Plane hijacking...

[Skybird]

... and getting away with it.



https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article231325263/Ryanair-wagt-keine-Kritik-an-Zwangs-Flugumleitung-nach-Minsk.html


Well...

[MaDef]

The plane was within Belarus' airspace and falls under the authority of that nation. As far as I'm aware, every other sovereign nation on the planet reserves the same "right" to police it's own airspace. So barring an agreement or treaty to the contrary, this incident was not a hijacking.

[Skybird]

Defending a crime by juristical hair splitting. Great.

Its the intention that defines the crime. The intent was neither just nor legal. The intention was state terrorism against the opposition.

Watch out whom you side with. Lukashenko is no legally voted-for democrat, but a brutal tyrant and criminal who played and plays foul and violates basic human rights.

And there was no bomb threat, as was claimed to the Ryanair pilot. If the Belarus cause was legal and right, why then lying to the pilot instead of just insisting on legal rights you claim they had?

[Skybird]

I also remind of reports that secret service agents apparently were aboard the plane since it started, severla of them. The boss of Ryanair also stated that several "KGB agents" :) were aboard.

Also, that today we got reports that at least one Lufthansa plane also was not allowed to take off at Minsk during and after the enforced landing of Ryanair. The plane was searched.

The claimed threat by Hamas, simply is completely unbelievable. I take it as a lie behind which the regime now tries to hide. I mean its the sam regime that claims that protest against the stealing of the elections is civil unrest and illegal.



If we are about laws and what a regime claims is "legal", lets not forget that most of what the Third Reich committed in crimes and terror acts - was in conformity with german laws. Laws can be made for and used for making crimes by the state "legal". We see that in many regimes of the past and present. Some laws form the Third Reich era and some parts of the german legal tradition root in that dark past and even are still valid until today. The German federal state of Hesse still has the death penalty. ;) Not even most Germans know this.



Lets not fall for these cheap tricks of the Lukashenko regime. They played foul once again, and we all know it.

[Skybird]

It seems that Russia was involved, too. As some commentators in Germany point out, NATO officials should really be worried about what this hijacking means for the credibility of NATO's deterrance in the eyes of its foes. There were citizens from many NATO countries aboard. Do we care for protecting our citizens, or do we let them off by being too scared to play tough and protecting them?

I think diplomatic relations should be cancelled with Belarus, and the borders closed indefinetly, and all mutual landing rights and overflight agreements should be cancelled as well. An iron curtain. I m ean we also maintian no diplomatic relations with the Mafia or Camorra, and sign no treaties with them and give them no legal recognition, right? Wetsenr business peope, thinkling they miust want to do business with Belarus, shoud, be put under sanctiosnb,a nd toruists should be ifnormed they trrale their at their ver yown risk and can epxect no support whatever if they think they must do private travels by illegal means there.

Honestly said I more and mroe think we shoudk act the same way with Russia, and of cours echina. Stop dealing with them, in all regards.

The german foreign diplomatic course dominating in the EU, "Wandel durch Handel" (Change by trade) has collapsed completely in past months and years. In every single case where the Germans tried it. It failedl failed, failed every single time. Not one evil regime ever changed for the better due to German money making - and money giving - policies (or American pendant policies, or any other economic trade brings change policies by anyone). It never worked, it never worked, it never worked. It only makes the bad boys badder, more daring, and stronger. Russia. China. Iran being the best examples. Also, the Palestinain arabs, Hamas, Hezbollah.

The West has to give up a good amount of its pacifistic illusions that only illustrate one thing: Western reality denial and stupidity.

[mapuc]

There's only one thing I'm wondering about

The response-What kind of weak response can we expect EU and/or NATO will come up with ?

Markus

[MaDef]

I'm not siding with either side in this, as far as I can tell this is an internal matter between the Belarus government and a Belarus citizen. If and when Belarus starts diverting flights and taking foreign nationals into custody, then we can revisit the issue.

[Skybird]

"An internal matter between the Belarus government and a Belarus citizen."


:o


:down:


:nope:


The relation is that between criminal scumbags and murderous gangsters, and their victims they think of as their property.

[Skybird]

There's only one thing I'm wondering about

The response-What kind of weak response can we expect EU and/or NATO will come up with ?

