Puma IFV finally ready for action

[Skybird]

Well.
I have no argument, but I don't trust that thing. Too much electronics. To me, electroncis have "vulnerability" written in bold letters all over them.

I also have only reduced trust in gun barrels mounted on crooks. That contruction was added later after they found out that the original construction had a terribly high stray firing rate and lacked any precision - the rounds landed all over the place.


https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/f-a-z-exklusiv-schuetzenpanzer-puma-endlich-einsatztauglich-17251869.html?printPagedArticle%3Dtrue%23pageIndex _3

[Rockstar]

I've watched a video about the Puma on Youtube. Pretty awesome piece of armor to have on the field. In one section the narrator stated the Puma had an automatic transmission with six gears forward and six gears in reverse. That made me think about the movie 'Kelly's Heroes' when the character Oddball said: "These engines are the fastest in any tanks in the European Theater of Operations, forwards or backwards. You see, man, we like to feel we can get out of trouble, quicker than we got into it"

[Skybird]

The main weapon is a 30mm, but the seconardy coax is just a 5.56 - the desiogners overlooked that thwe turret woukld need more place to install a real medium callibre machine gun. The 5.56 lacks punch and penetration, and range and precision.

Its heavy, heavier than projcted, so that now one third more of air transports are needed to airlift three Pumas in A400Ms ij battle grade protection C.

If the A400Ms will ever be available in sufficient numbers, that is.

The hull around the barrel of the main gun indeed is for

stabilising the gun, nobody should be mistaken there. The German term is "Rohrabstützung". My term is "gun barrel on crooks".

Only 6-man squads for loading.

At least they had the brains to add missiles as an option to it. Spike-LR against armour and helicopters.

Too expensive. And for the time being: necessarily unproven and untested.

Severla other natiosn that were hoped to become customers of the Puma, decided agaunst it and instead went for models of the swedish CV-90 lineage, which would have been my choice, too. I do not think the Puma will become an economic success story. It is too damn expensive, and it will stay that due to low production numbers.

[Jimbuna]

The namesake of my favourite armoured car in WWII

[Jeff-Groves]

What is the fascination with Germans naming tanks after Big Cats?
Seeing as this one is lacking in ways?
Shall we see a Hello Kitty Tank at some point?

[Rockstar]

The main weapon is a 30mm, but the seconardy coax is just a 5.56 - the desiogners overlooked that thwe turret woukld need more place to install a real medium callibre machine gun. The 5.56 lacks punch and penetration, and range and precision.

Its heavy, heavier than projcted, so that now one third more of air transports are needed to airlift three Pumas in A400Ms ij battle grade protection C.

If the A400Ms will ever be available in sufficient numbers, that is.

The hull around the barrel of the main gun indeed is for

stabilising the gun, nobody should be mistaken there. The German term is "Rohrabstützung". My term is "gun barrel on crooks".

Only 6-man squads for loading.

At least they had the brains to add missiles as an option to it. Spike-LR against armour and helicopters.

Too expensive. And for the time being: necessarily unproven and untested.

Severla other natiosn that were hoped to become customers of the Puma, decided agaunst it and instead went for models of the swedish CV-90 lineage, which would have been my choice, too. I do not think the Puma will become an economic success story. It is too damn expensive, and it will stay that due to low production numbers.


Well looking on the bright side, I've read the 5.56 will upgraded to the 7.62 Heckler & Koch MG5. That's definitely a step in the right direction.

What is a squad size in the German Army? I know in the U.S. Army it can vary greatly, six men is about in the middle of possibilities. As for passengers that's going to be determined by its intended role in the grand scheme of things, if there is a grand scheme. ;)

Also the fat lady hasn't started singing yet. I've read the U.S. has been kicking around the idea of replacing Bradley and had been looking at the Puma for some ideas.

[Skybird]

German squads were 7 with the very first Marder IFVs, later versions had only room for 6, and so squad sizes got reduced.


But I think 6 is very small and does not allow much room for losses. Its the kind of surgical super-precise clean tabletop ground warfare fighting - that I do not expect happening in a close quarter combat against equal enemies.

There is always the inherent expectation (that I do not share) that own losses will not be suffered. And when you are low on numbers from start on and then suffer losses, you are - well, no longer in your plan's comfort zone.

