Neutral ships in GWX question

[ChrisPhoenix]

So yesterday i attacked a convoy, picked out two targets and managed to hit and sink them both.
However: the first one that sunk turned into the typical red map symbol of the sunken ship. The second one sank a bit later and turned into a black one. Was that a neutral one? Every ship had no lights on and since they traveled inside the convoy i just assumed they were enemys. It was too dark to see their flags tho.
Is there any kind of message or something, that lets me know if i sank a neutral or friendly one? How do i know?

[John Pancoast]

So yesterday i attacked a convoy, picked out two targets and managed to hit and sink them both.
However: the first one that sunk turned into the typical red map symbol of the sunken ship. The second one sank a bit later and turned into a black one. Was that a neutral one? Every ship had no lights on and since they traveled inside the convoy i just assumed they were enemys. It was too dark to see their flags tho.
Is there any kind of message or something, that lets me know if i sank a neutral or friendly one? How do i know?

The sunken ship icon can act strange/confusing at times. Threads on the subject have all kinds of opinions of what is what.

But I believe generally, a black one is one you sunk but didn't see, weren't in the immediate area, sunk later, etc.

Neutrals in an enemy convoy aren't an issue in GWX.

[ChrisPhoenix]

Wow that was a quick answer. Thank you!:salute:

So does that mean there are none in GWX? Because i remember stock silent hunter had them. But since the map symbols were colored it wasn't an issue.
Is it save to assume that every ship without the lights on is an enemy?

[John Pancoast]

Wow that was a quick answer. Thank you!:salute:

So does that mean there are none in GWX? Because i remember stock silent hunter had them. But since the map symbols were colored it wasn't an issue.
Is it save to assume that every ship without the lights on is an enemy?




Most if not all megamods removed the neutrals from enemy convoys.


Yes, anything without lights can be sunk. Ships that shouldn't be will have their flags WELL lit up with two lights.


Can be seen for miles at night. The lights will be on during the day too.

[K-61]

You can also edit the file data\cfg\basic and go down to the line in the RENOWN section and edit the line neutral to = 1. This way you do not suffer a hit for sinking a neutral. My rational is that a neutral inside a belligerent convoy is carrying contraband to the enemy.

I use this discretely, just for convoys, and not as an excuse to sink any neutral for the purposes of running up the tonnage score.

[ChrisPhoenix]

You can also edit the file data\cfg\basic and go down to the line in the RENOWN section and edit the line neutral to = 1. This way you do not suffer a hit for sinking a neutral. My rational is that a neutral inside a belligerent convoy is carrying contraband to the enemy.

I use this discretely, just for convoys, and not as an excuse to sink any neutral for the purposes of running up the tonnage score.

You have a good point there. Tho it is kind of cheating because it is against the "gamerules". I think that at some point at my second patrol i received a radio message saying that any neutral that might carry goods to england can be sunk.

I don't feel so good about changing stuff manually in any files. I fear that i might ruin my savegame. :oops:

[Jeff-Groves]

It would have been nice IF the Games were coded to remove the neutral statis from ships if in a convoy.
But hindsight is 20/20

Myself? I'd change WrongShipSunk=-5000 to WrongShipSunk=0
You don't take the hit for a Neutral but they are still Neutral.

[ChrisPhoenix]

I just played a little bit and had a strange encounter:

Near the coast of denmark i came across a merchant. completely dark, no lights whatsoever. I was suspicious because it was unlikely to be an enemy ship that near to german territory. Since the sea was calm i ordered to man the deck gun, but held fire until i was very close. Luckily for the merchant. The captain must have had a death wish or something. It was indeed danish and therefore neutral (Dec. 1939). So much for well lit flags i guess...

[Jeff-Groves]

Not all flags are lit up.
Part of the Fog of War.

[John Pancoast]

I just played a little bit and had a strange encounter:

Near the coast of denmark i came across a merchant. completely dark, no lights whatsoever. I was suspicious because it was unlikely to be an enemy ship that near to german territory. Since the sea was calm i ordered to man the deck gun, but held fire until i was very close. Luckily for the merchant. The captain must have had a death wish or something. It was indeed danish and therefore neutral (Dec. 1939). So much for well lit flags i guess...

