need a bit help on figuring out true position under real navigation [Archive]

bstanko6

12-28-19, 01:38 PM

Hey wolfcat. It’s called dead reckoning. Knowing your speed, and watching the stopwatch you can roughly determine your position on the map! Of course, limited by pc, it’s impossible to determine Course Made Good, And such. I have a video on dead reckoning. If you wish. Click my signature.

Wolfcat

12-29-19, 04:57 AM

Dude, ur channel is so messy. U have SH3 and Sh5 stuff mixed together. Can't you create some playlists to organize things. :haha: It's all good. Just busting your chops. Nice video. But I am more interested to learn about celestial positioning. I haven't been able to find any good ones online. Also, in your video, you mentioned you would do another video on tactical deck reckoning, but I haven't seen anything in your library.

bstanko6

12-29-19, 10:48 AM

Celestial navigating is difficult since it is not modeled well in the game. The sextant used is not even doing it correctly, but through the limitation of the game. The SH3/5 videos work for both games.

THEBERBSTER

12-29-19, 07:41 PM

Hi W
Just change the Real Navigation settings in TDW's OFEV so the navigatior gives you what you want.
For example the default error is 5,000 meters just change it 0 and you are on the money.
Peter

Sean C

12-30-19, 12:43 AM

I am more interested to learn about celestial positioning.

I'd be happy to help.

Wolfcat

12-30-19, 03:14 PM

I'd be happy to help.

Sure, show me. very interested to learn.

Sean C

12-30-19, 06:15 PM

Well, detailing the whole process would be a bit lengthy to post here (but I can do that if you like). Is there something in particular you are having trouble with?

Also, keep in mind that several members here have come to the conclusion that accurate celestial navigation cannot be done in SH. (I don't know because I don't play it.) But if you learn how to do it, you can decide for yourself.

Wolfcat

12-31-19, 09:48 AM

If accurate positioning cannot be done in game then forget it. I guess all games have limitations, can't replicate the real world 100% correct.

excel4004

12-31-19, 10:43 AM

Relax, in 99% percent of the game it isnt important to know excactly where you are. Make you calculations for your engagement near Hawaii or near Kiel, it doesent matter where you are exactly for the right AOB.

derstosstrupp

12-31-19, 03:40 PM

There’s always this:https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134816

Mod your game to hide your own boat icon, then…
By way of a python script that pulls your coordinates out of SH3 or SH4, and puts them into a planetarium software, you can go into the software and get your real world sights, go back into the game and plot it. I’ve done this quite a bit. The only caveat is that the game then becomes all about this, and you tend to get burnt out pretty quickly. But it scratches the itch.

vdr1981

01-01-20, 07:44 AM

In this thread you can see that the full celestial navigation is absolutely possible in SH5/TWoS. Also, I certainly am not the expert on this subject but I remember that Sjizzle told that the celestial sphere is accurate in SH5, something which wasn't the case in previous SH games. :yep:
Unfortunately, pictures from the tutorial are down from some case. I hope Sjizzle will fix that soon...

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206103

Happy new year Captains! :salute::salute::salute:

derstosstrupp

01-01-20, 08:29 AM

vdr1981

01-01-20, 08:52 AM

I mean yeah, he’s just doing a sun line for latitude, that’s not full celestial though with multiple star fixes etc., that I have never seen done in the game. Also, I tried to do this with the sextant in TWOS and I could not figure out how to get an accurate reading down to the necessary minute of accuracy with all the bucking around of the boat
Well, something is better than nothing IMO. :yep: That been said I'm pretty much positive that Sizzle has confirmed what I said about star positions in SH5. I'll try to find the exact post...

Regarding your measurement problem, try to pause the game (backspace) when you align your sextant with the horizon. Than do the measurement. Real sextant double view could not be implemented in SH5 but the existing one could also do the job with mentioned "pause" trick. :yep:

derstosstrupp

01-01-20, 08:56 AM

Excellent suggestion I will try that! Thanks!

And yes I agree, something is certainly better than nothing.

vdr1981

01-01-20, 09:19 AM

Excellent suggestion I will try that! Thanks!

And yes I agree, something is certainly better than nothing.
also one more tip, diving to deck awash depth will reduce boat movement...
Hopefully Sjizzle will jump in soon with few more useful tips...

Sjizzle

01-01-20, 10:40 AM

I watched a few videos on real navigation, but none talked about how to manually figure out your position. Most simply ask the navigator for the fix. But AI always has some error. Is there any way to do this manually yourself?

