Damage

[KaleunMarco]

i encountered this while on patrol Late 1942 north of Papua-New Guinea while driving the USS Gudgeon (Gar-class).

while i was concentrating on a torpedo attack, a merchie ran over us from astern, causing extensive damage to the hull (38%) and equipment damage to the topside equipment and forward torpedo tubes. it is the torpedo tubes that i would like to describe more fully.

Tubes 1, 3, & 5 were reported destroyed and displayed the same status on the Equipment screen. the other three tubes displayed 100% ready for use. however, when i attempted to use tubes 2, 4, & 6, it was reported that they has sustained too much damage.

after returning to base, i inspected a saved ActiveUserPlyerUnits.upc file taken after the damage had occurred. and sure enough Tubes 1, 3, & 5 had DamageHitpointsConsumed=100.000000 as expected. however, tubes 2, 4, & 6 did not have that value:
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000

so, why couldn't i use tubes 2, 4, & 6?

has anyone else experienced this?
:Kaleun_Salute:
Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Ubisoft\TMO_2_5\MODS]

100 TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
101 1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for TMO 2.5
102 1.5_OTC for 16 to 9 Aspect Ratio_TMO
104 EZ Plot V2.0
300 RSRDC_RFB_V575
301 RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
400 Webster's Eliminate Floating Plankton

[ETR3(SS)]

If you still have a save from after the collision, take a look at the exterior to see if any pieces are missing outside.

[KaleunMarco]

If you still have a save from after the collision, take a look at the exterior to see if any pieces are missing outside.

yeah, i did that but i cannot see any damage on the starboard side and because of the stupid camera settings, i cannot rotate the external camera around the boat to see what is on the port side.

the camera for TMO+RSRD only allows for left-to-right movement on the starboard side.

https://i.ibb.co/RPbTBvs/SH4-Img-2020-08-18-10-23-23-001.png

if you (or anyone else) can tell me how to set the external camera to rotate around the ship in the viewer, i would be grateful.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

This is what gets me about the game, ran you over from astern, and damages the forward tubes... kinda backwards, it seems... but - how much flooding did you have in the forward torpedo room? I always assume, like with the periscopes, that the damage is external, and non-repairable if I still can't use something like the periscope (exterior head damge) or the tubes (exterior door damage)... and I don't think SH4 does door damage tracking, does it?... All I see in the damage system is the tubes, though they do show the animation in the upc file... but there are two sets of "damage description" for the tubes , with "jammed" and "chamber explosion" being the states, so one repairable, the other not...?? I cannot follow those cryptic numbers they do, though someone once had a "guide" to those. May-haps one of those is "illegal" and beyond a valid value...

[KaleunMarco]

This is what gets me about the game, ran you over from astern, and damages the forward tubes... kinda backwards

yes. port side, aft-to-fore.

how much flooding did you have in the forward torpedo room?

absolutely no flooding...in any compartment. however we sustained 38% hull damage. which i thought was very odd. however, at the time, i was thankful.

stern batteries.
one other item in the aft torpedo room which i cannot remember.
odd numbered torpedo tubes destroyed.
just about every piece of topside equipment sustained damage except for the hydrophone head.

once the damage was repaired there was no noticeable change in the speed performance when using the ETO. normally, hull damage degrades speed performance.
I don't think SH4 does door damage tracking, does it?
no, it does not. in fact, torpedo room doors are not a defined piece of equipment even though there is animation associated with them.

[KaleunMarco]

I cannot follow those cryptic numbers they do, though someone once had a "guide" to those. May-haps one of those is "illegal" and beyond a valid value...
i wrote this up for someone while i was working on DW with Fifi. it is based on posts that i read and my own analytic skills. take that for what it is worth.