I want reserves. 6 man squads have none.


The way the Combat Mission Shock Force game depicts US Marine Corps units with much larger infantry groups, depict somehow how it should be. You also get much greater tactical flexibility.

[Skybird]

Well looking on the bright side, I've read the 5.56 will upgraded to the 7.62 Heckler & Koch MG5. That's definitely a step in the right direction.

I believe it when I see it. The current turret is too small, it needs to be completely replaced then. And that costs. The 7.62mm was planned form beginning on, but at a late stage of their project they found out that they had made a mistake and that the turret has not the space to mount a 7.62. Thats why the Puma has just the light MG - its smaller and fits in. A 7.62 does not.



With the incoming next government - national elections in autumn - I cannot see a great enthzusiasm for boosting defence spendings. Clkaism and promises that remain unfulfilled so far will be extended by new claims and promises that also will stay unfulfilled. I expect a massive slide to the left. Merkel has completely consumed the CDU and there is not even a minimum reserve of personnel left. This erosion now costs them dearly. German people are sick and tired of it. Even Merkel is no longer everybody's darling since the Corona failure - and that fall equals an earthslide.


P.S. I just googled it up. Indeed it is planned that only completely new build Pumas get the 7.62 - IF an according deciison is beign made, and that deciison weas - before Coriona - not expected before the end of 2022. So it is not certain at all, since the new Pumas will cost more money, and they already are very expensive. They will have new turrets. The new Pumas may be ordered due to Germany wanting to take the lead of NATO's VJTF task force without needing to cannibalise other BW units to equip that task force as currently is common practice.

[Skybird]

BTW, there is another German contender, the Lynx IFV. And different to the Puma, there is international interest and demand. Even from the US.


The looks of it. Wowh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM1hj9iSN3Y

[Skybird]

What is the fascination with Germans naming tanks after Big Cats?
Seeing as this one is lacking in ways?
Shall we see a Hello Kitty Tank at some point?
Should we call them Apache, Kiowa, and Cherokee? Or Frisian, Bavarian, Saxon?

[Rockstar]

We used to name our tanks after traitors to the Republic. Like the 'Stuart' and the 'Lee' :D

[Rockstar]

BTW, there is another German contender, the Lynx IFV. And different to the Puma, there is international interest and demand. Even from the US.


The looks of it. Wowh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM1hj9iSN3Y




That Lynx has some pretty sleek modern lines. I think they need to add some attachment points for foliage. It seems German tankers tend to go to great lengths to make their tank look just like a tree.


https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8472/8124205192_f06721d98a_o.jpg

[Rockstar]

The U.S. is looking at the Lynx as a replacement to the Bradley. They call it the 'Optionally Manned Fighting Vehicle'. Does this mean it will be able to operate without a crew?

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/12/18/bradley-replacement-request-for-proposals-hits-street-with-flexibility-for-foreign-participation/

[Catfish]

I guess what they mean is that the crew and some additional soldiers can be transported?

[Moonlight]

Now you've shown us some pretty videos and pictures of it how about showing some videos of this Puma performing against the assets it's going to be facing on a battle front, there aren't any? or don't they want to scratch the paint on it or something?.
How would 2 or 3 of these fare against a battle tank? or even 2 or 3 squads of men armed with grenade launchers, if the answer is "not good" then its a waste of bleeding money innit.
I can imagine the enemy troops saying Ooooh look at that Puma aint it pretty, before letting rip, and I don't mean breaking wind. :O:

[Aktungbby]

Amazing the Germans would name a combat infantry vehicle after an American kitty cat...might be good for NATO arms sales??!!:hmmm: https://static4.depositphotos.com/1004920/372/v/950/depositphotos_3721954-stock-illustration-big-cats.jpgAlthough why they didn't name the multi-syllable longer word 'Catamount' is beyond me!:O: Vermont University teams certainly employ that Catamount V for Victory https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/34/Vermont_Catamounts_logo.svg/150px-Vermont_Catamounts_logo.svg.pngconcept:arrgh! The 'cheeky' version>:https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article18337149.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_V-Sign.jpg

[Rockstar]

