France’s Submarine The New Suffren-Class

[Mr Quatro]

I like this boat ... if I were a small country I would purchase a couple of them :yep:

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/euronaval-2020/2020/10/frances-submarine-game-changer-the-new-suffren-class/?fbclid=IwAR3o4cI--yzEpA_M10ZObqXRjDqqQVexOSGFMkpZG2M_iiYF5aL_PAopbnE #prettyPhoto

https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/France-Navy-Barracuda-Suffren-Cutaway-3.jpg

Six new attack submarines will form the vanguard of the French Navy (Marine Nationale) for the coming decades. Developed as the Barracuda program, the lead boat of the new class, Suffren, is expected to formally join the fleet next year. The new submarines will offer a massive capability leap over the current Rubis-class boats.

Among the improvements, the Suffren-class will be armed with a wider spectrum of weapons. The latest F-21 heavyweight torpedoes will provide the core anti-submarine and anti-ship punch. These electric-powered weapon can use rechargeable lithium-ion batteries for training shots, and one-time aluminum silver oxide batteries for war shots. With a speed of over 50 knots it can reach targets over 27 nautical miles (50 km) away.

The other new weapon carried will be the Naval Cruise Missile (NCM). This is generally equivalent of the Tomahawk land attack cruise missile (LACM). Cruise missiles will provide the Suffren-class with a first-night strategic strike capability. This will reach deep inside enemy territory, a capability few other navies will have.

The weapons load-out can be rounded out with the FG-29 mine and Exocet SM39 anti-ship missile. Both of these are already carried by Marine Nationale submarines.

In the future, torpedo-sized UUVs (uncrewed underwater vehicles) may also be carried. Naval Group’s new D-19 type might be ideally suited. These can carry out a wide range of missions including Intelligence, Surveillance & Reconnaissance (ISR), electronic warfare (EW), anti-submarine warfare (ASW),mine counter-measures (MCM) and mine warfare.

[ikalugin]

To me it seems like a minimalistic SSN, without much exciting things happening in sonar or weapons.

[Gerald]

Just what I previously posted about Australia's plans after Collins' class. https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=247027

[Jimbuna]

An awful lot is packed into what is not a relatively large platform but I hope she meets all that is being claimed of her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYLCwhY6Itg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gddKLswAJ2w

[Gerald]

One disadvantage of this smaller size is that Suffren can carry fewer weapons. With nuclear-powered attack submarines being an apex predator there is a consideration that they may sink so many enemy warships that they run out of torpedoes. This will be particularly true of the Suffren which carries about the same number of weapons as a non-nuclear submarine. Her maximum load of around 24 weapons is about 60% that of the current Virginia and Astute classes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/05/02/the-french-navys-new-suffren-class-attack-submarine/

Not just benefits to the class. But an addition to the Navy and its allies.

[UglyMowgli]

https://www.meretmarine.com/sites/default/files/styles/mem_1000/public/new_objets_drupal/dscn2968.jpg

Test of the combat diver module on the Suffren


https://news.maritime-network.com/2020/12/06/le-sna-suffren-teste-son-module-dds-concu-pour-les-nageurs-de-combat/?fbclid=IwAR3aD5ZVtIOVc9u8Z2NlEHNeeZcVCQdK5dklPY7s Aqv8w7IeZ-zu9xKXHPw

[Mr Quatro]

^ That's going to make some underwater noise for sure :yep:

[Cybermat47]

^ That's going to make some underwater noise for sure :yep:

Yep, if you try to go silent with that thing, you’ll be... Suffren.

[Jimbuna]

Yep, if you try to go silent with that thing, you’ll be... Suffren.

Nice one :)

[Kapitan]

I really don't understand why people say these boats are small ? they are just a touch under 100m long, when you consider that the boats they are replacing the Rubis class which are 76m long its quite a big leap.
The UK Trafalgar class are smaller than the suffren at 86m long and have a pretty good array of capabilities packed in.
On a side note the UK Astute class are only a smidge shorter than the suffren there's about 2m in it.

The only real drawback I actually see with these boats is the lack of ability to engage land targets, they don't carry a land attack missile like the RN or USN thats not to say that this cannot be remedied in the future.

