View Full Version : M1 Tank Platoon II
RetroGamer
09-15-21, 07:13 PM
Hello!
I am new to this forum but am a longtime tanksim player.
Recently, a neighbor gave me two old desktop PCs that he was about to discard. One of them is a 1999 IBM Aptiva with a 475 MHz processor. I cleaned it up and installed Win98, a Voodoo2 3Dfx card, and M1 Tank Platoon 2!
It’s a trick getting a decent game port compatible joystick to work correctly. It seems my really good USBCH 3D Pro Extreme will not work with this machine.
Just wondering - has anybody here “beaten” M1TP2? Completed all campaigns, training, etc?
I bought it when it came out but did not give it a chance. My computer was running XP at the time and I didn’t have a 3Dfx card so I couldn’t really get into it.
Well - now, I’m motivated! I’m gonna beat this thing! PC runs, 3D works, joystick works, REDCON-1!!!
Has anybody got any tips?
Aktungbby
09-15-21, 09:23 PM
RetroGamer!:Kaleun_Salute:
RetroGamer
10-01-21, 04:08 PM
I just returned from extensive travel and just now got a little time in with M1 Tank Platoon 2. I also got my good USB joystick working with Win98. The old gameport joysticks aren’t of sufficient quality to work with this game. Just like in Steel Beasts, a good joystick is a requirement!
All basic training missions complete! Working on the advanced NTC training missions.
I’ll post my progress as I play this simulation. I hope to beat the whole thing before the end of October.
This MPS game fares quite OK on Win10 using dgVoodoo and DXWnd. Gameplay is a little aged though. Gunship! has better tank AI actions but of course, you cannot fight there in the tank. Good Luck and give us your take and impression.
RetroGamer
10-01-21, 11:06 PM
This MPS game fares quite OK on Win10 using dgVoodoo and DXWnd. Gameplay is a little aged though. Gunship! has better tank AI actions but of course, you cannot fight there in the tank. Good Luck and give us your take and impression.
Yes, I looked into DXWnd and trying to get it to run that way but it was just too much. Plus, I only have Win7 on my best desktop. I will probably do it on my next PC.
And - coincidentally, I have been watching YouTube videos of Gunship! That title is also tailor-made for this PC so I can foresee buying a copy on eBay eventually as well.
The fun of this project is actually having a 22 year old computer to play the old game on. I had a lot of fun cleaning the PC up, re-pasting the CPU heatsink, installing a new CMOS battery, installing the 3Dfx card and even adding an “IBM blue” case fan to keep things cool in there.
https://i.imgur.com/WsVLxKE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/unObRnW.jpg
I will definitely keep you guys posted. I’ll be working my way through the campaigns.
Cannot argue with the draw of nice and warm nostalgia memories.:)
I only add that the manual is really very well written and gives nice and interesting overviews especially in the subject of doctrines, strategy, and tactics of modern tank units. Application of all of that in the game rather in question. :hmmm:
RetroGamer
10-07-21, 01:44 PM
Yes, I was in a Bradley Mech Infantry Batallion in the Army. I went through an NTC rotation as an M3 Scout Platoon Leader. We worked alongside the M1 tanks just as depicted in the game.
And, yes, the manual is very accurate. However, I haven’t figured out how to do bounding overwatch, for example, in the game. I don’t think that’s even possible.
Yeah - the manual is describing tactics that can’t really be used in the game.
Some stuff is inaccurate. The OP Orders for example. The mission statement should be one clear sentence.
No problem, this one is a keeper. I’m going to take care of the win98 machines that can run this masterpiece.
I completed all training and beat one campaign. 4 more to go.
And, yes, the manual is very accurate. However, I haven’t figured out how to do bounding overwatch, for example, in the game. I don’t think that’s even possible.
Yeah - the manual is describing tactics that can’t really be used in the game.
It is clearly evident that the project was to be continued into M1TP3/Gunship! and in fact already in Gunship! one can see how the AI tactics evolved. It is such a shame that this was cut short and unless current MPS does something it was all for naught.
Watch this clip from Gunship! just for a little glimpse of better tank AI they made then:
https://youtu.be/QFD7wC8o3YA
We perhaps never know what was on their drafting boards when M1TP3 got canceled.
RetroGamer
10-10-21, 05:53 PM
….. and unless current MPS does something it was all for naught.
We perhaps never know what was on their drafting boards when M1TP3 got canceled.
I have heard Microprose is being resurrected. They would be smart to complete Tank! But, even if all we will ever have is M1TP2 and Gunship! That’s good enough for me. I do remember everybody being mad at Hasbro for canceling Tank! It doesn’t seem that long ago - boy, time flies.
I’ve beaten 3 of the 5 M1TP2 campaigns on “Easy” setting. The game is a lot simpler than the manual led me to believe. I actually think the intimidating manual scared me away from giving the game a chance when I bought it 20 some odd years ago. That was stupid on my part because this sim is fantastic.
Gunship! and another Creative Voodoo2 card for SLI mode sounds like good Christmas presents for this retired soldier and the recently brought out of retirement Aptiva PC!!!
I’ll let you guys know when I’ve beaten every mission. I don’t think it’ll take much longer.
Once I do, I might replay it on a harder setting.
Your posts are inspirational to me.
And I too have very soft spot for some of the old simulations.
Although I prefer to try to work them on the modern systems (and sometimes that makes me want to cry!). Still, I am of the opinion that modern hardware with all the associated horse power gives the right environment to experience old games without worrying about FPS and all that performance stuff. I realize that 3dfx drivers for Voodoo cards gave some of the games very special flavor, but I am not sure if that is really the case or that was just that we were awestricken with then what you would consider better graphics or we simply did not know any better.
I run M1TP2 on Win10 64 on dgVoodo2 glide wrapper and with some help of DXWnd configuration program. Sounds may be complicated but it is really not.
Be as it may, I leave you to your old Aptiva as long as it works for you.
About M1TP2 in general: I have recently scoured the internet and recovered an entire wealth of old articles, tactical guides, and quite nifty modding tools. I gladly share that with you or anyone interested. Unfortunately, just like you were a little disappointed with the game vs depiction of things in the manual, I was also saddened to discover that a rather primitive terrain and perhaps simplistic gameplay gave me no deeper satisfaction I was hoping for in reviving this game.
By no means do I say this to discourage you from exploring this tank sim. To the contrary, I am as you see very eager for any news of your exploits and experiences which maybe I had missed. So keep on posting your story and perhaps we can find more fun and entertainment in this old Microprose gem.
RetroGamer
10-11-21, 12:48 AM
Your posts are inspirational to me.
And I too have very soft spot for some of the old simulations.
By no means do I say this to discourage you from exploring this tank sim. To the contrary, I am as you see very eager for any news of your exploits and experiences which maybe I had missed. So keep on posting your story and perhaps we can find more fun and entertainment in this old Microprose gem.
Thanks, Polak2!! When my neighbor was about to toss those old desktops, I explained to him that PC gaming peaked right around the time those machines were sold. Back in the late ‘90s developers were producing great programs for desktops. Mechwarrior 2, Earthseige, The Armored Fist series of tank games, etc. Not being a gamer, he kinda just laughed and said, “take ‘em. Just wipe the hard drives.”
It was really fun wiping the drives, cleaning the hardware, replacing the broken CD-ROM drives, and reinstalling everything!!
Regarding M1 Tank Platoon 2, I noticed the gunnery is very similar to the original Steel Beasts which I also have installed on the IBM Aptiva. Sometimes, I’ll do the gunnery range in Steel Beasts, then jump into M1 Tank Platoon 2. I programmed my joystick to operate the same in both sims.
I’ve also got iM1 Abrams installed as well as all 3 Armored Fist sims.
I was in a Bradley Mech Infantry Natl Guard unit when all these tank sims came out so I was really really into it. The ones below are the most significant to me and I’ve got them all installed and running.
M1 Tank Platoon, 1989 - classic sim. Played it for hours, great manual.
Armored Fist, 1994 - Everybody expected this to be a sequel to M1 tank Platoon. It was kind of an arcade type sequel and if you have a gameport joystick with a hat switch, you can manually target enemy tanks and make it more realistic. I’ve beaten all 47 missions dozens of times. This game runs better in DOSBOX than it ever did in true DOS with mechanical joysticks. This is one game that I intend to get an advanced programmable joystick and HOTAS controller and tear through the entire game once more without ever touching the keyboard or mouse.
M1 Tank Platoon 2 - 1998
Steel Beasts - 2000
T-72 - 2005. A great Russian game that the Steel Beasts community (foolishly) rejected. This begins the new era of WinXP and above sims. I’ve lost all interest in anything that came out afterward.
Hopefully, Gunner, Heat, PC will be good. I will need to get out my new computer for that one.
Anyway, absolutely - stay inspired, keep those skills sharp and those PCs running fast!!!
@ RetroGamer
I see you are familiar with all modern tank simulators are one can possibly be.
Your military job background from you have recently retired makes it not perhaps so much automatic or obvious, but rather very interesting as you have a really good feel backed by the experience to draw good comparisons, conclusions, and opinions on how those games and simulations adhere to the reality.
