For the guys playing with crew fatigue... [Archive]

Fifi

10-17-20, 04:55 AM

Hi all,

Have you ever wondered why your crew get fatigue Working at low TC but not at high TC?
Just discovered why...

In your time compression settings, you have a line called « When in 3D view » (in Cmdr, or 3D rendering in Doc/SH3/Main)
If you put X32, your crew will have fatigue working up to X32, but not above!
If your max TC is X1024, and you put X1024 in your « When in 3D view », even full TC your crew fatigue will work!

In other words, the setting you put in your « When in 3D view » is the value at what your time compression stops the fatigue working :03:
So if you want to cross the Atlantic with no crew fatigue, but keeping a fatigue working when close to Action, setting X32/X64 in the « When in 3D view » is the solution.
If you want to manage your crew fatigue even when full TC, you have to put the same value you have in Max Time Compression in « When in 3D view » :03:

Hope that helps!

:Kaleun_Salute:

PS: I’m even wondering if this setting can impact the sunrise and sunset shifting we have when long high TC...not certain, but it could anyway.
In all cases, it was recommanded To set those values identical for some good reason.

FUBAR295

10-17-20, 07:23 AM

Nice find.:Kaleun_Applaud:

Good hunting,
FUBAR295

jorgegonzalito

10-17-20, 08:05 AM

Hi all,

Have you ever wondered why your crew get fatigue Working at low TC but not at high TC?
Just discovered why...

In your time compression settings, you have a line called « When in 3D view » (in Cmdr, or 3D rendering in Doc/SH3/Main)
If you put X32, your crew will have fatigue working up to X32, but not above!
If your max TC is X1024, and you put X1024 in your « When in 3D view », even full TC your crew fatigue will work!

In other words, the setting you put in your « When in 3D view » is the value at what your time compression stops the fatigue working :03:
So if you want to cross the Atlantic with no crew fatigue, but keeping a fatigue working when close to Action, setting X32/X64 in the « When in 3D view » is the solution.
If you want to manage your crew fatigue even when full TC, you have to put the same value you have in Max Time Compression in « When in 3D view » :03:

Hope that helps!

:Kaleun_Salute:

PS: I’m even wondering if this setting can impact the sunrise and sunset shifting we have when long high TC...not certain, but it could anyway.
In all cases, it was recommanded To set those values identical for some good reason.

Come on lazy! Go Go! to work! they will have time to rest when they are dead! Hahaha!

Fifi

10-18-20, 04:52 AM

Probably the best setting would be to put the value just below your maximum TC in 3D render (or When in 3D View in Cmdr), so sailing max TC you don’t have to care about crew management (for long distances) but all TC below you have crew fatigue working :03:

Randomizer

10-18-20, 11:51 AM

Good catch. Have always hated the SH3 Fatigue model, mainly because the crew organization provided by the game bears so little resemblance to the actual personnel organization of operational U-Boats. There may be an opportunity here to use the existing fatigue model in a more reasonable manner. Thanks for sharing.

-C

Fifi

10-18-20, 01:46 PM

In Commander/Cfg/crew fatigue model you can adjust values to your liking.

Ie stock SH3, modify all lines COEF|
Increase value increase fatigue (or endurance) rate... until you find the graal :D
There are 12 different compartments (including Flak/Deck gun station)
You can have different fatigue rate per compartments. Hardest thing is to figure the lines corresponding to compartments!
So in the Diesels room, it could be more tiring than in Command room etc
And...there is also the bad weather factor, wich can increase the fatigue too (important for deck station)

Onealex fatigue model is quite nice in that matter. That’s even the first time i enjoy playing with crew fatigue on....

John Pancoast

10-18-20, 03:36 PM

I'm surprised so many weren't aware of this. :o

Kapitän

10-19-20, 03:43 AM

I use the GWX/8h fatigue setting in Sh3_Cmdr. Works pretty good for me.

Fifi

10-19-20, 06:15 AM

I use the GWX/8h fatigue setting in Sh3_Cmdr. Works pretty good for me.

And what settings do you have in 3D render? :D

Kapitän

10-19-20, 06:23 AM

And what settings do you have in 3D render? :D

I have no more crew fatigue as of time compression x64.

Fifi

10-19-20, 07:34 AM

I have no more crew fatigue as of time compression x64.

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

CapZap1970

10-19-20, 12:30 PM

Great finding, Fifi!!! :up:

However, I also share John Pancoast's surprise... I'ts a big finding that nobody did before..

Thanks for sharing it. It's a very valuable piece of info... :Kaleun_Cheers:
CapZap

John Pancoast

10-19-20, 12:40 PM

Great finding, Fifi!!! :up:

However, I also share John Pancoast's surprise... I'ts a big finding that nobody did before..

