AUKUS

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58564837

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/15/politics/us-uk-australia-nuclear-powered-submarines/index.html

The US and the UK have agreed to form a pact with austrlia that enables it to have access to extremely sensitive technologies related to the construction of nuclear submarines.


An older deal with France to build Diesels for the Australian navy seems to be floating dead in the water, therefor.

If Australia continues to attract the anger of Bejing like it did in recent months, it will need a much stronger muscle indeed.

Clever move by Biden. Subtle, but effective.


Aerial stealth drones for Australia should be next, me thinks.

[ET2SN]

This is a really big deal (especially for this forum). :yep:

Having an Oz-UK-US organization makes a lot of sense for Australia and the US and UK. We could also call it the "High fiving white guys club" or "Operation Wonder Bread" but you get the idea.

Some initial take-aways:

-Australia is going Nuke (powered). This will require some lead time. There isn't a keel in a shipyard, yet. There isn't even a name for the program, let alone the first boat or its seal.
Nuclear subs need a crew. :up: The RAN isn't set up for this, as of today. This will require nuke-trained officers, enlisted, and support personnel. Think lots of cross-deck assignments with the US and RN for several years to build up the experience level for a boat that isn't even in its design phase, yet. Think about drinking from a fully changed fire hose. :o Nuclear training isn't a walk in the park.



-This is all aimed at China. Unless the PRC backs down and gives up the "If we can see it, we own it" philosophy, there is going to be a war. Its hard to sell crap to your enemies, let alone your friends, during and after a large war.

Likewise, the last thing you want to do during a sea-based conflict is send your boomers on patrol in hostile (or potentially hostile) waters. Either park them or lose them. :yep:


Now, discuss. :Kaleun_Salute:

[Otto Harkaman]

Well I guess that is great, for the long term but wouldn't some AIP SSGs using a combination design of the latest Japanese and South Korean subs be more prudent?

[3catcircus]

Well I guess that is great, for the long term but wouldn't some AIP SSGs using a combination design of the latest Japanese and South Korean subs be more prudent?

Prudent for whom? AIP and diesel-electric are fuel-limited. Nuclear powered boats are limited by how much food they can carry. In case you aren't aware, China and Australia aren't actually all that close - 5500 miles or so by air. That's a lot of ocean to patrol in a non-nuke boat where you'll need to divert to fuel.

[Otto Harkaman]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Map_of_the_Territorial_Waters_of_the_Pacific_Ocean .png

[Skybird]

Well I guess that is great, for the long term but wouldn't some AIP SSGs using a combination design of the latest Japanese and South Korean subs be more prudent?
Note that they had a deal or declaration of intention signed with France providing them with nonnuclear subs. Thats gone, I think. So there has been a competion program some years agp. I recall the Germans had hopes to win it, but didnt.



The now announced deal is big because it ends a long prohibition of making US key technology available to others, because Australia will probably dont buy ready blats, but build them under license or license for key components itself. That has been a demand for the SS competition before, too. In other words, we speak of technology and knowhow transfer.

[ET2SN]

Note that they had a deal or declaration of intention signed with France providing them with nonnuclear subs. Thats gone, I think. So there has been a competion program some years agp. I recall the Germans had hopes to win it, but didnt.



The now announced deal is big because it ends a long prohibition of making US key technology available to others, because Australia will probably dont buy ready blats, but build them under license or license for key components itself. That has been a demand for the SS competition before, too. In other words, we speak of technology and knowhow transfer.

The devil is in the details. :03:

The deal with France was going nowhere fast. It exists on paper (as a signed contract) but France was being, well, France and wasn't planning to do anything until there was enough cash on the table.

Australia has traditionally been a close ally with the UK (naturally) and the US. While Australian military hardware was traditionally made up of second hand UK-based fighter planes and ships, they have also relied on US-sourced aircraft (the F-111 and F/A-18 fighter bombers) plus some smaller warships.

The only real problem was that Australia has never really used a "platinum card" budget to buy its hardware (much like Canada). I'm guessing part of the new deal involves some financial support from either the US or UK.

As far as tech transfers, this part isn't that big of a deal. The US was already working closely with the UK in terms of nuke propulsion (the US Columbia class SSBN and the UK's next-gen SSBN are rumored to share a lot of the same tech if not the same hardware). All that's really happening is the US and UK allowing Australia into the same club house. The bigger news (IMO) is Australia "rethinking" its anti-nuclear-power stance.

[Reece]

The bigger news (IMO) is Australia "rethinking" its anti-nuclear-power stance.
I certainly hope so!! :yep:

[Skybird]

Yes, the collaboraiton with the UK is 70 years old (on SSNs), but the US has been very shy to give away technology of such a sensitive nature to other countries, propellers for example, sonar etc. Traditionally the US does not like that, and it is understadable. On the other hand today they trade stealth technology in aircrafts... A decade or longer ago there even was an American attempt to buy the German shipyard building the Type 212 to get access to the boat'S technology, because the German offer to trade quid pro quo and exchange, trade sensitive tech secrets between the two states, was rejected. One wanted to know the tech of the 212, but did not want to give data on own tech. Needless to mention this, but the Germans said No, too.


Your last sentence, do you mean this military deal indicates a move away from coal-based power production in civilian industry, too? Australia takes plenty of Flak currently due to its rejection to stop mining coal and joining the climate appeasement choire.

[ET2SN]

Your last sentence, do you mean this military deal indicates a move away from coal-based power production in civilian industry, too?

Ask Reece, I don't live in Australia. :D

I served on one of the last US diesel boats and a 688 class nuke, I know the best way to go to sea. :up: I'm concentrating only on the SSN part in this thread.

Aside from the start-up cost, Nuclear is the best way to power a sub. There's some risk if you screw it up and its a pain when you have to refuel, but that's at least twenty years down the road.

I got to know some folks in the RAN, they're good operators and some of our closest allies.

[Exocet25fr]

Australian SNA ?:o :har: :haha:

[mapuc]

I knew Kapitan had a thread about this RAN going nuclear-powered. Couldn't find it here, then I remembered it was on FB, where he posted a bulletin about this:

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/speculation-pm-will-announce-90b-french-submarine-deal-is-dead-20210915-p58rzo

Back to discussing this AUKUS cooperation

Markus

[ET2SN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiUJKO1HY6o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fZxKNasAGI



:hmmm:


Australia is also getting Tomahawks from the US?

[Exocet25fr]

FUKUS is more appropriate, no?:)

I suggest the Green Peace flag for these subs !:O:

And a name for the first one: Rainbow Warrior !

[ET2SN]

The truth is that France lost this deal. :yep:

Call it whatever you want, just don't let the door hit you in the back side. :03:

[Jimbuna]

FUKUS is more appropriate, no?:)

I suggest the Green Peace flag for these subs !:O:

And a name for the first one: Rainbow Warrior !

And that all ended well for French repotation didn't it?

The truth is that France lost this deal. :yep:

Call it whatever you want, just don't let the door hit you in the back side. :03:

Rgr that.

[Exocet25fr]

Australia wins the deal !:)

''Welcome in the club of Nuclear Targets'' with Chinese or Russian missiles in a probable WW3 !:salute:

Never trust in a contract writed in english......

FRANCE not be concerned in a Pacific War

FoE ?: AUS, US and Perfide Albion
China and USSR aren't our ennemies, many French people prefers Poutine now !

biden = trump :D

The France must leave NATO, OMS etc....

[Jimbuna]

At some point someone must make a stand against the Chinese so what better time than now.

[mapuc]

Australia wins the deal !:)

''Welcome in the club of Nuclear Targets'' with Chinese or Russian missiles in a probable WW3 !:salute:

Never trust in a contract writed in english......

FRANCE not be concerned in a Pacific War

FoE ?: AUS, US and Perfide Albion
China and USSR aren't our ennemies, many French people prefers Poutine now !

biden = trump :D

The France must leave NATO, OMS etc....

Their new subs will have nuclear as propulsion, they will not be equip with nukes.

Furthermore in a nuclear exchange in a WWIII Australia will get their parts of nukes too whether they have nuclear propulset subs or not.

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YslDTSK7vmw

[Jimbuna]

^ Care to translate whatever is being said in the clip?

[Skybird]

What does AUKUS reveal about the EU's international reputation? CNN scores the bull's eye.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/16/world/aukus-leaves-europe-in-the-cold-intl-cmd/index.html

Damn. Another of those superclever indepth longterm complex wondermiracle super dooper high intelligentia strategy plans of Brussels blown out of the window.

Stupid EU illusions. "Hope is not a strategy." Should become part of the oath for any EU official being sworn into office.

[Platapus]

Very sad that France is unhappy.



Really really sad.



giggle

[Skybird]

Fance hoped to have a say in keeping resistance to China low and thus making the EU, namely France and its European extension, an indispensable mediator. Change by trade, this German long lasting fallacy that has not worked with Russia and not with China so far. China is no friend. No partner. It does not meet Europe on same eye level but sees Europe as inferior.



China now wants to join a trade bloc created by Obama to counte rChinese influence in the region, which was abandoned by the Donald becasue the treaty was made by Obama. One of those shining exmaples of Donaldinarian genius.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58579832



The pact that eventually became the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), was created by the US to counter China's influence.


However, former President Donald Trump pulled the US out of it in 2017.


Chinese commerce minister Wang Wentao said the world's second largest economy had submitted its application to join the free trade agreement in a letter to New Zealand's trade minister, Damien O'Connor.


New Zealand acts as the administrative centre for the pact.


Mr Wang and Mr O'Connor then held a telephone conference to discuss the next steps following China's application, the Chinese Ministry of Commerce said.


The original Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) was promoted by then-President Barack Obama as an economic bloc to challenge China's increasingly powerful position in the Asia Pacific.


After Mr Trump pulled the US out of the deal, Japan led negotiations to create what became the CPTPP.

If the local states there are smart, they reject the Chinese, else China will become inevitably the dominant actor in it, abusing it to promote its own powerpolitical goals. Or they fall for typical EU fallacy: chnage by trade, and blablabla and the end is clear: China dominates at will.

[Jimbuna]

The US and UK are facing growing international criticism over a new security pact signed with Australia.

The deal - seen as an effort to counter China - will see the US and UK give Australia the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines.

But the move angered France, which said it had been "stabbed in the back", while China accused the three powers of having a "Cold War mentality".

And the pact has raised fears that it could provoke China into a war.

The alliance, known as Aukus, was announced by US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart Scott Morrison on Wednesday.

While they did not mention China, Aukus is being widely viewed as an effort to counter Beijing's influence in the contested South China Sea.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58592613

One country mentioned in the above has a short memory.

[mapuc]

Well.....

France recalls envoys in U.S, Australia over submarine deal - statement

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/france-recalls-envoys-us-australia-over-submarine-deal-statement-2021-09-17/

Markus

[Kapitan]

From what I'm hearing on the grape vine France is Royally P**ssed off, yes i can understand why however they have to bear some of the blame here.

A deal was signed in 2016 for a projected $35bn in 2021 that cost was now slated at $90bn.
In that time there has been some work granted however Australia gave France an ultimatum back in about March that if they saw no results by September they would pull the plug.
Which is what they did.

France has over run on design phase, that means delivery will be late, that also means costs go up, and from 2016 to today there's little to show for the money already spent.

I believe it was 2011 (might be wrong) but Australia did approach France about nuclear reactor technology transfer and the French declined the deal.

Realistically the French bid was not the best bid in a technical sense, it lacked submerged endurance of the type 212, didn't have the power capacity of the Soryu but what it did have was most certainly something the Australians wanted the most which was to have it built in Australia and that's why they won the bid.