For me as having no such experience but just some familiarity with tank simulations I put the original Steel Beasts1 on the top of the stack. Despite some simplifications in the terrain and graphic, in general, the AI, terrain, graphics, editor, and gameplay (including multiplayer) was of the most intense and engaging and still, some 20 yrs later, are fondly remembered and revered. I know, that the Steel Beasts Pro PE which came in the second iteration of that brand was, and perhaps still is, more superior although SB1 holds in my heart and memory a very special place.
I also submit to you all that SB1 is still as playable and it was and it is the most perfect tool to acquire some basic modern tank experience with the bonus of being able to be as realistic as any without military background may wish to have.
You @RetroGamer are in a very interesting situation as you are a professional able to distinguish the true value of learning about tanks from fiction. I suggest that we continue this conversation and maintain contact over here. :salute:
RetroGamer
10-11-21, 01:05 PM
I also submit to you all that SB1 is still as playable and it was and it is the most perfect tool to acquire some basic modern tank experience with the bonus of being able to be as realistic as any without military background may wish to have.
You @RetroGamer are in a very interesting situation as you are a professional able to distinguish the true value of learning about tanks from fiction. I suggest that we continue this conversation and maintain contact over here. :salute:
Hey, Thanks! I don't want anybody to think I am more than I am. I was in the National Guard and was activated for Desert Shield/Storm but I didn't retire from the guard. I did, however, recently retire from my job, which involved computer forensics.
My unit went through an NTC rotation in 1991 and it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. There was not a thing fun about it. I was worried sick that one of my guys was going to flip a track (we were M3 Scouts and moved at night), fall off a cliff, have an accident, etc. etc. We were sleep deprived which, frankly, is very dangerous when operating heavy machinery like M3 Bradleys. I was also worried that any laziness on my part would get men killed. If I didn't pay attention to every word, it could cost lives. No fun there, LOL!!
We trained in real simulators called the M-COFT and U-COFT. (Conduct Of Fire Trainer) It was a mockup of a Bradley gunner and commander station and was taken very seriously. The graphics looked just like M1 Tank Platoon but the operation was just like Steel Beasts.
Anyway, I think that's why I like Armored Fist 1994 so much. It's not super realistic, but not a total kids arcade game either. You are correct, Steel Beasts is the gold standard for tank and mech gunnery. It is very realistic. M1 Tank Platoon 2 is realistic in that you have to constantly stay aware of where you and your other vehicles are. Almost too realistic...kinda stresses me out again, LOL!
Computers are great devices for keeping the mind active. Part of the fun for me is getting them ready, running diagnostics like memtest, Prime95, 3DMark, scandisk, etc to thoroughly stress each component.
I'm still working on completing M1TP2. Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep you guys posted!!!!
I'm still working on completing M1TP2.
Indeed we should try to stick to the M1TP2and try to explore all and any aspect of its gameplay.
For good or for bad alike.
What I mean by saying "for good" is that we may discover something in the gameplay of M1TP2 which wasn't known to us before, and for "bad" if this discovery will lead us to establish that the game was not really finished as purported in the manual or guides.
I hope that we persist in this task and hopefully, we can gather other members of this community to join and enjoy this trip into the past with us.
:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:
RetroGamer
10-11-21, 08:20 PM
#1. - I am playing the game without the update. At some point I intend to install the update and see what the differences are. CITV - I designate a target for the gunner and he does not engage it. I get the voice command for the gunner to acquire the target, but nothing happens.
#2. - One probably could do Bounding over watch with two platoons by setting waypoints and having them timed. It seems that would be incredibly hard and useless once contact is made, but I’d like to actually try what’s described in the manual.
#3. - Once enemy contact is made, slow your tanks down. If you rush in, you’ll all get killed.
#4. - if your down to your last tank, END IT! Shift + Q. If your platoon dies, you can’t continue. This was just like the original 1989 game.
I’ve beaten both training campaigns and three of the other 5 campaigns. The Moldavia campaign is difficult because of the terrain, and I’ve lost that one.
This title has not been fully explored yet! Keep at it!!!
#1. - I am playing the game without the update. At some point I intend to install the update and see what the differences are.
Here are the official changes. What I have heard and remember about patch 1.2 that it had radically chaged the effectiveness of the air support. Do not remember exactly but I think it "dumbed it" or the opposite.
===================
M1 TANK PLATOON II
Version 1.2 (Includes v1.1)
MicroProse
May 18, 1998
===================
Updates in M1 Tank Platoon II
=============================
Please Unzip the M1TP2v1-2.zip file directly into the M1 directory.
This document addresses issues from M1 Tank Platoon II, including fixed bugs, altered
controls, and new additions to the game. For further information, consult the original
M1 Tank Platoon II Readme.txt file or the FAQ at Microprose's Web Site, www.MicroProse.com.
==========================
Fixes (As of this version):
==========================
Divide Errors encountered by some players should be gone now.
========================
Fixes (From Version 1.1):
========================
CITV Target Designation - Designating targets for the gunner now functions properly in the
Tank Commander's Cockpit Screen. When designating a target in the CITV of the TC Cockpit,
the Gunner will automatically drop what he is doing and engage the enemy target.
Shooting through Forests - Now, neither friendly nor enemy vehicles will fire on targets
through forests.
Seam Removed in Glide Mode - The "seam" in the sky visible when playing in Glide mode has
been removed.
Joystick Controls Function Properly - The joystick hat will now load the selected ammo
round as per the manual. Joystick buttons 2 to 4 work according to the manual. In addition
to this, a continual button press will not bounce.
Threatening Helicopters - In this patch, helo engagements have been tweaked to stop the
truce between helos and to make the helos more of a balanced threat to tanks (and your
helos and enemy tanks).
Override Gunner Ammo Selection - Now the ammo you choose will override the computer
gunner's choice. This will not change until you relinquish control of the gunner or the
gunner has destroyed the current target.
COAX Does Not Affect Main Gun Round - You can now switch back and forth from a Main Gun
round to the COAX without having to reload the Main Gun round.
No Main Round Bursts - The Main Gun will fire one and only one Main Round at a time.
CITV Inoperable when Damaged - When the CITV is damaged, you see a blank screen in the Tank
Commander's Cockpit.
Gunner's Primary Sight Inoperable when Damaged - Just like the CITV, the GPS will be blank
if gunner or both gunner and tank commander are killed.
50 Cal. No Longer Functions when TC is Dead - If the tank commander is dead, you can no
longer manipulate the 50 cal. Machine gun.
Keyboard Commands Function Correctly - Keyboard commands (hotkeys) now work according to
the manual.
Multiplayer Fixes - The Multiplayer game is much more reliable. Synch problems have been
addressed, and the Host can no longer jump into other players' tanks. Player names are now
associated with in-game chat messages (which stay on screen much longer). Also, other
players' smoke grenades show on your screen.
Voodoo Rush Support - Voodoo Rush cards are now supported in Glide Mode.
==============================
Changes (as of this version):
==============================
When using the Primary Gunner's Sight, you will notice that the gun moves much more slowly than
in the zoomed in (x10) view then in the normal (x3) view. This will allows for better targeting
and tracking at long and medium ranges.
==========================
Changes (as of Ver 1.1) :
==========================
Damaged Tanks Pop Smoke - In this patch, both friendly and enemy vehicles will pop smoke to
cover their tracks when damaged.
Mouse/Joystick Pan Control in Chase View - Now, both the mouse and joystick control panning
in the Chase View. The joystick functions automatically, a left mouse click takes control
and a right click stops panning. (Similar to the way the GPS and Outhatch views function.)
Additional Art in the Outhatch View - The tank's hull and turret are now visible in the
TC Outhatch view, which gives the tank commander added situational awareness.
50 Cal. Movement Relative to Turret - In the patch, the 50 cal. will turn and bounce
relative to the turret and to tank movement. Pressing the [K] key will stabilize the
machine gun, like in the original game.
CITV Turret Clock Made Larger - The CITV turret clock has been enlarged and is much easier
to read.
Tank Commanders' Life Expectancy - Tank Commanders using the 50 Cal. are now more likely
to be killed by artillery and enemy fire.
More Explanatory Messages - More explanatory text messages have been added for features
such as Arrow-key Driving, Smoke Generators ON/OFF, and AIR/GROUND mode.
Interior Cockpit Views - Interior cockpit views have been altered according to the time of
day of the mission. (i.e.: In night battles, your cockpits will appear darker than during
day missions.)
=====================
Additions:
=====================
Bino View and Night Vision - Binoculars and Night Vision Goggles (NVG) have been added to
the TC Outhatch view. The [Z] and [X] keys toggle binos on and off and the [T] key toggles
Night Vision on and off.
Artillery-Delivered Smoke - Artillery-Delivered Smoke has been added for Assault missions
and Movements to Contact to cover your platoon's movement. Smoke can be called the same
way as other artillery. (High detail only.)
Hull to Gun ([Shift]-[G]) - Now, you can move your hull's position relative to the turret,
so as to provide maximum protection when engaging targets. [Shift]-[G] in the TC Outhatch
will turn the hull to the 50 Cal.'s current direction. [Shift]-[G] in the TC Cockpit will
turn the hull to the CITV's current direction.