Markus
Indeed. Next time the Russians - and Belarus is Russia, without Russian patronage and support Belarus and Lukashenko would be nothing - maybe decide to intercept a plane over the Baltic and in international airspace, they have air superiority over much of it both in fighters and missiles. What will the Europeans and NATO then do? The Russians can assassinate people in London and in Berlin Tiergarten in daylight and in public, and nothing serious happens. They can run a stunt like this one in Minsk, and the EU only considers symbolic acts as TV news just said over here: more listings (banning regime figures from travelling to the EU and fr4eezing their bank accounts - as if they would still hold their money within European reach. Its not just germany protecting Russia from serious, hurting consequences, France is busy doing so as well in their obsession to confront the Yanks and limit their influence in Europe that France plans to be Francophile.


Loud words simply do not scare away thnew bad guys - Europeans want to be taken as stroing buddies wiohtout being striong buddies. Thats like a weight lifter wanting to be strong without training his muscles and having an according diet.


Maulheldentum.

[Catfish]

The plane was within Belarus' airspace and falls under the authority of that nation. [...] .
It does not matter in which airspace a civilian aircraft is, even if it has landed on a foreign ariport, every square inch of the plane belongs to the nation this aircraft is registered in, every person aboard cannot just be removed from foreign territory, as the plane represents this very foreign territory it is registered in.

Since Putin recently has killed some critics and defectors abroad it seems certain states do not respect international law anymore and should be treated accordingly.

[Skybird]

BTW, germany lets the Turkish secret olcie hunt Erdoghan critics in Germany, too, and doe snothign about it. Laschet-the-talking-bear even recnetly made Erdoghan's nationapistic figfth column in germany, the DITIB, the "partner" for his wanted relaunch of German-Islamic school curriculae consultations, although the office fvor the protection of the constitution BVS rates DITIB as hostile to the constitutional order.

German policy on Russia:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/strau%C3%9F-kopf-der-sand-sprichwort-zeichentrickfilm-figur-102826948.jpg


German policy on Turkey:

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/strau%C3%9F-kopf-der-sand-sprichwort-zeichentrickfilm-figur-102826948.jpg


German policy on China:

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/strau%C3%9F-kopf-der-sand-sprichwort-zeichentrickfilm-figur-102826948.jpg


German policy on Iran:

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/strau%C3%9F-kopf-der-sand-sprichwort-zeichentrickfilm-figur-102826948.jpg


German policy on Palestinian Arabs:

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/strau%C3%9F-kopf-der-sand-sprichwort-zeichentrickfilm-figur-102826948.jpg

[Jimbuna]

There's only one thing I'm wondering about

The response-What kind of weak response can we expect EU and/or NATO will come up with ?

Markus

France says flights by Belarusian carrier Belavia could be banned from EU airspace. WOW! :o

Sanctions are a popular tool in diplomacy. They sound tough, often cost little and, by and large, don’t involve loss of life.

But will the measures being discussed in Brussels this evening make a difference?

Belarus is already subject to a range of UK and EU sanctions, including travel bans and asset freezes.

The obvious first option is to harden those sanctions and widen their impact. But EU politicians have already said an act of external aggression like this requires more.

So that will probably involve some kind of EU-wide ban on Belarus’s national carrier and a declaration the country’s airspace is unsafe.

The big question is whether the EU will go even further and impose sanctions on big state-owned companies and key sectors of the Belarus economy, such as oil or potash. Some countries may not want to go that far.

Some may be reluctant to see the people of Belarus suffer for the sins of their leaders. Others will fear that deepening the country’s isolation will only push it further into the warm embrace of Russia. So sanctions might sometimes sound like an easy option. But not always.

Typical response I suspect.

[Catfish]

https://www.rt.com/russia/524614-belarus-jet-landing-reaction/

Russia Today :har:

[Jimbuna]

^ Yes, I think many of us could write that in advance of it being published :)

Russia calls Western reaction "shocking" and "hypocritical"

[MaDef]

It does not matter in which airspace a civilian aircraft is, even if it has landed on a foreign ariport, every square inch of the plane belongs to the nation this aircraft is registered in, every person aboard cannot just be removed from foreign territory, as the plane represents this very foreign territory it is registered in.

Since Putin recently has killed some critics and defectors abroad it seems certain states do not respect international law anymore and should be treated accordingly.