Sink it anyway; lights out. Perhaps it was neutral in name only. Contraband runner <g>.

I've done many campaigns GWX, NYGM, and a modified 8k. Have yet to find a neutral in any convoy that also has enemy ships.

Ships in convoys = targets.

[Jeff-Groves]

BBW did the scripting for GWX.
As far as I remember? There should be no neutrals in Convoys.
But I don't recall stuff as well as I did years ago.
And what is a convey anyway?
:03:

[ChrisPhoenix]

Thanks everybody. I will keep that in mind. I don't think i got punished for anything since i returned to port with around 45000 brt and got plenty of renown. Tho gwx seems to give out far less. Two of my officers got an iron cross second class and i did not... :hmmm:

May i ask another question, although it has nothing to do with the original topic?
I tried to use the recognition manual to measure the targets speed but it just doesn't work. You know, lengh divided by seconds times two... In Wolfpack this works fantastic but in SH3 something seems weird. Since i play with map symbols on, i have plenty of other methods to calculate speed, but i tried to use this just to confirm things. But lets say the map tells me the target is going at 11 knots, when i try to use the manual it's always around 6 or 7. Thats a big difference even tho i'm certain that i identified the ship correctly.
What am i doing wrong? It is as if the stats in the manual are just not correct for the ship models.

Wow sorry, that was a big chunk of text...:oops:

[Pisces]

Are you not forgetting to multiply length over seconds by two (roughly) to get knots? As your result seems to be halve of what you should get.

1 nautical miles per hour is 0.514 meter per seconds. So in order to get the precise speed in knots, length over time should be multiplied by 1.944 (3600/1852) But your length and timing accuracy will not be as good so don't bother and go with the above.

[ChrisPhoenix]

I am sure i am not forgetting to multiply by 2 at the end. I did not know it was 1.94 but the result should not be that different...

[Pisces]

Then the only cause I can think of is that you are moving forward and looking on a different bearing than 0 or 180, and skewing the timing of the passage with your own speed across the line of sight.

[ChrisPhoenix]

Wait, since when does the bearing make a difference? I thought it doesn't matter at which bearing or angle the target is, as long as it passes through it's full lengh?

In terms of speed: well i have noticed that gwx mod screws your speed and course in heavy weather. And everytime i tried it, the sea was pretty rough with windspeed 15 m/s. Could that be the issue?

[Pisces]

Yes, wave action could shift the line in the periscope sideways, disturbing the measurement. Also make sure you are not still in a slow turn.

What I meant is that if you move forward and say look to a ship on bearing 30. Then you are dragging your periscope line sideways (across the line of sight) with halve of your own speed (sine of 30 degrees= 0.5). If it happens to be at 90 degrees then your full speed will drag the line sideways, even if it is under a knot. This shortens or delays the time measurement. (depending if you are moving with or against its course) My advice is to be submerged and slowed down completely. OR turn the bow of the uboat right in front of the target, (or 180 just in front for an aft measurement) if you must keep moving for whatever reason. Then your speed is along the line of sight and will not have any affect on shortening or delaying the passage.

There are mathematical ways to correct for your own speed across a certain bearing but this requires a good estimate of the AOB, basically a more complicated formula. Turning is easier.

The above applies to WP equally as other sims though. So I don't see how this could be any different if you perform the procedure to the letter.

Way back there was the OLC GUI mod with early implementations of the RAOBF that used halved mast heights in the recognition manual (because it worked better using the periscope scale). But that couldn't make your speed halve of what it should be.

[ChrisPhoenix]

I will test this out. Thanks everybody for the replies! Maybe i can try things in calm weather and see if it makes a difference.
I wonder how real life Kaleuns did it... I mean gwx adds a lot of realism to the game but it is still far away from the complicated conditions of real life...

[John Pancoast]

Just do fast 90 attacks and you won't have to worry about all the juggling many things at once to get other methods to work. <g>