Menu Bar Animation ON/OFF - Menu bar animations can be turned on and off in the
Configuration screen.
Contour Line Highlights in the Main Map - Pressing the [L] key will toggle contour lines
on and off. This makes viewing terrain elevation levels much easier in the Map Screen.
[Alt]-[F] Key Removes Flicker - Pressing [Alt]-[F] will remove Battleplanner/Map Screen
flicker on video cards that do not support "DDraw BlitSync" function. (With the Diamond
Joystick - Remember, if you have "drift" problems, or other control problems, please make
sure you are in the main joystick port. If you have more then one, this could cause a problem.
Viper 330, hitting [Alt]-[F] will correct Main Screen blackout.)
CITV - I designate a target for the gunner and he does not engage it. I get the voice command for the gunner to acquire the target, but nothing happens.
Keep the mouse button depressed on the target until Gunner fires the gun.
RetroGamer
10-11-21, 10:43 PM
Keep the mouse button depressed on the target until Gunner fires the gun.
That would explain it! I’m not using the mouse in the game for anything except the F8 outside view at the beginning of every mission.
I’ll experiment with that and look at the manual again. Maybe holding the joystick trigger down would also work. I’ll check it out, thanks.
It also may have to do with the changes patch M1TPv1.2 introduced .1st paragraph
========================
Fixes (From Version 1.1):
========================
CITV Target Designation - Designating targets for the gunner now functions properly in the
Tank Commander's Cockpit Screen. When designating a target in the CITV of the TC Cockpit,
the Gunner will automatically drop what he is doing and engage the enemy target.
What has been said about designating the target from CITV in Search or Hunter Killer mode appears to be indeed not working. Patch 1.2 despite the claim that it was corrected did not really help. That part is buggy and requires some further study. Page 34 in the manual to go by the book.
Note: it works sometimes but I cannot pinpoint really when.
RetroGamer
10-13-21, 03:31 AM
What has been said about designating the target from CITV in Search or Hunter Killer mode appears to be indeed not working. Patch 1.2 despite the claim that it was corrected did not really help. That part is buggy and requires some further study. Page 34 in the manual to go by the book.
Note: it works sometimes but I cannot pinpoint really when.
Copy that, thanks. I’ve been playing computer games since the early ‘80s and noticed there’s a pattern or method to winning almost every game.
In Mechwarrior 2, for example, you could beat the game with the smallest mech by circling your enemy as fast as possible while shooting at them. It got to the point where I could take down any enemy mech while they couldn’t hit me.
In Armored Fist, 1994, as another example, there are procedures that if followed, will allow you to win every mission. Pause at the beginning of every mission and set platoons to Experienced, Wedge formation, Slow, and Road March. If any enemy armor is encountered, lock on it, call for arty, face toward it, pop smoke, then back up to cover. The game is not realistic so arty kills all tanks.
I haven’t quite figured out M1TP2 yet. I will be successful when I’ve beaten every campaign and every single mission on hard mode. Right now, I’m still learning the game.
This may take a while.
I’m sure you’ve seen these articles:
https://web.archive.org/web/20020301155814/http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/turret/m1tp2/m1tp2strat.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20020825001820/http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/turret/m1tp2/cl/m1clhard.html
If not, they’re good reading. I seriously cannot believe it’s been 20 years! I do remember these discussions - especially the hate for Hasbro for canceling the Tank Platoon and Gunship sequels. Seems like yesterday to me.
No matter - this software was great in 1999 and still is in 2021!!!
If there’s a way to record gameplay within Win98, I’ll give it a try for uploading to YouTube. Maybe An early version of Fraps would work. Worst case, I’ll just record the monitor.
I’ll keep you guys posted on the progress!
So I think I have cracked this CITV problem.
1st, I think, patch M1TP2 v1.2 is needed as they addressed this problem in the code.
2nd of course be in the Search mode key "]" and have CITV on
3rd is to issue Fire At Will "F" order before each shooting session as it sometimes defaults to Hold Fire for unknown to me yet reasons.
Then interesting part is also to issue type of the weapon order as the Gunner prefers to waste MPAT and STAFF for even near targets.
Indeed I agree, that having ample time and opportunity to study each game reveals sometimes richer gameplay and nice interesting secrets. In fact, I may even suggest that pressed by duties of RL we often have been (and still are) running from game to game without even dipping deeper in them which is a total loss to us and perhaps really a waste of time. After all very smart people created those games and simulations and I am sure they did not spare their efforts and ingenuity to make them smart too.
Keep rolling!
Also...
knowing and understanding the manual (in this case of CITV page 34 ) is the key
If
the current target is out of range or cannot be shot at immediately for any
other reason, the gun will engage the new designated target. You must
hold the CITV on the target until the gun is laid on. In this mode, the firing
data is not available, with the exception of the READY TO FIRE box, which
lights to indicate the gun is on the designated target and the CITV is free
to search again.
Although...
Actually, take sometimes manual with a grain of salt.
The link from Wayback Machine with supporting strategy tips and articles is super and truly solves any ambiguities between a manual, currently installed game patches and action.
Here is about CITV truly a key document without which one of the most crucial and important to the gameplay TC station may be misunderstood and in jeopardy!
M1TP2 Combat Lesson:
Using the CITV
by David Webster
https://web.archive.org/web/20020319.../m1clcitv.html
Few screenshots from training mission Glide with dgVoodo2. Not too shabby for this old Girl!
https://i.ibb.co/bjhq3qT/M1-TP2-y-P6pkyi-UVo.png (https://ibb.co/KcZRGRd)
https://i.ibb.co/kxvKTvF/M1-TP2-Yi-E8t-CTKFn.jpg (https://ibb.co/bPD1VDn)
https://i.ibb.co/xmqSjH2/Clipboard01.gif (https://ibb.co/jVkvMR8)
https://ibb.co/KcZRGRd
https://ibb.co/bPD1VDn
https://ibb.co/jVkvMR8
:yeah:
RetroGamer
10-13-21, 08:24 PM
Few screenshots from training mission Glide with dgVoodo2. Not too shabby for this old Girl!
https://i.ibb.co/bjhq3qT/M1-TP2-y-P6pkyi-UVo.png (https://ibb.co/KcZRGRd)
https://i.ibb.co/kxvKTvF/M1-TP2-Yi-E8t-CTKFn.jpg (https://ibb.co/bPD1VDn)
https://i.ibb.co/xmqSjH2/Clipboard01.gif (https://ibb.co/jVkvMR8)
https://ibb.co/KcZRGRd
https://ibb.co/bPD1VDn
https://ibb.co/jVkvMR8
:yeah:
That’s looking good!! I’m happy with the way it’s working on my legacy PC but the graphics are clearer on yours.
It’s interesting that emulating and using “wrappers” and such can make old games run better than they ever did in their native environment.
I really need to get an identical Creative Voodoo2 card and try SLI. There’s no AGP slot in my vintage PC so I should grab the best PCI graphics Direct 3D card that has Win98 drivers while I’m at it. I also need to max the memory which is either 128 or 256MB. (I have to look that up). Right now I’m at the stock 64 MB.
Regarding gameplay and patches - all the things described in the patch, I’ve encountered.
It’ll be interesting to upgrade the game and spot the differences.
RetroGamer
10-14-21, 10:39 PM
Update:
I completed 4 of the 5 campaigns tonight. I’m playing them in “reverse” order (right to left). The one I just finished was the “Moldavia” campaign and it seemed to go on forever.
If I remember the original M1 Tank Platoon gameplay correctly, a player could do well, almost complete a campaign, then almost lose and have to fight more battles to finish it. M1 Tank Platoon 2 appears to function the same way.
This is a really good game but like anything worthwhile, it takes effort. I can only play it one hour at a time, max before I get tired. Yeah, I’m definitely too old for the real thing if a game is kicking my a**!!! (Truthfully, every time I put on the uniform, it seems I was instantly tired, hungry and freaking freezing cold! I don’t know if I could handle those physical hardships now! War is a young man’s game.)
Once I’ve completed the 5th campaign, I’m going to attempt them all one more time on the ”hard” setting. I think the key is to move slow as soon as enemy contact is made and hit shift + q if you’re down to your last tank and aren’t gonna make it.
More updates to follow!:salute:
I have found some of the strategy and tactics tips and compiled them. Maybe you find them of some interest in your campaign journey:
Link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kvdg4pb6cy0s49/M1TP2%20Strategy%20Guide%20Part1%2B2.zip?dl=0
Also here is the link to the old Archives of Combatsim Armor forum with some pertaining posts to M1TP2.
http://www.combatsim.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=7&hardset=1000&start_point=0
RetroGamer
10-16-21, 12:47 PM
I have found some of the strategy and tactics tips and compiled them. Maybe you find them of some interest in your campaign journey:
Link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kvdg4pb6cy0s49/M1TP2%20Strategy%20Guide%20Part1%2B2.zip?dl=0
Also here is the link to the old Archives of Combatsim Armor forum with some pertaining posts to M1TP2.
http://www.combatsim.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=7&hardset=1000&start_point=0
Wow, thanks! Yes, I find reading up on M1TP2 gameplay to be very interesting. It is sad that the game appears to have been totally abandoned for Steel Beasts. I don't think that way - if something was good decades ago, it's still good!!!