This is not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

[Platapus]

If you read Aeronautical Information Publication Enr 1.12, it describes our authority to intercept almost all aircraft (diplomatic is one exception) and force it to land for inspection at any time the aircraft is within our Air Defense Identification Zone.

[mapuc]

^ This made me wonder

How far up does a countries sovereignty go ?

On sea it's around 12 nm but up how far ? Even 12 nm here ?

Edit made a search and found this

How high up is a country's airspace?
12 nautical miles
Under International law, a country's airspace is considered to be 12 nautical miles out from the coastline of the nation. However, there is no international agreement on how far a country's airspace extends vertically towards outer space.

End edit

Markus

[Skybird]

If you read Aeronautical Information Publication Enr 1.12, it describes our authority to intercept almost all aircraft (diplomatic is one exception) and force it to land for inspection at any time the aircraft is within our Air Defense Identification Zone.

It does not matter, the "suspect" is neither a criminal nor a terrorist or anything like that. The terorrist and crimninal is Lukashenko (and Putin).

And this, post #1:
"Around 2013, when a business jet by Bolivia's President Evo Morales was forced to land in Vienna on its way from Russia to Bolivia because ex-US secret service agent Edward Snowden was suspected to be on board and France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to fly over."

If that was no breach of the diplomatic immunity you pointed at, then I apparently do not understand what the term means.

[MaDef]

It does not matter, the "suspect" is neither a criminal nor a terrorist or anything like that. The terorrist and crimninal is Lukashenko (and Putin). How do you know that? You kids on that continent have some funny ideas sometimes about free speech and personal freedoms. He may have run afoul of some Belarusian law.

[Buddahaid]

I'm sure if he hasn't he will be found in violation of one anyway. It stinks, but hello, the world and people have a vast capability to suck regularly.

[Skybird]

FOCUS Online writes:


The case of Roman Protassevich, who is kidnapped by the Belarusian authorities on an intra-European flight, once again reveals the reluctance and powerlessness of the EU in its foreign policy. The naivety of Brussels must come to an end. -

The American geostrategist Robert Kagan, once started as a neoconservative in the service of Secretary of State George P. Shultz, later advised the presidential candidate John McCain, only to leave the Republican Party screaming in the Trump vs. Clinton election campaign and to join the realpolitician Hillary Clinton. He is one of the great independent thinkers in the USA. In his standard work "Power and Powerlessness" Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order, Skybird] it says: -

“We should no longer pretend that Europeans and Americans share the same worldview, or that they even live in the same world. On the all-important question of power - the question of effectiveness, ethics, and the desirability of power - American and European views diverge. (...) Europe turns away from power. It enters a post-historical paradise of peace and relative prosperity that equates to the realization of Kant's, Eternal Peace ‛. (...) In contrast, the United States remains stuck in history and wields power in an anarchic world in which international regulations and international law cannot be relied on and in which true security still depends on the possession and use of military power. "-

The Americans came from Mars and the Europeans from Venus, he summarizes his analysis. -

Little has changed in this finding. After Trump, America has returned to a rule-based but nonetheless militarily defensive foreign policy. Europe has remained the procrastinator who looks with the eyes of love at a world that unfortunately eludes his harmonious longings: -

A war is raging on the eastern border of Ukraine, which the Russian leadership, in accordance with its strategic goals, is sometimes boiling down and then boiling up again. Europe begs Putin for peace. -

Turkey has left the route to Europe that has been offered to it and is using the refugees from the slums of the world as hostages to extort more and more payments. Europe grimaces, but pays. -

On August 23, 2019, Putin had the Berlin zoo murdered and the opposition Alexei Navalny imprisoned and harassed at home. Europe hands over its dispatches.

The Islamist terrorist organization Hamas, which is supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia among others, has launched a military offensive against Israel. Germany cannot even get a grip on anti-Semitism on its own streets, where the hostility to Jews from home and from immigrants embraces each other. -

Belarusian President Lukashenko is not afraid of forcing a Ryanair plane from its interceptors in Minsk and arresting the journalist and blogger Roman Protassevich in front of the world. Europe is threatened - but with what? -

This has been going on for decades. Europe is permanently appalled, routinely disapproves of the use of force and assures the attacked Israelis and the imprisoned Belarusian journalist of specifically European solidarity - that is, guaranteed without consequences. -

This Europe is the stadium announcer who counts the goals of the tournament participants without even entering the field. This Europe is the angel of peace who has no wings and therefore cannot fly. In its deliberate naivety, this Europe will ultimately protect no one - not even itself. Mars and Venus are 120 million kilometers apart in the planetary system and light years apart in political orbit. It would be worth talking about in the election year too. -

[Jimbuna]

Several European airlines have said that they will not fly over Belarus, days after a dissident journalist was arrested on a flight diverted to Minsk.

