Patrol technique SH4?

[holohw]

when given a patrol area and the radius do you guys just set search patterns or just go around in circles for the alotted time or do you just sit still? Doesnt seem that in real life a submarine would patrol in circles for 96hrs. Id assume a commander would be given an area but not a particular radius to stay within?

[Jimbuna]

Moved to more appropriate area.

[KaleunMarco]

when given a patrol area and the radius do you guys just set search patterns or just go around in circles for the alotted time or do you just sit still? Doesnt seem that in real life a submarine would patrol in circles for 96hrs. Id assume a commander would be given an area but not a particular radius to stay within?

patrol until you find a shipping lane and then feast on it.

Read Run Silent, Run Deep by Ned Beach.
Read Clear the Bridge! by Dick O'Kane.
Read Silent Victory by Clay Blair.
besides being very entertaining, the books offer very real advice on how to command a submarine in time of war...even if it is simulated. :03:
good luck.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[XenonSurf]

Don't move your sub too much, it only depletes fuel, and don't go into straits but stay just outside of them to increase your contact chances.
Going into a strait when you think a lot of ships can pass it is not only dangerous for you because of less maneuvering possibility against escorts who may even trap you coming from both sides of the strait, but it will also deny you to detect those ships which are outside (additionally, the landscape may limit your radar and sonar), so better be outside, you won't miss the ships coming out and you will spot more ships that want to go in.

And don't move too much unless you want to intercept a contact which you get from a radio report. This will be difficult if the contact is far away because the data you get in the report will not stay as is, ships will change their general course at some point (unknown to you). Always make a good guess where a convoy is heading to, which port, which strait etc. Also be aware that most task forces will be faster than your sub, you only have 1 chance to get in good position for firing.

A so-called 'search pattern' is only useful to do for an area in which you know for sure a convoy or ship is transiting, it's not useful to do to make chance contacts, you can then as well stop your engines and wait.

US subs can make sonar detection of ships while on the surface, this is greatly exagerated in SH4 and doesn't reflect reality, but it works, meaning you don't need to dive to listen for possible contacts lol...


I hope these ideas heip,
XS

[jimmbbo]

Sorta similar to Xenonsurf, on the time controlled patrol missions I tend to park the boat in the 50 mile zone unless near a known shipping area then I'll move toward them and park the boat as close as possible while remaining within the patrol zone to run out the 48 hour clock, using TC in target poor areas.

After accepting a seek and destroy mission, I head towards the nearest shipping lanes then zigzag across them at low speed. Since the criteria is tonnage sunk in these missions, there is a great deal of latitude as to where the patrol is completed. Don't know if the game is designed this way, but have never been admonished nor penalized for really stretching the definition of the search area.

Good hunting!
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Havan_IronOak]

I understand that in the stock game, many of the areas that were assigned were pretty poor choices to patrol so I guess there's some realism there.

I'm running FotRSU and it allows a larger radius for your patrol area (130 nm?) After a number of patrols out of Cavite, Surabaya and Freemantle, I transferred to Pearl.



My first patrol out of Pearl (March 6 1943) has me patrolling the area immediately outside Manila Bay. My Patrol area started North of the mouth of Subic Bay and extended south as far as Mindanao.



https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2141816063


This is the first boat that I've had where I really understood how to get the SJ Radar to work right. It's my absolute "luckiest" patrol to date. Haven't been in area for 5 days yet and have sunk 9 ships totaling over 90,000 tons.

I generally do follow a search pattern of sorts trying to cross as many of the historical convoy routes as possible at 2/3rds speed during the night and 1/3rd speed through the day (much of which is submerged) generally 10 minutes at a time while airplanes are within 6 nm. before returning to radar depth and then surfacing.

I'm pretty sure that by moving about a bit you can expand the effective area that you're covering and that does increase the odds of encounters.

I try to concentrate on choke points and pass those as often as possible. Not all are this lucky e.g. after patrolling an area SE of Taipei I tried to interdict two convoy routes north East of there on a free range mission. No luck.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2141809826

[XenonSurf]

Also avoid shallow waters like the plague. In SH4, the whitest zones on the map are shallow with only 48-55 feet deep from what I could see, meaning that even if there is no risk to run aground at depth < 20 (they have taken this risk out for the pacific theater in SH4 I think, but not sure), you are visible after diving for all trained escorts and also for planes which you then must attack instead of diving (yeah they see you underwater in clear weather and calm sea).


There are usually 3 or 4 depth zones:

Blue zone with > 1000 feet deep.
greyish zone with 300-1000 which is still fine;
Not always: Bright grey zone up to 250 feet, can be fine against a single escort only.
Bright white zone with less than 60 feet deep which you should avoid at day and pass quickly during night only.


Mission mechanics:
In FOTRSU, I think missions and their operation areas work this way: you can leave the mission area to sink ships but you must stay in total within the circle for the time of patrol days requested, for example if you are requested to patrol 5 days in your area (which is within the circle) you can stay 2 days in the circle, then leave it and return, then patrol 3 days in the circle after which you get a message for the mission completed. You are then free to do what you want until you decide to hit the 'Report Status' button, which will get a new mission. Don't press that button if you decide to return to port! Sitll I'm not 100% sure it works that way, but that's what I've seen during my last longer patrol. In all cases, you get renown points for every ship you sink, in your patrol area or not.



XS

[jimmbbo]

Also avoid shallow waters like the plague.
There are usually 3 or 4 depth zones:
Blue zone with > 1000 feet deep.
greyish zone with 300-1000 which is still fine;
Not always: Bright grey zone up to 250 feet, can be fine against a single escort only.
Bright white zone with less than 60 feet deep which you should avoid at day and pass quickly during night only.
XS

+1 on shallow water patrols... If assigned a 48 hour stint in the "Jawa" Sea or the SW Yellow Sea, I'll find a location with at least 200 ft depth if possible and TC the assignment away on the surface, diving if needed.

I only attack convoys if I have at least 300 ft depth and an exit route with at least that depth available.

I prefer to have at least 100 ft "chart depth" to attack unescorted merchantmen, but a juicy target may draw me in for the attack if I can maintain periscope depth.

FWIW, on harbor attacks or photo missions, I have never run aground at periscope depth, albeit with single digit depth to keel numbers

[3catcircus]

Wait? You guys just sit idle? I normally pick a promising spot inside the patrol zone and tool along at A1/3 on the surface at night and the dive during the day - running in close to populated areas and back out.

The challenge is not being impatient and bumping up TC past 128. Instant I do that, it seems I then run into a contact...

[XenonSurf]

Wait? You guys just sit idle? I normally pick a promising spot inside the patrol zone and tool along at A1/3 on the surface at night and the dive during the day - running in close to populated areas and back out.

The challenge is not being impatient and bumping up TC past 128. Instant I do that, it seems I then run into a contact...


My answer above may suggest that I'm mostly 'waiting' as you say, but that's not what I do all the time. I certainly move in search patterns on routes that lead towards a strait or important port etc.
The FOTRSU or TMO mod provide a chart with historical routes (if you launch the radio) which will certainly increase your contact chances, here 2 comments about it:

- You are not supposed to know about these historical routes, I think headquaters and skippers had a good guess at that time during the war, but these charts were drawn after the war where all convoy routes were known. If you play with realism in mind, better don't look at these charts too often but make your own guesses about possible routes followed by convoys.

- If you use these charts you don't want to 'stay still' but move in search patterns on these routes to increase your contact chances, but approaching a port or strait I find it better to place at some strategic point outside and wait for some time.


Cheers,
XS

[Mios 4Me]

In areas of heavy air cover, I sit tight at 90 meters during the day, then explore at night. If it's an open ocean area, I wander around until I find a shipping lane. If it's somewhat restricted, like part of Convoy College, for example, I run short search patterns perpendicular to the suspected lanes, keeping the radar detection ranges in mind to maintain a small amount of overlap.

I've had very good results haunting larger straits, such as Tsugaru and Makassar. The SBS has a high pucker factor when Kurita comes to call; I usually opt instead for the point where the Sibuyan Sea narrows down on the way to the SBS.