I have not given Steel Beasts a real chance and suspect I'm not interested because it's too realistic.
Back in the day, we'd have to "qualify" all Bradley crews on ranges which are modeled after tank gunnery ranges. The Table VIII range qualification was the individual vehicle crew qualification range.
Table XII was the platoon level qualification range.
There was tremendous pressure on us to make sure everybody was trained up and qualified. We ran crews through day and night and were running into serious sleep deprivation. Yeah....firing the 25mm Bradley main gun on the range was NOT fun. However gunnery and playing tank PC games IS fun! Very odd!!!
Thanks for the links! I just completed all 5 campaigns but it doesn't count because I did it on "Easy" mode. Now that I know what I'm doing, I'm going to re-attempt on "Hard" mode. I've also got two 128MB sticks of memory scheduled to arrive next week. I'm not sure if more memory will improve how the game runs or not - probably won't make a difference. I'm also on the hunt for a Creative 3Dfx card so I can run M1TP2 in SLI mode. The additional card might make the sim look even better. It actually looks fine now.
Redcon-1, continuing mission, out!
It is sad that the game appears to have been totally abandoned for Steel Beasts. I don't think that way - if something was good decades ago, it's still good!!!
Agree100%, if it is good it stays good.
And for us, little older folks what counts more is the good and deep gameplay, and not so much the wrapping ...the flashy graphics. Yes, the graphics count nowadays too, but graphics alone without the depth of the game did not leave any lasting memory or affection. However, those are the values known and understood well by the older generation of gamers and they are rather sadly not the leading factor among gamers now.
It is sad that the game appears to have been totally abandoned for Steel Beasts.
I have not given Steel Beasts a real chance and suspect I'm not interested because it's too realistic.
I again agree that Steel Beasts1 have learned from the experience and sometimes shortcomings of earlier M1TP2 and they took really the advantage of that. I am saying this not in a negative way just stating the fact that SB1 and then SBProPE is in many aspects more realistic and perhaps because of that ... for some of us more advanced and perhaps naturally better.
I would stick to M1TP2 for as long as it takes to really learn and explore that simulation, but (at least for me) it is a stepping stone to reexplore all tank simulations with a better understanding of the character, tactics, and strategy of modern tank battlefield.
Yours, it is a very special case as you have experienced the sweat, stress, and discomforts of armor vehicle training and you are not seeking to learn any more truth or realism above and beyond to what you already well know and remember. But maybe ...one day.
I've also got two 128MB sticks of memory scheduled to arrive next week. I'm not sure if more memory will improve how the game runs or not - probably won't make a difference. I'm also on the hunt for a Creative 3Dfx card so I can run M1TP2 in SLI mode. The additional card might make the sim look even better. It actually looks fine now.
I see you go all the way into 3dfx immersion. Looking forward to seeing some shots.
:salute:
RetroGamer
10-17-21, 01:52 AM
M1TP2 Observations:
On one mission, I was out of main gun ammo and was headed toward some BTRs and possibly a few BMPs. The reality is that the .50cal will “cut those vehicles to cheese” (a quote from an NCO back in the ‘80s when I asked him about .50 cal vs APCs).
So, I decided to cut loose and sure enough blew up the remainder of enemy APCs - about half dozen or so with the .50 cal. That was pretty good, ha ha! I could barely see the enemy vehicles but could see them explode when I hit them. I haven’t read everything on this sim but don’t recall that topic being discussed. Just FYI info.
I created a new platoon in an attempt to dominate M1TP2 on the Hard setting. Nope - not proficient enough yet. Got the whole platoon killed on campaign 1, mission 1. I might retry all campaigns on Normal instead until I get better.
Regarding reality vs computer simulations - I recall Ssnake discussing this in the SB1 manual - there’s no way really to compare a computer sim to actual gunnery. You can get close in the hand/eye coordination area only, maybe.
So - from that point of view, none of these sims are truly realistic. All that matters is that you’re enjoying the challenge of beating a program that a team of programmers wrote. So, don’t feel guilty for enjoying something as “unrealistic” as Mechwarrior 3 or Armored Fist 1, I don’t!
The most fun game for me has always been Armored Fist 1 (1994), FWIW. You can pretend you’re commanding a Company Team of mech and armor and have a pretty good time. And yes, gamers today care a lot about graphics, including my own son. He is perplexed as to why I play old tank games that look crude compared to Call of Duty or some other FPS with beautiful graphics. I explained that it’s not about the graphics, it’s about getting immersed in defeating the game!!! He doesn’t get it. It’s ok, lol!!
Back to M1TP2 - I might try something crazy….since there are 3 different M1TP2 versions that I am aware of, - unpatched, v 1.1, and v 1.2 - I wonder if I would corrupt my fragile Win98 OS if I tried to install all 3 versions in different directories.
Maybe upgrade to 1.1, then install the unpatched version again in a different location. Upgrade it to 1.2, then install the unpatched version yet again in a different directory. Just a thought. I might attempt this when I tire of playing it.
I’d forgotten how unstable Win98 is! Something like that could easily corrupt the registry and cause blue screens or other odd behavior. I installed Panzer Commander and iPanzer’44 a few days ago and Win98 got them confused with each other. iPanzer’44 ended up having Panzer Commander’s icon associated with it and I couldn’t fix it. I was never thrilled with either title so I uninstalled both for now.
More updates to follow on the mission to defeat and dominate M1TP2 with the legacy IBM Aptiva desktop rescue PC!!!!
The most obsolete and needing of the change in M1TP2 is its modeling of the trees and forest patches. Frankly, this is totally archaic and pretty much even strange looking to anyone today.
I remember, that 1998 was the time that from the performance reasons forests were depicted as solid and unpenetrable blocks (EECH comes to my mind), but programmers and graphics artists at MPS here simplified the thing too much but making those blocks straight and linear.
As a temporary fix, I do while playing it today is either change the venue of the scenario to desert by simply replacing names and location of the map in the Battles text files. I know that this affects the gameplay as those crude (!) blocks are meant to hide the OPFOR.
Gunship! made the improvement to this, but it was still not as good as eSim had done in SB1. Trees and forests were IMHO one of the most important component of the combat land simulation.
RetroGamer
10-17-21, 11:36 AM
The most obsolete and needing of the change in M1TP2 is its modeling of the trees and forest patches. Frankly, this is totally archaic and pretty much even strange looking to anyone today.
Gunship! made the improvement to this, but it was still not as good as eSim had done in SB1. Trees and forests were IMHO one of the most important component of the combat land simulation.
All very true! I gotta get me a copy of Gunship!
The last tank sim I bought was T-72, I think back in 2006. That one was a quantum leap forward graphics-wise with even the terrain being deformable. I ordered it online and it came with two very cool labeled CDs and a great paper manual. The whole thing arrived in my mailbox in a brown envelope and it gave my computer a serious workout.
T-72 was a very hard game, nobody’s computer was good enough to run it at the time, and it failed miserably. I beat that sucker more than once.
M1TP2 and Steel Beasts did something right, though. For the first time, a player could manipulate the joystick with skill and lase and hit the target. iM1A2 had that modeled pretty accurately as well but I couldn’t get into it, unfortunately.
I’m probably gonna have to take a break as the wife is getting mad at me for playing too much, ha ha ha!!! (I know everybody’s been there!) :haha:
wife is getting mad at me for playing too much, ha ha ha!!! (I know everybody’s been there!)
Smoke grenades won't work here I am sure... Slow down then.
RetroGamer
10-21-21, 06:07 AM
I pulled the original 64MB RAM stick and replaced it with two 128MB sticks. I ran some 3DMark99, 2000, and 2001 benchmarks and noticed it’s running slower!
I am not entirely surprised. Even though I ran memtest for 24 hours and it passed, my current setup is not as fast.
M1TP2 still runs ok.
Now - if I could just play it more proficiently….I keep getting the whole platoon killed on the normal and hard modes!!
RetroGamer
10-21-21, 08:38 AM
https://youtu.be/1JSY3sgDid8
I am pretty satisfied with how M1TPII plays.
It might be fun to try out a few vintage graphics cards to see how good it can get.
If anybody knows how to do a proper video capture from within Windows 98, please send some details.
As I recall Fraps was the thing back then. I’ll do some research.
For screenshot:
Press the combination [ALT]-[Print Screen] simultaneously.
this will capture the window graphics and store in the clipboard.
FRAPS for video.
One thing which is for sure superior in 3Dfx is smoke or to be more general - transparency and semitransparency rendering.
About being more proficient in M1TP2 it is my opinion that the maps are too small and they do not allow for more efficient maneuvering of the friendly units around OPFOR. A 2x size map would be IMHO better and I was hoping to try to mod that.
RetroGamer
10-21-21, 01:34 PM
One thing which is for sure superior in 3Dfx is smoke or to be more general - transparency and semitransparency rendering.