Air France is the latest major carrier to ban overflights. Neighbouring Ukraine and Poland are stopping all flights to and from Belarus.

Western countries accuse Belarus of hijacking the Ryanair plane carrying journalist Roman Protasevich on Sunday.

The Greece-Lithuania flight was rerouted over a supposed bomb threat.

Belarus authorities on Monday released video of Mr Protasevich that appears to have been recorded under duress since his arrest.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239162

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJL5rE0k79Y

[les green01]

sounds like you boys over there got yourself a little problem again so i'm going watch how y'all handle this but i know,mother Russia will flex her arms and y'all be on your knee's or you be screaming for the ole red,white and blue only country i see with the manhood is UK and i'm not sure what state UK military wise is and biden don't get me started on him best thing i can say about him he couldn't get himself out of a wet paper bag and he could mess up a special kind of dream

[Jimbuna]

Nothing to do with the UK as far as I'm concerned. Best if left to the EU to 'deal' with it.

[Moonlight]

Lets see how the mighty EU deal with a tyrant. :haha:

[Catfish]

Nothing to do with the UK as far as I'm concerned. Best if left to the EU to 'deal' with it.
"UK acts now!". "That is why we left!"
How is the "UK"'s answer different or more effective than what all else in Europe do? :hmmm:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1440868/gb-news-belarus-ryanair-flight-diversion-response-UK-EU-darren-mccaffery

The Express, humble as always :D

[Skybird]

An Air France flight from Paris to Moscow wanted to avoid Belarussian airspace, and was rejected by Russia for an alternative route into and through Russian airspace to Moscow. It had to break off.

Maybe its a good idea to cancel all flight movements from and to Russia, too?

Oh, and have a closer look at Kaliningrad. Not only is it a Russian sensor and missile thorn driven deep in NATO's Eastern front area, but its also a vulnerability for the Russians, exposed and land-isolated as it is.

Oh, wait, I forgot. It would need military capability and cojohnes to do that. Okay. Send a protest note then, and then let grass grow over it all.

[Catfish]

^ Also avoid Austria then:
https://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane/index.html
:O:

I wonder what this meeting between Biden and Putin will accomplish.

[Skybird]

^Got mentioned in the linked story in post 1 already. They also reminded of an incident 50 years ago when two Libyans fighterjets enforced the landing of a British plane at Tripolis to get two Sudanese revolutionists off the plane.

[Skybird]

Russia has just banned/thrown out three German political-cultural NGOs.


Ein Schelm wer Böses dabei denkt...

[Skybird]

A flight by AustrianAirliners enroute for Vienna to Moscow suffered the same fate as Air Fracne yesterday. The Austrian plane wanted to avoid Belarussian airspace and was rejected by Russia for entering Russian airspace, so had to abort.

Both incidents are another Russian provoication by which the Russians want to wenfiorce European compliance. And both incidents so far do not get commented by the EU, adding to the impression that the EU once again is unprepared, as so often, to confront harsh realities it planned to just dream them away.

[Jimbuna]

^ Can't say I'm surprised.

[Jimbuna]

Russia's foreign ministry has condemned the EU's call for Europe-based airlines to avoid Belarusian airspace, calling it completely irresponsible.

Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova, commenting after Russia had denied entry to two airlines that planned to avoid Belarus, said passenger safety was at risk.

EU leaders had acted after Belarus forced a Ryanair plane to divert and land in the capital, Minsk.

A Belarusian dissident journalist and his girlfriend were then arrested.

Roman Protasevich and Sofia Sapega are both in jail. A court on Friday rejected Ms Sapega's appeal against her two-month detention.

The EU's 27 leaders met this week and demanded their immediate release, as has the G7 group of nations.

The UN's civil aviation agency has said it will launch a "fact-finding" investigation into Belarus's actions, and whether there had been any breach of international aviation law.