In all honesty I think the Suffren will do just fine and as intended (and this is coming from an English man who doesn't like the French pretty much)

Anyway thats just my 2 cents Im off to gargle some Listerine now i said the above.

[UglyMowgli]

The only real drawback I actually see with these boats is the lack of ability to engage land targets, they don't carry a land attack missile like the RN or USN thats not to say that this cannot be remedied in the future.





They have Naval Cruise Missile (NCM) in the inventory. They tested one from the Suffren in October.



https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/euronaval-2020/2020/10/french-navys-new-ssn-suffren-test-fired-all-of-its-weapons-systems-f21-hwt-sm39-asm-and-naval-cruise-missile/

[Kapitan]

They have Naval Cruise Missile (NCM) in the inventory. They tested one from the Suffren in October.



https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/euronaval-2020/2020/10/french-navys-new-ssn-suffren-test-fired-all-of-its-weapons-systems-f21-hwt-sm39-asm-and-naval-cruise-missile/

Thankyou for the correction i must have missed that i redact my statement on the matter.

[Schiffmorder]

Comes complete with auto deployed white flag upon detection of UK assets.

[UglyMowgli]

You still didn't digest the Hundred Years' War? Did you known the next French SSN will be named Guillaume Le Conquerant, you known the French guy who ... , well you known the story, no need to to put salt on the wound :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

[Kapitan]

You still didn't digest the Hundred Years' War? Did you known the next French SSN will be named Guillaume Le Conquerant, you known the French guy who ... , well you known the story, no need to to put salt on the wound :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

Yeah it is rather a shame though they have to go back nearly a millennium to find a French person who actually won a battle (tongue firmly in cheek) i mean us Brits have so many that even the US navy uses our names too.

[Jimbuna]

Yeah it is rather a shame though they have to go back nearly a millennium to find a French person who actually won a battle (tongue firmly in cheek) i mean us Brits have so many that even the US navy uses our names too.

:haha:

[UglyMowgli]

The USN had/have some French named ship like Lafayette ,Normandy, Bonhomme Richard, ....

[Kapitan]

Bonne Homme Richard; means good man Richard in French and its named for Benjamin Franklin (one of the founding fathers and he is British)

Lafayette is a Frenchman who helped in the American revolutionary war this mainly to spite the British who were the French enemies at the time.

Normandy Northern region of France which technically includes the Channel islands Jersey and Guernsey, also note HM Queen Elizabeth II is the Duke of Normandy.

[Grom]

Yeah it is rather a shame though they have to go back nearly a millennium to find a French person who actually won a battle (tongue firmly in cheek) i mean us Brits have so many that even the US navy uses our names too.
Do you mean British won battle like in Denmark Straits or was it Dunkirk? XD

[Kapitan]

Do you mean British won battle like in Denmark Straits or was it Dunkirk? XD

We lost the battle but won the war that's the key thing.

Also if we trace William the conquerors heritage he came from Normandy (which meant Norse land / land of the northern people its where the Vikings settled) William himself his family originated from Scandinavia and the Vikings.

[Exocet25fr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVXAp3Efj8w

[Exocet25fr]

The French military actually has the best military record in Europe having won 132 of the 185 battles they fought in the last 800 years !:haha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces#History

[Kapitan]

The French military actually has the best military record in Europe having won 132 of the 185 battles they fought in the last 800 years !:haha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces#History

You can win a million battles and loose the war, you can loose a million battle and win the war

Its the winning the war that matters not the battle

If you look at the US involvement in afghanistan or vietnam they won pretty much every engagement but still lost the wars which demonstrates the above point exactly.

France has actually won 1115 battles
England (Including after union in 1707) 1105

France and the UK are close equals but in terms of colonial / imperial achievements of land mass and influence the UK wins out spectacularly (Largest empire in history)

Its why most of the worlds first or second language is English, why at sea or in the air all transmissions are made in English.

[Exocet25fr]

France is the second Maritime Space after the Yankee :03:

Maritime power remains a major geopolitical advantage, so long as a country has the means to put it into effect. The increasingly maritime nature of globalization also plays to the advantage of those countries that have a maritime policy worthy of the name. France possesses these advantages and, well aware of the strategic stakes involved, is making a great effort to support its navy.