About being more proficient in M1TP2 it is my opinion that the maps are too small and they do not allow for more efficient maneuvering of the friendly units around OPFOR. A 2x size map would be IMHO better and I was hoping to try to mod that.
If you can mod the map, that’s impressive!
A few other observations about realism - which is kind of a ridiculous subject…
There should be a way to designate sectors of fire. I recall at the Infantry Officer Basic Course (IOBC) back in the ‘80s, there was in-depth discussion about everyone engaging the same target, blowing it to hell, only to have an unobserved enemy element fire upon your unit, while you’re distracted over killing the 1st target.
On Bradley Table XII, which is the platoon level qualification at Fort Hood, we would be “gigged” or docked points if somebody fired on a target outside of his sector of fire. That was a major part of our eval, come to think of it.
I noticed in M1TP2, sometimes somebody would fire upon my target right as I’m about to engage. True, I was Bradley Mech, not Armor, but the principle is the same.
Also, something that I find humorous- tanks running into each other! Lol!!! Maybe that happens in war (I never saw any action in theatre so I do not know), but in training, that’s also MAJOR and requires an investigation if it happens. I think everyone involved in the collision is mandated to report to the medics and I’d have to do an accident report. Anyway, that’s going on all the time in M1TP2 as you all know.
One final laugh - Bradley IFVs traveling cross country with the TOW launchers up. That’s another big no-no…my gunner relayed to me that can seriously damage the launcher or at least it’s calibration.
I admit it’s kind of fun knowing a little bit about this subject and observing the game companies’ sometimes inaccurate take on things.
Here’s another one that keeps popping in my head - “Always scan in low mag, sir!” I was kind of admonished by my gunner in the COFT simulator for scanning for targets in High-mag. In M1TP2, I’m always scanning in low mag as a result….I can still hear the disgust in SSG Guzman’s voice, lol!
I guess I’m on a roll - the OP Order…wow, what they’re depicting in the game is far from what we were taught. It should be one sentence that relays, “we are successful when ___ happens”. It’s ok. I don’t really like 100% realism.
I admit it’s kind of fun knowing a little bit about this subject and observing the game companies’ sometimes inaccurate take on things.
this is the "cherry on the cake" in this thread. :rock:
Always scan in the low mag, sir!
a good one and in a way very intuitive, as one can cover much more of the surroundings and do it faster.
Bradley IFVs traveling cross country with the TOW launchers up]...[ can seriously damage the launcher or at least it’s calibration
nice detail to know.
Tanks running into each other
that maybe could be cured.
There should be a way to designate sectors of fire.
we need to dig into mission editing.. its all a text file, but some are not.
Just wish more people expressed interest in this old great tank simulation.
Question: are the tanks in the platoon marked in any way to differentiate the Platoon Leader, Platoon Sgt and both wingmen?
RetroGamer
10-22-21, 08:44 AM
Question: are the tanks in the platoon marked in any way to differentiate the Platoon Leader, Platoon Sgt and both wingmen?
There were no obvious markings other than stenciled vehicle numbers that you could only see close up.
Each Bradley CFV and IFV had a number stenciled on the back. We were working with M1 tank platoons, and as I recall the tanks and every vehicle had a marking denoting it’s specific unit but there was nothing other than that.
Mine, for example, was HQ #301 if I remember correctly. The scout platoon was technically part of the headquarters company even though we reported directly to the battalion commander.
The vehicle designations described in the M1TP2 manual appear accurate and were similar to how our vehicles were marked. FM 17-98 was my main guide book back in the day. I studied it religiously in the fall and winter of 1990!
There’s a flaw in the logic of the scout platoon mission in that “what can be seen can be hit, what can be hit can be killed” - our mission was to gain and maintain contact with the enemy - apparently without being seen….in a two story tall screaming M3 CFV!
We carried twice the ammo as a standard M2 IFV, but we were not to engage.
Upon studying tactics, I came to the conclusion the scouts mission is basically to get out in front of the battalion and if we get destroyed, the main force knows where the enemy is! The awfulness of that was discussed in the first M1 Tank Platoon manual!! Sending vehicles out to see what shoots at them. That was an effective tactic in the first game even though it was frowned upon.
I came to the conclusion we should’ve been on motorcycles or something quiet and camo’d up. You can’t sneak around in an M3 Bradley CFV. You will be seen - and hit. I would’ve preferred a hummer with the windshield down and top off but even that’s a bit loud.
More trivia - around that time, there were only two PC games depicting platoon level armored combat. M1 Tank Platoon (the best) and Armored Fist 1994 (the most fun for me). Ed Dille wrote the Armored Fist Strategy Guide which was fun reading. I also noticed he is credited in the M1TP2 manual. His name also appears as a tank crewman on the platoon roster in the game!!
I enjoyed Armored Fist immensely because it was a civilian’s take on the subject. That game was just really interesting. They got some stuff right, some was total fantasy, probably because everything was classified then.
Fun memories…ancient history now.
RetroGamer
10-22-21, 11:10 AM
It’s been years but I recall some units did have their own markings on the rear of their vehicles. I believe that was a unit-specific SOP.
They consisted of symbols. Our unit had no such markings, however.
Oh, and full disclosure….I am by no means an expert in any of this stuff. I was a young lieutenant in the National Guard, put charge of a cavalry scout platoon in the fall of 1990. I was light infantry prior to that so I had to learn mech and armor specific tactics quick. By April of 1991 we had done about 6 months on active duty which included an NTC rotation. By May 1991 it was all over.
To be an effective leader, you must be able to function on very little sleep in uncomfortable weather conditions. You must be able to pay attention during briefings and pick out what’s specific to your platoon, then brief the PSG and section leaders.
It sucked, big time! I wasn’t always the greatest at it, either but I tried. You have to be patient when things break, too. CVC helmets, final drives, the main gun, radios…they all broke down which I did not have the patience for.
Yup - ancient history now. I still enjoy armor simulations on the PC because when you’re tired, you can quit and rest!!
Great insights and memories RG! Thanks.
Here is another great and revealing piece by Ssnake from SB1 manual on how is difficult to convey and simulate real "tanking" on PC :
PHYSICAL STRESS
You don’t have to do hard labor on your PC. A tank crew member has to do a lot of manual labor. Each round weighs about 25 kilograms, and there are 42 to load into a tank. The loader will jump in and out of the tank numerous times a day.
The whole crew will probably sleep only two to four hours a day for weeks. It stinks.
It’s loud inside a tank. You may not wash yourself for days, and then you get some ice cubes instead of a warm and comfortable shower. The rolling motion of the moving tank might cause nausea -- somebody’s barfing into a rubber boot, but the tank won’t stop. Boring routine for hours, days, even weeks.
Then an enemy attack, all of a sudden. And it’s over even before you fully realize that there was a threat to your life!
If you care to simulate the routine day of a tanker, here’s what you can do. (Take care to avoid all social contact, though, or you may find yourself under sedation in a rubber room.) Once you’re alone, stop washing for a couple of days19. Then start 19 OK, if it’s absolutely necessary, use a bowl of ice water. Shave yourself with a blade, but no foam! Use face paint afterward, and diesel fuel as a deodorant.
Exercise by repeatedly climbing some dressers in your bedroom. Fold yourself into a locker for a few hours, and then start weight-lifting your 17“ monitor. Avoid sleeping for more than three hours per day - in the locker, of course! Use duct tape and fix yourself to your seat.
RetroGamer
10-22-21, 04:43 PM
Great insights and memories RG! Thanks.
Here is another great and revealing piece by Ssnake from SB1 manual on how is difficult to convey and simulate real "tanking" on PC :
I do remember reading that as well. It’s very accurate. I think my experience would’ve been more enjoyable if my platoon and battalion as a whole had lived and trained together a little longer. Everything was rush, rush, rush….no sleep, constant field training.
I really did not know WTF I was doing at first which was horrifying. In retrospect, I should’ve gotten the whole platoon together and started troubleshooting the radios and intercoms. The same care we take of our desktop PCs nowadays should’ve been done on our electronic commo equipment back then. The stuff was always broken which infuriated me. I didn’t know enough about it at the time, unfortunately. Contact cleaner, reinforcing cables with heat shrink tubing or tape, maybe….anything to make that stuff more durable. A CVC helmet for example, had little tiny wires - like something from cheap Walmart headphones, connected to the mic. They were always broken or about to break. We should’ve re-wired and rebuilt all that stuff because commo is the key to coordination. I’m sure all the Army’s stuff is different now,
A gunner in a Bradley or Tank, or LAV could actually have some job satisfaction if everything works right. We did get very proficient right at the end. My Bradley crew and I ended up with an almost perfect score on one of those range qualifications. The tracking of moving targets and fire commands in M1TP2 is very accurate.
I also pulled the trigger on another Voodoo2 3Dfx card. It may or may not work in SLI mode with my existing card. I’ll find out. If it does, I’ll make some M1TP2 Fraps recordings of gameplay in SLI. If it just doesn’t work, oh well - I’ve taken it as far as I can.
The only way my 1999 era computer can communicate with the outside world is via CDs. I’m not sure it’s even capable of burning CDs, only reading them. I don’t think a USB thumb drive would work, either.
