Comments or concerns regarding the Ukrainian flag SUBSIM logo

[Onkel Neal]

I would normally put a PSA thread in Comments to SUBSIM but I suspect the discussion over this could veer political, so it's here. For now.

I have had a couple (actually several) members question me about adopting the blue/yellow Ukrainian SUBSIM banner. This is the answer I have given them:

I just want you to know that I am not against Russian Subsim members, not at all. I love Russian people, they are very clever.
The Subsim banner has the Ukrainian flag because I support stopping the war and killing in Ukraine.
If someone was to invade Russia unprovoked, I would have the white, blue, and red Russian flag there.

This war needs to end, Russia has no business in Ukraine.

[Jeff-Groves]

Good on you Neal.
I have friends made here at SubSim that are Russian. I have NOTHING AGAINST the Russain People.
But the War needs to stop!

[mapuc]

It's not the ordinary Russian I dislike it is their leader who have put them in this mess.

Markus

[Dargo]

I would normally put a PSA thread in Comments to SUBSIM but I suspect the discussion over this could veer political, so it's here. For now.

I have had a couple (actually several) members question me about adopting the blue/yellow Ukrainian SUBSIM banner. This is the answer I have given them:



This war needs to end, Russia has no business in Ukraine.

Could not agree more :up:

[Von Due]

Just echoing what's been said already. Flying the Ukrainian flag is to take a stand in regards to the war, not the Russian people. Their leaders are a bunch of [CENSORED] but the same can be said about prettymuch any leader anywhere. The war has to stop and both Russia and Ukraine has to come out of it standing, preferably together and not alone.

[Skybird]

Russians who are disgusted by this war, who do not defend Putin's fascism, and who are opposed to the Russian state dictatorship and the nationalist megalomania, I have no problems with them and I would continue to deal with them as before, if I knew Russians at the moment. I had Russian acquaintances a long time ago, but currently no longer.

But with Russians, who defend Putin, find the war good and follow the nationalistic propaganda noise, with such I want to have as much to do as with German Nazis or Mohammeddan purists or martial racist nationalists of any colour or any other inhuman fanatics: namely nothing, absolutely nothing.

In other words, the question for me is not whether some Russian is russian or not, obviously as a Russian he/she is Russian then. The question that decides my attitude towards this person is how this Russian thinks about Putin and his nationalistic fascism.

I think that is consistent. That is transparent. That's fair. That is reasonable.


P.S. Russia currently sees a massive brain drain, especially from the IT sector. Many young Russians and families try to flee from Putin's Russia as long as they still can, they fear what is coming after this war - in Russia. Severla hundred thosuand Russians have already fled form Russia. And they flee from Putin and the restoration of the Stalinist-Sovjet tyranny he brings back. Why would we want to see them as enemies? They are victims, too.

[Buddahaid]

Showing up in lots of places.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1174/7gA8R1.png

[Reece]

Agree with your thoughts Neal, the banner is in good taste. :up:

[Armistead]

Putin is a modern day Hitler! His leveling of cities with no concern of the many innocent men, women and children he's killing is inexcusable, not to mention `1000's of Russian soldiers. In the end there's nothing to win, a lil bit of land in the east.

[tmccarthy]

Copy, sir.:salute:
-Tim


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2691/Td9kix.png

[astvitaliy1982]

Let me comment on the Ukrainian flag on the Subsim logo.

I, as a forum participant not from America or Europe, see a certain amount of cunning and populism in this.
This act is not fair to the citizens of Ukraine. If Subsim supported ending the war in Ukraine,
then the flag of this country on the logo would have been on the site for about 8 years.

Quote from Onkel Neal - "... because I support stopping the war and killing in Ukraine"

Because that's how much the war is going on in this country.
And hanging the flag on the logo right now, when Russia has entered this conflict, is rather illogical and incomprehensible ...
Based on the wishes of Onkel Neal.

No sane and normal person supports war in ANY COUNTRY OF THE WORLD.
But I don't remember that there were other flags on Subsim's website...

Based on this logic, it would be possible to hang the flags of the DNR / LNR and Ukraine on the logo, it would even
more correctly. Then it would be really clear that the Subsim website is against the war in Ukraine. because
CITIZENS of Ukraine are dying in this conflict, albeit under different flags. I am silent already about peaceful people.

But attaching the yellow-blue flag, this site, right now, (after Russia entered this conflict)
supports a certain side, in this case Ukraine. This is what it looks like for everyone.

The Subsim site was not political... we are all united by the love of the game and the story. But not for politics at the moment
moment of time. Today the agenda is one, tomorrow another, after tomorrow the third, so I think that -

"Don't bend under the changing world, let it bend under us"

A. Makarevich



As for forum members like Skybird, Armistead and the like....

We have one saying - "The farther into the forest, the thicker the partisans", I don't want to offend anyone,
so those who know will understand.

Thank you)

[Skybird]

But I don't remember that there were other flags on Subsim's website...
Then you remember either wrong or not long enough, because there were. Quite some. On many opportunities. Over the past 20+ years.
The Subsim site was not political.But this section- general topics - always was, as it was religious and elsewise as well. Since 20+ years. Its called "general topics" not for no reason.

