There goes Hong Kong

[Rockstar]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-22/cornered-china-dares-trump-to-hit-back-with-hong-kong-power-grab?srnd=premium-asia


“Xi feels threatened, the leadership feels threatened -- this is a crisis,” said David Zweig, an emeritus professor at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and director of Transnational China Consulting Ltd. “This is, ‘We’re not going to give an inch, we’re going to tighten up, and Hong Kong’s national security as a potential subversive center is greater than its economic value.’”

[Aktungbby]

THEY GET HONG KONG, THEY'LL GO FOR TAIWAN NEXT....METHINKS WERE IN WWIII AND DON'T KNOW IT YET.
The world by 2049 will be defined by the realization of Chinese power. China will be the world’s greatest economic and political force, including alliances and global presence. While its power will make it the dominant state in international politics, the central issue is how China will use its power. Will China join the liberal world order or will it transform Western rules, norms, and institutions?
China’s grand strategic vision is primacy — China will and should be the dominant force in international politics. China’s vision is defined by Xi Jinping’s phrase “One World, One Dream,” which is a modern form of tianxia, or “all under heaven.” This concept serves as the foundation of China’s imperial ideology — the Chinese conception of how the world should be ordered.
The concept of “all under heaven” is the genesis of the Chinese worldview (https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Under-Heavens-Chinas-Global/dp/0385353324) with respect to how China ought to be ruled, its position in international politics, and the subordinate role required of other states. It implies, first, an ethnic Han polity, which is inherently authoritarian. Second, it requires that a single powerful monarch, the Chinese emperor (“Son of Heaven”) should rule the entire civilized world — which by definition should be unified under the emperor’s control so that disorder and chaos may be avoided, and reason and just rule may triumph https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/the-world-according-to-china/ (https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/the-world-according-to-china/) THE KAISER'S "SEEKING GERMANY'S PLACE IN THE SUN" AND THE 35 YEAR WAR THAT FOLLOWED, RUINING THE 20TH CENTURY(WWI & WWII AS ONE CONFLICT) COMES TO MIND...:hmmm:

[Rockstar]

The Thucydides Trap: Are the U.S. and China Headed for War?

In 12 of 16 past cases in which a rising power has confronted a ruling power, the result has been bloodshed.


https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/united-states-china-war-thucydides-trap/406756/

https://i.imgflip.com/1ejnmr.jpg


https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/09/Case_Chart_graphic1/d7883b7db.png

[Jimbuna]

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has condemned China's plan to impose a new security law in Hong Kong, calling it a "death knell" for the city's freedoms.

China is seeking to pass a law that would ban "treason, secession, sedition and subversion" in Hong Kong.

Critics say the law would strip Hong Kong of the rights it currently enjoys, that are not seen in mainland China.

Mr Pompeo said the decision to bypass Hong Kong's lawmakers ignores "the will of the people".

"The United States strongly urges Beijing to reconsider its disastrous proposal, abide by its international obligations, and respect Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy, democratic institutions, and civil liberties," Mr Pompeo said in a statement on Friday.

Mr Pompeo's intervention is likely to infuriate the Chinese government, whose relations with the US have been strained recently by disputes over trade and the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52771718

[Skybird]

Anyone here who seriously believed (when the Brits gave JHongkong back to China) that the Chinese would forever stick to their candy-sweet promises?

Honestly said I am surprised that they held themselves back this long.

Its not fair, but Hongkong is doomed. It always was.

Taiwan probably is next. It wants to press for WHO membership "after" the Corona crisis, but the WHO is its archenemy's playground. The Europeans play a very shameful role in it, but the US does not play much better. It only hides its indifference better.

And then there is the SouthChinese Sea.


These crisis have the potential to shake the world. But there are more, but issues like Tibet, beside being genocide, just do not impress the world. Business makes the coins rolling around. Until China starts to dictate terms and conditions.

[mapuc]

As Jim answered me in our Wuhan-thread.

(from my memory)
And who shall make them pay

Which country or countries would be interest in a confrontation with China ?

Markus

[Skybird]

Germany stopping to pay them development aid (yes, we still do that, its true...) and the West stopping to invest in China inj general, cancelling trade treaties, would be two things for a start. Massivbely boosting military defences of neighbpourign states like Phillipines, Vietnam, Japan, Australia. Establishing standing military presences in the SouthChinese Sea. Forcing Western companies to abandopne Chinese production sites. Boycotting Chinese trading goods. Putting diplomatic relations on ice infinitely.

For over four dercades we have played the soft balkl. Nursed thenm, help them growing, transferred know-how, made them strong.

Maybe its finally a clever idea to stop all these follies? If not some political idiot would immediately start yelling again that this would be "provoking" to them, and an affront, and a financial loss...?! And starting to build hurldes to the Chinese taking over Africa?

The problems we have with China today, to major shares have been fostered and grown by ourselves. and nthat includes America AND Europe.