No reason was given for Moscow's decision to refuse access to flights from Air France and Austrian Airlines, but an Air France spokesperson linked Russia requiring "new authorisation" to the airline bypassing Belarus airspace.

On Friday, Russia's aviation authority allowed entry to several European airlines bypassing Belarus, including Austrian Airlines, although Air France did cancel another Paris-Moscow flight.

Russia's federal aviation agency warned that airlines that changed routes might have to await longer clearance times.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57279482

[Rockstar]

Some sources think this poor innocent journalist isnt so innocent afterall.

Possibly just another useful idiot. If the articles are true why risk the embarassment by supporting this clown? Sure Lukashenko is no saint but then neither are these alleged murderous psychopaths we seem to be supporting.

Roman Protasevich

By Anonymous
on August 17, 2020 - Last updated: May 25, 2021

Roman Protasevich is one of the key regime change operatives in the Belarusian color revolution of 2020. His name appeared in the context of a Telegram channel called Nexta that overnight was made the voice of the Belarusian opposition.

To clarify: FOIA Research does not endorse intercepting airplanes in mid-air, unless there is an acute danger emanating from the person or cargo in question, something which seems difficult to assess in this case. However, this does not change the fact that Protasevich is a neo-Nazi-affine Western-backed regime change activist. Nor that the EU is clearly applying double-standards in this case, if one just recalls the incident of Bolivia's president Evo Morales being forced to land in Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident), on the phoney grounds that he seemed inclined to grant asylum to Edward Snowden.

https://www.foiaresearch.net/person/roman-protasevich


‐‐--------------------------

Recently detained Belarussian neo-Nazi “journalist” Protasevich served in Canadian backed neo-Nazi Azov Battalion

https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/recently-detained-belarussian-neo-nazi-journalist-pratasevich-served-in-canadian-backed-neo-nazi-azov-battalion

[Moonlight]

Roman Protasevich
By Anonymous
on August 17, 2020 - Last updated: May 25, 2021
Roman Protasevich is one of the key regime change operatives in the Belarusian color revolution of 2020. His name appeared in the context of a Telegram channel called Nexta that overnight was made the voice of the Belarusian opposition.

To clarify: FOIA Research does not endorse intercepting airplanes in mid-air, unless there is an acute danger emanating from the person or cargo in question, something which seems difficult to assess in this case. However, this does not change the fact that Protasevich is a neo-Nazi-affine Western-backed regime change activist. Nor that the EU is clearly applying double-standards in this case, if one just recalls the incident of Bolivia's president Evo Morales being forced to land in Austria, on the phoney grounds that he seemed inclined to grant asylum to Edward Snowden.

That quote doesn't instil much confidence as to the truth of these allegations does it Rockstar, anonymous and allegations must never be used in the same sentence because it's most certainly a bare faced lie made up by this Lukashenko regime.
Why doesn't the accuser come from behind the shield of invisibility they're hiding behind and face the world press and lets see them squirm under the scrutiny of the world media, it's not as if they're under any threat from President Lukashenko is it.
Me thinks this anonymous person is actually a spokesperson from inside one of President Lukashenko's internal security departments and these allegations should be flushed down the toilet where they belong. :o

[mapuc]

In a couple of month from now-airtraffic will resume to its normal over and around Belarus.

EU needed to show some kind of strength in front of its citizens.
(how high percentage who believed it I can't say)

Markus

[Skybird]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Protasevich#cite_note-:0-4


Section "Career - Azov Batallion Allegations"

[Catfish]

I am sure he wanted to join Navalny in his fascist efforts to found a new fourth Reich and destroy the beautiful democracy of Putin, or Lukashenko.

[Skybird]

Nawalny is a populist in the meaning of "opportunist". He has been right, he has been left, he changed colours like a chameleon, he poses with that political orientation that at a givne time wins him sympathies, support, votes.

[Rockstar]

No matter how ya look at it, Putin Lushenko, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, all of it, is just one big hot mess.

Just wanted to point out that there are other sources of information which exist. Sometimes I get the feeling we're all being treated like mushrooms being fed crap and kept in the dark as to what's really going on, its insulting. Im all for my government I really like my country. I just wish we could find someone to support besides alledged neo-nazis. If he's not then would expect a strong response in defense of him. But so far I see nothing.