What Neal expresses with that Ukrainian logo, btw, is not so much politically motivated, but motivated by sympathy and human compassion, inter-human solidarity. Note that he abstains from further political comments.

If you want to complain about hostile political opinions opposing maybe your views, complain about me and some others then.

[Catfish]

re Neal's 1st post i completely agree.

I also have to say, that after we made some "excursions" recently, that in the countries we visited the blue-yellow flag was hanging everywhere from buildings, out of windows, from flagposts and churches, it really was a sight to see. And it clearly shows that people care about what happens in Ukraine now, a lot.
People mostly say that Putin is destroying Russia'a own culture, and that they are not sure whether Russia could be ever forgiven after this. There is not even a pretext, it is all about direct imperialism of a dictatorship that looks like being stuck in the early 20ieth century.

[Skybird]

People mostly say that Putin is destroying Russia'a own culture, and that they are not sure whether Russia could be ever forgiven after this. There is not even a pretext, it is all about direct imperialism of a dictatorship that looks like being stuck in the early 20ieth century.
Think you like this:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2804382&postcount=3245

[astvitaliy1982]

Guys, let's define the difference... It's one thing to express personal sympathy (usually done in the comments), it's another thing to hang the flag of the country on the logo of the site that thousands of people use. (Realizing that this will cause a conflicting interpretation among the forum participants) This is not the same thing. I think so.
The red flag, at one time, also hung everywhere ... The American flag also hung everywhere ... Not only in America ... And what ...? Where do these flags come from? They are embroidered by housewives..? or are they bought for the last money by the inhabitants of the warring regions ...? Or are they hung up by the state authorities to show them to "tourists" ...?

[astvitaliy1982]

Believe me, I do not condemn the intentions of this action in any way. The forum participant expressed his attitude to this trouble as a real, caring and sympathetic person. And that's right.

[Onkel Neal]

Let me comment on the Ukrainian flag on the Subsim logo.

I, as a forum participant not from America or Europe, see a certain amount of cunning and populism in this.
This act is not fair to the citizens of Ukraine. If Subsim supported ending the war in Ukraine,
then the flag of this country on the logo would have been on the site for about 8 years.

Quote from Onkel Neal - "... because I support stopping the war and killing in Ukraine"

Because that's how much the war is going on in this country.
And hanging the flag on the logo right now, when Russia has entered this conflict, is rather illogical and incomprehensible ...
Based on the wishes of Onkel Neal.

No sane and normal person supports war in ANY COUNTRY OF THE WORLD.
But I don't remember that there were other flags on Subsim's website...

Based on this logic, it would be possible to hang the flags of the DNR / LNR and Ukraine on the logo, it would even
more correctly. Then it would be really clear that the Subsim website is against the war in Ukraine. because
CITIZENS of Ukraine are dying in this conflict, albeit under different flags. I am silent already about peaceful people.

But attaching the yellow-blue flag, this site, right now, (after Russia entered this conflict)
supports a certain side, in this case Ukraine. This is what it looks like for everyone.

The Subsim site was not political... we are all united by the love of the game and the story. But not for politics at the moment

so those who know will understand.

Thank you)

That's a fair and valid criticism, there is a multitude of bad actors and an abundance of injustice and conflict in the world. In this case involving tanks and artillery destroying whole cities and thousands of people I feel the situation has passed a point where I can remain silent.

[Catfish]

As far as i remember the flag of any country being in distress or being sympathized with has been displayed here, much to the liking of the people visiting.
Now Ukraine, its cities and people are being destroyed by a megalomaniac dictator, how should one NOT SHOW SOLIDARITY HERE?

If you say this is wrong because the ukrainian flag should have been shown earlier here since Putin has been causing unrest and destruction in the Donbas regions earlier, or when he was occupying the Krim with his innocent green men and shooting down a civilian plane, you are of course right.

You should not criticise showing the Ukrainian flag, as i wrote further north there are a lot of countries openly showing sympathy for Ukraine. Putin destroys a whole country and the russian culture, and the world is not sure whether this can be forgiven. If there is someone who can stop Putin it is not Tchaikovski and Tolstoj.

[Commander Wallace]

astvitaliy1982 (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=399869) makes a number of good points. Being from Donetsk, you would have a better understanding of things than most of us who reside elsewhere. To be fair, those of us who reside in America only know what is being reported. Therefore, our understanding of things eight years ago isn't what it is now. I'm sure most although not everyone had any idea that Putin is as evil as he is.

The hanging of a Ukrainian flag in Subsim could perhaps be seen as politicizing Subsim although, I know that isn't the intention. Like everyone else, I feel the war in the Ukraine is and remains stupid on more levels than I care to discuss. Certainly, the U.S, U.K and many other countries are sending weapons for Ukraine to defend itself and will continue to do so even in the face of Russian threats. I believe the Ukraine needs heavier armaments to defend themselves.

I have noticed that our Subsim members from Russia have been silent on this issue. I think they probably feel as we all do that this stupid war is destructive and senseless. I think there may be other reasons as well.