I must admit that years ago I woke to the unpleasant reality a bit late, too. But at least finally I did woke up. Most of the West still seems to want sleeping.

[Rockstar]

As Jim answered me in our Wuhan-thread.

(from my memory)
And who shall make them pay

Which country or countries would be interest in a confrontation with China ?

Markus




I posted an article earlier in another topic. Which said Greece was relieving U.S. missile defense crews in Saudi Arabia. It then alluded to the idea we might be moving our crews/assets to the Pacific.

[Skybird]

Its through their "parliament". So, autonomous Hong Kong now is history, practically. The top godfather Xing will not stop it.

Interestingly, not a word on it in most of the German press. The Germans. Well.

Since there is no serious will displayed by the West to call China out over this, and the West already fell back from their "land taking" in the south chinese sea, and their haughty arrogant threats towards Australia, Vietnam and Japan also have not triggered a clear reaction by the West, I think the signal of Hong Kong now is that it is only a question of time before they turn against Taiwan.

With all violence as needed.

Five years, ten years, I dont know. But it will happen. The Chinese have learned since decades now that nobody will dare to stand up in their way.

Meanwhile the Germans warn against reversing globalisation and that they want to stick to their illusory "strategic partnership" with China. As if China takes Germany serious, or would need to. They are beyond that point where they needed to, since many years.

Europe's China-policy always was a most stupid and clueless one. America's as well. Reminds of the tale of the sorcerer's apprentices.

[Onkel Neal]

My simplistic (as usual) solution: all we need to do is stop trade with China cold. No more Chinese goods coming in to the country, period. Start off with federal guarantees that new companies investing in American/Canadian factories will have market subsidies and be shielded from foreign competition for 4 years. If we switch our economy over to producing the goods needed for public consumption, China will be back to a third world country.

[Catfish]

^ i guess what Skybird and Neal propose is already too late, they build their own processors and smartphones, and are in a lot of ways ahead of "the west". Sure, in capitalism they need to sell their stuff, on the other hand do they? A communist dictatorship like that? Maybe they come up with another solution..

The least thing we can do is producing own medicine and other important basic stuff, this imho includes an entirely "western" 5G network. And tighten the srews of getting our technology robbed and copied.. they have copied a whole VW car factory without the company's knowledge, and it works.

[Skybird]

Yes, I see it like Neal a bit. But the Germans with their extreme export orientation and very heavy investments in China will not do it, even less so since Covid 19 has worked as a catalyst to bring to light the inherent weakness of the German eocnomy: that Germany always consdered its export-driven model a strength while in fatc this dependecny is a wekaness and vulnerability. Germany also hate-kills its key industry: cars, first prefering electrification, then crashing the Diese,l then demonising all gasoline driven cars in general. And all the entrepreneurs who spend mone yin China to help them getting knbpoweldge transferred to them sdo that the ybecome competetive, will demand that these investements are not ust written off. Whcih woudl again be a damage to the tx payer, too.

Catfish also is right. The Chinese in many areas are no longer just second or third grade quality producers. In computers, but also othe rbranches, they set the trends, they rival for the top ranks in yearly innovations in tehcnoloigy in general, in medicine. Catfish points at something correct: China doe sno longer benefit from innovaitons made by foreign nations/eocnomies, but it drives innovations. And once again the Us is better suited to confront this, if it wants, than the EU states. Its universities and its technological corproations loike Amazon, FV, Goodle, Apple etc, are maybe capable to face confrontation with chinese and even rigged competetion: what ahs Europe here? SAP maybe, but then nothing, and the certain "Excellence" universities are internationally - sorry, more or less irrelevant.

The only otpion the Eu states seem to have is: making big-mouthed words and appealing to the Chinese not being so compettiotve. I know how this will end.

And I did not even mention to compare European and American banks. Look at the list of the biggest 100 baks in the world, and then you know what role the Europeans play in this sector: none you want to base your fate on. Plus the Euro collapsing in slo-mo.

Maybe some Europeans know what should be done. Its just that the EU now is so dependent and weak that it cannot do them. Look at the big wonderplan Super-Uschi has unveiled, 750 billion Euros for post-Corona rebuilding. Its just thatthat the EU'S share of that, 250 bn, bases on tax schemes that do not even exist and that are so quastionable that legal experts and economy experts doubt that they ever could be turne dinto reality, and that they would work as planned.

Chaising phantoms once again.

If the Chinese have to fear one thing, than it is the Americans. The Europeans are not only harmless in will, but also impotent by ability: financially, economically, culturally, educationally, and militarily anyway.

The French lost their Napoleonic grandesse. The Dutch lost their trading empire. The Brits loost their empire. The Italians lost their glorious Roman past. The Greek their ancient heritage. The Spanish thei rEuropoean dominance and South America. The Germans lost two big wars. And now it is the EU loosing its claim for relevancy. Europe, after three millenia of dramatic and fantastic history, is exhausted, is old, tired, and weak. Play again in some centuries maybe, if the human world still lasts that long. But not in the coming spans of generations. And befiore it gets there, it must survive the Chinese and the Islamic challenge. Both will last for centuries.