Aloha and a happy new year to all of u....
u can calculate by yourself the position using the sextant from the game, but it's not 100% accurate...there is some factors for example like the high of your eye's sextant index error and more...
in SH5 is only 1 thing done perfectly with no bugs and that is the celestial sphere/body's... they are really accurate... if u don't believe me install Stellarium from here (https://stellarium.org/) and use the same date hour location as in SH5 and u will be amazed :03:

btw my Real navigation thread is messed up because i lost my all files from a server and now i am working/looking to fix this

Wolfcat

01-02-20, 05:58 PM

Another quick one. So celestial positioning can only be done at night? I thought you could also do it in daytime based on the position of the Sun.

derstosstrupp

01-02-20, 08:28 PM

Another quick one. So celestial positioning can only be done at night? I thought you could also do it in daytime based on the position of the Sun.

A typical day in the life of a navigator is a morning fix at dawn using stars/planets, then a mid morning sun sight (rendering only one line of position or LOP). Then a noon latitude sight for a running fix (DRing the morning sun LOP forward). Then an afternoon sun LOP for a running fix (DRing noon line forward). Then an evening fix using stars/planets to tie a bow on it.

Sjizzle

01-03-20, 02:45 AM

for better understanding the celestial navigation watch this video series it's very well explained there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMoWQoKmECc&list=PLah9ocjQNN0Zr7-oKE58wTzXE4XaQU64E (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLah9ocjQNN0Zr7-oKE58wTzXE4XaQU64E)

vdr1981

01-03-20, 06:35 AM

for better understanding the celestial navigation watch this video series it's very well explained there

[/URL][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMoWQoKmECc&list=PLah9ocjQNN0Zr7-oKE58wTzXE4XaQU64E (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLah9ocjQNN0Zr7-oKE58wTzXE4XaQU64E)

Sjizzle, can you please explain how do you do measurements when measured object is higher than 20-25 deg? How do you eliminate possible errors due to boat instability since we don't have classic sextant double prism view implemented in the game?

Sjizzle

01-04-20, 11:39 AM

Sjizzle, can you please explain how do you do measurements when measured object is higher than 20-25 deg? How do you eliminate possible errors due to boat instability since we don't have classic sextant double prism view implemented in the game?

there is an in realism settings an option which one make the both to be stable... i can recall the option name

vdr1981

01-04-20, 04:30 PM

there is an in realism settings an option which one make the both to be stable... i can recall the option name

I see, you mean "no scope movement" or something like that. :yep: But do you have any trick for precise measurements with 100% realism? I noticed that if you dive to 8 meters your boat will be perfectly stabilized and the sextant can still be used...:yep:

Sjizzle

01-05-20, 07:45 AM

I see, you mean "no scope movement" or something like that. :yep: But do you have any trick for precise measurements with 100% realism? I noticed that if you dive to 8 meters your boat will be perfectly stabilized and the sextant can still be used...:yep:

yea if u dive 7-8 u can use the sextan and the both is stable ....i always used local noon to find out the my latitude...and used this Sunsight.xls (Sunsight.xls) file to find out my longitude then Ded Recognin till next day local noon...using the stars to find out your location u need know very well the celestial body's and the SH5 map it's damn unfriendly for that kind of navigation...i never used time compression more then 128 because u will drift really far away from your course...us DR each 2-3 hours....
i also use Stellarium parallel with the game...there was some .bat file somewhere and u could connect stellarium with SH5 made your navigation really easy...

vdr1981

01-05-20, 08:12 AM

yea if u dive 7-8 u can use the sextan and the both is stable ....i always used local noon to find out the my latitude...and used this Sunsight.xls (https://www.backbearing.com/files/Sunsight.xls) file to find out my longitude then Ded Recognin till next day local noon...using the stars to find out your location u need know very well the celestial body's and the SH5 map it's damn unfriendly for that kind of navigation...i never used time compression more then 128 because u will drift really far away from your course...us DR each 2-3 hours....
i also use Stellarium parallel with the game...there was some .bat file somewhere and u could connect stellarium with SH5 made your navigation really easy...
Thanks Sjizzle for your help.

I must praise my self a bit. :) I think I have learned how to take local noon latitude readings and and also to find Polaris!

Local noon latitude is actually quite simple. The biggest problem here is to determent when "local noon" exactly is (when the sun is actually on zenith).

Also, it seems that in order to take the most accurate measurement with built in sextant one has to :
- Dive to 8m to stabilize the boat
- Align the sextant with the horizon and nullify it using stadimeter button
- Then, taking measurement by moving sextant up (not by using stadimeter button because it seems that it will introduce some error) until it's aligned with a celestial object.

Using this method I think I achieved the best results...

derstosstrupp

01-05-20, 08:24 AM

Thank you gentlemen! As soon as I have some time I’m definitely going to go back into the game and try this out. Regarding the other stars, I have a pretty good method of identifying stars by doing the sight reduction in reverse, so I’ll test it out with some star sights too.:up:

vdr1981

01-05-20, 11:00 AM

Sjizzle

01-05-20, 11:51 AM

Hm, it seems that my sextant measurements are always "short" for about 30-50 minutes, even with "no stabilized view" option disabled. Not sure is it due to sextant or my measurement precision... :hmmm:Any comment Sjizzle? Maybe I should aim for top of the sun instead of center?

never center or top of the sun... always bottom of the sun...local is noon when 12 PM local time not UTC !

Edit:

forgot to say if some mod change the cameras.cam files from NewUIs_TDC_7_5_0_ByTheDarkWraith\data\Library\ then u can forgot the sextant...all measurements will be way off

vdr1981

01-07-20, 04:43 PM

never center or top of the sun... always bottom of the sun...local is noon when 12 PM local time not UTC !

Edit:

forgot to say if some mod change the cameras.cam files from NewUIs_TDC_7_5_0_ByTheDarkWraith\data\Library\ then u can forgot the sextant...all measurements will be way off
Hm, if aim for the bottom of the sun I'm of for a entire degree :hmmm:.

How do you mean if we change cameras.cam file sextant won't work properly? We all use different cameras.cam settings (remember resolution patches). I tried with different cameras.cam files, even the one from default TDW New UIs mod but still , results are pretty much the same. Can you upload cameras.cam which you use for sextant?

One more question. When should I take sun readings? When the sun is highest on the sky (this is local noon if I understand this correctly) or at 12PM local (nautical) time? Local time is actually nautical, right?

Sjizzle

01-08-20, 12:16 PM

Hm, if aim for the bottom of the sun I'm of for a entire degree :hmmm:.

How do you mean if we change cameras.cam file sextant won't work properly? We all use different cameras.cam settings (remember resolution patches). I tried with different cameras.cam files, even the one from default TDW New UIs mod but still , results are pretty much the same. Can you upload cameras.cam which you use for sextant?

One more question. When should I take sun readings? When the sun is highest on the sky (this is local noon if I understand this correctly) or at 12PM local (nautical) time? Local time is actually nautical, right?

the default cameras.cam from tdw's i think is for 8:5 ration and that one work perfectly and i think not sure but tdw edited all cam rezolution...if nope then i must look where i have my all resolution patches and i'll send it to u... Manos 100% sure nut sure about large optics....

local noon when the sun is the highest on the sky...yea local nautical time...

vdr1981

01-08-20, 01:47 PM

the default cameras.cam from tdw's i think is for 8:5 ration and that one work perfectly and i think not sure but tdw edited all cam rezolution...if nope then i must look where i have my all resolution patches and i'll send it to u... Manos 100% sure nut sure about large optics....

From my testing, resolution patches (or angular angle settings in cameras.cam file) are completely irrelevant for sextant. If I measure altitude by moving uzo/sextant up, the results are always the same and that is what is confusing me. :hmmm: I even if I set some abnormal values for UZO angular angle in cameras.cam file, I still get the same results. For now I can only conclude that either I'm doing something wrong or sun position in the sky is approximately 1deg "lower" that in should be. :hmmm:

Large optics mod is just different (bigger scope circle) dds texture for scopes. It has it's own set of resolution patches but like I sad, It appears that these aren't effecting sextant measurements. For example, manos scopes resolution patches should work just fine with large optics and sextant.

local noon when the sun is the highest on the sky...yea local nautical time...
And It's almost never at 12.00 PM exacty, right? That guy from YT sad that local noon when measurement should be done is when the sun is due north or south of you. this means 180 or 0 deg of true azimuth from our position? Did I understood this correctly? :hmmm:

Sorry for annoyances Sjizzle but this celestial stuff really starts to fascinates me...:D Cheers! :salute:

derstosstrupp

01-08-20, 04:33 PM

The sun at its highest point (LAN or local apparent noon) will be on your meridian i.e. directly north or south, that’s correct.

I really hope this gets sorted out - watching with bated breath here!

vdr1981

01-11-20, 09:15 AM

OK Captains, I think I got it...

I noticed that if I aim for top of the sun if the sun is south of me and/or aim for bottom of the sun if the sun is north of me(talking about local noon when sun is on my meridian), my calculations will be very accurate withing 5-10km of my real latitude, which is quite good IMO. :yep:

Now, I'm not sure is this due to some kind of sextant error or due to slight sun deviation in SH world but I'm pretty much sure that it isn't due to my measurements.

Tested this on various locations and different dates all around northern hemisphere and the results are pretty consistent. :yep:

vdr1981

01-14-20, 04:35 AM

Still WIP though...

https://i.postimg.cc/P5ZvthV2/Capture.jpg

Wolfcat

01-14-20, 09:08 AM

Just a related question. I keep getting radio messages about events taking place at certain coordinates. But how do I find coordinates on nav map? Like they say some German ships got attacked at 50’ west 29’ north. How do I find that coordinates on map so that I can probably lend a hand.

vdr1981

01-15-20, 10:55 AM