I detest the shallow water assignments like Jawa Sea and only engage with Mark 16s from 4000 meters plus. As soon as the salvo is launched, I'm reversing away as fast as possible without giving away my position. Tried it once with a TF...once...and survived, but it was a near run thing. I wound up reversing at full speed for 20 km while firing DTT shots at charging escorts as fast as they could be loaded.

[jimmbbo]

Wait? You guys just sit idle? I normally pick a promising spot inside the patrol zone and tool along at A1/3 on the surface at night and the dive during the day - running in close to populated areas and back out.



Early in the game, fuel is a scarce resource and trips from Pearl to Honshu are right at the edge of the boat's range, with minimal extra... In that instance, I'd prefer to save fuel for a high speed run to intercept a convoy in my too-slow boat rather than patrolling a barren area seeking a low probability target. Proximity to the shipping lanes is a plus, making parking close to them more successful, but in low probability areas, IMO using precious fuel isn't worth it.

FIMO spending fuel in target rich zones is important with RTB for another mission being #1 on the Hit Parade...

Later in the game with better boats, better sensors and trained engine room crews adding range to the tanks, I have more latitude and will spend fuel in longer range searches, but still lay low when in shallow water or in low probability zones.
An interesting side note is that patrolling target rich environments either along the E/SE coast of the Home Islands or in the area around Rabaul is that I usually run out of torpedoes with 60ish% fuel remaining, often allowing a high speed RTB to replenish :D
If hunting around Rabaul using Tulagi for refit often provides some low hanging fruit running through The Slot, and a harbor raid at Honiara adds a bit of fun :smug:

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[KaleunMarco]

Tried it once with a TF...once...and survived, but it was a near run thing. I wound up reversing at full speed for 20 km while firing DTT shots at charging escorts as fast as they could be loaded.

ok, i'll bite.
what is a DTT shot?:hmmm:

[propbeanie]

Marco! "Down The Throat"!

[Col7777]

When you select a mission and you go to the area you are supposed to search in you find the target/s you are supposed to sink, now if you wonder off outside that area and go searching you find other targets.

Those other targets could be a single ship to a large convoy, so who puts them there, not the guy who scripted the mission, he only scripted the ships in the area you were assigned, so are they triggered?

It is mentioned above if you go in time excel that seems to generate a target, so this is my question does that trigger contacts?
The reason I ask is you could do a simple mission and place the sub anywhere and go in time excel and you will/should get a target, or will I?

Col.

[Havan_IronOak]

...

It is mentioned above if you go in time excel that seems to generate a target, so this is my question does that trigger contacts?
The reason I ask is you could do a simple mission and place the sub anywhere and go in time excel and you will/should get a target, or will I?

Col.


Pretty sure that engaging time compression does nothing to generate additional ships (other than your being present while additional scripted shipping is released)

I've not explored these aspects of the game yet, but as I understand it there are scripts among the game files that determine when ships are dumped into the Pacific with a set starting position and destination.

[mikesn9]

Pretty sure that engaging time compression does nothing to generate additional ships (other than your being present while additional scripted shipping is released)

I've not explored these aspects of the game yet, but as I understand it there are scripts among the game files that determine when ships are dumped into the Pacific with a set starting position and destination.


From some conversations with the modders, I've learned a little about "spawning"


Ships,convoys, task forces, etc. have certain points and times that they appear. The game cannot handle ALL of everything active at the same time. If you are in a position to cause the ships to spawn, they will. Some (or many perhaps) will not spawn if you are TOO close to their spawning area.


I learned about this on a single mission in TMO. I was supposed to get a supply ship leaving a certain harbor, tried several times, got there in plenty of time, but it never showed up. The problem was I was there lurking before it was time to spawn, and that scenario prevented a spawn if I was closer than 25 Miles. Lurked at 30 Miles, and got it!


Lesson: don't be too close too early.

[KaleunMarco]

When you select a mission and you go to the area you are supposed to search in you find the target/s you are supposed to sink, now if you wonder off outside that area and go searching you find other targets.

Those other targets could be a single ship to a large convoy, so who puts them there, not the guy who scripted the mission, he only scripted the ships in the area you were assigned, so are they triggered?

It is mentioned above if you go in time excel that seems to generate a target, so this is my question does that trigger contacts?
The reason I ask is you could do a simple mission and place the sub anywhere and go in time excel and you will/should get a target, or will I?

Col.

i believe that single missions use the regular convoy and task force files during play.
so, you may meet up with the Mission-scripted ship/convoy and you may meet up with a ship/convoy/task force from Career play.

it would seem from the context of your question that you are having difficulty contacting your target while playing a single mission. if that is true, are you have this difficulty with just one single mission or on several/all single missions? can you share some of the details, please?

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Col7777]

Hi Marco, no difficulty at all, in fact the opposite.

I can go in a mission ignore what I'm supposed to do and go hunting myself, lots of times I find single ships, and sml, med and large convoys popping up.

I'm in a mission now, Photo Recon, I turned to port and was in a shipping lane, found lots of cargo ships and a few navy ships, did a u-turn and found more, I'm still in it, then zooming back on the map there are plenty more popping up.

Edited: I meant Photo Recon mission.

Col.

[Macgregor the Hammer]

patrol until you find a shipping lane and then feast on it.

Read Run Silent, Run Deep by Ned Beach.
Read Clear the Bridge! by Dick O'Kane.
Read Silent Victory by Clay Blair.
besides being very entertaining, the books offer very real advice on how to command a submarine in time of war...even if it is simulated. :03:
good luck.
:Kaleun_Salute:

Excellent reading list for patrol and tactic techniques! You might want to add 'Thunder Below!' and 'USS Seawolf' :up:

[Col7777]

On this subject, I tried what I posted above about placing myself somewhere and activating the time excel, even did a tour around but not a single ship.
So that idea seemed to be out of the window lol.

Is there a way to generate targets without having to script them in a mission.
I'm not familiar with the workings of the mission editor, what does the Trigger and Radius do?

Col.

[KaleunMarco]

Is there a way to generate targets without having to script them in a mission.
I'm not familiar with the workings of the mission editor, what does the Trigger and Radius do?
Col.

no idea what they do.

HOWEVER, if you are using the ME (mission editor), why not open the various enemy convoy layer files (\data\campaign\.mis) and check out the convoy shipping lanes? clearly, this takes the mystique out of the game, but since you clearly frustrated with the lack of game-activity, perhaps this perusal behind-the-curtain, so to speak, will be enough to get you on your way.

it is my concerted opinion, unless you are adept at SH4 modding, that you take great pains to NOT change these dotMIS files. Doing so can and will screw up your installation requiring you to do a complete de-install/re-install.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Col7777]

Thanks Marco, I have a few installations of SH so this one I'm messing around with.

What I wanted was to get more in Europe than Asia, so it looks like I may have to script the mission/s myself in that area, unless someone knows a way or can point to some missions.

Col.

[KaleunMarco]

Thanks Marco, I have a few installations of SH so this one I'm messing around with.

What I wanted was to get more in Europe than Asia, so it looks like I may have to script the mission/s myself in that area, unless someone knows a way or can point to some missions.

Col.
yes, i understand your goal.
your mission selection is predicated on your flotilla and base.
i suspect that the mission from Lorient to Bali and back was an aberration but it was probably caused by the fact that your flot is somehow connected to the asian bases.
you can always change your mission while in port....manually of course.
it is in the CareerTrack.upc file. look for PlayerCurrentObjectives=IDnnn.
good luck.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Armistead]

Depends what you're after. If you get a zone, most use to just go sit in it and TC until mission completed and then go to their favorite hunting zones. Just sit in it and TC, if something comes through the best sensor value you will notice TC lag, just go check sonar yourself {sonarman will only call out existing parameters} while you can hear to the limits of best equip all game.
Mods differ as far as traffic from RSRD that is historical, so it's just knowing where to be historically. Mods like TMO generate groups more random but include some historical TF, etc. . Stock sucks, don't play it.
I played TMO RSRD mostly when I played, tho I added a lot more random traffic to RSRD, but it's not the same typical way you add traffic.