From wikipedia:

Azov Battalion founder Andriy Biletsky (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Biletsky_(politician)) wrote that Protasevich “actually fought with the Azov Battalion and other units against the occupation of Ukraine, but as a journalist his weapon was not the machine gun, but the word,”

That's the weirdest looking pencil hanging around his neck I've ever seen. Maybe it was shopped in?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ddedc989ab6b86728e310e4/1621960661657-0XCJWCXYR806FMDX8MAC/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEPeJzmCLdGJkcD4aG2reOZZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWEtT5uBSRWt4vQZAgTJucoTqqXjS3CfND Suuf31e0tVGmfVMW32iIu2yDtPZesL0qnpcJiYhT0GcUUcUAXb JT9zqWIIaSPh2v08GbKqpiV54/Azov+mag.png?format=750w

[Moonlight]

From that wiki article posted by Skybird.

Arrest of Sofia Sapega
In a 26 May 2021 speech in Belarusian parliament President Alexander Lukashenko labelled Protasevich and Sapega "agents of Western intelligence"

Azov Battalion allegations
According to Euroradio.fm, information about his alleged non-journalist connections with Azov started to spread only after his arrest

The Lukashenko regime strikes again, it's always a good one that you know, accuse them of being "agents of Western intelligence" have they borrowed such bollocks from Putin's regime or from China's. :O:

[mapuc]

In situations like this where allegations is flying all over, it's important to NOT believe anything of it. If you want to believe then be very critical in what you hear and read.

I have decided not to believe anything. What I believe is that this civilian airplane was forced down by Belarus air force and one of the passanger was arrested.

Markus

[MaDef]

So was this plane hijacked or not?

[Skybird]

So was this plane hijacked or not?
Agents were aboard in numbers.
Captain was told on radio to divert to Minsk.

He didnt.

They then came with tbe lie of Hamas threatening to bomb it.

In such cases captains need to get down fast at the closest airport available, which was Vilnius, Minsk was twice as far away.

Belarus fighter escort Enforced divertion to Minsk nevertheless.

At Minsk the man was pulled out, so was his girlfriend.

A Lufthansa plane was not allowed to leave Minsk, the only plane at that time ready to start.

Of course that all qualifies as a hijack.

[Jimbuna]

Itwould be pretty hard to argue against the above.

[MaDef]

I think you guys are misconstruing my question. If Belarus has sovereign authority within it's airspace, and to govern it's citizens, what specific law or treaty was broken that elevates this incident to a hijacking.

Did Belarus actually break a law, or is calling this incident a hijacking due to people not liking the heavy handed way Belarus exercised it's authority?

[Skybird]

Where is the claimed Hamas bomb? Why does nobody know anything about such a claimed Hamas threat? Why are the intel services in the world silent about it? Why the divertion to Minsk instead to Vilnius that was just half the distance?

The many crimes committed in various dictatorships in history and throughout the world. Random toprture and random murder. Sielcnign critics in secret prisons. Gagging media. Shooting people trying to flee from the regime, shooting people calling the crime at the state top by its name . These acts of state terror do not become defendable and legal and morally fine just because they were committed on the grounds of regime-written laws. Do you think they are acceptable and excusable because they were covered by regime-made self-given "laws"? The execution of Sophie Scholl, as mentioned in another thread recently, was according to the the German laws, so was the plundering of Jews and deportation into camps. The StaSi acted within the laws, so were the shooters at the inner-German border when they killed a traitor of the republic who tried to flee from the GDR. Al that was "legal" and on the groudns of laws.

Obviously laws can be made to turn crime into civil duties, barbary into a servie to the claimed common good, and violation of moral ideals the standard by which to judge obedience to the laws.

The list of examples showing why your question focus is misled and wrong, is endless. Your question does not matter. It is a distraction, and you know it. The intetion of the regime is what decides this. And the intention never was international air traffic security, it was to get a wanted regime critic angrying Lukashenko into custody to silence him off.

And btw, as a side-effect of far-reaching consequences you imply that justice and moral legitimation is just a mere formality decided by ink on paper. That may apply to the written formula, but the formula is not the essence of justice and moralöity, but imprefect and incomplete as it necessarily always must be, it can only hope, if well-designed - to get close to these ideals - or, if being abused for malice and corruption, it is meant form beginning non to hide malice itself, and defend it, and make it appear as the defender of the good and justice.