Thanks for sharing it. It's a very valuable piece of info... :Kaleun_Cheers:
CapZap

Actually it's been known about since very soon after the game's release; I was just surprised some long term players didn't know about it.

No big deal. :up:

Fifi

10-19-20, 01:00 PM

Actually it's been known about since very soon after the game's release; I was just surprised some long term players didn't know about it.

No big deal. :up:

Because i never played with crew fatigue on, always no fatigue to avoid tiring/boring crew management.

Now that i tested it, and figured out this weird 3D rendering value affecting the crew clock (still don’t understand why, it should not), it’s interesting to set a crew fatigue compromise (Enjoyable/playable)

:Kaleun_Salute:

John Pancoast

10-19-20, 03:08 PM

Because i never played with crew fatigue on, always no fatigue to avoid tiring/boring crew management.

Now that i tested it, and figured out this weird 3D rendering value affecting the crew clock (still don’t understand why, it should not), it’s interesting to set a crew fatigue compromise (Enjoyable/playable)

:Kaleun_Salute:
Understood, thanks ! :up:

Subtype Zero

12-26-20, 04:41 PM

This is very cool. Thanks!

Hanzberger

01-02-21, 10:24 AM

Probably the best setting would be to put the value just below your maximum TC in 3D render (or When in 3D View in Cmdr), so sailing max TC you don’t have to care about crew management (for long distances) but all TC below you have crew fatigue working :03:

I use GWX model, which is really what your referring to above. (32TC) Long engagments, reloading, guys get tired.
However, what I am wondering is how do you guys do medals and awards. I have noticed that if I give my crew medals and such through SH CMD, they now never get tired. I find this very unrealistic.
Also how do you do your qualifications? Through game or CMDer?
Have you done any testing with the sunrise, sunset?

John Pancoast

01-02-21, 05:08 PM

I use GWX model, which is really what your referring to above. (32TC) Long engagments, reloading, guys get tired.
However, what I am wondering is how do you guys do medals and awards. I have noticed that if I give my crew medals and such through SH CMD, they now never get tired. I find this very unrealistic.
Also how do you do your qualifications? Through game or CMDer?
Have you done any testing with the sunrise, sunset?

I do awards, etc. mostly through Commander, sometimes through the game.
It isn't Commander that makes crew with medals get less tired; that is a stock result too.

Hanzberger

01-02-21, 06:05 PM

I'm thinking from now on I will only give medals through the game since it seems more stingy. Where do you stand on qualifications? I have done some research on it (opinions) and my overall conclusion is that all men should have some sort of qualification. I have no concrete testing but it seems the more medals or a certain amount of medals leads to no fatigue.

John Pancoast

01-02-21, 07:03 PM

I'm thinking from now on I will only give medals through the game since it seems more stingy. Where do you stand on qualifications? I have done some research on it (opinions) and my overall conclusion is that all men should have some sort of qualification. I have no concrete testing but it seems the more medals or a certain amount of medals leads to no fatigue.

In real life, yes, all officers/petty officers had some sort of qualification. But to me this is one of those times when plugging in something to simulate reality would not work in the game design so I only do one such qual at a time.
I.e., as you've discovered awards, etc. affect how the crew functions.

However, I do give each sailor (seaman, rating, whatever) a qual but that is just for "bookkeeping" help as it makes it easier to keep track of who belongs where. Ordinary sailors do not benefit from a qualification so it doesn't matter in that regard that they have one.
I.e., each motor room sailor has a machinist rating, each watch has a watch rating, etc. derstrosstrupp did some excellent work in this regard recently, look for his thread.

Also be sure to read the section in SH3 Commander about qualifications, etc. Makes it clearer.

derstosstrupp

01-02-21, 09:20 PM

Thanks John! Here’s the thread mentioned:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=247463

derstosstrupp

01-07-21, 11:05 PM

How does Onealex’s fatigue model differ from GWX 8-hr?

Fifi

01-08-21, 02:23 AM

How does Onealex’s fatigue model differ from GWX 8-hr?

Very similar but I prefer it.
I think crew are not loosing endurance that fast.

John Pancoast

01-08-21, 06:24 AM

After using just about every fatigue model out there I've took to using Kaa's old model and much prefer it to anything else.

Hanzberger

01-08-21, 06:46 AM

John do you have a link to that fatigue model?

John Pancoast

01-08-21, 06:57 AM

BritTorrent

01-08-21, 08:04 AM

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=224041&postcount=17

It simulates fatigue over the course of a patrol and does it well. Crew is always slowly fatiguing with no areas to recover it.