Ok, this may become tedious, so buckle up. 
I used the NSS_Uboat7c.upcge as the example.
If you open that file with Notepad (or whatever you use for plain text editing), scroll down until you see DamageDescription1=. There will probably be 10 damage descriptions in ascending levels of damage. I believe that these are vestiges fro Silent Hunter 3 because some of the parms are no longer used which means that the thing was lifted from old code for expediency.
The damage parameters will follow this pattern with each value separate by a comma:

DamageDescription1
DamageType - always seems to be NULL
MinDamage - some factor smaller than the next value (Max)
MaxDamage - some factor larger than the last value (Min)
Note:Min and max are probably defined to give some internal subroutine a lowest and upper limit for damage. Totally set-able as long as the first is lower than the second and both values are between 0 and 1.
ChanceFactor - always zero. Probably a vestige.
Unknown
Unknown
Message - what it indicates except that we never see this in the game. All we see is Torpedo Room Damaged, Periscope Destroyed, etc.
DamageDestination- always zero. Probably a vestige.
Unknown
Unknown
EfficiencyReduction - exactly what is indicates. Always a decimal. Probably used as a multiplicative somewhere in the game.
Repair skill needed- exactly what is indicates. Always a decimal. Probably used as a multiplicative somewhere in the game.
Repair time in minutes - I think this value is not minutes. It could be…but I think not. Haven't been able to figure out if it is minutes or hours or days.

[ETR3(SS)]

Your Shutter Doors are all gone that's why. The damage zone is linked to the torpedo tube shutter doors, not the muzzle door. This is the same behavior we've seen with the rudder in the past, the 3d model is destructible thus rendering any repairs impossible. Expanding on this, there's no damage zone linked in the Weapons.upc file for the torpedo tubes. But, in the individual NSS_unitname.upc it is defined thusly:


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 1]
ID= TorpMountS1
NameDisplayable= Torpedo Tube 7
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes= TorpedoTube
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkBunker=SternTorpedoRoom
IDLinkWeaponIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, TorpedoTube21inUS, Mk14Torpedo
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalObjectName3D= NSS_Tambor_Door02_BRU_anim01
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 61


Those lines link that to the 3d model in the dat file and the zon file for the damage zone. The 61 is further defined in the zones.cfg file were in its entry it has a line as Destructible=Yes.


As for the camera movements, left click then use the arrow keys and mouse to move around.

[propbeanie]

So... in their continuing effort to confuse confound and befuddle, along with out-and-out "fixing" things, they hid the door damage in the SubName.upc file, and did not include that on the SubName interior screen, nor in the UPCUnitsData folder files... lol

@ ETR3(SS), can a listing for the doors and rudder be added to the Equipment and Weapons upc files, such that they then list on the submarine's "Subsystems" tab itself, or are we stuck with unidentifiable exterior damage in the SubName.upc file, as you show?... My guess is that the "ID" for that is already set internally to the game, and cannot be added to. Thanks. :salute:

[KaleunMarco]

As for the camera movements, left click then use the arrow keys and mouse to move around.

i've tried your suggestion, previously, but the camera behavior did not rotate around the ship.

do you know how i can modify the Camera.dat settings so that the external viewer CAN rotate rather than move for-and-aft?
:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

Your Shutter Doors are all gone that's why. The damage zone is linked to the torpedo tube shutter doors, not the muzzle door. This is the same behavior we've seen with the rudder in the past, the 3d model is destructible thus rendering any repairs impossible. Expanding on this, there's no damage zone linked in the Weapons.upc file for the torpedo tubes. But, in the individual NSS_unitname.upc it is defined thusly:


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 1]
ID= TorpMountS1
NameDisplayable= Torpedo Tube 7
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes= TorpedoTube
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkBunker=SternTorpedoRoom
IDLinkWeaponIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, TorpedoTube21inUS, Mk14Torpedo
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalObjectName3D= NSS_Tambor_Door02_BRU_anim01
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 61


Those lines link that to the 3d model in the dat file and the zon file for the damage zone. The 61 is further defined in the zones.cfg file were in its entry it has a line as Destructible=Yes.
so, a quick fix would be to modify the zone for this item in zones.cfg to Destructible=No?
then work on what PB suggests, which is to separate the doors from the tube.
thanks!
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Mad Mardigan]

i've tried your suggestion, previously, but the camera behavior did not rotate around the ship.

do you know how i can modify the Camera.dat settings so that the external viewer CAN rotate rather than move for-and-aft?
:Kaleun_Salute:

Just a thought here... can't you use the free roam camera, or do you have it set up to not use that means to view things while you're playing.?

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

Just a thought here... can't you use the free roam camera, or do you have it set up to not use that means to view things while you're playing.?

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

we are using different words for the same function.

> key or < key allows visual of your boat from the starboard side.
use of the arrow keys only allows movement left and right or in naval terms, fore and aft.

[mikesn9]

It also seems odd here, that when the boat was run over port side, the starboard tubes were damaged.
Anyone else catch that? On my boat everything starboard had an odd number assigned to it, port side an even number.

[KaleunMarco]

It also seems odd here, that when the boat was run over port side, the starboard tubes were damaged.
Anyone else catch that? On my boat everything starboard had an odd number assigned to it, port side an even number.
you are thinking US Navy.
you need to think like a Czech programmer.
:D
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Mad Mardigan]

we are using different words for the same function.

> key or < key allows visual of your boat from the starboard side.
use of the arrow keys only allows movement left and right or in naval terms, fore and aft.

:hmmm:

Yeah, that would be to get a look see at units 1 at a time cam set up. I remember once upon a time, of using that 1 to actually do a 360 spin view around your ship aka sub.... nowadays, it seems the view usage you mentioned, only allows for a left to right, or vise versa view of the sub or target from 1 side only. :o

I miss being able to do a 360 spin around My sub to inspect the damages taken by Me.. or a target ship... :yep:

Any way... enough reminiscing..

The 1, I was referring to, is the cam control select hot keyed to the F12 key. Which, after selecting that cam view... can be controlled by the up, down, right, left arrow keys.. that is, if your keyboard has those.. I know & have seen some keyboards that did NOT have them available...

This cam set up allows you to free roam all over the in game world. Otherwise referred to, (as far as I know of it, that is...)as External camera, which in the options menu before starting a career, can be set to off or left on.. as the user sees fit to have that set.

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

:hmmm:

Yeah, that would be to get a look see at units 1 at a time cam set up. I remember once upon a time, of using that 1 to actually do a 360 spin view around your ship aka sub.... nowadays, it seems the view usage you mentioned, only allows for a left to right, or vise versa view of the sub or target from 1 side only. :o

I miss being able to do a 360 spin around My sub to inspect the damages taken by Me.. or a target ship... :yep:

Any way... enough reminiscing..

The 1, I was referring to, is the cam control select hot keyed to the F12 key. Which, after selecting that cam view... can be controlled by the up, down, right, left arrow keys.. that is, if your keyboard has those.. I know & have seen some keyboards that did NOT have them available...

This cam set up allows you to free roam all over the in game world. Otherwise referred to, (as far as I know of it, that is...)as External camera, which in the options menu before starting a career, can be set to off or left on.. as the user sees fit to have that set.

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:
ok, i tried F12 and yes, combining mouse and arrow key i can rotate around the boat but only when surfaced. when we submerge, i cannot rotate the view around the boat.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Mad Mardigan]

ok, i tried F12 and yes, combining mouse and arrow key i can rotate around the boat but only when surfaced. when we submerge, i cannot rotate the view around the boat.

:Kaleun_Salute:

:06: :hmmm:

Odd, to say the least, indeed...

My selecting that view (F12 external cam view) I can move all about any where, even if the sub is submerged... am at a loss as to why you are not able to do the same with looking at your sub so as to see if the bow tube doors are damaged... only thing I can think of, hate saying it :oops: ... but, sounds like you may have to do a delete & reinstall of the game... unless someone else may know of a means to fix the cam's without having to go that route.

Hope you can have someone to do so... unfortunately am fresh out of ideas... Sorry...

If you end up having to do a uninstall & reinstall, I feel your pain on that.. knowing the number of times I've had to for not only games, to get them working right due to some messed up update/something messing up in the guts of it, to having to reinstall the Op system of My computers from time to time.. for various reasons... it ain't fun to do, but.. sometimes is a necessary evil... :yep:

All I can say is best of luck to you on this issue...

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

:06: :hmmm:

Odd, to say the least, indeed...

My selecting that view (F12 external cam view) I can move all about any where, even if the sub is submerged... am at a loss as to why you are not able to do the same with looking at your sub so as to see if the bow tube doors are damaged... only thing I can think of, hate saying it :oops: ... but, sounds like you may have to do a delete & reinstall of the game... unless someone else may know of a means to fix the cam's without having to go that route.

Hope you can have someone to do so... unfortunately am fresh out of ideas... Sorry...
M. M.

ok...i have been simmering/seething on this damn issue, so i re-loaded the savegame from this mission and began noodling (PB term).

i found that i AM able to view the boat's exterior while underwater. it took some non-intuitive click-and-drag movements, and i doubt that i could repeat it, but i was able to some a couple of pretty good looks at the exterior of the forward section.
as you can see there is no visible damage, unlike the 4 inch deck gun which was also damaged and repaired and is working but droops downward when not in use. i also noticed for the first time what my lookouts who were injured and repaired also droop on a regular cycle.

as you can see, no noticeable damage.

Port side
https://i.ibb.co/yQz1rtW/SH4-Img-2020-08-20-12-09-56-986.png

Starboard side
https://i.ibb.co/LQYV6fN/SH4-Img-2020-08-20-13-35-15-093.png

Results of attempting to fire tubes on each side.
https://i.ibb.co/vqTxDk7/SH4-Img-2020-08-20-12-10-32-886.png

Status of equipment
https://i.ibb.co/zQyhVpM/SH4-Img-2020-08-20-12-11-37-365.png

[ETR3(SS)]

So... in their continuing effort to confuse confound and befuddle, along with out-and-out "fixing" things, they hid the door damage in the SubName.upc file, and did not include that on the SubName interior screen, nor in the UPCUnitsData folder files... lol

@ ETR3(SS), can a listing for the doors and rudder be added to the Equipment and Weapons upc files, such that they then list on the submarine's "Subsystems" tab itself, or are we stuck with unidentifiable exterior damage in the SubName.upc file, as you show?... My guess is that the "ID" for that is already set internally to the game, and cannot be added to. Thanks. :salute:

so, a quick fix would be to modify the zone for this item in zones.cfg to Destructible=No?
then work on what PB suggests, which is to separate the doors from the tube.
thanks!
:Kaleun_Salute:Going to address both responses here. From a gameplay pov setting to Destructible=No is the quick fix and requires no further action. From a realism pov, it makes sense to leave it as is. In order to launch a torpedo you have to open the shutter doors. If those doors are damaged to the point they can't open or shut, then that tube is effectively out of commission until you can be dry docked for repairs. That's my interpretation of why that specifically was set up that way in game. Now you could move the damage zone from the shutter door to the muzzle door, but the problem with that is if your muzzle door is destroyed again you can't use that tube. You wouldn't be able to unload a torpedo in the tube because you couldn't drain the water out.

you are thinking US Navy.
you need to think like a Czech programmer.
:D
:Kaleun_Salute:Romanian. Romanian programmers. :03:

[ETR3(SS)]

ok...i have been simmering/seething on this damn issue, so i re-loaded the savegame from this mission and began noodling (PB term).

i found that i AM able to view the boat's exterior while underwater. it took some non-intuitive click-and-drag movements, and i doubt that i could repeat it, but i was able to some a couple of pretty good looks at the exterior of the forward section.
as you can see there is no visible damage, unlike the 4 inch deck gun which was also damaged and repaired and is working but droops downward when not in use. i also noticed for the first time what my lookouts who were injured and repaired also droop on a regular cycle.

as you can see, no noticeable damage.

Port side


Starboard side


Results of attempting to fire tubes on each side.


Status of equipment
Can't quite say there's no noticeable damage as I can't see any of the shutter doors port or starboard. The muzzle doors are visible, but they're not linked to the damage zones.

[KaleunMarco]

Can't quite say there's no noticeable damage as I can't see any of the shutter doors port or starboard. The muzzle doors are visible, but they're not linked to the damage zones.

can't quite visualize shutter door vs muzzle door.
i lifted this from a wiki.
i realize that some systems used compressed air to eject the weapon vs water but the general idea is still common to torpedo tube systems.
https://i.ibb.co/DWq1bfh/image.png

[ETR3(SS)]

Shutter doors are a fairing to reduce drag and streamline the hull form when not in the process of launching torpedoes. The round door visible in your screenshot is the muzzle door. My internet is crappy right now so I can't upload a screenshot anywhere. But if you start a new mission and use the external camera you can see the shutter door open before the muzzle door when you order a tube opened.