When it comes to the EU I cannot trust their foreign policy, the EU have been very accommodating to China and indeed Russia over the last decade.
The EU wants its own defense force which it clearly stated in the 1998 st malo treaty that was the pre text for what was to come.
The EU doesn't want tension in the Pacific it wants to appease China, a dangerous game as we all know what happened last time re 1930's

In all of this Marie Le Pen could be elected and if so I know she wants France out of the EU and that would be a good thing, the Dutch are also on that tipping point, the Greeks and Italians are not very fond of the EU either.

France has been a dubious ally in the past it has flip flopped in and out of NATO, they don't care to assist others, the UK's CASD is designed to protect not just the UK but also our NATO partners in Europe this includes France, yet France does not reciprocate.

More recently having dealt with the Mali problems, France requested UK assistance in the region, we reluctantly accepted and then they tried to send us the bill ! note they got told to swiftly jog on. (I did help in some of this program)

From a few sources I have the Suffren isn't what its made out to be it falls quite a bit short in some areas, but is very good in others, one notable source of mine stated "the sonar leaves a lot to be desired"
Suffren is quiet and uses advanced technologies yet in some areas is antiquated. (thats not a bad thing BTW our Trafalgars use an autopilot system that dates to 1944)

Suffren IMO and several other sources I have note that both Virginia and Astute would be able to find her and take her out before she could respond (This is from USN Norwegian and RN sources I have)

Could France have sold the Suffren to Australia ? yes and to be honest it probably would have been a good deal.


Australia getting SSN's I do have to admit I never thought it would come given their historic anti nuclear policy (yet being one of the largest uranium producers in the world) therefore I didn't see that coming.
Does a SSN make sense for Australia given the region and area they operate plus what their goals are it makes perfect logical sense.

I will leave you with this, Pay very close attention to the defense white paper in 2025 it may surprise you :03:

[Skybird]

Me too is surprised on Australia's tough stance towards China. In the past one or two decades I would have expected - and said so - that sooner or later they would somewhat disconnect from their ties to the UK and the US and learn to fall in line much more with Chinese demands, due to their geographical vicinity to them. That they accept escalation now and not blindly appease Bejing even when it sees them suffering unfriendly economic consequences is something I did not expect. I admit that I seem to have been fundamentally wrong there. If this stance lives beyond the current Australian administration, of course. Honestly said I have not even a clue on the swing and moods of the Australian politlical landscape.

On france, it is not so much about the lost money form the submarine contract. France has so many debts and sees Germany finally agreeing to form a debt union in the ECB zone with the collectivization of debts at the cost of the net paying nations, that this deal does not really matter. For france it is about its absurd stance of seeing itself still as a globally important power - ironically France practices in extremis what it and what the EU accuses brexiting UK heavily of: to think and act as if the UK still had a great empire and a higher fleet, rviving the glory of the past. Well, the Brits could take lessons from the French in this. France has ambitions and poses in a way that economically and fiscally it cannot afford. It sees the EU as a vehicle for implementing French claims for leadership, and French interests. But it cannot finance these by its own means, it needs Germany to pay parts of its bills for the French. Thats the Germans that twice rolled over them and plowed them under with ease although the French army was superior. France still wants to sit at the table with the global great players - question is whether it really belongs there. It has one of the only two really war-ready and capable armies in the EU - oh wait, the other has just brexitted away, I always forget that... -, but it has not really the economic strength to maintain and support its claimed role. What Biden did now is to show them how small and relatively unimportan they really are. And thats a narcisstic offence they find hard to take. Even more so since they fpoudn themselve sunable to get out of WWII "victoriously" without massive aid and assistance from the UK and the US.

But I am wondering anyway. Biden again and again has said he sees China as a rival and the challenge - I assume he also implied the military dimension there - of the future, and that it cannot be a partner - as Merkel wanted it to make appear (once again in vein, obviously). Does nobody in Europe listen when Biden talks about China...??? Or do the Europeans think he is kidding? France could have seen this coming. Washington does not take France or Brussel too serious. because it has no reason to do so. Europe is too weak. Soft power does not score against a violent regime ready to use brutal force instead of endless streams of kind wordings.

Great scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab6GyR_5N6c

It was a French who said "States have no friends. States have interests." And France all too often acts accordingly, in the EU and in Europe. Now a bigger bully came along and kicked them on the nose. And there is nothing they can do. Big lament!

Paris also could have seen it coming due to its own performance in fullfilling that contract's conditions. Delays and delays and spoiled time tables, I am pretty sure they enforced these intentionally to keep australia unfit to seriously pose a challenge to China so that France and the EU could keep "relevant" as a mediator in the region even while not being strong themselves, and doing trade with china. France wanted a weak Australia. Like it wants a weak Britain and an America that Europe turns away from - and instead turns to Paris.



My sympathy for France in this story is nill. And I cannot accuse the leaders of three other nations that are not my nation for keeping up what they see as their nations interests. Thats what they have sworn an oath to do and thats what they are obligated to do by their nation's respective laws and constitutions. Paris thought it had good cards and overplayed its hand. And of course its the guilt of the others. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

My sympathy for France in this story is nill. And I cannot accuse the leaders of three other nations that are not my nation for keeping up what they see as their nations interests. Thats what they have sworn an oath to do and thats what they are obligated to do by their nation's respective laws and constitutions. Paris thought it had good cards and overplayed its hand. And of course its the guilt of the others. :haha:

Pretty much how I see it :yep:

[Exocet25fr]

CHIRUS Partners now........:haha: good luck to the trump clon, to the rosbeef and the fella if France leaves NATO, because they said we are vital and solid rock, but we know now they are lying !

BRAVO AMERICA FIRST!

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/09/iran-joins-china-russia-shanghai-cooperation-organization

[ET2SN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vD96AtjHqs


Its best to hear it from the horse's mouth. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

CHIRUS Partners now........:haha: good luck to the trump clon, to the rosbeef and the fella if France leaves NATO, because they said we are vital and solid rock, but we know now they are lying !

BRAVO AMERICA FIRST!

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/09/iran-joins-china-russia-shanghai-cooperation-organization

You could be speaking German now in case you have forgotten your history.

[UglyMowgli]

According to the Australian finance minister, the US will loan some refitted 688



So no brand new toys.


And one 688 has a crew of 3 Collins, an another problem, the Asutralain navy will need to recruit a lot!

[Reece]

More jobs!! :up:

[Exocet25fr]

You could be speaking German now in case you have forgotten your history.

Sure without Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette and other allies in case you have forgotten history too....!:salute:

In fact america first is shiving, you derive to cold war and the Atomic War isn't a taboo for you now!. So I'm worry about Phascolarctos cinereus and Macropodidae....!

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vD96AtjHqs


Its best to hear it from the horse's mouth. :yep:

A good report :yep:

Interestingly or not, the French Antarctic resupply ship is undergoing maintenance in Western Australia before the summer Antarctic programme.

[Jimbuna]

The UK's new security agreement with the US and Australia will make it safer and could create hundreds of new jobs, the new foreign secretary has said.

The pact, known as Aukus, will see Australia being given the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines.

Liz Truss said it showed the UK's readiness to be "hard-headed" in defending its interests.

But France, whose own submarine deal with Australia was thwarted as a result, has criticised the agreement.

It has recalled its ambassadors in the US and Australia for consultations in response, while China has accused the three powers of having a "Cold War mentality".

The alliance - widely seen as an effort to counter China's influence in the contested South China Sea - was announced by US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart Scott Morrison on Wednesday.

Ms Truss said the partnership showed the UK's commitment to stability in the Indo-Pacific region.

She wrote: "Freedoms need to be defended, so we are also building strong security ties around the world.

"This is about more than foreign policy in the abstract, but delivering for people across the UK and beyond by partnering with like-minded countries to build coalitions based on shared values and shared interests."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58613195

[ET2SN]

According to the Australian finance minister, the US will loan some refitted 688



So no brand new toys.


And one 688 has a crew of 3 Collins, an another problem, the Asutralain navy will need to recruit a lot!

That makes no sense for several reasons. :timeout:
My best guess is that there may be a plan to use one of the floating reactor school houses, like the ex-USS San Francisco, to train the engineering crew.

Otherwise, have you got a link? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

The Australians are defending their position.

Australia has defended its decision to scrap a multi-billion dollar submarine purchase from France in favour of a new security pact with the US and UK.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison rejected accusations that Australia had lied, saying France should have been aware it was prepared to break the deal.

France says the Aukus pact has led to a "serious crisis" between the allies.

In an unprecedented move, it has recalled its ambassadors from the US and Australia as a sign of protest.

Under the Aukus pact, Australia will be given the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines as a way of countering China's influence in the contested South China Sea.

The partnership has ended a deal worth $37bn (£27bn) signed by Australia in 2016 for France to build 12 conventional submarines. France says it was informed of the pact only hours before the public announcement was made earlier this week.

Mr Morrison on Sunday said he understood France's disappointment, but that he had always been clear about Australia's position.

The French government "would have had every reason to know that we had deep and grave concerns", he said.

"Ultimately this was a decision about whether the submarines that were being built, at great cost to the Australian taxpayer, were going to be able to do a job that we needed it to do when they went into service and our strategic judgment based on the best possible of intelligence and defence advice was that it would not."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58616759

[UglyMowgli]

That makes no sense for several reasons. :timeout:
My best guess is that there may be a plan to use one of the floating reactor school houses, like the ex-USS San Francisco, to train the engineering crew.

Otherwise, have you got a link? :hmmm:


Watch the latest ABC Insider with Simon Birmingham .


Short term lease of US SSN to train crew

Not any idea about the cost of the new "deal" nor the number of ships or the timeline.





and one more link:
Australia stands up to China – by delaying submarine project for a decade


https://asiapacificdefencereporter.com/australia-stands-up-to-china-by-delaying-submarine-project-for-a-decade/

[Skybird]

Excellent assessment. Hard, grim, true truths.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58614229


The French - and the EU - must not like it. Living up to the inevitable conclusions would already be sufficient. And is indispensable.

[Catfish]

^ "The French must see there is no point in wailing about having been shoddily treated. They were."

"But the second painful truth exposed by the Aukus affair is that the US no longer has any great interest in the outdated behemoth that is Nato. Nor does it harbour any particular loyalty to those who have stood by its side."

"So what can France do?
Accept realities. Try to form ad hoc alliances (like Macron was indeed trying to do in the Indo-Pacific). Keep pushing the Germans to get over their 20th Century complexes and act like the power they really are."

Time to restructure the brain-dead NATO without the US indeed. And maybe without the UK. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

NATO without the US and without the UK?

:har:

Well, at least the Swiss army will be CO2 neutral by 2050, we should bring them in to take the anglosaxons' part. And German pregnant recruits can drive around in the PUMA without needing to fear inhaling aerosols putting their fetus at risk. :k_rofl:
I mean we cannot even defend our borders against unarmed mass migration getting pushed in by criminals, Belarus and Turkey. But we think we must choose the Far East Pacific, Afghanistan and Mali as our playfields...?

Seeing is believing. until then, I wait. And I don't hold my breath.

[Catfish]

Logical consequence of what your link posted, and what i reposted.
Of course the name will be a different one. 'Not Able To Organize' was a bit disenchanting anyway.

AFAIK the decision to share nuclear sub tech with Australia was an unilateral US one, the UK was 'informed' and quickly jumped the bandwagon.
If Germany would decide to build nuclear subs and ballistic missiles in a european frame, i don't think this would be an unsurmountable technical challenge. Unilateral decisions lead to unexpected outcomes

[mapuc]

NATO without the US and without the UK?