You'll have to format it match the current version of SH3 Commander's fatigue models. Below I've included the Type VII model which I've already reformatted (I only play the game with VII's) but it shows what needs to be done if you want the IX model too.
Just number them accordingly.

[5]
Desc=kaa VII
CREW_0|FatigueMax=0.80
CREW_0|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_1|FatigueMax=0.70
CREW_1|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_2|FatigueMax=0.60
CREW_2|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_3|FatigueMax=0.80
CREW_3|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_4|FatigueMax=0.70
CREW_4|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_5|FatigueMax=0.60
CREW_5|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_6|FatigueMax=0.80
CREW_6|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_7|FatigueMax=0.70
CREW_7|FatigueStep=0.0001
CREW_8|FatigueMax=0.60
CREW_8|FatigueStep=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor00=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor00=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather0=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor10=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor11=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor10=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor11=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather1=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor20=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor21=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor20=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor21=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather2=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor30=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor31=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor30=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor31=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather3=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor40=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor41=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor40=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor41=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather4=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor50=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor51=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor50=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor51=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather5=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor60=0.0
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor61=0.0
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor70=0.0
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor71=0.0
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor80=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor81=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor80=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor81=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather8=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor90=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor90=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather9=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor100=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor100=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather10=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor110=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor111=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor110=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor111=0.0001
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather11=0.0001

Hi John. This sounds interesting. I've been on the lookout for a decent fatigue model for a while, I play GWX currently and I find the required rotation time a little too much. Having to drop out of TC every minute or so to change people around is a chore.

So far I've found NYGM's model to be a nice balance of the two. The time between watch changes is long enough to not be too much of a bore, but enough that you still get the feeling of being involved with your crew. I'd like to use it with GWX but when I've looked at incorporating it into the GWX basic.cfg I find it all to be a bit overwhelming. Especially on top of German U-Boat Compilation's basic.cfg! I don't even know where to start merging the three...

No fatigue just feels off for me. It's much more playable but it almost feels like cheating.

How does this fatigue system compare? How often do you find you need to do watch changes to stop them from deteriorating too fast, and roughly how long a patrol do you get out of them before they're worn out? I like the idea of a full patrol fatigue system but I'd be interested to know how it fares with long voyages to the Caribbean or the Indian Ocean.

John Pancoast

01-08-21, 08:38 AM

Hi John. This sounds interesting. I've been on the lookout for a decent fatigue model for a while, I play GWX currently and I find the required rotation time a little too much. Having to drop out of TC every minute or so to change people around is a chore.

So far I've found NYGM's model to be a nice balance of the two. The time between watch changes is long enough to not be too much of a bore, but enough that you still get the feeling of being involved with your crew. I'd like to use it with GWX but when I've looked at incorporating it into the GWX basic.cfg I find it all to be a bit overwhelming. Especially on top of German U-Boat Compilation's basic.cfg! I don't even know where to start merging the three...

No fatigue just feels off for me. It's much more playable but it almost feels like cheating.

How does this fatigue system compare? How often do you find you need to do watch changes to stop them from deteriorating too fast, and roughly how long a patrol do you get out of them before they're worn out? I like the idea of a full patrol fatigue system but I'd be interested to know how it fares with long voyages to the Caribbean or the Indian Ocean.

if you want to use NYGM's model with other installs, use this file as is or merged as desired.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ew9vaghzd6f3wpu/Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Crew_Management_Mod_1.1.zip/file

To answer your Kaa model questions watch changes only need happen a few times a patrol. Crew gets fatigued but they'll perform their duties just much slower when fatigued.
I like the NYGM system too, actually don't dislike any of them but just much prefer the Kaa model as I really dislike micro-managing anything. :)
Roughly one can expect them to last for a month/1.5 month patrol.

BritTorrent

01-08-21, 02:18 PM

if you want to use NYGM's model with other installs, use this file as is or merged as desired.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ew9vaghzd6f3wpu/Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Crew_Management_Mod_1.1.zip/file

To answer your Kaa model questions watch changes only need happen a few times a patrol. Crew gets fatigued but they'll perform their duties just much slower when fatigued.
I like the NYGM system too, actually don't dislike any of them but just much prefer the Kaa model as I really dislike micro-managing anything. :)
Roughly one can expect them to last for a month/1.5 month patrol.

Thanks John that's fantastic, I'll look at implementing that!

John Pancoast

01-08-21, 02:59 PM

Thanks John that's fantastic, I'll look at implementing that!

Any problems feel free to ask for help.