Canada and its Possible new submarine

[Kapitan]

Canada has announced recently that it intends to replace its ageing Upholder / Victoria class submarines.

https://www.subsim.com/navy-kicks-off-long-anticipated-push-to-replace-canadas-beleaguered-submarine-fleet/

Just thinking aloud here in what the design requirements and specifications will be for the replacement submarine (they haven't been published publicly yet) I think it will be safe to say there will be a few key areas Canada wont want to budge on.

1) Must be built and Maintained in Canada (Unless Domestic building cost prohibitive the latter requirement is likely to take precedent)
2) Reasonable cost per unit
3) have long open ocean endurance (60-90 days)
4) Be conventional or AIP
5) Be a proven design likely already in service
6) Capable of having the American Lockheed fire control suite
7) Have the ability to fire MK48 torpedoes, Mines and ASM Missiles (likely Harpoon at this stage)
8) Have a life span of 40 years


With this in mind I think there are only a few real contenders in the making those being:

Japan Soryu class
German Type 212CD
Sweden A26
France / Australia Barracuda

Given the issues with the French design and handling with the current Australian requirement I would give that bid a medium chance of getting through, Canada has more ties with France that is for sure but could the current Franco-Australian problems put them off?

Sweden has a good design in the A26 yes they have an ocean going variant for possible export which is larger than the initial A26 but they have no buyers, Denmark was a joint partner in the early 2000's but ceased submarine operations in 2004.
Also the early debacle with the Australian Collins class may put a dampener on things.

Japans Soryu class fits the bill it is probably the most superior submarine of them all, they are fairly expensive per unit, the key issue is while these submarines are available for export (it ran in the Australian bid) Japan is reluctant to have them built outside Japan (This is why the Australians didn't select the boat)

Germany Type 212CD a much larger variant of the type 212 is currently being built for Germany and Norway, very capable submarines and they can be built outside of Germany, personally I think this design would be the winner as Canada routinely operates with the Norwegian navy.


I would like to know what you think folks is there another design out there ? one that may clinch the deal?

[Kapitan]

Just my thoughts and opinions in this article

https://www.navygeneralboard.com/canadas-next-generation-submarine/

[Catfish]

How can you possibly choose between secret technology you do not know :03:
I do not even have the hull form of said ships, i take it that the technical systems and electronics can be chosen from different producers and may well double the initial price.
What is the draft of those subs, speed, maximum diving depth etc., no real knowledge about different aip systems, is Kockum's better than the german one, how easy to maintain and refill, what about electronic warfare units and so on.
How are the canadian preferences, what is mandatory for them and so on.. so no real idea.

England does not build conventional subs, not even for export, but sells all kinds of systems for those.

The spanish Isaac Peral (S-81) maybe a bit too big (again don't know what Canada needs or prefers), but not yet established in a way all problems have been sorted out. The bioethanol fuel cell AIP is quite a good idea though, and maybe less prone to problems or accidents.

I take it the Kilo is beyond question just out of national preferences, though it is quite good and established, and could be fitted with any AIP system.

My guess would be the swedish or the german one then.
If Canada decides to go for nuclear propulsion (and some say it will), this will be an entirely different question..

[Kapitan]

Looking at it objectively and whats available on the market, the reality is by the time the Canadians choose we will have moved on a bit tech wise.

I have been on both the Soryu and the Type 212A and both are very good boats, the Soryu has a lot of American equipment inside it, mainly communications, modified sonar suites and fire control systems, where as the German boats naturally have European equipment.

It is one of my bug bears that I cannot extend the articles out more, trust me I really really want to go into substantial detail however any article over about 1,500 words turns the average reader off so its a Limitation I have to deal with.
on the whole I think I could have probably made an article here of 8,10,000 words but then it becomes an essay and like I said no average reader will want to read it.

I have to admit I didnt think to add in the S80 or the Scorpene, on the whole I do think in terms of the S-80 they would be too expensive anyway.
the Scorpene certainly has promise and is a proven design that cheap and capable so yeah I defiantly could see that become part of the running maybe.

The UK sells a lot of hardware but your right it doesn't sell submarines any more which is a bit of a shame seeing as we could build a new export market for them, we have had past successful designs and with the technology the UK has we certainly could build a platform able to compete.

As for Canada going nuclear, I can honestly say there is no apatite here for it, in either the current liberal or conservative government, heck they are still quibbling over the type 26 cost.

[Skybird]

For whatever its worth I expect to see them smigning deal with Sweden or Germany. As was said, Japan is very hesitent to license building of it sm ilitary equipment outside Japan, and it is expensive. The German and Swedish designs are proven and still amongst the most silent of boats in operation.



I could also imagine that Israel serves as an example of how to adapt the German boats with their European equipment to Israel's own and American-cannibalised tech demands.



Plenty of the Canadian coastline is such that you do not want to operate too big boats there, I assume. But thats maybe just the layman in me.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt even the Canadians are settled on what they want but will no doubt set out a list of desirable features.

Then the bidding war begins and could be years away.

[Kapitan]

I doubt even the Canadians are settled on what they want but will no doubt set out a list of desirable features.

Then the bidding war begins and could be years away.

Well the word on the street here is they have to decide by 2030 so another 8 and half years probably before we find out for sure.

[MGR1]

Unless the government of the day decides to either kick the can down the road or scrap the capability altogether. Canada wouldn't be the first Western country to give up on having a submarine service altogether.:hmmm:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Well the word on the street here is they have to decide by 2030 so another 8 and half years probably before we find out for sure.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-navy-begins-push-to-replace-canadas-submarine-fleet/

[Kapitan]

Cant read it unfortunately hidden behind payware wall

[Jimbuna]

HMM not a my end :hmmm:

[Kapitan]

might be because your in the UK and im in Canada

theres quite a few sites i cant use because they are blocked for some reason

[mapuc]

I could read it too. Did not dare to copy the entire article, you know copyrights

it's also this one

https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/vimy-paper-23.pdf

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