Now you've shown us some pretty videos and pictures of it how about showing some videos of this Puma performing against the assets it's going to be facing on a battle front, there aren't any? or don't they want to scratch the paint on it or something?.
How would 2 or 3 of these fare against a battle tank? or even 2 or 3 squads of men armed with grenade launchers, if the answer is "not good" then its a waste of bleeding money innit.
I can imagine the enemy troops saying Ooooh look at that Puma aint it pretty, before letting rip, and I don't mean breaking wind. :O:




If world war 2 taught us anything about armored warfare, it's that speed kills. The Bradly, Lynx, Puma and Armata IFVs and Scout models are fast and supposed to be equipped with the firepower to take out anything it encounters. Especially when combined with air support.

The plus side in all of this is new designs and construction are good for the economy by generating sales abroad and creating jobs at home so we can feed our children. The slogan is "Build a Tank Feed a Child" so do it for the children :up:

[Skybird]

They call it the 'Optionally Manned Fighting Vehicle'. Does this mean it will be able to operate without a crew?
I do not know, but I could imagine that it is remote-controllabe, like an automatted turret already is, so to speak. Could also mean it is kind of modular and could be designed to have a crew of 2 or 3. Or the basic platform has the option to carry a squad compartment - or something else in its place: recce equipment, radios, surveillance stuff, chemical sensors... Compare M2 and M3, maybe.

[Skybird]

Now you've shown us some pretty videos and pictures of it how about showing some videos of this Puma performing against the assets it's going to be facing on a battle front, there aren't any? or don't they want to scratch the paint on it or something?.
How would 2 or 3 of these fare against a battle tank? or even 2 or 3 squads of men armed with grenade launchers, if the answer is "not good" then its a waste of bleeding money innit.
I can imagine the enemy troops saying Ooooh look at that Puma aint it pretty, before letting rip, and I don't mean breaking wind. :O:

Puma is planned to get Spike LR missiles, for a start. Thats a design based on the Israeli Gomed missile. And thats a nasty little bastard reaching out 4 km and verison 2 even 5 km and has severla different semi-automatic and autonomous targetting modes. Warhead can be changed, according to wish and need.

The last German tank that was wondered about whether it could stand the test of reality, was the Leopard-2 version for the Candians in Afghanistan - after they had spend some time with it they did not want to have any other anymore, not even the Abrams. :O:

The Fuchs also is very popular as chemical tracking vehicle, until today.

If the Puma and Lynx work as their predecessors and according to their blueprints, then they are superb. I admit: IF.

One or both of these IFVs should even get autonomous drones. But it is new equipment, so that implies it cannot already have a history. But in the past the Germans showed they know a thing or two about two weapon platforms: diabolically stealthy submarines, and superb tanks. The Leopard-2 is the by far most produced MBT from Western production (but is now getting old). A Leopard-3 is in planning.

Personally I think the Israeli Merkava is the best protected tank in the world, with the Armata being the most innovative and the first tank of the fourth generation. The German, American and British designs, probably also the T-90 for the russian forces, probably all are more or less in the same league - and behind the Merkava and Armata.

[Rockstar]

Found this in a Nov 20 Stars and Stripes article. The Army is moving ahead with proposals for a long-delayed plan to replace the aging M-2 Bradley with an infantry vehicle that can be remotely controlled when soldiers dismount.


...Several contractors have expressed interest in the program. They include Germany’s Rheinmetall, which is offering its Lynx KF41 infantry fighting vehicle; BAE Systems, the Bradley’s manufacturer; and General Dynamics Land Systems.

Seems it's supposed to be operated somehow from outside the vehicle. From how far away and what components it didn't say.

[Skybird]

Ready for the future.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/87/38/8b8738d7b8692156b4a8eff09c480855.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

What is the fascination with Germans naming tanks after Big Cats?
Seeing as this one is lacking in ways?
Shall we see a Hello Kitty Tank at some point?


Oh man, can you imagine filing a battle report:

BRIEF: SURVEYED SMALL TOWN, FEW TROOPS, SMALL ARMS. PROCEEDED TO OCCUPY, HAD FORCE WIPED OUT BY HIDDEN KITTY. IN RETREAT.

[Catfish]

^ :har: