SH3 Commander Malfunctions/Sabotage Feature

[John Pancoast]

NYGM says not to use this. Searched but can't find the answer to the question, why not ?

Looking at the randomized events.cfg in SH3C, I see all these options have been semi-coloned out.

I really like these options of SH3C and would like to use them, which I plan on doing by just removing the ; from each section.

But it'll take some time, so if there is some game breaking reason NYGM doesn't want them used, I don't want to waste my time doing so.

Any idea ?

[John Pancoast]

Got it working with NYGM. Also been doing some other cross modding between it and GWX.

I.e., added the NYGM wolf packs, cam ship, MAD Catalina and Avenger to the GWX campaign today.
Did it to the modified Rub campaign I have awhile ago.

Few other ideas to do too.

[Aquelarrefox]

NYGM says not to use this. Searched but can't find the answer to the question, why not ?

Looking at the randomized events.cfg in SH3C, I see all these options have been semi-coloned (;) out.

I really like these options of SH3C and would like to use them, which I plan on doing by just removing the ; from each section.

But it'll take some time, so if there is some game breaking reason NYGM doesn't want them used, I don't want to waste my time doing so.

Any idea ?
as far i know the values are compatibles with subs sets of nygm (they were changed early and tied out posible by steibler).
values "position" are diferent for diferent moddel subs: gwx, nygm and uboat compilation (and wac 5) are diferent entries, there you have incompatibilieties.
The files moddified are in subs folder and sensor file, the set should be the same (theres a few adttional modification some have done to command file)
im looking similar things...

[John Pancoast]

as far i know the values are compatibles with subs sets of nygm (they were changed early and tied out posible by steibler).
values "position" are diferent for diferent moddel subs: gwx, nygm and uboat compilation (and wac 5) are diferent entries, there you have incompatibilieties.
The files moddified are in subs folder and sensor file, the set should be the same (theres a few adttional modification some have done to command file)
im looking similar things...


I've been using this option since I posted this. Works fine, no problems that I've seen.

[Aquelarrefox]

I've been using this option since I posted this. Works fine, no problems that I've seen.

Cool.

[Anvar1061]

MAD Catalina
What is this mod?

[Aquelarrefox]

What is this mod?

Nygm have an.Ai.sensor is some plans to model.mad (magnetic sensor) I don't remember if many planes have have this in equipment files, at least catalina could have it. They detect you in the fog. I don't remember if with radar alert the.mad is detected. Check the manual of nygm, was implanted in 3.0 I believe

[John Pancoast]

What is this mod?

Magnetic Anomoly Detection. Able to detect *submerged* subs due to their magnetic influence. Nothing to do with radar.
You get sunk without even knowing an airplane was around. NYGM has them on the Catalina.
Not very common to run across them though. They came about late war.
From the NYGM 3.6f documentation:
"The MAD-mod (MAD-sensor by LGN1). (NYGM 3.6A) This provides selected American Catalinas with a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector) sensor. The MAD sensor is not very sensitive, and it has a short range, but it works day and night to detect the unexpected magnetic field of a submerged U-boat (functions to at least 100m depth) as the Catalina aircraft follows its scripted path overhead. If detected, the Catalina will attack immediately with bombs - and your U-boat will know nothing about it until the bombs start falling around. Rather scary! Even the TC will not drop when this happens. Your only warning will be if you are using the SH3 ‘Noise Meter’, which will turn suddenly red - and you should not be using the Noise Meter for realistic play anyway.
However, before you panic too much, let us reassure you about the following conditions:
a) Not used before January 1943.
b) Used (in SH3) only around the British Isles, the Bay of Biscay and in the approaches west of Gibraltar. (We won’t be more precise, so as to maintain the element of surprise.)
c) The sensor is not very sensitive and has only a short range. Attacks by MAD-Catalinas should be rare in a career, and even rarer in a single patrol. Just as in real life."

[Aquelarrefox]

Magnetic Anomoly Detection. Able to detect *submerged* subs due to their magnetic influence. Nothing to do with radar.
You get sunk without even knowing an airplane was around. NYGM has them on the Catalina.
Not very common to run across them though. They came about late war.
From the NYGM 3.6f documentation:
"The MAD-mod (MAD-sensor by LGN1). (NYGM 3.6A) This provides selected American Catalinas with a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector) sensor. The MAD sensor is not very sensitive, and it has a short range, but it works day and night to detect the unexpected magnetic field of a submerged U-boat (functions to at least 100m depth) as the Catalina aircraft follows its scripted path overhead. If detected, the Catalina will attack immediately with bombs - and your U-boat will know nothing about it until the bombs start falling around. Rather scary! Even the TC will not drop when this happens. Your only warning will be if you are using the SH3 ‘Noise Meter’, which will turn suddenly red - and you should not be using the Noise Meter for realistic play anyway.
However, before you panic too much, let us reassure you about the following conditions:
a) Not used before January 1943.
b) Used (in SH3) only around the British Isles, the Bay of Biscay and in the approaches west of Gibraltar. (We won’t be more precise, so as to maintain the element of surprise.)
c) The sensor is not very sensitive and has only a short range. Attacks by MAD-Catalinas should be rare in a career, and even rarer in a single patrol. Just as in real life."
in air folder you have : ALBS_MADCatalina and ALBS_PBYCatalina

[Anvar1061]

Très intéressant! Je ne connaissais pas la fonction Ai_sensors.

[Anvar1061]

Very interesting! I didn't know about the Ai_sensors function

Very interesting! I didn't know about the Ai_sensors function.

[Aquelarrefox]

Very interesting! I didn't know about the Ai_sensors function.

This plane have few entries in nygm so is near to rare find it, but make the weathermeter (I prefer call or visual range) much valuable.
Could be immersing know if it was more extended the use to maybe add to air bases or in scr. More important if it was used in the Mediterranean?

[Aquelarrefox]

Have someone a random events file for German uboat compilation?
I try the wac5 file but it give me ctd. Probably the index was touched by handsolo. I couldn't find a compatible version of the file.
Any idea?

[John Pancoast]

Have someone a random events file for German uboat compilation?
I try the wac5 file but it give me ctd. Probably the index was touched by handsolo. I couldn't find a compatible version of the file.
Any idea?

The only such file is the one already part of SH3 Commander. It is for any install.
There is no such file for each megamod unless the makers of the mod provide it.

[John Pancoast]

Finally figured out why this feature is recommended NOT to use. The hex offsets used in the Commander file randomized events.cfg are from 1.4b.
As so many of the files used by the hex offsets have been modded to be different than their 1.4b version, the Commander hex offsets won't then match the modded game file hex offsets.
Doing a check of the GWX Commander file it appears it's hex offsets match those used in 3.0.

[Mad Mardigan]

Magnetic Anomoly Detection. Able to detect *submerged* subs due to their magnetic influence. Nothing to do with radar.
You get sunk without even knowing an airplane was around. NYGM has them on the Catalina.
Not very common to run across them though. They came about late war.
From the NYGM 3.6f documentation:
"The MAD-mod (MAD-sensor by LGN1). (NYGM 3.6A) This provides selected American Catalinas with a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector) sensor. The MAD sensor is not very sensitive, and it has a short range, but it works day and night to detect the unexpected magnetic field of a submerged U-boat (functions to at least 100m depth) as the Catalina aircraft follows its scripted path overhead. If detected, the Catalina will attack immediately with bombs - and your U-boat will know nothing about it until the bombs start falling around. Rather scary! Even the TC will not drop when this happens. Your only warning will be if you are using the SH3 ‘Noise Meter’, which will turn suddenly red - and you should not be using the Noise Meter for realistic play anyway.
However, before you panic too much, let us reassure you about the following conditions:
a) Not used before January 1943.
b) Used (in SH3) only around the British Isles, the Bay of Biscay and in the approaches west of Gibraltar. (We won’t be more precise, so as to maintain the element of surprise.)
c) The sensor is not very sensitive and has only a short range. Attacks by MAD-Catalinas should be rare in a career, and even rarer in a single patrol. Just as in real life."

Just out of curiosity, any idea if this is modeled in say... CCoM v 12, by chance of those Catalina aircraft..?? :hmmm:

Just curious....

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

post edit:

From Aquelarrefox's post, right after yours, is this info:

in air folder you have : ALBS_MADCatalina and ALBS_PBYCatalina

Did some looking in the data\Air folder, & located ''ALBS_PBYCatalina'', but not the ''ALBS_MADCatalina'', so 1 of them, is modeled in CCoM v12, but not both... hmm....

[John Pancoast]

Just out of curiosity, any idea if this is modeled in say... CCoM v 12, by chance of those Catalina aircraft..?? :hmmm:

Just curious....

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

post edit:

From Aquelarrefox's post, right after yours, is this info:

in air folder you have : ALBS_MADCatalina and ALBS_PBYCatalina

Did some looking in the data\Air folder, & located ''ALBS_PBYCatalina'', but not the ''ALBS_MADCatalina'', so 1 of them, is modeled in CCoM v12, but not both... hmm....

Far as I know NYGM is the only mod that has a MAD Catalina. However it is easy to add to any install.

On a side note for anyone like me who thinks the escort AI in the game is too weak,(throughout the war) I've been using the RandomizedEvents.cfg file lately to make them tougher. Am encouraged by the results so far.
Specifically, I've added a spread of possible levels of the "Noise factor" section found in the hydrophone section of the sim.cfg file that depending on the value chosen by Commander, makes the player's sub more easily detected by the escorts or keeps the value at the "stock" level of whatever sim.cfg file is being used.
p.s. As is known, the .exe file has AI code. Need proof ? One can delete files that control the AI, i.e., the sim.cfg file, and the game will run.
Doing so makes them "uber" so it would appear the various files in the game that control the AI are there to "tone it down" from this uber level.

[Aktungbby]

Does the MAD Catalina NGYM mod also use the correct bomb? 65.5 lb retro bomb. It was filled with 25 lb of Torpex and the weapon was rocket propelled backwards to the line of flight at a speed that counteracted the aircraft's forward motion. It was released rearwards from rails on the wings of the aircraft. Thus, with the aircraft's forward motion cancelled-out by the rocket motor, the device fell directly onto the target.

It possessed two advantages over the use of DCs; no pre-setting of depth was required, and the enemy was unaware of the attack if no hits were made. https://www.navalhistory.org/2019/10/08/the-retro-bomb[25] One new solution was the use of magnetic anomaly detection, or MAD. This device detected variations in the Earth’s magnetic field due to the presence of a large iron object near the detector that caused distortions in the field. A plane flying over a submarine using a MAD device would detect its presence by this distortion. At the time, the U.S. Navy put great faith in the ability of MAD to find submarines. It was the their latest “secret” invention.

But the Navy lacked a weapon that could be used with MAD to attack a submarine after it was found. Division 3, Section L, of the National Defense Research Committee (NDRC) and Office of Scientific Research and Development (OSRD) at Caltech received the task of developing one. Richard C. Tolman, professor of physical chemistry and mathematical physics headed the project with his deputy, Charles C. Lauritsen, professor of physics.


Richard C. Tolman ca. 1945 (Science History Institute)

Because a MAD detection would not occur until the aircraft had flown over its target, the weapon would have to be launched so that it fell absolutely vertical and behind the aircraft. This would allow the bomb to fall directly on the position of a MAD detection and attack the submarine. Using conventional bombs and depth charges meant they fell well ahead of the target instead of on it due to the plane’s motion. The solution Caltech came up with was the retro bomb. https://www.navalhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Picture1-350x322.png


Charles C. Lauritsen
(AIP Emilio Segrè Visual Archives, Physics Today Collection)

Laursiten’s solution was to use the existing model of the Anti-Submarine Rocket (ASR) “Mousetrap,” a 7.2″ rocket developed from the earlier Hedgehog spigot bomb, fired in retrograde. That is, launched backwards from the wing of a naval patrol plane. The Consolidated PBY-5A Catalina, the Navy’s most common patrol plane, would be used.

The Mousetrap rocket had been in design and testing at Caltech since September 1941 and was being tested at Goldstone Dry Lake about thirty miles north of Barstow California (part of Fort Irwin today). This made the modification into the retro bomb quick and simple.

The retro ASR needed a larger motor to match the forward velocity of the Catalina, so this was increased in size from 2.25” diameter to 3.25.” That would give the retro bomb the necessary 400 ft/sec speed to counter forward motion. The explosive warhead remained 60 lbs. and was armed on the operational model by a hydrostatic fuze similar to those used on depth charges. The weapon did not arm until it entered the water and began to submerge increasing its safety while on the carrying aircraft.


Components of the similar Hedgehog bomb. On the retro bomb, the tail tube is larger in diameter due to the use of a rocket motor.
(U.S. Navy)

To test the weapon, engineers from Caltech set up a rig at Goldstone Dry Lake using two telephone poles forty feet apart with a rectangular multiturn coil of heavy wire hung between them powered by car batteries and a DC generator. This simulated the magnetic signature of a submarine and allowed the MAD detector on the PBY to “find” it. On 3 July 1942 several test runs were made before the PBY dropped one its retro bombs directly onto the test rig damaging it. These tests have the distinction of being the first time a rocket was fired from a U.S. combat aircraft.

The aircraft mounting consisted of two dozen retro bombs mounted on the wings of a PBY. A shallow metal trough served to guide the launch and protect the wing of the plane. Later, the mountings were increased to 30 per plane.

Three different motors were developed for the operational rocket, based on the expected speed of the aircraft. The 7V6 for 205 mph, the 7V7 for 200 mph, and the 7V8 for 400 mph. By the time the retro bomb went into operational use, the explosive warhead replaced TNT with Torpex, a more powerful explosive. These retro bombs were designated 7V11 and 7V13 and standardized in May 1943.

VP-63 and the operational use of the retro bomb

With success of the testing, a Patrol Squadron of PBY Catalina was formed to use MAD and retro bombs. Designated VP-63, the squadron was organized at NAS Alameda, California, on 19 September 1942. They were quickly dubbed the “Mad Cats” from their use of the MAD detector and flying PBY Catalina, or “Cat,” patrol planes, a common nickname for this aircraft.

The method VP-63 developed was when a submarine was detected, a smoke/light float would be dropped to mark the sub’s position. Multiple passes established the direction of the sub. This allowed an accurate attack to be made.

A PBY’s crew initiated the attack based on the MAD readings. The retro bombs fired automatically via a circuit connected through the MAD instrumentation. The launch system fired the bombs in a rectangular pattern to increase the likelihood of a hit.

VP-63 moved to the NAS Quonset Point, Rhode Island, on 3 March 1943 where they were assigned to Air Anti-Submarine Development Center Atlantic (AirASDevLant) for operational testing of MAD and the retro bomb.

Parts of the squadron were assigned to separate locations along the U.S. East Coast to begin operational sorties on 21 April, looking for U-boats off the southeastern Atlantic seaboard and Florida.

The squadron quickly discovered their equipment had serious limitations. The operational altitude for MAD was limited to under 400 feet, and frequently the planes were flying at 50 to 150 feet to detect U-boats. Formation flying at very low altitude by four or more planes abreast roughly a quarter mile apart became normal practice. MAD worked, locating a half-dozen shipwrecks, but it was too short-ranged to randomly find a submarine other than by sheer luck.

VP-63 also traded their amphibious PBY 5As for PBY 5s that lacked landing gear. It was found that the extra weight of the landing gear made the plane marginally airworthy when carrying MAD gear and retro bombs.


A smoke/light float in launch position on a PBY. Note the MAD boom under the tail of the plane.
(U.S. Navy)

[John Pancoast]

It uses the ordnance available in NYGM and works well in the test mission supplied.