Liar's Paradox

[TopTorp '92]

What I am saying is a lie.
Is it true or false?
If true then it is false.
If false then it is true.
This is the common understanding.

Propositions must include a Subject and a Predicate in order to function as a proposition.
The Liar appears to predicate the term "lie" to every instance "what I am saying".
How can this be? What must follow? Hence, the absurdity.
Is truth a genus, species, specific difference, accident, or property?
None of these.
Can truth be used to predicate a subject? I think not.
The proposition "What I am saying is false" has no predicate. It does not function as a proposition.
As such, it is not a paradox.

[Aktungbby]

TopTorp '92!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Rockstar]

Something which cannot be proven false doesn’t provide any proof that it is true.

[Platapus]

Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. - Carl Sagan

[Catfish]

The second time i read the word "veridical" today.

Something to do with the Biden - Trump debate?
Surely not :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

The second time i read the word "veridical" today.

Something to do with the Biden - Trump debate?
Surely not :hmmm:My veridical perception is: "that was no debate, that was simply a white trash pissing contest and an embarrassment before the entire planet!":arrgh!:

[Mr Quatro]

How can the truth be the truth if you can't prove it? :hmmm:

[Eichhörnchen]

^ The truth exists regardless of proof

[Rockstar]

Is it true, SpaceX Starlink system is a low latency, broadband internet system designed to meet the needs of consumers across the globe. Providing rural areas and the poor accessible and inexpensive internet access so we all can sing Kumbayah together.

OR

is it really


A tracking layer: Provides tracking, targeting and advanced warning of missile threats.
A custody layer: Provides “all-weather custody of all identified time-critical targets.”
A deterrence layer: Provides space situational awareness—detecting and tracking objects in space to help satellites avoid collisions.
A navigation layer: Provides alternative positioning, navigation and timing services in case GPS is blocked or unavailable.
A battle management layer: A command, control and communications network augmented by artificial intelligence that provides self-tasking, self-prioritization, on-board processing and dissemination.
A support layer: Ground command and control facilities and user terminals, as well as rapid-response launch services.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/battlefield-tech/2019/07/03/the-pentagons-new-space-agency-has-an-idea-about-the-future/

[Sailor Steve]

What I am saying is a lie.
We only have your word that you are lying.

The truth exists regardless of proof
But we have no way of determining what the truth is without proof.

[Catfish]

^ even then the "truth" looks different depending on a) the distance to the mass that keeps the galaxy spinning around a center (truth ~ physical laws here), b) the quantum foam and c) the human resistance to accept science.

[Rockstar]

How do you define proof?

[Skybird]

Two things are certain.

A theory that cannot be tested, is no theory. Thus, the theory that somethign is true, is pointless if it cannot be tesated for its truth. We call that a claim.

There can be only one truth, it is free from interpretation. The term implies it, we do not talk of subjective opinions. When there are claimed to be more than one truths, all but one must be wrong. And sometimes even all are wrong. But never more than just one.

For people living life pragmatically, that is enough to navigate between truth and lies.

[mapuc]

This thread reminded me of today's episode of Through the wormhole with Morgan Freeman earlier this afternoon

Title Why do we lie.

(there was two episode)

Markus

[Rockstar]

I think what Mr. Squirrel was saying is that truth exists independently of our act of knowing. I think a good example of that would be when mathematician, astronomer, and geographer Claudius Ptolemy after observing the heavens above crafted a widely accepted theory the earth was the fixed center of the universe. :D


"It is not the truth that a man possesses, or believes that he possesses, but the earnest effort which he puts forward to reach the truth, which constitutes the worth of a man. - Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

[mapuc]

From a movie scene

- "You can't handle the truth"

Markus

[Skybird]

From a movie scene

- "You can't handle the truth"

Markus
"Why would I want that as long as I can handle a club?" (from a president's head) :D

[mapuc]

"Why would I want that as long as I can handle a club?" (from a president's head) :D

It's from the movie

"A few good men"

Markus

[Jimbuna]

You think that not getting caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?

[Rockstar]

That's somewhat akin to the saying: it isn't illegal until you get caught.