:har:

Well, at least the Swiss army will be CO2 neutral by 2050, we should bring them in to take the anglosaxons' part. And German pregnant recruits can drive around in the PUMA without needing to fear inhaling aerosols putting their fetus at risk. :k_rofl:
I mean we cannot even defend our borders against unarmed mass migration getting pushed in by criminals, Belarus and Turkey. But we think we must choose the Far East Pacific, Afghanistan and Mali as our playfields...?

Seeing is believing. until then, I wait. And I don't hold my breath.

There are politicians in Europe who think that EU can create a substitut to NATO who will have same strength as NATO.

Markus

[Skybird]

^ NATO with or NATO without the US and UK...?

The issue is money, and numbers of platforms.https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/60c72cd76874b43fe773a611/960x0.jpg?fit=scale
Also, differences in national mentalities. Just compare the public's attitude towards the military in the US, and in Germany. Black and White. Applaus there, ignoring the army, if not even looking down on it here.

German fighters mostly are grounded, due to technical reasons. Those that could fly, do not all fly , because of squadrons being unable to crew them all: not enough pilots. And the pilots that do fly, due to financial restrictions cannot log as many training hours in mid-air as they should, must and need. Thats how it was at least untol three or four years ago.

Attitude: I see as huge lack of warrior mentality and fighting spirit in many European armies, and especially the Germans. This sounds too unreal? No, it has serious consequences. The failing of the Dutch at Srebrenica is an example, I say. Intellectually many excuses have been given why it was "not possible" to stop the Serbs. Another mindset would have fought nevertheless, despite the odds, knpwing that the politcla fallout of a Serbian attack on a NATO contingent could have had devastating consequences for the Serbs - if only the political will would have materialised. Political lacking will also is an issue.

I list three books that together illustrate and paint a picture of what I am after (all titles are Links to click on):
Martin van Creveld: Pussycats (https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/1533232008/ref=sr_1_14?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C 3%91&dchild=1&keywords=martin+van+creveld&qid=1632085205&sr=8-14). Why the rest keeps beating the West and what can be done about it. 2016
Martin van Creveld: The Culture of War. (https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0345505409/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&keywords=martin+van+creveld+culture+of+war&qid=1632085293&sr=8-1) 2008
John Keegan: A History of Warfare. (https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/0679730826/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3 %91&dchild=1&keywords=john+keegan+a+history+of+warfare&qid=1632085375&sr=8-1) 1993


And for those being interested in the matter from different approach way: Musashi' Book of Five Rings (Go Rin no Sho).

Its even worse. Not only can we not fight anymore - we do not even see why we should want to be able to fight and defend ourselves.

[mapuc]

I don't know. Remember only that there are politicians here in Denmark and in Sweden who think an EU army would be better and stronger than NATO and USA or just the European part of NATO.

Been thinking when I read this-Could this be the end of NATO ?

Edit
It was due to Trumps saying about NATO who made these politicians to dig up this idea again.
End edit

Markus

[Skybird]

The vaining of Americna interest for NATO and Europe already started visibly under Obama. Many Europoliticians just preferred to pretend that they did not see it. And maybe they didn't, how should I know. I think it was clearly visible.

[ET2SN]

Watch the latest ABC Insider with Simon Birmingham .


Short term lease of US SSN to train crew

Not any idea about the cost of the new "deal" nor the number of ships or the timeline.





and one more link:
Australia stands up to China – by delaying submarine project for a decade


https://asiapacificdefencereporter.com/australia-stands-up-to-china-by-delaying-submarine-project-for-a-decade/

Be careful with editorials posing as news. :03:

I can speculate with the best of them, so why not have Australia borrow Akulas and Sierras from Russia? Its already been done by India, Russia is everyone's pal and they need the money. :yeah:

Or, why not cut out all of the middlemen and have China build the subs? This takes care of the "stronger partnership" angle and brings more stability to the Indo-pacific region. I'm sure China could build a great shipyard in Oz that hires the locals. :yeah:



:Kaleun_Wink:

[Reece]

why not cut out all of the middlemen and have China build the subs? This takes care of the "stronger partnership" angle and brings more stability to the Indo-pacific region. I'm sure China could build a great shipyard in Oz that hires the locals. :yeah:



:Kaleun_Wink:

:har::har: You slay me!!! :yep:
Now wait a minute, that's not a bad idea!! :hmmm:

[Exocet25fr]

https://newsline.news/australian-submarine-for-boris-johnson-london-has-an-indestructible-love-for-paris/

:haha::haha::haha::har::har::har::har: (we don't need vaseline...)

Froggies don't like roosbeefs, we prefer Snails....

In French Forums majority of people wants to leave nato, and Macron speaks about that, and he thinks about an European Alliance too, but our national powder is like a weathercock and Pinocchio.....Personnaly I will vote for "MARINE" Le Pen:D

[Skybird]

I had not expected that a German mainstrema national newspapers would slam the French and - quote - "drama queen" Macron so mercilessly over the mess they brought themselves into.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/nach-dem-geplatzten-u-boot-geschaeft-drama-queen-macron-nimmt-nato-und-berlin-aufs-korn/27627196.html


The choice of roles of a drama queen must alarm Germany. What is the goal - and what are the lessons for the next federal government? Macron demands more European autonomy in contrast to NATO and more support from Berlin for it. But: is that also in the German interest? And how reliable is Paris when the going gets tough?
France was largely responsible for the defeat itself (https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/atom-u-boote-fuer-australien-eine-schon-fast-brutale-lehrstunde-in-geopolitik/27623422.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem) . The provider DCNS has far exceeded the budget for the submarines and did not deliver the agreed project sections on time. Australia wanted to get out a long time ago. In April it had not signed the follow-up agreement.

The defeat is self-inflicted, the anger played

The French have been betting for too long that Australia has no alternative. The Americans and British have so far been unwilling to share their secrets of nuclear submarine propulsion with anyone. This hurdle has been overcome. (https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/u-boot-deal-veraergert-frankreich-paris-ruft-botschafter-aus-usa-und-australien-zurueck/27621326.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem)An alliance of democracies against China's imperial claims in the Indo-Pacific is a priority for Joe Biden and Boris Johnson.
Macron's anger is partly authentic, partly acted. With a view to the election in the spring, it is tricky when jobs in the arms industry are no longer available. The industry plays a bigger role in France than in Germany.
Paris recently lost arms contracts several times for political reasons: helicopter deals with Russia because of the sanctions following the annexation of Crimea and with Poland because the national-populist PiS preferred to negotiate with the USA after its election victory rather than honor the agreements of its predecessors.

Paris fears a coalition left of center in Berlin

The Australian order for diesel submarines came at just the right time. France didn't get it back then because it builds better diesel engines than the duped German competition. But because of the option to switch to nuclear power. Now the USA and Great Britain are winning because they are better there.

With the tough choice of words, Macron is building up pressure to force compensation, for example by involving French shipyards in the new project.

But he also wants concessions from Germany. It is about the global competitiveness of Europe in complex armaments projects. He is annoyed by German going it alone, from the rejection of armed drones to the export guidelines for joint armaments.
Paris also fears that Germany, under a left-of-center coalition, will show even less willingness to strengthen Europe militarily.

[Skybird]

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/atom-u-boote-fuer-australien-eine-schon-fast-brutale-lehrstunde-in-geopolitik/27623422.html



In contrast to Great Britain, France lacks the option of global power militarily. The European Union is far from being taken seriously in a security partnership beyond its own continent. One can certainly be of the opinion that this is not a goal worth striving for. But then you shouldn't complain when global politics is shaped from a Western perspective without the EU .

[Jimbuna]

NATO without the US and without the UK?

:har:

Well, at least the Swiss army will be CO2 neutral by 2050, we should bring them in to take the anglosaxons' part. And German pregnant recruits can drive around in the PUMA without needing to fear inhaling aerosols putting their fetus at risk. :k_rofl:
I mean we cannot even defend our borders against unarmed mass migration getting pushed in by criminals, Belarus and Turkey. But we think we must choose the Far East Pacific, Afghanistan and Mali as our playfields...?

Seeing is believing. until then, I wait. And I don't hold my breath.

Post of the Year material :03:

[Catfish]

Post of the Year material :03:
When it come to being dumbest, yes :)

[mapuc]

When it come to being dumbest, yes :)

???? Why should Skybirds comment be the dumbest ????

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

Markus

[Catfish]

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.
How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship.

Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming.

re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France.
"contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia"
What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them?

[Catfish]

Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.
Markus
Russia cannot afford a war, not now or in the next 20 years.
But theoretically what do you think would have happened in the Trump years IF Russia had taken action against Europe? Let's say just some smaller parts, and waiting again for the next opportunity? :shucks:
Since Russia and China ARE threats it is indeed high time to do something also in Europe, just NATO will not do.

On the other hand, as posted before, why should Australia not buy or lease russian submarines like India does? Wouldn't THAT be something :haha::rotfl2:

[mapuc]

Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers.

While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's.

Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's.

Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France.

I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on.
But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral.

Markus

[Catfish]

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

[mapuc]

So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?

I don't know to be honest. I hope it wouldn't come so far that Putin think he has a chance to invade and occupy East Europe incl. Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Because I fear that NATO's only response would be nukes.

Markus

[Catfish]

I don't know to be honest. I hope it wouldn't come so far that Putin think he has a chance to invade and occupy East Europe incl. Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Because I fear that NATO's only response would be nukes.
Markus
No, as long Putin believes there will be a united western nuclear response, an invasion will not happen.
The formerly united west is breaking up right now, with Trump and brexit ony being symptoms of the underlying rot.

Remember Putin's "multipolar world" speech? This is certainly what he hopes for. A multipolar world with single nations not belonging to a bloc or pact will make Russia stronger of course, after their own bloc/pact disintegrated in the 1990ies.
I think he is just waiting for NATO and a western pact breaking apart, and he did not even need to do something, the west does it all by itself. So I am not sure, but regarding what just now happens, the second Putin doubts there will be no unipolar retaliation by the west anymore, he will make his move.

[mapuc]

No, as long Putin believes there will be a united western nuclear response, an invasion will not happen.
The formerly united west is breaking up right now, with Trump and brexit ony being symptoms of the underlying rot.

Remember Putin's "multipolar world" speech? This is certainly what he hopes for. A multipolar world with single nations not belonging to a bloc or pact will make Russia stronger of course, after their own bloc/pact disintegrated in the 1990ies.
I am not sure but i think he is just waiting for NATO and a western pact breaking apart, and he did not even need to do something, the west does it all by itself.
I am not sure, but regarding what just now happens, the second Putin doubts there will be no unipolar retaliation by the west anymore, he will make his move.

I can come up with some countries Putin would invade, if NATO/EU collapse.
Ukraine, Moldova and most likely Gotland(Sweden)

France. I hope they'll find some other buyer to these 12 Sub.

Markus

[Skybird]

Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!"
On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands.
At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests.
But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one.
Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive.


etc etc etc



Ach Catfish... If only I could recognise myself in your claims on what I should have said, meant, implied. But I cannot, and so...

[Exocet25fr]

Mapuc wrote:
Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

:haha::haha::har::har::har::har:
Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!:yeah::O:

[mapuc]

Mapuc wrote:
Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe.

:haha::haha::har::har::har::har:
Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!:yeah::O:


As mentioned in one of my former comment. The only response NATO in Europe has is nukes.
NATO in Europe does not have much of a chance when it comes to conventional warfare

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

I'm sorry mapuc, I mistook about your message! :oops:

France. I hope they'll find some other buyer to these 12 Sub.

It seems India is interrested again with our subs!

