50 feet under the keel? No way!

[jorgegonzalito]

In a simple GWX mission, a convoy is ordered to attack the coastal area of Charleston, USA. The mission begins - as usual - with the convoy about ten miles or less from the U-boat. We are in shallow water and the depth below the keel is just 50 feet! Am I exaggerating or is it a suicide attack, more typical of Japanese fanaticism than of the thinking brain of a German? With that depth at the time the submarine is detected by the planes and escort ships, it will be doomed and with it all its crew, because it will not be able to dive deep nor can it escape submerged with the poor speed that its electric motors give it. Wouldn't it be more sensible to wait for the convoy in deeper water and attack it, if there is a way to know what the usual routes they use?
In the avatar I appear as a doctor of the red cross, but I am not a conscientious objector, if I have to fight I do it fiercely, but I always risk if I see I have a chance of winning. Otherwise I would be foolish, it is not only my life that I put at risk, don't you think?

[bstanko6]

It is commanders discretion. But yes, I would wait for deeper waters.

[Jimbuna]

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!! https://i.postimg.cc/SNXX5Rs8/pirate-1.gif (https://postimages.org/)

[Randomizer]

What Jimbuna says.

You really should read up about some Drumbeat patrols and the Inshore Campaign of 1944-45. Of course in the latter, casualties were heavy and successes few but shallow water ops were definitely ordered by BdU and executed by aggressive commanders when opportunity arose.

-C

[jorgegonzalito]

A submarine commander is not Mandrake, and Doenitz had no trouble giving those orders, since the only thing that could happen to him is to cut himself while shaving in the morning.

[Randomizer]

I have no idea who or what a Mandrake is but it seems clear that you don't seem to be having very much fun with SH3.

Or for that matter understanding how subordinates do not get to select which orders to follow and which to just say "No thanks, I'll sit this one out." You can do so in the game but then you brought up real life with:

Doenitz had no trouble giving those orders, since the only thing that could happen to him is to cut himself while shaving in the morning

Doenitz did his time as a U-Boat commander, as a torpedo boat flotilla leader, a cruiser captain and then as BdU. Presumably he followed orders as best he could and expected his subordinates to do the same. Invoking his distance from the front in a game context is actually a pretty disingenuous and even dishonest unless it's applied equally to practically every senior commander in the 20th Century. Doing that will just display a massive ignorance of how military's function in the real world.

While I am not a fan of Doenitz for a variety of reasons, implying that he was indifferent is just plain garbage unsupported by any evidence.

We get it, you don't like the game, you don't like shallow water ops (who does but sometimes they're necessary), you don't like the fatigue model (use SH3 Commander and turn it off) and you have no idea how a naval command hierarchy actually works.

-C

[jorgegonzalito]

Sometimes I forget that I may be talking to someone from another generation long after mine, excuse me. Mandrake was a famous comic book magician of my time (I was born in 1950), who dressed in an impeccable tuxedo and could solve anything. Regarding Doenitz, I have read a lot about the Second World War, I know that he was not a bad subject, I know that he was a submarine commander in the 1914-1918 war. But in those years the technology was very primitive, there was neither asdic nor sonar, and the Allied antisubmarine tactics were not as deadly effective. It is not that I do not like the game, if I did I would leave it and dedicate myself to something else, what I do not like are certain things that the game has, which have little to do with reality, and I am not the only one since many have worked on creating mods to eliminate various impossible or annoying situations. I also know what discipline and hierarchies are, because I was a police sergeant in my country, and there were also those who gave foolish orders that deep down they knew they couldn't be carried out. It is a simple matter of philosophy, if they send you to the slaughterhouse, look for an alternative path.

[Randomizer]

Thank you for the civil reply. As for Mandrake I seem to recall that he was a Marvel Comic bad guy from back in the 1960's but since I have not read one of these in almost sixty-years the name may have some other applicability today.

Realism in gaming is always a loaded topic full of red-herrings and I have come to believe that you bring it to the game in how you play. If you wait for the game publishers to provide it you will be waiting forever. But we can differ on this point.

Perhaps this is why the NYGM Mod is high on my list of favourite versions of SH3. What it lacks in eye-candy is more than made up for in the situations that arise chasing a convoy in 1942 or early 43 or prowling around the British Isles in late 1944.

We're probably more alike than different, me being a 1955-model and retired veteran of more than 28-years in my country's Field Artillery and another 12 in Search and Rescue.

Cheers.

-C

[John Pancoast]

As eluded to earlier, look at the historical Drumbeat patrols. There were numerous very successful patrols in such shallow US waters during it.