[Jimbuna]

My simplistic (as usual) solution: all we need to do is stop trade with China cold. No more Chinese goods coming in to the country, period. Start off with federal guarantees that new companies investing in American/Canadian factories will have market subsidies and be shielded from foreign competition for 4 years. If we switch our economy over to producing the goods needed for public consumption, China will be back to a third world country.

Quite possibly but there are too many greedy business folk in the west who are always looking to maximise profits by buying from the cheapest source.

Only government legislation would have a chance of overcoming that.

[mapuc]

I guess a majority of the people in Hong Kong are hoping the west will help them.

It's China...any help is out of the question...some diplomatically pressure may come..up to a certain level.

Markus

[em2nought]

Hong Kong, Taiwan, and a return to the status quo are probably what was promised to the Chinese by the democrats in exchange for releasing the virus in order to take down Orange Man Bad. They might be jumping the gun a bit because I'm not sure they're gonna take the guy down, although those mail in ballots are distressing in a stolen election sort of way. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Hong Kong, Taiwan, and a return to the status quo are probably what was promised to the Chinese by the democrats :hmmm:


:o Geht's noch...?

Psychologists call that a projection.

If there was a precedence for acting like you imply, then it were the Republicans versus Jimmy Carter, with the Republican side making a deal with Teheran to delay the hostage release until Reagan had won and Carter could not benefit from the release anymore. :03:



https://consortiumnews.com/the-new-october-surprise-series/


The author is no unknown name to me, he was not some dubious backroom writer, but a highly prolific investigative journalist who came to fame with his role in the Iran contra affair.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)



Of course, uncritical worshippers of Reagan and Republicanism absolutely dispise him.

[Mr Quatro]

I am bad :yep:
After you watch this you will never forget it or be the same again

What are the odds of a 90 year old woman just makin this stuff up?

What are the chances of the country she is talking about is Hong Kong?

Another prophet Dimitri Dudman prophesied more than once that America
would go to war with China and then WWIII would start with Russia sneak
attacking the USA to protect China. :o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98EWHidXJE&feature=emb_logo

[mapuc]

Trying to understand the step UK have taken by offer 300,000 of the citizens i HK a citizenship in UK.

HK is not under UK leadership anymore or is it ?

Markus

[Catfish]

:o Geht's noch...?
Psychologists call that a projection. [...]
I would be less polite, but i have stopped answering or commenting to certain posts :haha:
Popcorn reserves are in danger though ..

[Jimbuna]

China is facing mounting criticism over a planned security law for Hong Kong which would make it a crime to undermine Beijing's authority in the territory.

The UK and US said at a private session of the UN Security Council that the law would curtail the city's freedoms.

China, which blocked a formal meeting, warned them to "stop interfering".

Hong Kong's autonomy is guaranteed by the 1997 agreement under which it was returned to China from the UK.

It enjoys some freedoms - of the press and association - unseen in mainland China.

But there are fears the proposed law - which has sparked a wave of anti-mainland protests - could end Hong Kong's unique status.

This week, Britain said that if China went forward with the law, it could offer British National (Overseas) passport holders a path to UK citizenship.

There are 350,000 BNO passport holders in Hong Kong who currently have the right to visit the UK for up to six months without a visa.

On Friday, the UK Home Office confirmed the new rights could be given to up to three million people with BNO status - as long as they applied for and were granted a passport.

China says all BNO passport holders are Chinese nationals, and if the UK changes this practice, it would violate international law.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52852661?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world&link_location=live-reporting-story

[Rockstar]

Trying to understand the step UK have taken by offer 300,000 of the citizens i HK a citizenship in UK.

HK is not under UK leadership anymore or is it ?

Markus

No, Brits gave up on Hong Kong years ago. It has since been part of China, governed by Beijing. Only thing Hong Kong retained after the transfer was a special economic status that allowed their economy to continue "business as usual" rather than change to the current Chinese communist way of doing things. I guess with all the civil unrest in Hong Kong directed at mainland China. Beijing cracked down and seems to have flushed Hong Kong's special economic status down the toilet as a way to quell the riots.

[August]

Not being a real part of China the island of Taiwan is a bit of a different story.

[Jimbuna]

Not being a real part of China the island of Taiwan is a bit of a different story.

The burning question being....would the US act in its defence should it be attacked?

I'm confident they would if it were Japan.

[Skybird]

No, Brits gave up on Hong Kong years ago. It has since been part of China, governed by Beijing. Only thing Hong Kong retained after the transfer was a special economic status that allowed their economy to continue "business as usual" rather than change to the current Chinese communist way of doing things. I guess with all the civil unrest in Hong Kong directed at mainland China. Beijing cracked down and seems to have flushed Hong Kong's special economic status down the toilet as a way to quell the riots.
The sequence of things I recall differently. There was not unrest that made Bejing crack down on Hongkong, but there was China trying to push through new legislation in HongKong allowing mainland secuirty forces and policies to take over huge parts of Hongkongs regional autonomy and freedoms and to have the decisive control. Against this the protests on the streets started. Now the mafiosi in bejing use this resistence as a strawman alibi foro their own violent push as excuse to solve the issue with brute force.

