drawing with the turn rays of the fletcher and the wolfpack submarine.
http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=60318&view=findpost&p=462147

My French friend "CH Tortue" will certainly make a video of it very soon.

[PL_Andrev]

I have just finished a match with a very strange score. No convoy loses and all 4 enemy subs sunk, however the score reads as CATASTROPHIC DEFEAT :06: The only one defeated here was Doenitz :O:

Are you sure you did not play as sub commander?
:03:

[Akrow7]

Some guys (many on Sream) find it's too hard to sink an U-boat. I have allready more 50 hours game ( I love it ) won many battles and sunk 5 or 6 U-boats. So i think the game is well adjusted on that point.