[Kapitan]

France is the second Maritime Space after the Yankee :03:

Maritime power remains a major geopolitical advantage, so long as a country has the means to put it into effect. The increasingly maritime nature of globalization also plays to the advantage of those countries that have a maritime policy worthy of the name. France possesses these advantages and, well aware of the strategic stakes involved, is making a great effort to support its navy.

Basing purely on the Navy not including army or air force in this

France is no where near second in the maritime sphere to the Americans, its not even close if your basing it on numbers and capability.

There's also still a gulf between France and the UK numerically, Logistically, tactically and strategically and I really hate to brake it to you France is quite a way behind here and here is why.

Currently France maintains a single carrier which IMHO is the best in Europe for multirole operations and strike capability given that it can operate a multitude of American aircraft as well as French and the types of aircraft carried are also quite wide.

Yes when the CDG came into the fleet she had problems but she has actually proved herself a fantastic asset to France and as I said IMHO best carrier in Europe for it and worth the money spent on her.
But that leaves France with a problem, a single carrier cannot be on station or available 100% of the time which leaves the fleet vulnerable or reliant on allied assistance.

The UK yes has cheeped out a little with STOVL carriers but there's reasons for this, but the UK maintains now 2 carriers which means that at least 1 carrier will be available at all times, which immediately gives advantage to the UK strategically in any future engagement.

So where are the numbers at currently?

France Marine National (including ships on charter)

4 SSBN
6 SSN
1 CVN
3 LPH
15 Major surface units
21 Minor surface units
17 Mine warfare units
Total 67 Combat units

Non combat auxiliary units
2 Fleet replenishment
4 Reasearch and intelligence ships
5 Survey vessels
Total 11 non combat units
Total 78 naval assets

UK Naval assets (including charter and RFA)

4 SSBN
6 SSN (7th to be commissioned very soon)
2 CV
18 Major surface units
26 Minor surface units
11 Mine Warfare units
Total 69 Combat units

Non combat auxiliary units

7 Fleet replenishment
3 Landing ships
5 Research vessels
4 RoRo charters
1 Casualty and aviation ship (due to decommission very soon)
1 Commercial Tanker

Total 21 Non combat units
Total naval assets 90



There is one key area I want to point your attention too and it makes the world of difference between the UK and France, that is the Logistics arm, the numbers above matter not if you cannot supply the vessels underway while beyond your own borders or friendly ports. (NOTE: I am going to base the next bit on a rough guide on how long you can stretch the AO’s out for its not 100% accurate as I cannot disclose true figures)

France maintains only 2 replenishment ships which is enough to support a carrier group only for a couple of weeks on station (if we didn’t re supply them) in full swing other than that they are heavily reliant on allied assistance (usually Germany UK and USA) or a friendly port.

The UK in contrast has 7 dedicated fleet replenishment ships, these can maintain a carrier strike group in full swing for an average of 7 weeks (if we didn’t re supply them) the reality is much less as you wouldn’t sail all 7 together so 3 to 5 weeks would be the norm also note UK AO’s are much larger than their French counterparts.

In terms of logistical capabilities the UK surpasses even the USA here, strange but true, there are more ports in more countries around the world open to UK combat and non combat vessels than there are American, there are more ships on the UK register available to be taken up from trade than France or the USA, the UK also has substantial overseas territories available to base or operate its vessels regardless if there is a full time presence or not.


The UK Maintains 21 full time naval overseas bases, France maintains only 11 naval overseas bases, in contrast the USA maintains 15 bases for naval purposes.

The UK has access like France to all NATO ports, the UK like the USA but not France has access to ports in Japan, Australia, many gulf states, Israel and South Korea.
Unlike the USA or France the UK has the ability to access Egypt, Singapore, India, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Thailand, New Zealand, Chile and many others in the southern and central American states, and multiple African, Asian, Caribbean and Gulf states. (too long to list individually)

The UK unlike France or the USA can also call upon the commonwealth to supplement forces, indeed you will know that we have Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, Jamaican, Barbadian and many other personnel from the commonwealth in the Royal Navy (Works in reverse too with RN personnel working in other navies including the USN)

This is a significant, the reason its significant is because it means that UK vessels have the ability to resupply pretty much anywhere around the globe something the French and even to a degree the US navy does not have (and one of the main reasons why the USN has a large Auxiliary force).