I never lived by the illusion that the autonomy of HongKong would last, I always based on the premisse that Bejing will take over Hongkong and bring it back into its Reich sooner or later. After all the chinese tick quite imperial. Now that it happens its nevertheless sad to see.


If fifteen years ago somebody would have told me that i would one day turn as anti-China and quite hostile to it as I have turned indeed by now, I would not have believed it. Not just because HongKong, however. Their whole totalitarian fascist system to me stands for everything that is evil, and sinister. Its an Orwellian nightmare empire surpassing Orwell by far.

[Jimbuna]

Hong Kong was never really free of Chinese ifluence. I was last there in 77/78 and even then when at the mainland border point I recall walking along a street of shops and on the opposite side you could see Chinese soldiers with fixed bayonets similar to Berlin but without the wall.

[mapuc]

Now I'm a little diffused.

Didn't those demonstration start several month ago when the government in Hong Kong had planned on making/implement some law ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Yes, but the Chinese have had enough of the Hong Kong legislature failing to curb the problem and have now used it as an excuse (imho) to grasp total control of the territory.

[Aktungbby]

Just more practise for upcoming Taiwan, the disputed Indian/Kashmir region, Spratley Islands...all stemming from the unchallenged takeover of Tibet in '59 by a weak indetermined West...:hmmm: the real problem with an overpopulated planet of 8,000,000,000 +- is that 1,400,000,000+- of them are Chinese with a political agenda to be the dominant power on earth-their one-family-one-child policy now strategically discontinued; by every means possible incl. their aggrandizing RBI global policy:ping::ping::ping::x The only real question left is: should I learn Mandrin or Xiang Sino-speke?

[Texas Red]

What really pisses me off is the fact that China is spreading BS about “How all the people in Hong Kong are nationalists” maybe some are, but maybe the majority of people want to have a democratic government.

I just wish we don’t have another Pearl Harbor but on a West Coast city or somewhere else.
Two Pearl Harbors in one century.
I really hope that we don’t go off to war, least I don’t want to have Nuclear War.
Honestly, I agree with Onkel here. We should just stop using China for our economy and then they will go down a notch maybe.

We should do what we did with Japan before WW2 was we just stopped importing or exporting supplies.
We should hope this doesn’t lead to war.

[Catfish]

[...] I agree with Onkel here. We should just stop using China for our economy and then they will go down a notch maybe.
Too late, they copied and stole so much, they are well able to do it all by themseves now. Which of course denies their legend of own innovation and all that.
We should indeed maintain and produce the basic and essential things "ourselves" (meaning the west here), from information exchange to medicine/drugs, and not let openly hostile régimes voluntarily rob us while them pretending to be more advanced.
We can see that e.g when it comes to Corona the chinese way obviously was not the best way to contain a pandemic, let alone it was caused by the very government pretending to be "superior".
They really state that democracy is a thing of the 20ieth century, and that the chinese way is the right way for the future (lmAo). Maybe their own populaion believes that due to the censorship and brainwashing, but it will be hard to convince US.
At least i hope so..

[mapuc]

We should do what we did with Japan before WW2 was we just stopped importing or exporting supplies.
We should hope this doesn’t lead to war.

I could be wrong.

Wouldn't some other countries Like Russia and members of the EU clap their hands if USA does just that..stopped exporting and importing supplies from China.

As they say

"One man dead another man's bread"

Because they would see opportunity to expand their export to China on the cost of USA pulling out.

Markus

[Catfish]

The US pulling out and letting it all free for China is indeed a bad mistake, also for the US. There can be myopic advantages economy-wise, but we (the EU and the UK) will suffer badly in the long run. Not that Trump cares, of course. He is an idiot.

[Skybird]

That we, Europe, suffer form blowbacks here, is our own fault. Nobody forced us to depend on the US so heavily and endlessly, and nobody forced us to sell our vital interests away and to China. We have chosen to be weak and vulnerable for - ideological and econoimcially short-sighted - reasons that we have erratically rated as more important. Now we find that these reasons cannot keep our boat afloat. We have taken it for granted that the US will always be there to bail us out if threat arises. It won't anymore. I rate cyber attacks as acts of war, they are attacks of one nation against anothe rnation. And the US already is our enemy in these regards, it attacks us constantly and tries to fully monitor our decision making, our planning, our intention, our economic stragey - everything. So far for economic interests of theirs mostly. But that can change from one day to the next. All it takes is a secret order at the top.

Our own fault that we are where we are. We have chosen weakness and irrelevance, and mistook speeches and words with power.

The post-war order is done and over. The US is not our friend anymore. The US also is no friendly hegemon anymore. All that is the world of the past. Its over and it wont come back.