[TopTorp '92]

Something which cannot be proven false doesn’t provide any proof that it is true.


Huh? How do you know that? Is it true or the case that "Something which cannot be proven false doesn’t provide any proof that it is true"?
Are your own statements subject to validation? Mine are.

Is it true you cannot know the truth? Or, are you lying?

Popper inverted truth, causality and other logical relations along with Humeans, Lockeans and others (Skeptics.)
Hence, Skeptics are liars and Mystics are too.

[TopTorp '92]

Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. - Carl Sagan
A Value Judgement, Mr. Platapus or Carl Sagan?

[TopTorp '92]

Two things are certain.

A theory that cannot be tested, is no theory. Thus, the theory that somethign is true, is pointless if it cannot be tesated for its truth. We call that a claim.

There can be only one truth, it is free from interpretation. The term implies it, we do not talk of subjective opinions. When there are claimed to be more than one truths, all but one must be wrong. And sometimes even all are wrong. But never more than just one.

For people living life pragmatically, that is enough to navigate between truth and lies.
How can Skybyrd claim certainty that two things are certain?
A contradiction?

[Mr Quatro]

True or false

The stars in heaven are so far away that they might not even still be there, due to it took thousands of light years for what we see to get here.

[Platapus]

A Value Judgement, Mr. Platapus or Carl Sagan?


One of my favorite, among many favorite Carl Sagan quotes. That was one pretty smart feller. :up:

[Rockstar]

Huh? How do you know that? Is it true or the case that "Something which cannot be proven false doesn’t provide any proof that it is true"?

When I said that I was primarily thinking about the petty arguments between people or groups of people. The kind of which you see all over the internet these days where tribes argue for their version of the truth. All too often one tribe will say "show me where I'm wrong" or just print what ever comes to mind to fulfill an agenda knowing full well the other cant find proof of it being a wrong. But just because it cant be refuted or shown to be false doesn't make what the other said or printed true.

The earlier example of Aristotles, Plato's and Ptolemy's theories of a geocentrism falls into that too. For several hundred years it was widely accepted that our planet Earth was the point at which the universe revolved. Just because others couldn't prove or didn't want to prove geocentrism false didn't make the then tested and widely accepted theory of geocentrism true.


Is it true you cannot know the truth? Or, are you lying?I think it's fair to say we can know the truth. We just may not have the means to know all truth. As I said truth exists even without the human act of knowing of its existence. There are many truths in this universe we have yet to be made aware of.

[TopTorp '92]

How do you define proof?
Proof is reduction to the self evident.
I didn't originate the post to discuss proof.
The purpose of dismissing the Liar's Paradox is that it states no proposition with a Subject and Predicate. There is no identification going on here.
One popular author restated the proposition in order to counter the objection that the paradox is self referential or is meaningless as stated. His reformulation is as follows:


Statement 2 is false.
Statement 1 is true.


Here, the author made two statements out of one and later failed to resolve the Liar's Paradox in his own book. He failed to resolve the paradox because he misses the point.
The point is that the paradox has no Subject-Predicate relationship.


Skeptics say I can't know the truth without a test, which misses the point.
The Liar in the paradox attempts to predicate the term "truth" to "what I am saying."
My point is that truth cannot function as a predicate in the paradox.
For example, you say, "is it true to say that happy dogs wag their tails?"
What you mean by "is it true to say" is not about Truth as such. It means you want to know whether the proposition is true as propositions assert either truth or falsity about reality.
End.


I'll come back next week with another paradox.
TopTorp '92

[Rockstar]

The problem with discussing a philosophy is you cannot declare it to be true. Philosophy are like opinions and you know what they say about opinions they're like buttholes everyone (except dear leader Un) got one. :O:

[TopTorp '92]

The problem with discussing a philosophy is you cannot declare it to be true.
That is why some of use logic and reason.
Otherwise we are back to the Skeptics & Mystics.

[Aktungbby]

That is why some of use logic and reason.
Otherwise we are back to the Skeptics & Mystics. As I recollect from my '70's logic courses as a unit of required math or philosphy:.."if element 'P' leads to 'Q' then leads to 'R'"... occasionally = S & M! :03: