1994: Estnic ferry Estonia sunk after collision with submarine?

[Skybird]

https://news.err.ee/1140442/head-of-ms-estonia-investigation-estonia-sank-on-collision-with-submarine

[Jimbuna]

The fact we have not been made aware of the hole for 26 years or it has been covered up is scandalous enough?

There lies the million dollar question.

[Gerald]

Conspiracy Theory 100?

Many of them have been through the years who dived and made their own "investigations". Now dplay (Owner Discovery Network) has delivered its share, which mainsteam media quickly and obediently intercepted.
No one is surprised, at least not me or the friends I know who have in any way been deeply involved in this for a long time, especially initially. The submarine theory has previously been the subject of various conversations. In that perspective, it should be said that there were "around" 14 submarines in operational mode at the time. Hiding an event in a collision with a surface ship and a submarine would be in my eyes in principle "impossible" because it would require a huge cover of the accident and thus nothing that can be swept away in any way.

[mapuc]

Conspiracy Theory 100?

Many of them have been through the years who dived and made their own "investigations". Now dplay (Owner Discovery Network) has delivered its share, which mainsteam media quickly and obediently intercepted.
No one is surprised, at least not me or the friends I know who have in any way been deeply involved in this for a long time, especially initially. The submarine theory has previously been the subject of various conversations. In that perspective, it should be said that there were "around" 14 submarines in operational mode at the time. Hiding an event in a collision with a surface ship and a submarine would be in my eyes in principle "impossible" because it would require a huge cover of the accident and thus nothing that can be swept away in any way.

I agree on what you wrote, except on little thing.

In the morning the Swedish prime minister, promised that Estonia should be raised from the bottom of the sea...then he had a meeting with the Russian ambassador and right thereafter he had made a 180 degree turn and now Estonia shouldn't be raised but be seen as a graveyard.

This is not conspiracy-Because I remember this clearly-First our prime minister giving this promise on the TV4 Nyheterna then later in the evening suddenly change his mind in the 2100 hrs news on Aktuellt. I remember I was a little confused...it was first some days later I was told that the same day at noon he had a meeting with the Russian ambassador.

So what did they discuss since Carl Bildt change his mind during this day in September ???
NO I do not believe in Conspiracy.

Markus

[Gerald]

I agree on what you wrote, except on little thing.

In the morning the Swedish prime minister, promised that Estonia should be raised from the bottom of the sea...then he had a meeting with the Russian ambassador and right thereafter he had made a 180 degree turn and now Estonia shouldn't be raised but be seen as a graveyard.

This is not conspiracy-Because I remember this clearly-First our prime minister giving this promise on the TV4 Nyheterna then later in the evening suddenly change his mind in the 2100 hrs news on Aktuellt. I remember I was a little confused...it was first some days later I was told that the same day at noon he had a meeting with the Russian ambassador.

So what did they discuss since Carl Bildt change his mind during this day in September ???
NO I do not believe in Conspiracy.

MarkusCarl Bildt and others in the outgoing government did not act professionally, this is quite clear. And on the question of why a complete reversal was made, I am not the right person to answer, however, a meeting with an ambassador is not directly decisive, but of course a Russian one can speed up "different theories", given the history and violations of previous submarines in Swedish water from various actors in the Baltic Sea.

Estonia is located on the seabed with the shallowest point of only 54 meters, and amidships about 60 m, the deepest point at the bottom of the wreck is about 80 m. This fact means that it could well have been done significantly more in salvage and surveys than what was done. Covering with stone and other considerations are weaknesses from Bildt and the incoming Carlsson government. Bow visors were planted among the Swedish population and many others, which many of me are well aware of weaknesses due to metal fatigue. Sure, there are a lot of question marks in this, but there are also a lot of facts, realistic facts.

One person who has dedicated her life to making money on other people dead or alive, is Jutta Rabe, she gets some media time here. The person is probably not unfamiliar to most people. Journalist and freelancer for Spiegel-TV and worked for ZDF, ARTE and others. Her actions in this are disgusting in many respects.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutta_Rabe

Unfortunately, there is a lot of public information that abounds, especially online and that has not been verified, which creates excellent conditions for theories all theories!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5tbah19qo8

R.I.P. ESTONIA, 1980-1994

[Skybird]

Hiding an event in a collision with a surface ship and a submarine would be in my eyes in principle "impossible" because it would require a huge cover of the accident and thus nothing that can be swept away in any way.
Well, the only Baltic state I think had the option to cover it up and also the interest to do so, was Russia. In the West, the media people probably indeed would have been still too pesky at that time. And if a Russian sub was moved, it is quite believable that it was close to the surface, because the sea is relatively shallow at the site of the event, yes? There also wopuld have been a Western interest nto to cause an affront to the Russians, due to newly found Western-Russian friendship and hopes and ambitions and all that...