As I said at the beginning its not all about numbers of ships its about the ability to supply the ships while they are in operation, after all if you cannot supply the ship the ship is useless.
and if you want proof of the logistical problems China and Russia are great case studies for this (Studied both at great length), even China with the worlds largest navy by hull count still cannot operate in any meaningful way for extended periods beyond its region it doesn’t have the logistical capability to do so neither does Russia.

UK naval assets are very heavily used globally, while France does not maintain the same tempo or operational fields and does not maintain presence in many areas permanently like the USN or RN does.

If you were to take a like for like ship and measure its deployment tempo across France the UK and USA the UK asset is more heavily utilised than both the US or France, its why after around the 27 year mark the UK asset is basically worn out completely where as French assets last a little longer around 30-32 years and the USA 35-40 years on average.

Maritime power remains a major geopolitical advantage, so long as a country has the means to put it into effect

So no France is in no way second in terms of maritime power behind the USA for the aforementioned reasons it has limited capability in putting its power in effect well beyond its borders without allied assistance for long durations but with that said France still does maintain a very good navy that’s good at power projection, it is modern capable and effective and is rated blue water like the USA and UK. (Tier 2 blue water jointly with the UK under the Todd and Lindberg classification system)

Amateur's study tactics professionals study logistics - Napoleon Bonaparte
I'm sure you can guess what field I work in and study ;)

Space

In terms of space development the UK is lacking behind the French here and that’s more because we work closely with the Americans for joint program developments and also ESA.
Currently the UK budget is around £470 million for space projects where as the French are far ahead with a budget of around €2.4bn.
France also has an advantage as they use Guyana for launching rockets the UK does not have that capability, we rely on France and the USA to launch our stuff.
France also gets paid by ESA to maintain a sizeable space economy on behalf of several smaller nations and works substantially with many EU countries in this area.

What France does not have though is access to sensitive American satellites, something the UK does have which is done under the five eyes program so that’s probably why our space economy is rather behind in terms of funding and developments.

In terms of Ranking Russia would come 2nd to the USA their space program is far larger than the French they also have much more invested in space tech, and currently Russia operates the only vehicle to get astronauts / cosmonauts into space.
France has never put a human into space on the back of one of its own rockets (neither has the British) to say France ranks 2nd is not true and soon France will likely fall into 4th place behind China if it hasn't already.

[Exocet25fr]

I wrote that basing purely on the Navy, of course ! :yep:
I'm not completly stupid..... :)

[Kapitan]

I wrote that basing purely on the Navy, of course ! :yep:
I'm not completly stupid..... :)

Wasn't accusing you of being stupid :Kaleun_Salute:

The French have a long tradition of being a continental power and I could have put stuff in about the army and air forces which along side the Navy I work with as well.

France has a larger army than the UK, the French army numbers around 115,000 where as the UK only has around 80,000 but traditionally we have always had a smaller army, we also don't have the same number of assets in the army as the French do.

Air Force wise the RAF is larger than the Armee de l'air the RAF totals around 850 aircraft at present while the Armee de l'air numbers around 575, we also have 5th generation aircraft in the inventory where as the French don't, the RAF also operates more larger long range cargo aircraft than France such as the A400m C130 (France also operates these) and the C17
Making the UK airlift capacity larger as a whole.

France maintains a substantial modern and efficient military that is for sure and having worked with them very closely for a long period of time you do get to understand each other quirks and niches, but overall French foreign policy and areas of interest differ greatly from the that of the UK and USA which is why there's such a difference between the two great powers of Europe.

On a side note a great niche of France that the UK does not have is the intelligence gathering ships, the UK relies more heavily on satellites and aircraft for this role.

[Exocet25fr]

You're right :)

Just for information: the new name of French "armée de l'air" is "armée de l'Air et de l'Espace" :)

Look at this thread too:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=250869