We better wake up. And focus on our own local well being and safety and how to protect that against all the others out there, China, Russia and America. We must get indepe3ndent from Ameircna domiannce in the itnernet and the cyberspace. An almost impossible task, but we will remain vulnerable to them as long as we do not become independent from their control of the internet, the electronic media and communiction. In all these rehgards, China, America na dRussia all wage war against all the rest of the world already, espowecially Europe, since Europe is a juicy and weak prey. Instead of wanting to lecture all the rest of the world, we need to realise our wekanesses, and become strong by ourt own means. I do not know if that is possible anymore, the demographic and historic indices are not in our favour. We bite off more than we can chew, if we continue to just depend on words and speeches and appeals and moral commanding. We should keep China away, and throw out of them what alreeady is here. That will need a change in internal European politics that I cannot imagine how to make come true. But we should push the Americans out of Europe as well. As I said, they are no longer our friends. At minimum they are rivals. and 1845 is 75 years ago. A full life cycle of a human being.

I think it would have come this far anyway. Trump only was a catalysator speeding things up a bit. As much as I dispise him - he is not the cause of what goes wrong in the US. He is a the so far resulting, logical symptom. Without the past 30 years or so, Trump today would not have been possible. He is an expression of a long internal degeneration of the political system and the social structures in the US.

[Texas Red]

We have been having a trade war with China I believe for a while and we have just been taking it in the butt, but now we cannot do anything.

If war were to erupt, I think that the battleground will be on Taiwan, maybe even Hong Kong. It's too early to know.

[mapuc]

We have been having a trade war with China I believe for a while and we have just been taking it in the butt, but now we cannot do anything.

If war were to erupt, I think that the battleground will be on Taiwan, maybe even Hong Kong. It's too early to know.

I hope there are no war.

If it does, China has the capability to hit USA, with some of their long range missiles, which can be loaded with conventional.
So even the civilians in USA would suffer in a war.

(My fear is, that USA interprets it as a Nuclear attack)

So let's hope it stay with finger pointing and shouting between Trump and Xi Jinping

Markus

[Skybird]

"America first!" also means: "Why should we sacrifice our ressources and our soldier's lives over Taiwan?" Why risking nuclear escalation with china over Taiwan? The US has retreated from many treaties in the past years, has deeply alienated parts of the ME, all of Europe, and has been provoked many times by China in the past 15-20 years, every time without seriously reacting. The US is not a trustworthy ally anymore. I do not put money on that they would engage in a full scale conventional war over Taiwan. Especially not if you follow the way Trump ticks. The south chinese Sea, that might be something different, but Taiwan under full control of Bejing is nothing that threatens international trade lines and maritime ressource areas.

[Texas Red]

I just cannot stand Trump though. Some of the decisions he makes it sound like it is based on some thought he had while he was eating potato chips in the Oval Office, looking for ways to "Make America Great Again" by pulling out of all major treaties, etc, as Skybird says.

This week, he pulled out of funding for the WHO because he thought that "China was pressuring WHO to downplay the virus." People are saying that it will severely weaken WHO because the US is the biggest funder or whatever to WHO.

Some people say that anything that hurts China will help, but we just need a smarter president tbh.

I agree with mapuc here on this:
So let's hope it stay with finger-pointing and shouting between Trump and Xi Jinping

I'm not really wanting to go to war either, I'm sure that the whole USA feels that way too. But if there is a war, I pray that it isn't a Nuclear War. If there is any type of war, I will still gladly join in and fight for our country as soon as I am old enough. But if China or Russia pulls off another sneak attack, then I am absolutely POSITIVE that we will go to war.

Really these are troubled times we are having here. I'm praying that everyone one of us here on Subsim stays safe. God bless you all....:salute:

[Eisenwurst]

My 2 cents worth :-

I've had a lot of Chinese friends and workmates over the years. Most of them have been good, decent people ( like any other "People" ). I've even had 2 Chinese girlfriends over the years ( I've been told that one still carries a torch for me still after 30 years ).

There's a young lady ( whom I miss very much ) stuck in Shanghai who can't get back to Australia because of border closures and diplomatic "tit for tat".

There's a HUGE groundswell for change in China but they need a charismatic leader to give it focus.

Change will come in China, but it will be from within. The world saw it happen in Eastern Europe. The Chinese people ( not their Government ) are brave, patient, and long suffering. Who can forget "Tank Man".

[Skybird]

Xi is the most powerful leader that they have ever had in modenr times, and he works hard to get his family deeply dug in at the top of the state, forming a new de facto imperial dynasty like the Kims in North Korea. And china has demsbtrate don the Tianmen Plaza that the state is willing to massacres it sown citizens as well if they are disobedient. 30 thousand got killed, secret informations have told us. Add to this the brutality by which the state acts against different thinking. Ethnic minorities.



This is not Eastern Europe. Its far more brutal and far less civilised. And far more people are far more brainwashed anf full-heartly embrace the regime of the corrupt party.