The crisis is growing again tonight, and french people would be ok in the idea about an alliance with Russia and Chinese more trust than anglo-saxons, and why not Argentina, in this case USA shall be isolated and finished the america first, wait and see....!:)

And our new torpedoes and new Exocets version are on the top too!

[mapuc]

I'm sorry mapuc, I mistook about your message! :oops:

France. I hope they'll find some other buyer to these 12 Sub.

It seems India is interrested again with our subs!

The crisis is growing again tonight, and french people would be ok in the idea about an alliance with Russia and Chinese more trust than anglo-saxons, in this case USA shall be isolated and finished the america first, wait and see....!:)

That's OK, my English isn't exactly perfect.

Someone wrote that if Marie Le Pen won the next election in France, they will leave EU.
Don't know if this is true or not.
Leaving NATO ?
You as a citizens in France know more about what's going on and know if there are interest in leaving NATO.

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

Yes!, french people in majority suggests to leave nato, onu, oms, germany and ue , and destroy Calais walls!. We think about frexit and for others gain our TOTAL INDEPENDANCE to travel in this new wild world!:yep:

[Skybird]

Mapuc wrote:
Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe. :haha::haha::har::har::har::har:
Are you a comedian?, don't forget, we have a Powerful Nuclear Weapons, and believe me, we don't hesitate one second to use them counter any agressor!:yeah::O:
France starting a nuclear exchangd that would annihilate itself - because Russians take the Baltic, Poland or Hungary?

:har::har::har:
I dont believe that one second. Not before Russian tanks cross the border of isle de France this would be considered.



Meanwhile NATO is unable to even counter a quick rush of Russia into the three baltic states or eastern poland. They admitted that already years ago.



A Russian attack with the goal of seizing anything west of the verman-Polish border i practically rule out anyway.

[Skybird]

This is from France24. Balanced.

https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20210921-perception-that-france-is-too-soft-on-china-fed-australia-submarine-dispute



The US thinks about how to contain China. And Australia too is in the position of thinking about how one contains, as opposed to how one accommodates; that’s the fundamental difference with France.

[Skybird]

https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article233939206/Europaeische-Aussenpolitik-Der-U-Boot-Deal-ist-die-Antwort-auf-Angela-Merkels-Verrat.html
---------
The roles are finally clearly assigned again: The USA is the ruthless superpower that coldly asserts its interests in the world. Germany and Europe are the victims of American power politics - and are approaching autocratic great powers like China and Russia out of pure self-defense. The narrative was so nice and comfortable under Donald Trump. Now it's back under Joe Biden, the Germans and the Europeans see themselves as victims again. -

At first, Biden let the allies in Afghanistan run aground mercilessly. This was followed by the submarine deal with Australia, in which Europe was booted out in secret negotiations. But the allies' self-indulgence is ridiculous. Joe Biden just holds up a mirror to Germany and Europe: They would recognize their own hypocrisy if they could look through the streaks of their childish tears of anger. -

The submarine deal is the answer to Angela Merkel's betrayal. She had secretly and quietly negotiated an economic agreement with China with French President Emmanuel Macron. Joe Biden was elected, but not yet in office. The US government was not consulted - and had to watch impotently as Europe made it clear with the deal that it does not want to follow the US in their tough China policy. -

The message reached Biden: We want the military protection of the superpower USA, but at the same time we want to do good business with the enemies of the USA. In Afghanistan and in the submarine case, Biden made it clear to Europe that he would not accept this double-faced diplomacy. -

Unfortunately, it has to be doubted whether Europe understands that. Because foreign policy is reflected in the mood of the European population. Amazingly, Germans and Europeans still consider the conflict with China to be a purely American problem. Many citizens make no distinction between the totalitarian dictatorship of China and the USA - the country that liberated Europe. -

It is anti-American schizophrenia that Europe has practiced for decades. Joe Biden - he made this very clear between the lines in his speech to the United Nations - wants this hypocrisy to have its price in the future.

[Skybird]

And while I prepared the post above, I read that Chinese state shipping compoany Cosco has bought one third of the container terminal capacity in the harbour of hanmburg.

And Hamburg and Germany celebrate it.

If I were America, this would be my advise. Europoe and Germany in special are wildely determined to become Islamic - what one sees as Islam at least and what has little to do with real Islam - and a vasall of China and a dependent of Russia. Military pressure will not prevent this, but serve as an excuse to grow even more anti-American sentiments. So, pull out all military fromEurope, avoid the palce and leav eEurope to itself. Act on China and Russia without considering Europe'S desires.

Do your own thing, and do not care. To hell with the EU Kindergarden. Just the UK's territory can serve as a nice bridgehead for electronic surveillance of Europe.

Europe is lost ground.

Quesiton is why Europe has this anti-American sentiment, although it were the Americans saving it from the Third Reich. There is a lesson to be learned, becasue the moral of the soty is a general one: people do not like to be reminded of their inferiority and weakness. Thats why Greece agitated so heavily against Germany although Germany bailed out Greece substantially, and that is why Germany is criticised in Europe substantially although it pays the biggest share of the bloc's bills and accepted financial obligations in form of Target-2 saldi equalling roughly one trillion Euros. And the same is with America: the way it unilaterally made decisions on Afghanistan shows how impotent Europe really is. The US can militarily roam almost at will globally, its logistical capabilties are one of its biggest strengths. Europe cannot even control its own borders form within. The US does not pay care for European animosities anymore and did what it and Australia wanted to do, without asking. Because Europe's opinion was not asked for - it simply did not matter, and has no strength to make itself matter.

A cobbler should stick to his last. The EU should consider this - but no, they already make big words again. Hubris is what will destroy the EU from within. The writings are clearly visible on the wall already. My advise to America I gave above. My advise to the European nations is: stay in your garden and enjoy it, but stop wanting to missionise the world beyond the fence of yours. And replace that wooden fence with a solid stone wall better sooner than later.

[mapuc]

Reading your comment gave me the impression that USA have given France and EU a smack on their fingers.

I hope it will not go so far USA leave NATO.

Markus

[Skybird]

And maybe it wouldn'T be a bad thing, imo it wouldn'T be, if the Europeans, instead of babbling about a Euro army with all the additional costs for double structures, would invest their funds for that into NATO and start "dominating" in it over the next ten years or so, limiting its operational reach at the same time to Europe and the Atlantic, and taking over roles and replacing assets that a more and more pulling-out America would leave behind while it shifts its ressources from NATO and Europe, to AUKUS, Pacific and against China. That imo makes an awesome lot more of sense than this endless debate about having NATO and a EU army with 27 bosses and 27 different strategic orientations parallel to that.
Such an army would suffer the same politically caused inherent weaknesses as NATO today does. But that is true for a European army as well, so no difference on that.



I also would prefer if only the numerically stronger natiosn are present in that to-be-NATO. We need to scratch capitals from the list of debating voices, so to tailor command and making decision making structures fit for quick decision making. Too many chefs spoil the brew. More members not necessarily means stronger clubs. As I see it, having too many chefs paralyse themselves.



I would prefer to have the Brits in, but I think it is necessary and proper to calculate such future developments without them. I would not accept them in if they go split ways in both AUKUS and Europe, their armed force snumbers simpyl are too smal for that shizophrenia. Same is true for France. Unfortunately both nations still cry big tears for lost grandezza of their pasts, and dearly stick to these memores, France even more than Britain (what makes Paris attacks on London over claimed fixiation on past glory even more ridiculous). Why these countrys are not big enogzh in armed forces to pla yin both arenas? Becasue in one arena they are playing against China, and that is a completely different league than what they got used to in military adversaries of the past 60 years. Half-hearted efforts against such a heavy-weight enemy will be terribly punished.


Lesson by the end of the day is always the same. Europe must emergency-scramble on learning how to care for itself, by itself. The US in my view clearly is on the way out of Europe.

And Europe needs to learn that one cannot hug, caress and kiss a Chinese viper without getting bitten and poisoned to death. China does not see Europe as equal, or anyone, for that matter. China is the centre of the universe, and everybody else is expected to kneel and accept that. Else they will make him. And that belief is millenia old.

Appeasement does not work.

[Skybird]

Austrian blogger Andreas Unterberger comparing the Swiss and Australian decisions for American instead of French wepai deals, and what this indicates for France and Europe.

https://www-andreas--unterberger-at.translate.goog/2021/09/schweiz-und-australien-zwei-waffendeals-mit-globaler-explosionskraft/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui,elem


Switzerland and Australia: Two weapons deals with global explosive power

Several conflicts between actually solid western states over the purchase of American instead of French weapons are causing waves. Among these waves, a dozen global political trends and lessons can be recognized - which are only ignored in many places.

On the surface the loud and impotent French anger can be heard, which has broken out against both Switzerland and Australia at the same time. Here Paris angrily calls off a meeting of presidents; there it demonstratively convenes its ambassador.

Bern and Canberra have committed the same "offense": They buy American instead of French weapons. In Switzerland, it is the purchase of F-35 stealth jets instead of French Rafale aircraft. In the case of Australia, it is the purchase of nuclear-powered US submarines instead of diesel-powered submarines from France.

In the Australian business alone, Paris is missing out on a 56 billion euro deal. A comparison shows how enormous this sum is: The finance minister of the Austrian federal government can only expect 76 billion income from all Austrian taxpayers for the whole of 2021.

In Switzerland, no amount is known for the time being. But together, the simultaneous collapse of two such huge businesses for France and its president is an absolute disaster:

France is falling behind economically anyway.

After all, France's arms exports, alongside exports of electricity generated with nuclear power, were pretty much the last field where France was still able to earn important foreign exchange. Red wine and cheese alone don't do it.

Germany is also the main partner, at whose expense France was able to survive all crises for a long time, now itself in a serious multiple crisis.


President Macron is facing extremely difficult elections for him next spring, in which the double affair is likely to have a catastrophic effect, both in terms of public humiliation and economic damage. Macron had long hoped to be able to cover up the economic weakness of his country by conveying the impression of foreign policy strength.

That explains why he's howling so loud now. Of course, it is rather questionable whether this howling will trigger a rethink among arms buyers in Australia and Switzerland, or among American arms sellers.

It is also quite unclear what his demand for European solidarity is supposed to mean. After all, neither Switzerland nor Australia are EU members. And Switzerland - at least geographically in Europe - has been humiliated by the EU Commission for a long time with regard to the bilateral agreements between Bern and Brussels.

So it is very bold from France to demand solidarity anywhere. Or does Macron even think that Germany, as the relatively largest EU power, should have put pressure on buyers or Washington to call off the reorientation of arms purchases? That would be particularly naive: Germany in particular has brutally rejected the American president in the last few months when he vehemently demanded that Berlin stop the almost (and now completely) finished Russian-German gas pipeline. Not even the Germans are so stupid that they accept the enormous damage of a pipeline stop at five past twelve so that France can reap the huge benefits of one of the largest arms deals in recent history.

But what lessons can be learned from the double affair? What's behind that? A whole lot:

In both cases there is a lot to be said for the assumption that the American offers are simply better in terms of weapons technology. Above all, the US aircraft or submarines are much more difficult to detect by opposing forces. In addition, Australia accuses France of having exceeded the discussed schedules by years.

The Americans may also have been more flexible when it comes to price. You have a strong motive for this: After the embarrassing setback in Afghanistan, you urgently need international success.


Although the agreements are not known in detail (which is never the case with international arms deals), there are unlikely to have been any legally binding sales contracts that would give France a chance to sue for billions in international arbitration tribunals.

For both buyer countries, especially Australia, the USA is far more important in terms of security policy. These were posted after Afghanistan, but there is absolutely nothing where Europe could give the impression that it has become more militarily relevant than America.