[KaleunMarco]

Shutter doors are a fairing to reduce drag and streamline the hull form when not in the process of launching torpedoes. The round door visible in your screenshot is the muzzle door. My internet is crappy right now so I can't upload a screenshot anywhere. But if you start a new mission and use the external camera you can see the shutter door open before the muzzle door when you order a tube opened.

so the shutters are the outer doors and the muzzle door are an inner door?

[ETR3(SS)]

so the shutters are the outer doors and the muzzle door are an inner door?
External to the pressure hull, yes. Reference this USN Manual: https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/tubes/chap3.htm

[Col7777]

@Marco.

To get the rotation back on the camera, I had that a while ago and asked on here so I found it out myself.

On the stock game go to Data/Library. Scroll down to the Camera file and copy it.
In the game you are playing if you look in the Data/Library you will see the camera file is something like 41 or 42kb, the stock one is 32kb.

Delete the the 42kb file and paste in the 32kb file and all with be well.

This also works in SH3 as well.

Col.

[KaleunMarco]

@Marco.

To get the rotation back on the camera, I had that a while ago and asked on here so I found it out myself.

On the stock game go to Data/Library. Scroll down to the Camera file and copy it.
In the game you are playing if you look in the Data/Library you will see the camera file is something like 41 or 42kb, the stock one is 32kb.

Delete the the 42kb file and paste in the 32kb file and all with be well.

This also works in SH3 as well.

Col.
thank you for that but i cannot do that due to other changes in Camera.Dat from the mod-set I am using.

it would be instructive to know which parameters within Camera.dat control the external camera. i have inspected Camera.dat and compared the TMO-version to the Stock-version and i cannot see the big difference in values. therefore, the critical value(s) must be subtle...or somewhere else.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

Can't quite say there's no noticeable damage as I can't see any of the shutter doors port or starboard. The muzzle doors are visible, but they're not linked to the damage zones.

after further review, you are correct: the shutters door condition/performance and the muzzle door condition/performance are linked.
Damaged Boat Exterior. Shutter doors are not visible. Muzzle doors will not move when activated (Q-key).
https://i.ibb.co/yQz1rtW/SH4-Img-2020-08-20-12-09-56-986.png

Repaired Boat in-port. Shutter doors are visible. Muzzle doors move when activated.
https://i.ibb.co/gjKDxZJ/SH4-Img-2020-08-22-10-26-03-046.png

now that i know what to look for, i agree with you that either the shutter doors or the muzzle doors were destroyed and took the "other" door with it.
thank you for your help in understanding what SH4 does in this situation!
:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

Now, if there was just a way to have that show on the Damage screen... It would have to be "muzzle door" or "shutter door", but a muzzle door / shutter door combined into an "External Torpedo Tubes Door(s) Damaged"...

[KaleunMarco]

Now, if there was just a way to have that show on the Damage screen... It would have to be "muzzle door" or "shutter door", but a muzzle door / shutter door combined into an "External Torpedo Tubes Door(s) Damaged"...

ok....so what does it take to get a "part" listed on the Damage screen?
clearly, mod can affect it because i have seen the Ice Cream Machine appear and that was not a part in Stock.

[ETR3(SS)]

ok....so what does it take to get a "part" listed on the Damage screen?
clearly, mod can affect it because i have seen the Ice Cream Machine appear and that was not a part in Stock.The ice cream machine was in stock, but hidden in a way.

[ETR3(SS)]

Now, if there was just a way to have that show on the Damage screen... It would have to be "muzzle door" or "shutter door", but a muzzle door / shutter door combined into an "External Torpedo Tubes Door(s) Damaged"...
IRL they should be linked together such that opening the muzzle door also opens the shutter door at the same time. I'll fiddle around with the game and see what kind of results I can get from it.

[KaleunMarco]

IRL they should be linked together such that opening the muzzle door also opens the shutter door at the same time. I'll fiddle around with the game and see what kind of results I can get from it.

sounds great.:Kaleun_Applaud:

do you know how to make a piece equipment appear on the damage screen?

[ETR3(SS)]

sounds great.:Kaleun_Applaud:

do you know how to make a piece equipment appear on the damage screen?
Yes, I've done it on my nuc sub mods.

[KaleunMarco]

Yes, I've done it on my nuc sub mods.

great.
can you share how you did it here or send me a PM with the instructions?
please.