That it was an American, British, French sub, I practically rule out, their nuclear long-range boats are too huge for that Baltic area. The Baltic states, the Scandiavian states, Germany, Poland operate boats designed for the Baltic, smaller boats. And there always was a division of duties: Britain, France, the US fighting for the Atlantic, Germany, Denmark in the Baltic and North Sea.

[Reece]

Then there is this:
https://news.err.ee/1140766/taltech-engineers-doubt-ms-estonia-sank-due-to-submarine-collision

[Jimbuna]

In view of the fact there is no definitive evidence (depending on what side of the debate you support) I doubt it will ever be known what actually happened.

[Kapitan]

Personally i do not see it happening, i dont think a submarine ever hit the estonia

Weather: on the night there was a storm all survivors note the heaving ship and conditions, given the weather no submarine i dont think will want to be near the surface nuclear or conventional.

The visor: Estonias sister ship also had her visor hinges fail in rough weather but not to the extent of Estonia

Ship speed: the ship was going pretty fast for the conditions, the Soviet trained captain would have been instilled with the discipline of get there on time or a reprimand awaits.

A 16,000ton ferry v a 1,000ton submarine wont end well the damage would cause the submarine to surface in the best case scenario and in international waters NATO would be all over it as weould the Swedes it would have been noticed we couldnt hide that.

I think the evedence is too strong and that the conclusion the initial inquiry found was the correct one.

[mapuc]

I say lets wait for the upcoming report. The Swedish government has activated the Swedish accident commission. They will send dives down to the wreck take photos and other things.

Another thing I think is important and which I remember from some documentary on Danish tv(I think it was)

"There wasn't exactly any secrets that ship name*/Estonia was used for transporting secrets, industrial and military from east to west and vice versa.

* In this moment I can't remember what the name of the ship before she was renamed to Estonia.

One of the conspiracy I have heard, was that CIA had got their hand on some very important military equipment...so important that KGB did what was necessary.
(this is nothing but a conspiracy)

Markus

[Texas Red]

Currently, I stand in the middle here. Certainly, there would have been quite extensive damage to the sub if it had indeed collided with Estonia. Such a small sub against a big ship won't end well, and it would have surfaced only in the direst circumstances because as Kapitan said, it was too rough for it to be a suitable place to surface because of the weather. Surfacing would only occur after having received *extensive* damage and it could not be fixed. I am pretty sure also that it would have left some tell-tale signature on the boat or the debris in the water, maybe even a part of the submarine is on the seabed. Also, it would be a pretty hard thing to cover-up in the case of debris or eye-witness reports etc.

Then there is the unprofessional act with the Prime Minister of Sweeden and the Russian Ambassador. It certainly does seem a little fishy.

Other than that, I'm not taking a stand here.

[mapuc]

have anyone of you seen these clips from the wreck ?

Have seen it twice-first on Danish tv, later on Swedish.

I know seeing things through a camera may deceive, especially when it's under water and where it's total dark, where things is lighted up with artificiel lights

One of the side of the elongated hole, was bending outwards. while the other side was bending inwards.

It is possible I have seen it wrong

Markus

[Texas Red]

have anyone of you seen these clips from the wreck ?

Have seen it twice-first on Danish tv, later on Swedish.

I know seeing things through a camera may deceive, especially when it's under water and where it's total dark, where things is lighted up with artificiel lights

One of the side of the elongated hole, was bending outwards. while the other side was bending inwards.

It is possible I have seen it wrong

Markus

:hmmm:
Very strange indeed.

Like we have had enough crazy things happen in 2020...

I'm gonna ask Billy Joel to make a sequel to "We didn't start the Fire" that will be about 2020 only.....


It could be possible that it hit something that had been jostled from the seabed by the rough conditions and float up to the surface and the Estonia runs into it.
But it was bent outwards on one side and inwards on another.
Which means it would have had to be running into it, if I am correct. :hmmm:

My detective skills are lacking so I may be wrong.. haha.

[Dowly]

I don't believe these new claims for a second, stinks of just a new conspiracy theory to me.


The loss of the bow visor explains the sinking and there is both physical evidence and survivor statements to back it up. Four meter gash on the side of the hull at/just above the waterline simply doesn't explain the speed at which the ship listed; around 10 minutes for a 40+ degree list, another 10-15 minutes for a 80+ degree list.


Here's the final report for anyone who wants to read it:
https://onse.fi/estonia/conten.html

[Gerald]

I support this.