When the peoples congress recently voted for the new Hongkong legislation, the count showed the result with one single oppposing vote saying No. I am certain that that perosn ahs seen his last congress. Maybe even his last New years eve. Since the modern China wa sformed, this congress has not opposed single time what the state heads have proposed. And Chinese people by vast majority (got trained to) like and love this system. Look at the sevrlity ba whcih they follow implementaiton of any new control mechnisms. The new social notes and social reward/sanction point system. The censorship.



I see black regarding China. Its not Poland, its not the GDR. Its much, much worse.

[Skybird]

Think I skip my trip to Hongkong - or China in general - after my postings here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/03/asia/hong-kong-airport-arrests-national-security-intl-hnk/index.html


the legislation, which came into effect late Tuesday,doesn't only clamp down on freedoms at home. It also puts foreign citizens who criticize the Chinese government anywhere in the world at risk of jail if they even set foot in the city -- even if they are just transiting through the airport.
Cowardish EU governments still stay put and silent over Hongkong and try to find a cozy place next to this tyranny that behaves not differently to its regional neighbours and the world like Germany did in the years before and until 1939. The UK raised its voice a bit, but in the end has no teeth impressing anyone in the region anymore.



China has dramatically increased its fleet of coast guard boats and uses these now to even harass fishing boats of other nations within these nations' own 12 miles zone.

The lack of reaction to the events in Hongkong, and the appeasing attitude by Europe towards Chinese criminal role in the Corona information policy, will no doubt have encouraged emperor Xing to give the same kind of treatment to Taiwan sooner or later. I no longer think of a military aggression as one possible scenario amongst others, but see it as a certainty now. Hongkong and western and regional reactions to it taught Bejing that it has nothing to fear from the world.

I am also very certain that the US will not go to war against China over Taiwan. Even more so since the Chinese will shatter the island faster with their rain of missiles than the US could react to that in mobilizing Pazific forces. Its not "if" to me, only "when". Maybe they use Corona as an umbrella to walk under. But Corona is economically difficult for them as well, so possibly it still is years away that they bring Taiwan back home into the Reich by force. With Xing installing his family as the Kim dynasty of China, he can play the long game.


Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. Such acting to me is just a parade. I am quite certain that China is not impressed, but will play the "we are indignent!" card.

[Aktungbby]

Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. Such acting to me is just a parade. I am quite certain that China is not impressed, but will play the "we are indignent!" card. Indeed! business as usual in 'parade' formationhttps://www.onthisday.com/images/photos/great-white-fleet.jpg A variation of the Great White Fleet off to confront the 'yellow peril' :Kaleun_Applaud: Teddy Roosevelt would love it!:arrgh!: https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/yellowterror.jpg

[Skybird]

The German government has finally reacted to the events in Hongkong. It has issued a recommendation for all Germans to practice self-censorship. It said that German must expect to get arrested and trialed on grounds of the new "security" laws if they set foot onto Hongkong soil, evcen if their plane is just landing for refueling or passenger swapping- means you have to expect to get pulled out of the plane even if Hongkong is not your destination, but you are just transiting. Germans should practice self-abstain from criticising China.

Way to go, Germany. You have big experience with such servility towards state authoritarianism , so why not falling back to this your historical expertise once again?


Of course Merkel still babbles of special German-Chinese relations . An of course Germna economy sitll is so stupdi to pump huge amounts of money and know-how to China. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. We should write off all these lost moneys, withdraw from Chian compeltely, and then focus on using all our influential weight inside the EU to block the Chinese out of Europe. TGhe german China-policy was build on naive illusions from beginning on, and now it is is ruins. Nothing worth to be mentooned, no civilizational progess has been achieved. The country is more dangerous now than ever before. And it must not listen and comply anymore. We gave it what it wanted form us, and now it does not really need us anymore, can get along and even surpass us all by itself. Stupid, stupid, stupid.



When I said in a posting above I better should not travel to Hongkong anymore due to the Chinese probably, like the Americans, monitoring and recording all electronic communication, I was not kidding. At no cost I would do it anymore. We see with German citizens criticising Erdoghan from outside Turkey being arrested at will when travelling to Turkey, how real these kinds of threats are.

Also, why would I want to go to and leave my money in a barbaric country like that? I have no business there, and for tourism, there are more comfortable destinations.

[iambecomelife]

My 2 cents worth :-

I've had a lot of Chinese friends and workmates over the years. Most of them have been good, decent people ( like any other "People" ). I've even had 2 Chinese girlfriends over the years ( I've been told that one still carries a torch for me still after 30 years ).

There's a young lady ( whom I miss very much ) stuck in Shanghai who can't get back to Australia because of border closures and diplomatic "tit for tat".

There's a HUGE groundswell for change in China but they need a charismatic leader to give it focus.

Change will come in China, but it will be from within. The world saw it happen in Eastern Europe. The Chinese people ( not their Government ) are brave, patient, and long suffering. Who can forget "Tank Man".