It is downright embarrassing for Europe and Macron in particular that they took Joe Biden's pro-European rhetoric at face value. Such niceties aren't worth 50 cents when it comes down to it. When it comes to the interests of his country, Biden and Donald Trump act absolutely the same as the heads of all other countries. Not having understood this is really embarrassing. You can read in every textbook on international politics that every reasonable country has its own interests at the top, and friends and political morals only come a long way behind.

This principle of national interests naturally also applies to buyers. And for Australia in particular, the USA is about a hundred times more important than France in terms of its own security. That would be a serious decision-making argument even if US weapons were not technically better. The French still fail to realize that 70 years have passed since they played a role anywhere in East Asia. But in the last 70 years they have relegated from the Indochinese colonial power to a European regional power.

The most important global aspect of the conflict is the security situation in the Pacific and South China Seas. The Chinese approach to become world power number one worries Australia, the USA and Great Britain enormously, so that they have entered into a new security alliance that tries to counter China's urge to expand through a kind of "containment" with a stop signal.


At first glance, this alliance looks like a mere revival of the old Anglo-Saxon alliance, in which only the former partner New Zealand is missing. There a socialist prime minister cares more about feminist, climate, political correctness and Aboriginal issues than about the security of her country.

In truth, however, the strategic dimension goes far beyond that. There are at least strong indications that this three-party alliance is also viewed with a great deal of sympathy by a number of countries bordering that area, which also include the prospect of future cooperation. At least since the brutal Chinese crackdown on Hong Kong, since the occupation of islands actually belonging to other countries, and since China's gain in influence in Afghanistan, Myanmar and Pakistan, these states have raised the level of alert significantly. It is about the great powers Japan (a close US ally since the World War) and India (whose relationship with the United States has become friendlier from year to year; this relationship has survived the move from Trump to Biden well). It is about Taiwan and South Korea (both of which have always been completely dependent on US protection), the Philippines, Malaysia and even Vietnam, despite the similarity of the form of government (China and Vietnam are a communist-capitalist dictatorship) is an old opponent of the Chinese. Closer military cooperation between Vietnam and the USA would be a world-historical sensation. After all, the Vietnam debacle was the worst defeat for the United States in its entire history.


There can be no question at all that the center of world politics for the next few decades will be in this space. Even Russia, the old adversary of the West, is out of the game there - out of weakness, but also out of uncertainty about what would actually best serve its own interests.

At first glance, it is certainly advantageous for the European Union if Europe is no longer the central (also war) arena of global political confrontations, as it has been for centuries.

On the other hand, the double arms sales affair makes it clearer than ever: Europe urgently needs its own security identity if it wants to defend its own interests. It can no longer rely on the USA as it did in the 20th century, nor on the British who were bullied out of the EU. The Americans have largely lost interest in Europe, where they have only ever received instructions, but no willingness to commit themselves sufficiently to common security (NATO). And, ironically, the British have now begun exactly the British-American cooperation that Boris Johnson has been talking about for years, but which EU-Europeans have always portrayed as a pipe dream.

Europe therefore needs a real common security and defense policy more than ever: for its own comprehensive security; for securing his own environment, especially in the Mediterranean and North Africa; to stop the migrant invasion; in order (following the Australian example!) to secure landing sites for migrants to be deported; to prevent the spread of Islamism; to secure its commercial interests; to be able to take effective internal action against terrorism, cyberattacks and civil unrest; but also so as not to be so embarrassingly tricked as it has now happened to the French. What shouldn't be viewed with glee in the other EU countries either, but rather recognized as economic damage for the whole of Europe!

But what is happening in the EU?

They haven't woken up there in recent years, even due to the violent wars in Syria and Libya. Although these took place and are taking place in the immediate vicinity of the EU, the conflicts - apart from a few donations of words - have largely been left to others: Russians, Turks, Iranians, Kurds, Egyptians and a little bit the Americans (but also quickly in these two conflicts lost interest again).

In EU Europe, the really important issues are totally neglected: Alongside the internal market and economic stability, this is clearly military security. Instead, a left-wing liberal majority, abandoned by all good spirits, is trying to make the reverence for gays, transvestites and "diverse people", excessive debt accumulation and the humiliation of Eastern European members the central content of the Union.

You grasp your head in despair.

[Exocet25fr]

Many blabla here proves the worry........:)

Skybird wrote:

In both cases there is a lot to be said for the assumption that the American offers are simply better in terms of weapons technology. Above all, the US aircraft or submarines are much more difficult to detect by opposing forces.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/war-games-swedish-stealth-submarine-sank-us-aircraft-carrier-116216

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/navy-aircraft-carrier-was-sunk-2015-french-nuclear-submarine-190452

:Kaleun_Applaud:

Joe Biden said:

“With our values ​​and our strength, we will defend our allies and our friends, and oppose the attempts of the stronger countries to dominate the weaker”, he insisted.

:D USA is the good one stronger country, of course ? :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Points well written and taken Sky but a word of caution to one poster here.....one should think carefully before attempting to belittle US military strength and achievements. Some countries have a history of being conquered and surrendering.

Just saying :shucks:

[Commander Wallace]

Many blabla here proves the worry........:)

Skybird wrote:

In both cases there is a lot to be said for the assumption that the American offers are simply better in terms of weapons technology. Above all, the US aircraft or submarines are much more difficult to detect by opposing forces.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/war-games-swedish-stealth-submarine-sank-us-aircraft-carrier-116216

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/navy-aircraft-carrier-was-sunk-2015-french-nuclear-submarine-190452

:Kaleun_Applaud:

Joe Biden said:

“With our values ​​and our strength, we will defend our allies and our friends, and oppose the attempts of the stronger countries to dominate the weaker”, he insisted.

:D USA is the good one stronger country, of course ? :haha:



The Swedish submarine that " sank " an American carrier was a Diesel Electric submarine. It also employed the newest technology with regards to AIP propusion. What's more, the exercise was in fact an exercise to test sensors, nothing more.

It did however show that specially equipped diesel electric submarines that are specially outfitted can remain underwater as quiet as an open grave. Every major power that employs Submarines understands this.

Further, with regards to the deal between France and Australia, it has been well documented that Australia had misgiving years ago about the French designs and their suitability to function in the intended environment in a competent way.

Add the fact that mismanagement on the part of the French saw the initial costs balloon from 40 $ billion to $60 billion, even before construction had begun, also showed problems emerging. That sounds like the " classic bait and switch " tactic and it just backfired. It should come as no surprise That Australia cancelled the submarine deal and looked for alternatives.


https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/australian-documents-showed-french-submarine-project-was-risk-years-2021-09-21/

[Otto Harkaman]

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/INTERACTIVE-Submarines-per-country.png

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson has told the French president to "donnez-moi un break" and get over his anger about a new military pact between the UK, US and Australia.

Speaking to reporters in Washington, he said it was time for "some of our dearest friends" to "prenez un grip".

Paris is angry after Australia signed the Aukus pact to build nuclear-powered submarines, pulling out of a major contract with France in the process.

Mr Johnson insisted they were "not trying to shoulder anybody out".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58654624

[Skybird]

Joe Biden said:

“With our values ​​and our strength, we will defend our allies and our friends, and oppose the attempts of the stronger countries to dominate the weaker”, he insisted.

:D USA is the good one stronger country, of course ? :haha:

China builds every 3.5 years that many ships that the whole French navy currently calls its own in all its operational theatres. Not even 6000 personnel scattered across various islands and atolls make France a lightweight in the Far East - and a bad bet for Australia to count on for prtecting it by some superclever superbiased French strategy designed to not spoil business contracts with China. France does not want a stronger Australia capable to stand up against Chinese bullying.

Paris belittles London a lot concerning "living in memories of a glorious past empire." Maybe Paris would be well-advised to look in the mirror first before risking such mockery.


------


Sooner or later the US and the EU member states will seriously collide over European support for China. Will be interesting to see what choice Europeans make if Washington forces them to pick sides instead of wantignto dance on both parties simultaneously. Biden gave first two impressions of how things will go in the future, with Afghanistan and the submarines. I think many Republicans and Europeans alike, did not see this coming.

[Exocet25fr]

Skybird wrote:

"Sooner or later the US and the EU member states will seriously collide over European support for China. Will be interesting to see what choice Europeans make if Washington forces them to pick sides instead of wantignto dance on both parties simultaneously. Biden gave first two impressions of how things will go in the future, with Afghanistan and the submarines. I think many Republicans and Europeans alike, did not see this coming."

About France all shall depend of the next French president(e)?, Vassal macron is alone !, Bruno Le Maire (Economy Minister), opposition and French People opinion have no more trust in the USA!, and all they are furious after the call phone!.

The following link is in French, if you understand the french langage, you will see the comments wich disapprove our president decision.

https://actu.orange.fr/politique/sous-marins-nous-ne-pouvons-plus-compter-sur-les-etats-unis-pour-notre-protection-selon-bruno-le-maire-magic-CNT000001EDL60.html

Wait and See, and about China why not....?!:hmmm:

De Gaulle was right about leave Nato!, shame to Sarkozy for reinstate it!

[ET2SN]

Meanwhile, this vid should scare the beejesus out of all of us. :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2KaEKs1LA

Just my opinion, but an armed conflict would feature moderate to heavy military casualties at sea and massive civilian casualties on land.
Not just Taiwan and Australia, but also the Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, basically anyone in the line of fire. Then, there is the economic impact that will ripple out to India and, eventually, Europe.

Which makes it all so ironic. China and Taiwan currently trade with each other quite a bit and control a large portion of transport shipping. Is China really expecting a return to normalcy two months after a shooting war?

"Sorry we targeted your cities and population. BTW, we're ready to take orders for refrigerators and microwave ovens as soon as you are."

:doh:

[mapuc]

Lets pray such a war is far away.

Markus

[Skybird]

Which makes it all so ironic. China and Taiwan currently trade with each other quite a bit and control a large portion of transport shipping. Is China really expecting a return to normalcy two months after a shooting war?

Yes (though maybe not in two months). Normalcy dictated by conditions set by them.

Do not use Western standards to assess the value of their decisions. Use THEIR standards and see through THEIR eyes.

Thanks to globalization and thanks to European fixiation on seeing China not as an enemy, but an economic competitor but else: a partner for cooperation, Europe will react too late and will be too dependent to act forcefully and is not capable anyway to make any difference in the region.

Its not just Taiwan. Its also the South Chinese Sea. And practically every neighbour of theirs.

And its their leader who implements his family clan as the new imperial dynasty. Xi is, in relative comparison to the rest of the world, the by far most powerful Chinese emperor since many, many centuries. And look how much Chiense people are worried by that: not at all.

And that should worry us non-Chinese more than anything.

My only hope remaining is that China has on Heinsohn's war-index an as-low index value as the US and European countries, it is around just 1, like the American, with Europeanb values usually being clearly below 1.

Heinsohn also points at something else, and that is the competitiveness of systems due to education levels and "intellectual brightness". Here, the Asian natiosn and namely China are on direct path to leave the worlds behind. And that will make itself felt in economic and scientific contexts and will bring us into deeper and deeper dependencies. Whereas in the US, the falling levels of educaiton amognsat whites is one of the reasons for the upfalring racism that rips its society apart, because white students no longer are the elite amongst educated ethnic groups, but have been left behind. This adds to the general feel amongst certain white groups to be loosing and be left behind. They feel that because it is true, not just imagination.