At the core it is about moral principles, and an ideal of justice. Sometimes weclaim some of thes eidelass to be so generla and univeraal that we clal them human rights, to underline their basic and penultimate relevance. And you cannot corrupt that so easily as with just writing an opportunistic rule.


Paragraphsd are just placeholders for a higher value - or an alibi to hide the absence of the latter. I dont know how it is with you, but my decision whether I am loyal to a law never is because of the letter of the law, but the intention behind the law. The worst of crimes and the most malicious of barbary have often been committed on the grounds of obeying laws or obeying commands.



Nuremburg trials, anyone? That had somehtign to say on this.

[Rockstar]

The day of dictatorships in europe should have ended years ago and I can get behind any movement or governments that seeks to rid this world of them.

My main problem is why so many just hop right on the bandwagon of supporting and or replacing these dictators with the likes of that racist uneducated dumbass Navalny or the gun toting journalist plastered on the front cover of a neo nazi magazine. We can do better don't ya think?

Is there anyone out there worthy of my support that doesn't have such extremist skeletons hidden in their closet? Why dont we hear more of that Nobel Laureate Svetlana Tikhanovskaya or other seemingly more reasonable people that are opposing Lukashenko?

[MaDef]

And the intention never was international air traffic security, it was to get a wanted regime critic angrying Lukashenko into custody to silence him off.
So this incident was a "criminal" apprehension rather than an actual Hijacking.

[Sean C]

Itwould be pretty hard to argue against the above.


Government officials are experts at arguing against what seem to be clear facts. Mind you, I'm not saying their arguments are the least bit convincing.

[Skybird]

And again.


https://www.dw.com/en/kremlin-clampdown-on-open-russia-and-opposition-continues/a-57750245


Meanwhile the German ambassador travels around in Russia an gives smiles.

[Jimbuna]

Russia and Belarus are similar due to the fact they are both ruled by democratically elected dictators.

[Skybird]

Plural...? It was always Putin's calculation to bring Belarus back home into the Sovjet Reich. The total, helpless dependency of Lukashenko is expression of this formula working well.

[Jimbuna]

Good to see Germany eventually growing a pair.

Aircraft of Russian airlines that have taken off in Russia are not allowed to land in Germany. The reason is an incident with Lufthansa flights, which were unable to land in Russia because the Russian permission took too long.

Flights from Germany, France and Austria could not fly to Moscow or Saint Petersburg in recent days, because Russia did not give permission. According to Russia, this is because there is a technical problem, but the problems arose shortly after the decision of European countries to no longer fly over Belarus. The Kremlin supports the Belarusian government.
https://www.msn.com/nl-nl/nieuws/buitenland/duitsland-stopt-met-toelaten-vluchten-uit-rusland-na-incident-lufthansa/ar-AAKDOVu?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBoPEwG

[Rockstar]

Good to see Germany eventually growing a pair.

Meh, they'll grumble, make a few speeches, and as always blame their woes on some far right boogieman :roll:. But the rhetoric ends when winter sets and they need Putin to heat their homes.

Tsikhanouskaya has spent months crisscrossing Europe to muster support for her movement. She is often greeted with the reverence reserved for a head of state or a heroic conscience of the nation and, I suspect, was understandably frustrated by the lack of follow-through to the grandiose promises of support made to the opposition by European politicians. But with the act of air piracy shocking the world, the new situation offers a tremendous opportunity to reenergize both the opposition and the willingness of Europeans to offer support.
“Europe did a great deal in the beginning and offered a great deal of moral support, and afterward, the question is how far and how quickly they could go in implementing aggressive actions against the regime,” she said. “Since December [2020], that is for six months, we have had no new concrete actions on sanctions or movement on more civil society assistance. We call on the European Union to be braver.”

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/01/lukashenko-air-piracy-belarus-opposition-roman-protasevich/

[Skybird]

No, you read too much into it. The delay of flight permissions given by the Russians stems from time table distortions due to Corona. And to avoid distoritng and compressing tiem tables even more, German auhtorities also stopped their flight permissions. At least thats the narrative given by German regime media yesterday evening, ZDF Heute, the daily main news program beside ARD Tagesschau.


The only noteworthy detail here is that this relatively minor story catches so much speculative attention and interpretation. It shows how tense relations between Russia and Germany are.