Good insights. I agree that change must come from within; moreover, what leverage can any country - even the US - have when dealing with such a huge nuclear armed power? I had a good Han Chinese friend who told me that, as much as the man in the street there dislikes gov't meddling & corruption, they are still deeply suspicious of US notions of "freedom", "justice" &c. Probably with good reason....look at how atomized and fractious the United States are today. He also said that pro-democracy protesters (like the student demonstrators on the mainland ~ 30 years ago) should not be considered representative of the whole population there.

As Eisenwurst said, I suspect any change will be at their own pace, and from within! Definitely not from US carrier battlegroups.

[mapuc]

Some of the Danish Politicians(those who are in opposition) Demands that we take a standpoints against China.

Yesterday Tibet, today Hong Kong and tomorrow Taiwan. It' time to draw a line in the sand one of these politicians said.

It's so easy to say things when a politician is in opposition to the government and don't have to take serious decision, only thing they have to do in the parliament is to vote for or against laws.

Which country with a full mental health politicians will take on China ??

Markus

[Catfish]

Change may come from within, but how should this be possible with the rising levels of surveillance and this "point" system?
It is not exactly new to China to have such a régime, i doubt anyone remembers better times. They also try to re-educate by force, something they learned in Korea and Vietnam with this brain-washing methods; they are currently trying this out against the Uigurs.
There has been a heavyweight delivery of human hair from China to Germany; it has been sent back, but some expect it may come from the Uigurs.

The german automotive industry says it needs China as a market, for buying cheap electronics and selling cars.
"We" should not buy anything from China as long as Xi Jinping plays the great leader, not that capitalism will follow that idea.
A definite stance on that matter is needed, and i do not mean a forever debate.

[iambecomelife]

Some of the Danish Politicians(those who are in opposition) Demands that we take a standpoints against China.

Yesterday Tibet, today Hong Kong and tomorrow Taiwan. It' time to draw a line in the sand one of these politicians said.

It's so easy to say things when a politician is in opposition to the government and don't have to take serious decision, only thing they have to do in the parliament is to vote for or against laws.

Which country with a full mental health politicians will take on China ??

Markus

Quite true. That also touches on some of my concerns about "human rights" sloganeering in the United States regarding China. Sure, everyone likes to make fine speeches about how China needs to do X Y Z, but what leverage do outside nations (Denmark, the US, anyone) really have? The whole thing smacks of posturing, and a charade.

Here, aside from a few pro-war, militaristic loons - no US citizens are willing to defend Asian "allies" to the last drop of American blood against China.

With respect to individual Chinese? If my friend and his family are representative, it seems like most Chinese have no illusions about their government being noble & pure ... they are cynical about official pronouncements, and Han supremacist propaganda.

It's just that criticism of China in its sphere of influence tends to produce a "rally round the flag" effect. And comments about how the United States and "free" countries don't always have clean hands themselves (I can't argue with them there).


"Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. "

100% correct. Because the US needs to be seen "to be Doing Something." In its own way, this is like another lecture on Tibet, or being nice to the Falun Gong.

[Skybird]

Change may come from within, but how should this be possible with the rising levels of surveillance and this "point" system?
Catfish points at something important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Its perfidity at its best, it makes people censoring themselves, and turns doing so nto a sport. This system is aimed at beign implrmente dnation-wide, and already is very sadvanced. In a documentation about China that was shown earlier this year and where they desc ribed this system ind epth, I got the impression that in the urban areas and big cities especially traditoinally th8inbloing Chiense are very much in favour of it. Certainly the ammount of obedience towards it, is immense already now.

Be compliant, think the correct thoughts, say the right things, do not criticise, even show enthusiasm in government-wanted behaviour rules, and you may buy tickets to travel. Can visit the libary. The gym. Do not applaude during a government parade, get vilified, or behave in a socially not correct manner, and you gets stripped of these rights and "priviliges", you cannot buy tickets for the train, can not travel to meet your family. People go to state offices like to a bank, and at the counter ask for their score standing, and trade score points for priviliges like doing some bank business.

And like in 1984, it is not enough to just act as being ordered, or just dopign something in order to please the master - you must be convinced of it, and you must love to do so. The state and you have to become one.

This is not some dystopic fantasy - it already is in place in parts of Bejing and other locations, and works right now while I type this. The states wants to bring it to all the country, and it works on accieving that. And it will.

Gleichschaltung.

Its mental streamlining like this that aims at emiminating any space in thinking for alternative opinion. The result will be a people that, like the north Koreans, has lost the ability to think of alternatives, or being critical or even just distanced to the or neutral on the government. Before anyone now thinks he must claim that this is too bad as if it could be true, let me remind you that during the cultural revolution they did the same mission already, but by other means thta were quite barbaric, inhumane and murderous, and that currently they hold the Uigures in KZs and force them to either get brainwashed and reeducated to form another identity and delete their own, or to break and die. By definition of the anti-genocide charta, it is genocide, something that the Chinese are seriously engaged in with regard to around 60 minorities, Tibetans being the most famous exmaple. Not that the fame has done anything ever for the Tibetans.