Why this matters? Becasue a dividing union in North America makes sure that America will be more and more busy with just itself, being distracted increasingly from world affairs. Of course it also means that military technology quality increasingly shifts in favour of China, which in many fields already is en par, in a few: superior. These are no longer forces that only win by overwhelming numbers.

https://heinsohn-gunnar.eu/mt-content/uploads/2020/12/32-0008-america_s-brainpower-up-to-2050-heinsohn-12-2010.pdf


https://think-beyondtheobvious.com/stelters-lektuere/aktueller-war-index-von-gunnar-heinsohn/

[Gorpet]

Skybird wrote:

"Sooner or later the US and the EU member states will seriously collide over European support for China. Will be interesting to see what choice Europeans make if Washington forces them to pick sides instead of wantignto dance on both parties simultaneously. Biden gave first two impressions of how things will go in the future, with Afghanistan and the submarines. I think many Republicans and Europeans alike, did not see this coming."

About France all shall depend of the next French president(e)?, Vassal macron is alone !, Bruno Le Maire (Economy Minister), opposition and French People opinion have no more trust in the USA!, and all they are furious after the call phone!.

The following link is in French, if you understand the french langage, you will see the comments wich disapprove our president decision.

https://actu.orange.fr/politique/sous-marins-nous-ne-pouvons-plus-compter-sur-les-etats-unis-pour-notre-protection-selon-bruno-le-maire-magic-CNT000001EDL60.html

Wait and See, and about China why not....?!:hmmm:

De Gaulle was right about leave Nato!, shame to Sarkozy for reinstate it!

Joe Biden is nothing but a mouth piece of the wealthy who at this point in time call the shots for america. Apparently the french wealthy masters and our masters don't agree . Your masters have eyeballs on south america maybe the next retreat for them. If you can tell me why France after WW2 has found its self "without a bunch of bull****" in this position as an american i would like to know.
We who live in the states and the counties within those states of america don't get any information.We are not as free as the world think's. Hell our government will not even provide free language programs we can install on our computers to learn all the languages of the immigrant's that are flooding our borders. So if you feel butt hurt Look to your wealthy masters.Maybe be we should have elected the the person who has spent half their lives as a plumber. ce ya

[mapuc]

This French company has sent a bill to Australia for breaking the agreement.

As said before I hope a conflict in the South China sea is far away...I fear though that it only need a tiny spark to ignite it.

Markus

[Gorpet]

Skybird wrote:

"Sooner or later the US and the EU member states will seriously collide over European support for China. Will be interesting to see what choice Europeans make if Washington forces them to pick sides instead of wantignto dance on both parties simultaneously. Biden gave first two impressions of how things will go in the future, with Afghanistan and the submarines. I think many Republicans and Europeans alike, did not see this coming."

About France all shall depend of the next French president(e)?, Vassal macron is alone !, Bruno Le Maire (Economy Minister), opposition and French People opinion have no more trust in the USA!, and all they are furious after the call phone!.

The following link is in French, if you understand the french langage, you will see the comments wich disapprove our president decision.

https://actu.orange.fr/politique/sous-marins-nous-ne-pouvons-plus-compter-sur-les-etats-unis-pour-notre-protection-selon-bruno-le-maire-magic-CNT000001EDL60.html

Wait and See, and about China why not....?!:hmmm:

De Gaulle was right about leave Nato!, shame to Sarkozy for reinstate it!

tried to post . it was great your panties would have been in a knot. But as usual when i hit post , after rechecking all spelling and hitting submit. it was gone. so i can only assume after a certain time an alithogram will determine what will be posted. If not that it will be by moderator.

[Gorpet]

Sorry, i have been told, give time and you will get a reply. This is why my response may take a while and when i make it. It doesn't matter, Time has past but i will always get an answer. Not instagram here so i must eat the crow. taste like ****. but i deserve it.

[Jimbuna]

If not that it will be by moderator.

No moderator intervention was involved, I presume you were simply 'timed out'

[ET2SN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7H4hjrVks

Meanwhile..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c3N_R2F4IM

:hmmm:

[Kapitan]

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/INTERACTIVE-Submarines-per-country.png

I would point out here this chart is in no way accurate

Also to note France's nuclear weapons are not available to NATO unlike the UK's which has a commitment as per the 1960's agreement to obtain polaris.

I would also caution using national interest as a source of information some of their writers have glaring errors in their articles.

NATO without the USA is effectively impotent and it is unlikely that they will withdraw given that a strong united Europe is key to USA security at home plus trade.

[mapuc]

Kapitan wrote

"NATO without the USA is effectively impotent and it is unlikely that they will withdraw given that a strong united Europe is key to USA security at home plus trade."

Maybe this was the reason Trump demanded that NATO members in Europe should increase their percentage on the military to 2 % of BNP.

Markus

[Kapitan]

Trump demanded something that every NATO member had already previously pledged and that is by 2024 all NATO members would be spending no less than 2% GDP on defence

[Jimbuna]

Trump demanded something that every NATO member had already previously pledged and that is by 2024 all NATO members would be spending no less than 2% GDP on defence

True that :yep:

[Otto Harkaman]

Decades Before Australia Sees First Nuke Submarine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnIHTqeaUIU

https://news.usni.org/2021/09/23/cno-gilday-developing-building-australian-nuclear-submarine-could-take-decades

[Skybird]

^ They absolutely need a dual ways strategy of buying submarines one by one and forming and training the crews needed for them, and parallel to that building the ship building infrastructure until they can build the subs themselves.

[Otto Harkaman]

The 5 Main Options For Australia’s AUKUS Nuclear Submarine Deal

As Australia looks set to join the elite club of nuclear submarine operators, we explore the options. The U.S. Navy's Virginia Class? The Royal Navy's Astute Class? Or something new? We have identified the 5 most obvious candidates.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/09/the-5-main-options-for-australias-aukus-nuclear-submarine-deal/

https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/AUKUS-Submarine-Virginia-Astute.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Either Virginia or Astute....both tried and tested but not so much the Astute.

[Otto Harkaman]

In the meantime the current Collins Class diesel-electric submarines will be upgraded to keep them operable.

Will these submarines be able to last as long as this project is looking to take?

[Skybird]

Either Virginia or Astute....both tried and tested but not so much the Astute.
Astute. Production capacity is free, the UK already got all its boats, so making the Aussie boats could start faster than any other of the available options. The order books of the makers of the Virgina are full.


If time is the deciding factor, there is no alternative to going with the Astute.

[mapuc]

Time will tell which decision the Australian government and RAN will make.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Astute. Production capacity is free, the UK already got all its boats, so making the Aussie boats could start faster than any other of the available options. The order books of the makers of the Virgina are full.


If time is the deciding factor, there is no alternative to going with the Astute.

Good points :yep:

[vienna]

I was hoping someone on YT would extract the relevant funny bit from this clip, but it hasn't happened; Stephen Colbert comments on the sub deal and there is an animation I think some of you might get a giggle from (although those from Oz might be a bit tweaked...); the bit starts at 2:45 into the whole clip, and ends at 3:40...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zdCxBX-hf0




<O>

[Kapitan]

I dont think the RAN will be going with astute even with a time factor consideration.
The UK hasn't got all its boats just yet Agamemnon and Agincourt are still in build at Barrow, yes they are in an advanced stage but the last boat is no where near ready to hit the water.

With that said now the last boat is in the advanced build stage preparations are being made to re tool to start building the dreadnoughts so from a supply chain standpoint restarting the line will be very costly from this point onwards as well as take time and possibly delay the dreadnought program.

It would make more sense for the RAN to jump on board the replacement program this would be cheaper and doesn't jeopardize other projects already on going.

The UK is not as blessed as the US in that we have just one ship yard capable of building a submarine so any delays or changes has a massive ripple effect for future builds.

[Exocet25fr]

The decision prompted a major diplomatic spat with one of the European Union's largest members and now appears to have hit ties with the entire bloc.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211001-eu-postpones-trade-talks-with-australia-amid-submarine-row

[Kapitan]

Not a bad thing to be honest a free trade deal with Europe generally never benefits anyone but Europe so they just saved themselves a fortune

Free trade is also a misnomer causes a lot more problems than it solves

There’s a debate here in Canada about pulling out of the Canada Europe free trade agreement

[Jimbuna]

Not a bad thing to be honest a free trade deal with Europe generally never benefits anyone but Europe so they just saved themselves a fortune



QFT :yep:

[Exocet25fr]

Ah! Ok!, so no problem.....:)

But Australia isn't uk or usa, it seems Canberra doesn't think like you ! so why Australian Trade Minister Dan Tehan was scheduled to travel to Europe for the talks about FTA?:hmmm:

Tehan indicated he plans to meet EU Trade Commissioner Valdis Dombrovskis next week to discuss and work towards concluding a free trade agreement!. I don't understand :yeah::06:

Anyway :yep:

[ET2SN]

Trade agreements are not the same as submarines. :yeah:

In the words of Vince Neil, "Don't go away mad, just go away". :yep:

[Kapitan]

Yea he was due to travel to conclude a deal however looking at the free trade deals already made by the EU with non EU countries like Canada shows they are not all what they are cracked up to be

Even inside Europe there’s a lot of bitterness the common agricultural policy fisheries policy the steel policy was not exactly warmly received in the UK or Norway the later forced their government into an election because of it

Canada’s free trade deal has been hurting western Canadian farmers who want out of the deal

Given that Australia has a similar economy to Canada in terms of exports it’s reasonable to assume that similar arrangements would likely to be made

Free trade agreements are not overly good in general and many countries around the world have complained to the WTO about European deals over the last decade and half

Even the German DW team made a big documentary about it all

https://youtu.be/DnW9ZQtI1_E

[Kapitan]

Trade agreements are not the same as submarines. :yeah:

In the words of Vince Neil, "Don't go away mad, just go away". :yep:

On the surface it’s about submarines in reality the AUKUS arrangement is much more than submarines and submarine technology there’s a lot more in it than that

On the flip side the barracuda would be a good project for india and possibly Canada both countries are currently looking for new submarines and with India you could recoup that 12 sub deal and expand on it

France has good ties with Canada so another 4 could be ordered n theory totalling 16 units

To be honest France has a good conventional submarine in the scorpene class if they adapted that for AIP I think there could be some serious buyers and it would rival Germany too

[mapuc]

They will indeed find other buyers to these subs.

About trade agreements.

Maybe I'm soft, but I would make an agreement where both parties are gaining from it.

Markus

[ET2SN]

AIP in a nuke hull with a full suite of sensors does not compute. :timeout:

That's like dropping a lawn mower engine in a 1970's Cadillac. In theory, it will move. Just, not much.

[Catfish]

^ Then they are doing something wrong, the first real AIP Walther U-boat made some 26 knots submerged :O:

[ET2SN]

^ Then they are doing something wrong, the first real AIP Walther U-boat made some 26 knots submerged :O:

On the batteries at a flank bell. :yeah:

Pretend I know what I'm writing. :03: I did my time on a diesel boat and a nuke. Generating power on a diesel/AIP is always about the minimums. Nukes generate power like its going out of style. Nukes can also run high bells for as long as the crew can stand it. :D

Getting back to Australia, the Pacific is freaking huge. Its not the same ball game as putting around coastal Europe.

[Catfish]

Did not mean the electric boats.
"The U-793 achieved a submerged speed of 22 kn (41 km/h; 25 mph) in March 1944 with Admiral Dönitz aboard. In June 1944 U-792 achieved 25 kn (46 km/h; 29 mph) over a measured mile."
Aip with H-peroxide in 1944

[Kapitan]

Did not mean the electric boats.
"The U-793 achieved a submerged speed of 22 kn (41 km/h; 25 mph) in March 1944 with Admiral Dönitz aboard. In June 1944 U-792 achieved 25 kn (46 km/h; 29 mph) over a measured mile."
Aip with H-peroxide in 1944

I read about this was an interesting concept and I know post war the British did build two boats the Excalibur and Explorer the crews nicknamed them the exploder class.
HTP is very unstable when it comes in to contact with some catalysts just take a look at what it did to Kursk.