I may just end up putting the iPhone in front of the screen because I don’t know how I’d get the movie files off the thing and onto my laptop.
I’ll keep you posted.
I don’t think a USB thumb drive would work, either.
In one of the early posts you said that usb joystick worked so you have USB ports probable in the back.
RetroGamer
10-22-21, 11:04 PM
In one of the early posts you said that usb joystick worked so you have USB ports probable in the back.
Absolutely correct. The ports are there but if I plugged a modern day 16 GB USB thumb drive in there, the fragile Win98 OS will probably give me a BSOD, LOL!!!
Maybe not…I might give it a shot.. Windows 98 is really unstable. It’s blue screened on me for just running DXDIAG. I noticed if I run a 3DMark benchmark after playing a 3D game, it sometimes locks up.
If I can get a USB drive to work, or be able to burn a CD, we might be in business.
RetroGamer
10-26-21, 07:52 PM
https://i.imgur.com/GvEdhtd.jpg
This afternoon, my second Voodoo2 card eBay purchase arrived. I eagerly plugged it in to test it and….nothing. It wasn’t even detected by the PC.
I tried a different PCI slot and the desktop PC wouldn’t even boot.
I then reinstalled it in the original slot that I’d tried the first time and it worked! The only explanation I have is that the card probably hadn’t been used in over 20 years and the capacitors or other parts just needed to charge and wake up a bit. I’m not sure.
I then connected and installed both Voodoo2cards in SLI mode and ran the 3DMark2000 benchmark, then 3DMark99 max and finally 3DMark2001. Guess what?
There was ZERO performance increase, LOl!!!!
The reported memory shows it’s double what it was and the voodoo display software shows the memory has doubled, but aside from that, there is no difference….I do find that a little funny even tho I’m a bit disappointed.
M1TP2 runs and looks great but it was great before the install.
Maybe I need to try different drivers.
Anyway - it was a fun experiment for M1TP2 and me.
UPDATE:
Further research indicates I am likely using the wrong drivers and wrong benchmark programs. For the purposes of getting the most out of M1TP2, I’m going to try different Voodoo2 drivers.
http://falconfly.3dfx.pl/voodoo2.htm
The game looks good now, it’s just the frame rate could be improved.
The jerkiness be improved by my installing one of the M1TP2 patches. Once I get this thing smoothed out, back to reports and hopefully media of gameplay!
I remember I had 2 Voodoo cards and SLI. What I do not remember what happened to that computer and the other thing is which of the cards the video cord is attached to? It does not matter or it does matter?
RetroGamer
10-28-21, 08:30 AM
I remember I had 2 Voodoo cards and SLI. What I do not remember what happened to that computer and the other thing is which of the cards the video cord is attached to? It does not matter or it does matter?
Copy that. I missed that entire era of 3dfx. I was using computers but the games I was into weren’t 3D accelerated.
This is all new to me and I’m having a lot of fun with it. After some research, I came up with the photos below. I suspect it does matter how everything is connected.
I learned that if a program or benchmark isn’t written for 3dfx, SLI will make no difference. If it is, it’s fantastic! I replayed Star Wars Racer (the kids and I played that in 1999), and that game looks unbelievable!
M1TP2 looks great too. I think I’ve gotten it running the best I can. All that’s left is to install the game patches. One of them, I remember smooths out the CITV engagement function and makes it less jerky.
https://i.imgur.com/h1ECDo4.png
https://i.imgur.com/AeVUzH0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MLPIB25.png
I’m working on getting Fraps and a USB drive working with this legacy rig. I might set up a dedicated YouTube channel just for M1TP2 gameplay. There are other videos out there but the demonstrators usually don’t really know how to play and it’s kind of annoying.
I gotta show everybody what this game can do!!!!
All looks as per the schematic. :up:
The main card is Matrox. Do you have all the best drivers for all that?
:Kaleun_Applaud:
RetroGamer
10-28-21, 12:20 PM
All looks as per the schematic. :up:
The main card is Matrox. Do you have all the best drivers for all that?
:Kaleun_Applaud:
Oh, those photos are images I pulled from the internet during my research.
My main card is an onboard 8MB ATI Rage 3D Pro (reported by Windows). The BIOS sees it as an ATI MACH 64. When I first refurbished this PC, I used the latest (wrong) drivers for the onboard video and it ran all 3DMark tests slow. I tracked down the drivers that an Aptiva E530 came with and those run all three 3DMark Win98 tests (99, 2000, & 2001) a lot faster even though those driver were older.
Short answer: Yes, I believe I have the best drivers available for onboard video.
As you can see, it’s a pretty basic, old PC (formerly in used by an accountant)
https://i.imgur.com/NqbjxfT.jpg
RetroGamer
10-28-21, 12:26 PM
https://i.imgur.com/GvEdhtd.jpg
In case anybody is wondering….PCI slot #1 is completely useless! It is blocked by the big green capacitors and heat sinks!!
The only card that could go in there is one of those odd shaped ones - those are typically sound cards. Upon further inspection - no card can fit there.
I don’t think there are any more video upgrades physically possible. There’s just no room. I’m happy onboard video is passable. I’m also lucky that the onboard sound card has DOS drivers for MS-DOS mode. There’s just no more room for anything else in the case.
Here is our 1st potential "homework" in trying to remove some bugs or odd behavior in M1TP2.
Problem:
Vehicles sometimes collide when spawned.
Video:
collision
http://youtu.be/qB8t5j9505M
no collision
http://youtu.be/aa6mNMRE8yI
Possible solution ...TBC and edited in this post.
RetroGamer
11-06-21, 05:04 PM
I gave the 3dfx-enabled IBM Aptiva a break and took out a different Win98 PC to try M1TP2 on.
Absolute fail using a GeForce 3 Ti200 AGP card with 128MB video RAM. If I disable 3D acceleration, it plays in software mode but that stinks!
I even tried an older GeForce 2 AGP card, same result. Videos play but the game crashes or locks up at the 1st screen.
I updated M1TP2, disabled the 3D acceleration, setup D3D in the configuration, and tried again with 3D acceleration enabled. It did not work.
The PC I’m using is an old dell running Win98 at 1.8 GHz. I would’ve liked to see the performance with those specs but nope.
Does anybody know which direct 3D cards work with M1TP2? I’m not opposed to buying a card known to work with the game.
As far as correcting gameplay - you guys are way ahead of me. I’m still learning how to play it!!
It is rather difficult to advise what to use with W98 as the only thing I know how to make it look and play good is to have a dgVoodoo wrapper combined with DXWind on win10. It took me a long time to adjust and tweak all the settings but finally, it worked and worked well.
In regards to correcting gameplay or still (after all those years) discovering new things possibly hidden in M1TP2 how about this little picture discovered recently when all of the images were opened from the CAT files.
https://i.ibb.co/tCpf77c/520192.jpg (https://ibb.co/kc2nRR0)
Does it look like a nice Mission Editor maybe hiding still there?
RetroGamer
11-08-21, 11:58 PM
Does it look like a nice Mission Editor maybe hiding still there?
Now that's more like it! The maps I'm seeing barely show the high ground, which is good to know. Usually, I send any TOW support platoons to the high ground to cover possible enemy avenues of approach.
If you can improve the maps, that'd be huge, IMO!
Also, I answered my previous question by researching some M1TP2 FAQs. Specifically, this one:
Q: What cards are supported in Direct3D? A: Direct3D may be used with the Matrox Millennium and Intel 740 cards.
So what the heck....these cards are pretty cheap on eBay right now so I picked
up an Intel 740 8MB AGP card.
Now...I'm pretty sure I can get a USB stick to work in Win98. My problem is
Fraps 1.9d. I installed it but I haven't gotten it to do anything.
Assuming I can get Fraps and USB thumbdrives working, I intend to upload some
M1TP2 gameplay under Glide and D3D....not sure anybody cares but, still working on it....
M1TP2 is running pretty well on the new..er OS and graphic drivers, but only in Glide not so much D3D. Perhaps D3D has not been tried enough, however, there are some strange artifacts (black tiles) on the ground. I am not sure what D3D could do better than Glide for M1TP2 maybe transparency and maybe particle effects.
The problem is that from what I see the transparency is very basic and ancient and unless the change was made to the code to accept a more modern texture format like DDS (DXT3 and DXT5) all efforts may be rather futile to work on PCX with its index mode.
I am really surprised that in Glide M1TP2 looks good as it does on modern hardware and Win10.
This subject is close to my main interest but sometimes it is disappointing to conclude that this is a closed case and nothing can be done.
RetroGamer
11-10-21, 12:51 AM
M1TP2 is running pretty well on the new..er OS and graphic drivers, but only in Glide not so much D3D. Perhaps D3D has not been tried enough, however, there are some strange artifacts (black tiles) on the ground. I am not sure what D3D could do better than Glide for M1TP2 maybe transparency and maybe particle effects.
The problem is that from what I see the transparency is very basic and ancient and unless the change was made to the code to accept a more modern texture format like DDS (DXT3 and DXT5) all efforts may be rather futile to work on PCX with its index mode.
I am really surprised that in Glide M1TP2 looks good as it does on modern hardware and Win10.
This subject is close to my main interest but sometimes it is disappointing to conclude that this is a closed case and nothing can be done.
You're way ahead of me in the software / graphics / programming area! I know nothing of texture formats, PCX, or DDS. I'm not going to attempt running it on my Windows 7 PC until I get it running on the old PCs 1st. I really want to see how M1TP2 is supposed to look when it's running under Win98.
For the life of me, I don't know why I never gave M1TP2 a chance earlier. I have the game in mint condition - box, keyboard card, disk, box, everything!!
Being a computer hobbyist, people have given me computers they were going to discard, knowing I would work on them. As a result, I have 4 old desktops - and one laptop. Three of them run Windows 98, one of the desktops - a Dell 8200 - runs 98, XP, and DOS perfectly, all the rest run XP. I basically have a hodgepodge of abandoned equipment.
Tonight, I booted the Dell 8200 into XP instead of Windows 98 and I'll be...M1TP2 ran beautifully in D3D mode. There is just one quirk - you can't exit the game because the "exit" button is gone! Alt+F4 had to be used to exit. D3D mode did not work at all with the exact same hardware in Win98. Go figure.
In comparing D3D to Glide (the two Voodoo2 cards in SLI), I can see very little difference. Maybe there's just a little less sharpness around the edges in D3D as opposed to Glide but it's nothing really.
I've got the Intel card coming in a week or so. The goal is to have M1TP2 run perfectly in Win98 in Glide (that's been accomplished), and in D3D as well (in progress).
Looking forward to posting comparisons! This is a great game! If I don't feel like getting too overworked, the Armor School Basic Gunnery mission is a great short warm-up. So is the Artillery training mission. Lase, track, fire, watch those awesome graphics! Hah! It's hard to beat that!!!
IMHO the value of M1TP2 is in easy and pleasurable replayability as well in never really fully explored potential of being a great sandbox for the custom mission which can reflect real-life conditions and doctrines.
That is only possible if the users have enough patience to learn this simulation inside out and be able to access the ability and skills to make custom missions from the simple text file.
The same applies to Gunship!
Both of those titles were simply pushed out of the house prematurely and unfinished due to stiff competition and greedy market/financial reasons. They have never been given a chance to shine.
RetroGamer
11-12-21, 04:27 AM
IMHO the value of M1TP2 is in easy and pleasurable replayability as well in never really fully explored potential of being a great sandbox for the custom mission which can reflect real-life conditions and doctrines.
That is only possible if the users have enough patience to learn this simulation inside out and be able to access the ability and skills to make custom missions from the simple text file.
The same applies to Gunship!
Both of those titles were simply pushed out of the house prematurely and unfinished due to stiff competition and greedy market/financial reasons. They have never been given a chance to shine.
I’ve been experimenting with various different hardware and software and the performance of M1TP2 and need to play a bit more. Oh - correct me if I’m wrong but the game plays fine on Windows XP, no? I found minor graphics anomalies at some of the menu screens and the exit button is missing….that’s it. Other than needing to use alt+f4 to exit, it runs great! FYI the game looks just as good under D3D as it does in Glide. I’m not really sure I’d be able to differentiate.
As far as gameplay goes, really it seems the key is getting your forces in a good position. I’ve been breaking the rules of “shoot, move, and communicate” in order to win the battles.
Unfortunately, my gunnery skills just don’t cut it so the best way for me to take out enemy tanks is to get on the high ground, STOP, then take ‘‘em out one at a time FAST just like the static gunnery training range. This is doctrinally incorrect.
The M1A2 tank should be able to shoot on the move and destroy moving enemy targets on the move. I’m just not effective that way, however. Maybe with enough practice….
In other similar armor simulations, I have a “battle drill” procedure in place once enemy armor is spotted:
1. Turn the hull to align with the target.
2. Pop smoke.
3. Fire, then back up over the top of a hill, if possible.
4. Call arty and air support on the target.
5. Wait for the reload, pull forward and reengage, then back up to cover, reload, repeat.
This procedure doesn’t work in M1TP2 because the align hull to gun command doesn’t always work. (maybe I just need to work with it a little more..l) Usually, arty and air have already been requested and are unavailable. I haven’t tried popping smoke. If the thermals can’t see thru it, it’s almost useless….need to try this, as I recall, you can’t see thru smoke in the game. Backing up behind a hill takes so long, you’re gonna get hit.
I recall in the original, the best tactic was to snipe enemy targets one at a time. That’s not what the FMs say to do but it works!!
I’m unclear on how to make custom missions. Better maps, would definitely help.
It’s just simple fun of lining everything up properly, then decimating those BRDMS, BMPs, and T-72s! I’m trying to get a game pad to work with this game but need to figure how to invert the Y axes.
Yeah - the entire world went over to either Steel Beasts or World of Tanks and abandoned M1TP2, iM1A2, and T-72!!! Oh well, more for me, lol!!!
I just can’t get into Steel Beasts - I don’t know why. Probably because there’s no campaign and it’s not actually a “game”.
World of Tanks - well, I love the graphics and all but that’s a first person shooter in a fantasy armor world. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just totally fictitious.
Many interesting questions and observations. Meanwhile here is the list of the old graphic cards recommended by the game authors themselves:
=====================
Cards Supported in Direct 3D:
=====================
Cards Supported in Direct3D:
Matrox Millennium
Intel 740
ATI 3D Rage PCI 2 Mb
ATI 3D Xpression PCI 2 MB
Matrox Millennium II AGP 4MB
Hercules Stingray 128/3D PCI 6 MB
Intense 3D VooDoo
Stealth 64 Animation 3200 PCI 2 MB
S3 Trio 64 v2
S3 Trio 64V+ PCI 1 MB
ATI 3D Rage II 1MB
S3 Trio 64V2-GX PCI 1 MB
Matrox Mystique PCI 2 MB
ATI All-In-Wonder Pro
9FX Reality 332 PCI 2 MB
Embedded S3 Trio64V2 1 MB
ATI 264-VT2 1MB Embedded
S3 Trio 64V+ PCI 1 MB
STB Nitro PCI 4 MB
STB Nitro PCI 4 MB
S3 Virge 64 2MB PCI
Trident Image 975 4MB
ATI 3D Rage PCI 2MB
Matrox Millennium PCI 2 MB
Graphite Terminator PCI 4MB VRAM
STB Velocity 3D 4 MB W/ Real Vision Flash 3D
ATI 3D Rage PCI 2 MB
S3 Trio64V2/DX 2 MB
Diamond Monster 3D PCI 4 MB
ATI 3D Rage II 2 MB
Trident TVGA9680 PCI 1 MB
ATI Mach64 PCI 1MB
Stealth 3D 2000 PCI 4 MB
Cyrix Xpress GRAPHICS
ATI Rage Pro 4MB AGP 2X/
Canopus Pure 3D 6MB PCI
Diamond GL 1000 w/ArcadeFX 3D 3Dfx
The following cards should use the Glide settings.
ATI 3D Rage II+ PCI 2MB
Diamond Viper V330 4MB AGP w/ Monster 3DII Voodoo2 8MB
RetroGamer
11-13-21, 12:52 AM
Many interesting questions and observations. Meanwhile here is the list of the old graphic cards recommended by the game authors themselves:
Thanks for that info on old cards. I've got an Intel 740 AGP card coming next week so I'm going to try D3D out under Windows 98. I think that'll be the end of my M1TP2 hardware research. I need to work on gameplay.
This evening I played a few missions in D3D with M1TP2 V1.2 on a PC running Windows XP. When I finished, I plugged the Aptiva with 3dfx carids in SLI and played a few missions in glide on that PC.
There is no difference whatsoever. None. FWIW a Geforce3 200ti will run the game perfectly under D3D in Windows XP.
I tried some "battle drills", too. Hit backspace to pop smoke, turn on the thermals to engage and....your freaking blind. You can't see them and they probably can't see you. The "Align Hull to Gun" command - I was right, that doesn't work in the heat of battle.
I didn't know this before but it looks like M1TP2 will run on just about any PC with a 3d card running Windows XP. The missing "Quit" button is the only quirk. That's nothing! There's no difference between D3D and glide. I wish I'd known that earlier. I think that's what made me not want to bother with M1TP2....I thought one needed a 3dfx glide card and thought the game needed Win98 to run properly. Not really the case....
Still working on Fraps. Still playing. I have NOT defeated all campaigns on "Normal" or "Hard" yet. I did it on "Easy" mode, though.
About the graphics and making all arrangements to make them compatible with M1TP2 it is my opinion that this may only benefit D3D which is currently unplayable on my win10 64bit and Nvidia GTX card. So therefore I need to run on Glide. And that is basically it.
Here is what is interesting to me atm. Gameplay and how they represented various battledrills as this is what I am learning from the M1TP2 manual and then hearing from the other sources on the internet is the most fundamental component of successful tactics on the tank platoon level. The center of my interest is to try to find and extract the information according to which the battles and battledrills are played out at NTC.
As I have mentioned earlier that most of the battles in M1TP2 are scripted from the rather very simple and totally readable in English text file describing all of the global conditions, spawning information, formations and tasks, and goals for the scenario. I see those files in the Battles subfolder and can read and play and modify them easily. They are for Armor, Player, NATO and Gulf single battle and tutorial scenarios.
However, this is not how the NTC and eventually perhaps campaigns are scripted or generated. They appear to be randomly generated and not scripted although it is my belief that at some point that format of the typical scripted scenario is produced (possibly in memory) and the AI is taking the cue from there. If that could be apprehended and analyzed then not only those Battledrills could be played out (and that is another possibly interesting possibility) on the battlefield and observed and modified to understand fully what is the best gameplay options for Blue as well Red side in this game.
Other things may transpire from that as well.
If that could be apprehended and analyzed then not only those Battledrills could be played out (and that is another possibly interesting possibility) on the battlefield and observed and modified to understand fully what is the best gameplay options for Blue as well Red side in this game.
Fortunately, it did not take long to find a good solution to this how-to extract random NTC mission for further study and analysis.
The solution is to SAVE THE BATTLE right after it starts in the Briefing Map.
The result is a new text file of the saved scenario located in the Player folder and called "battle0.txt". You can rename it to the name of what that mission is in my case it is Movement 2Contact1 or M2C1 as I called it when saving it.
This gives very good learning and test material to play and replay it using maybe different tactics.
RetroGamer
11-17-21, 12:13 AM
...most of the battles in M1TP2 are scripted from the rather very simple and totally readable in English text file describing all of the global conditions, spawning information, formations and tasks, and goals for the scenario. I see those files in the Battles subfolder and can read and play and modify them easily.
That's very interesting. If I'm following you, start one of the battles, immediately save, then go into the Battles subfolder and you can modify it and change the name, conditions, tasks, etc...wow!"
I've been playing the game and trying to figure out which tactics work best. It's a trial and error process. Here's what I've found out so far:
If you've got another platoon of M1A2s, don't separate - keep them next to you on a parallel course so you can engage the enemy in force. That's worked a few times. We've wiped out some enemy tank companies with direct fire with just me and my other platoon.
If you've got another platoon of M2A3s, either keep them with you, but lagging way behind, or send them to some high ground far away. Maybe they can engage long range with the TOWs and not get themselves killed.
If you've got a platoon of M113s, send them for the hills far away so they don't get killed. You can bring them up if you're platoon lost its' mobility.
What gets you killed:
1. Having fun blowing away all those BMPs and enemy tanks and not realizing you're outnumbered. They get a lucky shot and you're platoon is destroyed within 10 seconds.
Oh - back to hardware and software....I can't find a Fraps version that works on Windows 98. It says in the readme of 1.9 that it needs XP to work. I've gotten it to work in XP for the frame counter but can't get any movies. Still working on it. I need a more current version.
If you've got another platoon of M1A2s, don't separate - keep them next to you on a parallel course so you can engage the enemy in force. That's worked a few times. We've wiped out some enemy tank companies with direct fire with just me and my other platoon.
Let us not forget our little flying friends. They can give a helping hand and they are controllable too. This is the bonus of having a random learning scenario being "frozen" at the start so you can modify things to see what works or whatnot. And you can see the battlefield from a new higher viewing point.
http://i.ibb.co/wCmsv2d/M1-TP2-105-Tk-Xp-AO8.png
http://i.ibb.co/7p8801d/M1-TP2-CBz5v-H2i-XK.png
I was wondering what is new in our topic in this New 2022 year? I hope we still M1TP2 tanking ahead! There are some new developments in M1TP2 terrain modding subject here: https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4588387/modding-m1-tank-platoon-2-again#Post4588387
Everyone is invited to make M1TP2 better if possible!
Skybird
01-10-22, 11:55 AM
We admire your enthusiasm! :up:
It certainly was a good game in its time.
Wolfcat
03-11-22, 01:09 AM
@Polak2 Hi I am new to this thread. Could you tell me how to use Voodoo wrapper to get better graphics? I am currently using DXWnd to get it to work but the graphics not nearly as good as yours.
@Wolfcat
Try this profile for DXWnd:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ef89tzw70fb8ts2/M1TP2.dxw?dl=0
I use dgVoodo2 wrapper in Glide mode in the game.
lmk...
RetroGamer
03-13-22, 01:41 AM
I was wondering what is new in our topic in this New 2022 year? I hope we still M1TP2 tanking ahead! There are some new developments in M1TP2 terrain modding subject here: https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4588387/modding-m1-tank-platoon-2-again#Post4588387
Everyone is invited to make M1TP2 better if possible!
I built a retro PC right after the New Year specifically for playing tank sims, especially M1TP2. It’s a Windows XP computer, 3 GHZ processor, intel board, 2 GB RAM, onboard Intel graphics (for now). I intend to eventually get the best graphics card I can find with XP drivers.
As is, I can play:
1. The 3 Armored Fist games (AF1, AF2 under DOXBox, AF3 under XP)
2. M1TP2 - v1.2, looks great under D3D mode. Sometimes the colors are off after using thermal sights but the game plays very well and never crashes.
3. Steel Beasts 1 - I only play the tank range from time to time.
4. iM1A2 - I only play the Instant Action scenario.
5. Mechwarrior4 - Not a tank sim but close - graphics are off the scale beautiful!
6. T-72 Balkans on Fire - looks good, low frame rate due to onboard graphics.
Games that won’t run until I install a better graphics card:
1. Battlefield 2
2. T34 vs Tiger
3. Steel Fury
4. Steel Armor: Blaze of War
All that being said - M1TP2 is the main game I play. Here’s what I’ve learned:
1. At the mission start, get everybody to the high ground.
2. Keep your forces together. LAVs and Hummer platoons and sections die without you.
3. Every mission is an attack mission. Wedge, full speed. Upon contact, use Battle drill to assault line formation.
4. While doctrinally incorrect, stopping the M1 and engaging g targets at maximum effective range with sabot rounds works. Sabot has a longer range. Just stop and snipe each BMP because if you’re moving, you’ll miss.
I’m still playing the heck out of all the campaigns.
M1TP2 is still awesome!
@RetroGamer ...and others,
I am glad you are still with M1P2.
About best tactics in this I cannot say yet too much, however, IMHO there are a few problems about this game that prevent implementation of closer to RL tactics and doctrines.
a. size of the battlefield
b. very awkward and clumsy representation of trees and forests
c. inability to split tank platoon into 2 sections
d. more refined and accurate heightmap allowing use terrain for cover
Some, if not all, of those deficiencies, could be possibly corrected with deeper research of files and modding. It needs some time and perhaps broader attention and support would be helpful.
So for now let us just enjoy this visualization of Movement to Contact with VBS2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUjma7K7QRI
RetroGamer
05-21-22, 09:47 PM
Hey, Polak2!
This is somewhat M1TP2 related - I bought Gunship! A few weeks ago and yes, it’s more advanced graphically than M1TP2.
I’m starting the training missions but confound it!….I immediately ran into a snafu. There’s no way for me to navigate to the next waypoint.
Apparently one needs a patch.
If there’s a Gunship thread on this, point me in the right direction and I’ll meet you there.
I really want to sink my teeth into Gunship! It’s another high quality sim that I didn’t give a chance back when it came out. Thanks.
There’s no way for me to navigate to the next waypoint.
That is a nice surprise and I may add right move!
So as far as flying in Gunship! neither Pilot nor the Gunner have Autopilot to The Nxt Waypoint function. IIRC That kicks in only when you leave the ship on its own it will proceed to the next waypoint. Same with Wingmen.
The autopilot waypoints can be played with on the map N but that has also little glitch that it may crash the system if your chosen resolution of the game in Gunship differs from your native Windows resolution. Easy to correct.
Next Waypoint is visible on pilot IHADS so that is how you fly as the Pilot - manually following that carret which will change as soon as you reach that waypoint.
So the best way to fly is using the Gunner position is by turning towards the desired direction and pressing G for Go this Way which maybe if you wish carret =next waypoint or any other direction.
RetroGamer
06-09-22, 11:45 PM
Ok. Thanks!
My Win98 PC and WinXP PC that I built like Gunship! and run it well. This is one of those sims I'm going to have to take some time to learn.
Starting with printing out the manual. Maybe finding a paper manual on eBay. That pdf doesn't cut it.
I'll let ya know when I get Gunship! down.
RetroGamer
10-09-22, 01:53 PM
About this time last year, I rebuilt my two legacy PCs, installed M1TP2, and defeated most of the campaigns.
I got sidetracked and built a high end WinXP system that runs Gunship! Perfectly but not M1TP2. I think that disappointment caused me to lose interest. So - the new one will be for Gunship and M1TP2 will reside on the Packard Bell and Aptiva from the late ‘90s.
I upgraded my old PCs by maxing out the RAM and reinstalling Win98. Ok….time for me to quit fooling around with the hardware and get serious about really beating this game!
I’m not sure there is any point to this post other than to say, the manual, the graphics, & gameplay guarantee that I’ll never completely abandon this game.
If anybody else is still playing, let me know. I’d just taken a little break….
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