Add to this the military bullyin g and intidmating of all coutnries in the region, and their massive military buildup, the establishing of a Führer cult at the state's top and the growing nationalism, and you shoud see the parrallels to Germany pre-Septembre 1939. Only that today there is not just one but millions of Chamberlains in the West.


P.S. Edit:

In closed psychiatries they sometimes work with this principle, too. Patient get "paid" out toy money if they help in group work, comply with staff orders, take their drugs, behave, do not turn aggressive, are accessible and actrive in group therapy sessions. These tokens they can then barter for TV minutes and programs, access to game boxes and music instruments, and such things. Very effective.

The other psycho-manipulative principle at work here, is nudging, just maxed out to XXXL format. Nudging is a recommended principle in both German Merkel politics (Merkel once revealed she is a fan of it), and EU politics.


The Chinese regime is trying to construct itself a kind of population as it wants to own one. A designer population, so to speak.

[mapuc]

Quite true. That also touches on some of my concerns about "human rights" sloganeering in the United States regarding China. Sure, everyone likes to make fine speeches about how China needs to do X Y Z, but what leverage do outside nations (Denmark, the US, anyone) really have? The whole thing smacks of posturing, and a charade.

Here, aside from a few pro-war, militaristic loons - no US citizens are willing to defend Asian "allies" to the last drop of American blood against China.

With respect to individual Chinese? If my friend and his family are representative, it seems like most Chinese have no illusions about their government being noble & pure ... they are cynical about official pronouncements, and Han supremacist propaganda.

It's just that criticism of China in its sphere of influence tends to produce a "rally round the flag" effect. And comments about how the United States and "free" countries don't always have clean hands themselves (I can't argue with them there).


"Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. "

100% correct. Because the US needs to be seen "to be Doing Something." In its own way, this is like another lecture on Tibet, or being nice to the Falun Gong.

Thank you for your input.

I fear due to this Chinese expanding in the South Chinese sea, that we may face a war, a war between USA and China at start then other countries will be dragged into this war.

I hope this will not happen.

Markus

[Skybird]

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-05/is-the-u-s-in-a-new-cold-war-china-has-already-declared-it


Highly relevant, I would say, while German stupid polticians still babble of Germany's "special relation" to Bejing. Einstein was right, only human stupdiity seems to be infinite.

[Catfish]

It is not really a surprise that a lot of countries now see the relationship to the US as a cold war thanks to all this porcelaine smashed by Trump, but this is indeed something different.

It must have been two or more years now that i wrote about China and Cixin Liu, and that anyone who wants to know what China is really up to should read it.

[vienna]

The sad part is the current situation was arrived at not out of necessity, but out of US political expediency; Trump and the minions needed a bogeyman to make it seem there was some actual imminent threat to be dealt with as a justification for actions serving their political goals and as a sort of rallying point for their core support; Russia was a no-go since Putin apparently has Donnie's nose firmly Vlad's butt; North Korea didn't really pan out because Trump is easily assuaged by flattering "perfect' letters from Kim; Cuba nobody really cares about and ditto with Venezuela and other Latin American countries and leaders; all that's really left is China to rattle sabers at and to which shake a tiny fist, so they were the lucky faux 'foe'; if you look carefully at all the actions taken by Trump directed at China, little to nothing has been gained and much has gotten worse...





<O>

[Skybird]

The sad part is the current situation was arrived at not out of necessity, but out of US political expediency; Trump and the minions needed a bogeyman to make it seem there was some actual imminent threat to be dealt with as a justification for actions serving their political goals and as a sort of rallying point for their core support; Russia was a no-go since Putin apparently has Donnie's nose firmly Vlad's butt; North Korea didn't really pan out because Trump is easily assuaged by flattering "perfect' letters from Kim; Cuba nobody really cares about and ditto with Venezuela and other Latin American countries and leaders; all that's really left is China to rattle sabers at and to which shake a tiny fist, so they were the lucky faux 'foe'; if you look carefully at all the actions taken by Trump directed at China, little to nothing has been gained and much has gotten worse...



Ah - no. This is not Trump's mistake, and I assume you do not suspect me to be a Trump sympathiser. China is China all by itself, its own will and its own intention. No matter who sat in the WH, China would have gone this way anyway. it always planned to do so, since years if not decades. Its China.

The german China policy as well as that of Clinton and Obama, has exploded right into our face. We could have seen it coming, if onyl we would have dared to look beyond the moment instead of listening to wishful dreaming. Different to America, Europe and namely Germany and then those net takers in the EU who allowed China to buy itself into their national market and policy making, still prefer to continue dreaming. The fate of those who chose to be weak: once the evil is met, all you can do is smile as before - and smiling, you will be walked upon.

Grin, idiot, grin!