Our Russian Subsim members may well have their internet access blocked. Further, It would be dangerous and perhaps deadly for our members in Russia to disagree with the official party line there. Reports have filtered out of Russia of dissenters and protestors being killed there in Russia. Certainly, if our Russian members have internet access, they are being closely monitored. We enjoy the luxury of expressing our views here in Subsim. Our members from Russia are not so lucky. In this way, they are victims as well. With that said, I certainly don't hold those Russian citizens responsible for this war. I hope our Subsim members from Russia don't feel the views expressed in opposition to the war here in Subsim to be an indictment of them.

I'm certain, with the determination and bravery that the Ukrainians have showed in this war that they will rebuild their country, with help, back to where it was before.

One final thought. I think the Russian invasion has been a colossal and strategic failure from start to finish. The economic damage to Russia will take many years to undo. Russia's standing in the world and foreign policy is in shambles. If the political aim was to decapitate The Ukrainian leadership, it failed miserably. Putin has failed to divide NATO and the alliance came together much faster than Russia anticipated.

Further, instead of dividing NATO, both Finland and Sweden are now set to join the alliance. Finland of course shares a border of some 800 miles with Russia. I think this demonstrates clearly how incompetent and inept Putin is.

I'm glad our Subsim members support Ukraine in it's struggles. Then again, I'm hardly surprised. :subsim:

[mapuc]

I do NOT see any politically in turning our Subsim logo into blue & Yellow.

We only get news from one side of the conflict-That's why I stay neutral-
Yes I support Ukraine in their effort to win the war and I support our military help we send to them.
But that's it when it comes to war crimes both side seems to be doing it..
I know from news here that Ukrainian has committed war crimes against Russian soldier, whether they have committed crime against civilians I don't know.
The Russian has on the other hand, committed severe war crimes not only against Ukrainian military but also against the civilians.

For this, the latter, I have difficult staying neutral.

Markus

[astvitaliy1982]

Three people worked on the SH3 Onealex 1.53 mod: Onealex itself - the city of Lviv (Ukraine), Yura - the city of Vilyuchinsk (Russia), and I - the city of Donetsk (DPR). Without politics, controversy and general accusations. We just worked...)

It was one of the best moments in my life) I wish you all a peaceful sky above your head!)

[Catfish]

[...] Without politics, controversy and general accusations. We just worked...)
It was one of the best moments in my life) I wish you all a peaceful sky above your head!)
I wish you all the best. In the News there is being said that Putin has decided (said literally in a speech) to "eradicate the cities of Donetsk"(?). Maybe wrong translation, maybe just threats, maybe he does not care. Whatever side you're on, stay safe.

[Rockstar]

Let me comment on the Ukrainian flag on the Subsim logo.

I, as a forum participant not from America or Europe, see a certain amount of cunning and populism in this.
This act is not fair to the citizens of Ukraine. If Subsim supported ending the war in Ukraine,
then the flag of this country on the logo would have been on the site for about 8 years.

Quote from Onkel Neal - "... because I support stopping the war and killing in Ukraine"

Because that's how much the war is going on in this country.
And hanging the flag on the logo right now, when Russia has entered this conflict, is rather illogical and incomprehensible ...
Based on the wishes of Onkel Neal.

No sane and normal person supports war in ANY COUNTRY OF THE WORLD.
But I don't remember that there were other flags on Subsim's website...

Based on this logic, it would be possible to hang the flags of the DNR / LNR and Ukraine on the logo, it would even
more correctly. Then it would be really clear that the Subsim website is against the war in Ukraine. because
CITIZENS of Ukraine are dying in this conflict, albeit under different flags. I am silent already about peaceful people.

But attaching the yellow-blue flag, this site, right now, (after Russia entered this conflict)
supports a certain side, in this case Ukraine. This is what it looks like for everyone.

The Subsim site was not political... we are all united by the love of the game and the story. But not for politics at the moment
moment of time. Today the agenda is one, tomorrow another, after tomorrow the third, so I think that -

"Don't bend under the changing world, let it bend under us"

A. Makarevich



As for forum members like Skybird, Armistead and the like....

We have one saying - "The farther into the forest, the thicker the partisans", I don't want to offend anyone,
so those who know will understand.

Thank you)


Russia didn’t enter this conflict Russia started this conflict.

[Skybird]

Russia didn’t enter this conflict Russia started this conflict.
Bingo!
Relativising a crime is in principle the same like committing or assisting a crime. Its a deflection of own responsiblity that Russia uses very often.

[Jimbuna]

That's a fair and valid criticism, there is a multitude of bad actors and an abundance of injustice and conflict in the world. In this case involving tanks and artillery destroying whole cities and thousands of people I feel the situation has passed a point where I can remain silent.

I'm certainly standing alongside you Neal.

[Commander Wallace]

I'm certainly standing alongside you Neal.


:agree: I am as well. The Ukrainian colors show support. From most of the comments posted here, we are all good with that.

[Von Due]

^You bet! Had it been the other way around I would cheer for Russia but things aren't the other way around.