I think the only boats that come close to the original walther design is the Swedish Gotland class.

ET2SN is right though the pacific is a different ball game to the Atlantic or coastal Europe in terms of distances needing to be traversed.
That said the Soryu is the most interesting of the conventional and very good at what they do realistically the aussies should have gone with these but the Japanese didn't want to build them outside Japan.

[mapuc]

I know Sweden invented something, which made it possible for a dieselsub to stay below surface for weeks without use of snorkel.

I also know that this invention is/was blocked for sale to other countries.

Like the American F-22 Raptor

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

"China is sending a political message to the US and UK on her national day: Don't mess around in my area."

https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20211002-taiwan-slams-largest-ever-incursion-by-chinese-into-air-defence-zone

[mapuc]

"China is sending a political message to the US and UK on her national day: Don't mess around in my area."

https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20211002-taiwan-slams-largest-ever-incursion-by-chinese-into-air-defence-zone

Do they mean, the area they have no right to demand

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Do they mean, the area they have no right to demand

Markus

Most probably :yep:

[Gorpet]

No moderator intervention was involved, I presume you were simply 'timed out'

Ok Jim, tks can't set on a butt and get a keyboard with letters that match your fingers.

[Buddahaid]

In depth analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDy4_ozmnw

[Exocet25fr]

AUKUS To Rafale To Nuclear Submarines? France & India Are Perfectly Placed To Forge A Nuke Sub Deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5yNJLQtm4

[Otto Harkaman]

^ very interesting (AUKUS and the Nuclear Option: the Life and Death of the Attack Class Submarine), I have only gotten to half way in the video and need to take a break to watch the rest.

[Kapitan]

Wouldn’t be a bad thing to see india and France forge ahead with a joint SSN program
They have better chance with the French than they do with the US in handling that technology

India already has its own SSN and SSBN programs but this could help them out a lot and be cheaper too

[Kapitan]

On another note would anyone want to see Canada involved in an AUKUS or for them to join the current treaty?

[Cybermat47]

Your last sentence, do you mean this military deal indicates a move away from coal-based power production in civilian industry, too?

Unlikely with our present Prime Minister. Man has a fetish for coal.

I would try to tell him that global warming is making it a lot harder on us firefighters, but he’s too busy vacationing in Hawaii when the nation is on fire.

[Skybird]

Australia has decided to abandon 48 European-made Taipan helicopters that it already operates, but is not satisfied with,l the machiens are said to be extremely unreliable and having logged only 50-55% of those flight hours that were planned for them, that high is the rate of tecnical down times for these (new!) helicopters that are licensed by Airbus.

Australia wants to buy 40 Blackhawks instead, saying these are proven, more reliable, and in the long run thus much more cost-efficient than the European helicopters. Critics say the cancelled submarine deal with France also freed funds in the short term that now must be reallocated.

I think it should be clear by now that Australia clearly prioritizes the US over Europe as a partner for the conflict with China. I cannot criticise them for this attitude. If I were Australia, I would not place my money on Europe, too.

[Kapitan]

I’m loathed to admit this but I also would y put my money with the European Union it seems they have no back bone what so ever with the exception of the Dutch

The UK I think will be steadfast and support Australia but logistically the USA is a much better logistically suited

[Skybird]

I’m loathed to admit this but I also would y put my money with the European Union it seems they have no back bone what so ever with the exception of the Dutch

The UK I think will be steadfast and support Australia but logistically the USA is a much better logistically suitedWhen I think of European defence projects, a proverb is on my mind: too many chefs spoil the broth.

[Exocet25fr]

Be care !, Many of French people and me clearly prioritizes the USSR over AUKUS as a partner ! :D
We don't trust any more with Anglo-saxons!

[Skybird]

And I trust no nation at all. As one of your great leaders put it: "States have no friends - states have interests." That includes France. Macronman has understood that.

But I fear Berlin has not. Or wants not. The new government clearly pushes for a European federal state replacing the EU. National self-dissolving, that is what they want. That way the Germans could finally get rid of what they dispise most: Germany. I did not get the impression that this was welcomed yesterday: neither in Paris nor in Warsaw, and most others will be against it as well. Different to the Germans, people in many other countries still feel their historically grown national identiies. Maybe sometimes still wallowing in echoes of glory of a past that does not reach into contemporary present conditions anymore. And still, it is a strong drive in many people. Especially the French (s I see them). ;) And the Brits (as I see them). Probably also the Spaniards (as I see them). Certainly the Poles (as I see them).


Powerpolitics in Paris and Warsaw, unlimited idealism in Berlin. A toxic constellation that is - for Germany.

[Kapitan]

Be care !, Many of French people and me clearly prioritizes the USSR over AUKUS as a partner ! :D
We don't trust any more with Anglo-saxons!

France prioritizes anyone over the UK but mainly focuses on itself and to hell with anyone else, its why we have been arch rivals for over 1000 years.

[Exocet25fr]

Before and after brexit UK mainly focuses on itself !:)

[Skybird]

"Aucune nation n’a d'amis, seulement des intérêts." - Neither by Churchill, nor Adenauer...

[Kapitan]

Before and after brexit UK mainly focuses on itself !:)

You are very correct

As does every nation I might add which is why history tells us that eventually the European Union will fail

[Exocet25fr]

The truth is that France lost this deal. :03:

Call it whatever you want, just don't let the door hit you in the back side. :O:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/20/australia-almost-no-chance-to-buy-any-submarine-from-current-us-building-program-experts-say?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Skybird]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/20/australia-almost-no-chance-to-buy-any-submarine-from-current-us-building-program-experts-say?CMP=share_btn_tw
Was that problem with production capacities really unforseeable? Have they not cared to check that first, have they done it and did not see it because they were - politicians! - overoptimistic, or has something in the situation dramatically changed?

[Otto Harkaman]

Australian Sailors Should be Underway on U.S. Submarines Now

https://news.usni.org/2022/07/27/wittman-australian-sailors-should-be-underway-on-u-s-submarines-now

[Kapitan]

Was that problem with production capacities really unforseeable? Have they not cared to check that first, have they done it and did not see it because they were - politicians! - overoptimistic, or has something in the situation dramatically changed?

Basically the RAN doctrine and strategic outlook changed substantially and conventional submarines no longer were capable of fulfilling the role.

[Kapitan]

Australian Sailors Should be Underway on U.S. Submarines Now

https://news.usni.org/2022/07/27/wittman-australian-sailors-should-be-underway-on-u-s-submarines-now

The have taken part in many of our SMCCs over the years we have RN personel in their navy as well as RAN in the RN

[Exocet25fr]

France could build submarines for Australia, after all :o

Pay before this time :D

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20220915-france-could-build-submarines-for-australia-after-all

[Kapitan]

France could build submarines for Australia, after all :o

Pay before this time :D

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20220915-france-could-build-submarines-for-australia-after-all

Right now there’s nothing in the wind on that score

I would also suggest it’s highly improbable as well given current state of affairs

If anything I can see a bigger lifex for the Collins class which would be cheaper than waiting for France to put something on the table

[Jimbuna]

Right now there’s nothing in the wind on that score

I would also suggest it’s highly improbable as well given current state of affairs

If anything I can see a bigger lifex for the Collins class which would be cheaper than waiting for France to put something on the table

Agreed :yep:

[Exocet25fr]

I agree too !:)

I hope no more future contracts between australia and France :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Understanding AUKUS

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/understanding-aukus/

[Platapus]

Understanding AUKUS

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/understanding-aukus/


A nice clear explanation. Thanks for positing it

[Jimbuna]

A nice clear explanation. Thanks for positing it

Your welcome :salute:

[Reece]

I agree too !:)

I hope no more future contracts between australia and France :salute:

So do I. :Kaleun_Applaud:

[Jimbuna]

So do I. :Kaleun_Applaud:

:haha:

[Exocet25fr]

HO ! clever persons here......:Kaleun_Applaud:

[Reece]

Call it a weakness!! :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Call it a weakness!! :yeah:

Or even wisdom :03:

[Skybird]

Australia will buy 5 Virginia boats form the US in the 2030s. That is an interims solution, they want to rebuild a new class for the time after those buyings, basing on the British Astute class and American submarine technology.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/australia-expected-buy-up-5-virginia-class-submarines-part-aukus-sources-2023-03-08/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-08/australia-s-nuclear-powered-subs-will-use-a-uk-design-to-counter-china

https://www.wsj.com/articles/australia-to-buy-u-s-nuclear-powered-submarines-in-naval-expansion-1bd94418

The long haul solution - if they are able to financially maintain it through all those years.

[ET2SN]

I'm hearing rumblings that it will be several Astute class boats. :smug:

This makes more sense to me. No worries about the steering wheel being on the wrong side. :O:

Actually, the Astute class would be better due to the amount of littoral waters near Oz plus the UK no longer needs the blueprints and already worked out all of the bugs. Cross training would be a little easier as well. :yep:

The Virginia class is good but the hulls are also longer which complicates a lot of things.

[Skybird]

I do not speculate, only give latest news reports from today.

[ET2SN]

Who are you going to trust, The Wall Street Journal or ....me? :D

The WSJ reported that something will initially be built in the US, they didn't say it would be a Virginia class boat. :03:

I think the reporters are jumping the gun a bit. The reactor and engine room stuff are rumored to be US-designed. Building the initial boats at E-B or in Norfolk doesn't stack up. The Navy wants more Va. class boats ASAP. Building the AUKUS boats would mean doubling the size and payroll of the US shipyards unless the US Navy is happy chilling out for several years (BTW, don't forget the new Columbia class SSBN). See where something has to give?


:hmmm:

[Skybird]

I linked three articles from Reuters, WSJ, and Bloomberg. All three articles say what they say, and they do not say anything different.

I cannot argue with any of them, I am not in a position to do so. I just link these three articles, they are all from yesterday.

I found it in a German story, that also provided the three links in its summary of them all three. The summary is: first five "quick" boats of American design to get a first solution to close the most urgent holes, and then a longer lasting development most likely including tech from the US and from the Astutes.

[Reece]

This makes more sense to me. No worries about the steering wheel being on the wrong side. :O:


:har::har:

[mapuc]

Hmm I thought the steering wheel on a sub was positioned somehow in the middle of the width of the sub.

Markus

[Skybird]

The side of the steering wheel does not concern me since the captain commands it with voice controls anyway ("Make it so"), but in Down Under I think up must mean down, and down means up?


I would control the construction of the dive planes on anything build in Australia two and three times before boarding. Else I may find I brought a swimsuite while indeed the sub goes flying.

[Reece]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJmg-879j5o

[ET2SN]

You're making this wayyyyyyyy too complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xho2Z1xS7g


:Kaleun_Goofy:

[Jimbuna]

Sunak is on his way to the US to finalise the defence pact.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64929819

[Skybird]

^


"The plan is for nuclear submarines to be built in Adelaide, south Australia, with the UK and US providing consultation on technology for their production.The UK is hoping the Aukus pact will result in work for UK shipyards, with reports suggesting Canberra could select to build a modified version of the British Astute-class submarine, while taking delivery of up to five US Virginia-class submarines during the production stage.


In addition to submarines, the pact is committed to information and technology exchange between the three nations in areas ranging from intelligence and quantum technology to the acquisition of cruise missiles."

[ET2SN]

We'll know more on Monday. :up:

I'm still not so sure about the "taking delivery of Virginia class boats" part. :hmmm:

Just a WAG on my part, but providing forward basing for five US subs sounds more plausible. The US retains ownership and crews and there will be knife fights in the parking lots of San Diego and Pearl Harbor over which boats get forward deployed. :D

[Skybird]

But it makes perfetc sense the way it ets repoprted. SSN do not dveelope themselves, but need experience with pöratccially hadlöing thme, by triane crews. Many y<ears will pass by before the first Australian "Astute 2.0 AUS" gets laucnhed. Until then they need to fill the gaps in their submarine fleet. And so they buy from the ready rack of what is on offer. It reminds a bit of the Poles buying tanks and fighters and howitzer in Korea. Most of the toal volume will be build in - Poland, only ht eifrst systems will be - and already are - delivered form Korea.


Whatever. The numbers probably will shrink but the meat gets now added to the skeleton of the AUKUS idea.

[Skybird]

The press conference is running. They confirmed this: three Virginas will be aquired by AUS early next decade, with crew training done via Briotish and Americna boats stationed in Australia, and an option to buy two more boats, and after that the ultimate goal is a completely new submarine design named SSN-AUKUS that will combine British and American submarine technology.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-64945036

All what I said, you hear me ET2SN...? :D even the reduction of numbers that I predicted. https://img.fotocommunity.com/storyteller-lange-nase-8819e848-6fa4-44c8-8742-a6849b47b776.jpg?height=1000

[ET2SN]

All what I said, you hear me ET2SN...? :D https://img.fotocommunity.com/storyteller-lange-nase-8819e848-6fa4-44c8-8742-a6849b47b776.jpg?height=1000

:haha::har::Kaleun_Cheers:

Well played, Sky. :yeah:

I need to read this stuff for a couple of days to make heads or tails out of it. :doh:

My idea of having the US (and UK, I guess) forward deploy SSNs to Oz came out. :O: Now, they just need a base so they have somewhere to park and load supplies.

-If you live in Oz and you're getting tired of just playing games, this might be a great time to talk to the recruiter. This plan will have to be a long-term commitment, so no worries about a Navy draw-back in the long run. Getting into the program early can mean some long days BUT you would also be getting in on the ground floor if you're thinking "career".

-If you live in the US and want a really cool job, Ingalls and EB will probably want to talk to you. :yep: With EB, you'll want to move to CT. or R.I. for about six months prior to dropping your application (trust me, it helps).

So, this is really early and my Swamy hat doesn't fit right :doh: but it sounds like-

- Three Va. class new-construction boats get sold to Oz between 2024 to 2027 or 2028. Just to add some windage, let's call it 2025 to 2030. As soon as a base is ready, the US and UK provide forward deployed boats for at-sea training and ops.

- By 2030 (???) the UK's SSN(R) program comes online and delivers new boats to the UK and Oz. Meanwhile, Oz has to hustle to build a submarine ship yard for new construction and refit. They also need to train the Engineers and laborers to staff this ship yard. This is where things start to get dicey, IMO. We're assuming the people and government of Australia will stay committed to the long haul. Building all of this infrastructure will crater if Oz thinks they can build a new hull every 3-5 years or so. There's also the big question of just how many SSNs Australia wants?

- Meanwhile, the PRC has their centennial in 2049. They also have some hurdles in terms of their population and over-all wealth. Its very possible that India becomes the new power broker in the region or that China has to make some big changes along the way.


Anyway, discuss... :salute:

[Kapitan]

Overall I do think Australia will revise from 8 down to 6 which seems to be a manageable number.

But it is great news that UK and Australia will once again operate the same type of boats.

[ET2SN]

I thought I should post this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMarGQC_Yag

From the mouths of the horses, as it were.
It is tough to have a strong grasp on what's really going on, and how all of it will play out. :doh:

[Jimbuna]

No prizes for guessing the Chinese reaction.

China has accused the US, UK and Australia of “going further down a dangerous road” as the three nations meet to discuss further nuclear support in the IndoPacific. China’s foreign ministry accused the three countries, who are discussing the supply of nuclear-capable submarines to Australia, as “disregarding” the concerns of the international community as tensions in the IndoPacific continue to worsen. Australia's defence minister said the deal was necessary to counter the biggest conventional military buildup in the region since World War II, though he refrained from explicitly mentioning China.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1746031/China-backlash-UK-USA-Australia-submarines-deal-latest

[ET2SN]

..and another report on what this deal will look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOT8TJfnZ7Y


:doh:

The running guess seems to be that Australia will buy one or three or five Virginias as a stop gap until 2050 when the new SSN comes on-line. So, take your pick. There are plenty of options. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Latest prototype undergoing sea trials :)

https://i.postimg.cc/zv3N2Y8v/FY2d-Sl4-Us-AE4-MHW.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Skybird]

When I was a little boy I loved this book for the submarines on its cover:






https://images.booklooker.de/s/02LQ2J/Victor-Appleton+Tom-Swift-Tauchfahrt-ins-Abenteuer.jpg

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arj-LiWYNQU

[ET2SN]

When I was a little boy I loved this book for the submarines on its cover:






https://images.booklooker.de/s/02LQ2J/Victor-Appleton+Tom-Swift-Tauchfahrt-ins-Abenteuer.jpg

All I had to see was Tom Swift. :yeah:

I spent many weekends as a child searching for formations of Tomacite. :D
That series is much older than you may think. There were Tom Swift books dating back to WWI.

[Aktungbby]

When I was a little boy I loved this book for the submarines on its cover:






https://images.booklooker.de/s/02LQ2J/Victor-Appleton+Tom-Swift-Tauchfahrt-ins-Abenteuer.jpg

All I had to see was Tom Swift. :yeah:

I spent many weekends as a child searching for formations of Tomacite. :D
That series is much older than you may think. There were Tom Swift books dating back to WWI. ....All of which leads to the Red October evading into in the Laurentin Abyss:O:https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-27bb3fc8da5a661dae229b7134901b15-lq:yeah:

[Skybird]

All I had to see was Tom Swift. :yeah:

I spent many weekends as a child searching for formations of Tomacite. :D
That series is much older than you may think. There were Tom Swift books dating back to WWI.

Really...? I had no clue.

Sure you do not mix this up with something else? How could they had visions of submarines 100 years ago that looked more modern than the most modern science subs we have today? I mean this book was science fiction for 1970s kids. But I do not remember the story anymore.

[Jimbuna]

Macron remains unhappy apparently.

Macron's veiled threat that UK's Aukus deal could fuel 'nuclear confrontation' with China
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/macron-s-veiled-threat-that-uk-s-aukus-deal-could-fuel-nuclear-confrontation-with-china/ar-AA18GP3y?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=d1e9f44ecb7445c8a388b225dc11a7be&ei=28

[ET2SN]

Really...? I had no clue.

Sure you do not mix this up with something else? How could they had visions of submarines 100 years ago that looked more modern than the most modern science subs we have today? I mean this book was science fiction for 1970s kids. But I do not remember the story anymore.

I enjoy it when you doubt me. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swift_and_His_Electric_Rifle

I'm pretty sure "Victor Appleton" and "Victor Appleton Jr." were pen names shared by several authors. Tom Swift was one of the original novel franchises aimed at youths. I found a really old hard cover of Tom and his amazing battle tank (AKA: Doing His Bit For Uncle Sam) from 1912 or so. :up:

I'm fairly sure that Tom got ripped off and became Jonney Quest in the 1960's. :03:

Needless to say, if you can find any of the hard cover books from the 1950's and earlier, hang on to them!

Here's a better explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swift

[Skybird]

I enjoy it when you doubt me. :D


Always a pleasure! :haha:



I do not remember the story in that book, just have a vague idea that it described pretty modern technology and design and story. So I assume that the claimed author and character was indeed, as you indicated, "stolen".



What I liked in it also were the black-and-white ink-drawn illustrations, depicting very modern submarine design shrunk to toy size and with plexi-glass bows. :) That was soooo coooool!

[ET2SN]

Going back to Tom and his electric rifle...

Sixty years later a non-lethal weapon delivering an electric shock was developed by Jack Cover and marketed by Taser International under the name "Taser", an acronym for Thomas A. Swift's Electric Rifle. The middle initial 'A' is used to produce a word more pronounceable than "TSER", as no other name than "Tom Swift" is used for the book's hero.


:o

[Skybird]

^ :)

[ET2SN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igqs1qDbnK4


Some new stuff from 4 Corners.

There are many challenges to this program, and now is a good time to ask the questions. :yeah:

[Reece]

Macron remains unhappy apparently.

Macron's veiled threat that UK's Aukus deal could fuel 'nuclear confrontation' with China
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...dc11a7be&ei=28 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/macron-s-veiled-threat-that-uk-s-aukus-deal-could-fuel-nuclear-confrontation-with-china/ar-AA18GP3y?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=d1e9f44ecb7445c8a388b225dc11a7be&ei=28)Worf depicts Macron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffdCVjH-Q3k

[Jimbuna]

BAE Systems awarded contract to build Australia’s nuclear submarines

BAE Systems has been awarded a contract to build Australia’s nuclear-powered submarines as part a of joint military programme.

The deal, which will see the British firm partner with Australian government-owned company ASC, forms part of the Aukus partnership between the UK, Australia and the US.

Speaking on a visit to the Osborne Naval Shipyard in Adelaide, Defence Secretary Grant Shapps said the deal showed the “huge confidence” Australia has in UK’s defence industry.

Mr Shapps, who was joined by his Australian counterpart Richard Marles and US ambassador to Australia Caroline Kennedy, said: “Through these collaborations, British industry will grow, and thousands of jobs will be created across the country, delivering security and prosperity to our two nations.”
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said the Australian investment – believed to be around £2.4 billion over the next 10 years – and funding from the MoD would allow Rolls-Royce, which will deliver the nuclear propulsion plants, to double the size of its Derby sit and create 1,170 skilled jobs.

BAE said it has increased its UK submarines workforce to 13,500 with plans to grow to around 17,000

The submarine programme is expected to create 7,000 UK jobs with more than 21,000 people working on the SSN-Aukus submarine programme at its peak, concentrated in Barrow-in-Furness and Derby.

The first UK submarines built to this design will be delivered in the late 2030s to replace the current Astute Class vessels and the first Australian submarines will follow in the early 2040s.

The appointment of a builder by Australia comes a year after Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese and US President Joe Biden announced the first generation of Aukus submarines would be based on the UK’s world-leading design.

BAE Systems chief executive Charles Woodburn said: “We’re already making good progress on the design and development of the next generation submarine in the UK where we have more than 1,000 people working on the SSN-Aukus programme and major infrastructure investment underway.

“This latest step will ensure an integral connection between the UK design and the build strategy development in Australia as we work together to deliver next generation military capability as well as considerable social and economic value to all three nations.”

The announcement follows the signing of a new Defence and Security Co-Operation Agreement between the UK and Australia.

Foreign Secretary Lord David Cameron and Mr Shapps were meeting their opposite numbers Mr Marles and foreign minister Penny Wong on Thursday as part of the annual Australia-UK meetings.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/bae-systems-awarded-contract-to-build-australia-s-nuclear-submarines/ar-BB1kjMJs?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=65eb43ad0324455db8896d41fdad6104&ei=27

[Skybird]

The first UK submarines built to this design will be delivered in the late 2030s to replace the current Astute Class vessels and the first Australian submarines will follow in the early 2040s.


Well. No need to comment this, eh?

[Exocet25fr]

better late than never !:D

[Skybird]

better late than never !:D
:)


How long did they say would it have taken the French to deliver their boats before the Aussies sent them home telling them they were behind time table? :DI think it was not THAT long, wasn't it?

Eile mit Weile... Its just that China will not have that much patience, most likely.

[Exocet25fr]

better late than never TOO ! :)