Russia Is About To Turn Off The Internet

[mapuc]

Is this possible ?

I know there are something called intranet. But close the World Wide Web in the entire Russia..isn't this different

The Russian government is about to begin testing its own internal Internet in order to determine whether the country’s information-sharing networks can be isolated from the World Wide Web. The first phase of testing is scheduled to take place in November, and will see the regular global Internet temporarily replaced with a national system known as RuNet.

https://www.iflscience.com/technology/russia-plans-disconnect-from-web-test-its-own-internal-internet/?fbclid=IwAR2m3uEK33oWMOHeF8BAFYiSK2gP6V1CEcpqDiJa oBjuGx47g2myYu0ACwQ

Markus

[ikalugin]

This is about internal resilience. Ie if say US places hard sanctions on the Russian segment of the Internet we want to be sure that it would still be working and providing key services.

[Skybird]

While it also has something to do with information and communicition control of own citizens like they do it with the web in China already, in principle it is clever what Russia tries to gain in ability there: independence from the US' web control and dominance. Its consistent with their policy of becoming independent from the dollar as well (they have sold practically all their dollar reserve and bonds).



Europe dreams of acchieving the same, but does nto come to terms. Before he fell off the stage, Germany's economy minister Altmeier had a speech at a conference about the attempt to raise a European cloud service to break the monopoly of the Ameican compoanies here. It is also about data security of course, because you can take it as granted that the NSA tries to monitor the cloud space on American servers by routine - last but not least for economic spionage and material that could be used against European politics and economics and companies. And since Lil Boy at the latest it should be clear that Europe cannot trust the US anmore.

[ikalugin]

I wouldn't say that we are going for true independence, but we do want to have key services up if push comes to shove due to how important they are now adays for normal functioning of the country, even in emergencies.


For example think about how even back bone phone networks work - they essentially use the internet like networks.

[captainadccdacaptain]

North Korea supposedly has its own intranet, so it wouldn't be too far off for them to do

[Catfish]

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-29/internet-50th-anniversary-ucla-kleinrock

"Artificial intelligence, machine learning, facial recognition, biometrics and other advanced technologies could be used by governments to weaken democratic institutions.
The balkanization of the internet is now conceivable as firewalls spring up around national networks."

[mapuc]

My thoughts or wonder was more in the technical area

Not in the political area.

It could be as ikalugin said in his first comment.

To have a internet running even if the ordinary have been shut down by other countries outside Russia.

Markus

[Catfish]

But it is a good argument with the side-effect of "protecting" your people from other peoples' (read: nations) views.
Of course a country should be independent, but why not habe two national nets, one for services and one for international information.
The second the international one is turned off should tell you something is going wrong in your country.

[ikalugin]

But it is a good argument with the side-effect of "protecting" your people from other peoples' (read: nations) views.
Of course a country should be independent, but why not habe two national nets, one for services and one for international information.
The second the international one is turned off should tell you something is going wrong on your ****ry.
The issue that you are missing is the centralisation of the key internet services in the US.

This provides USG (and other US actors) not only with a unique information gathering tool (that they are known to exploit) but also with a unique influence tool - those companies can (and do) enact political editorial campaighns abroad (and at home), which are by far more powerful than any stories you have heard about the foreighn bots or political ads influencing US politics.

Should countries attempt to limit such influence, especially if it is hostile and harmful, such as FB stuffing their entire moderation teams (in Ru language sector) with Ukrainian nationalistic political activists?
Should they promote alternative services, so the users can atleast choose their poison?

[Catfish]

[…]
This provides US not only with a unique information gathering tool (that they are known to exploit) but also with a unique propaganda tool - those companies can and do enact political editorial campaighns abroad. Should countries attempt to limit such influence, especially if it is hostile and harmful, such as FB stuffing their entire moderation teams (in Ru language sector) with Ukrainian nationalist political activists?

Well we saw that having the servers in the US are no protection against election manipulation if you do it cleverly :)
Most will even now say that it did not happen because "what should not happen cannot happen (and "has not happened" lol).

It is true that most of international Severs are located in the US, and it is of course true that just of all Windows 10 breaks all previous agreed standards and reluctance when it come to transferring data to the US/NSA/younameit.

I do not like it either, but if the world/international citizen wants to change this, we'd need an international free independent organisation that provides that kind of independent anonymous internet.

If i look at what happens worldwide with the turning back to nationalism and China leading the whole crap i do not see this coming.

[ikalugin]

Well we saw that having the servers in the US are no protection against election manipulation if you do it cleverly :)
Most will even now say that it did not happen because "what should not happen cannot happen (and "has not happened" lol).As I have said - the editorialisation is a much more potent influence tool than any third party (ie Cambridge Analytica) can build.
Look up algorithmic fairness that Google is working on.

I do not like it either, but if the world/international citizen wants to change this, we'd need an international free independent organisation that provides that kind of independent anonymous internet.Spoken like a true globalist :)
So what do nation-state citizens do, when actors from another nation-state attempt to influence their political choices via the services they use on the (enforced by parallel actions) monopoly?

For example, imagine if FB and Google were Russian companies, with politically and socially conservative Russian teams running the editorialising policy, how would you respond to this?

[Catfish]

[…] Spoken like a true globalist :)
So what do nation-state citizens do, when actors from another nation-state attempt to influence their political choices via the services they use on the (enforced by parallel actions) monopoly?

This is the problem with nations or states. Which is simply a kind of advanced tribalism, if you ask me. I know nobody does ask.
Abandon states and nations, and have a world government?
But what should all those alpha manikins and potentates do then.. maybe the world citizens or a world government should just shoot them? :03:

For example, imagine if FB and Google were Russian companies, with politically and socially conservative Russian teams running the editorialising policy, how would you respond to this?
Well i wonder what would be better, having it like it is done by the US now, or by the Russians. I'd say both are not pretty.

I understand it from a national point of view. And i fear that national thinking is coming back strong.

[ikalugin]

This is the problem with nations or states. Which is simply a kind of advanced tribalism, if you ask me. I know nobody does ask.
Abandon states and nations, and have a world government?
But what should all those alpha manikins and potentates do then.. maybe the world citizens or a world government should just shoot them? :03:
And have no representation in the decisions that said government makes due to it being so far removed and get cold drinks outlawed because Chinese think that they are bad for your health. No ice tea (coffee, cream, whatever) for you!


I understand it from a national point of view. And i fear that national thinking is coming back strong.There was a monopolar moment and now it is passing.

[Catfish]

This strange China phenomenon is not the way. It will hold out for maybe 30 years more, but not longer. Pandora's box has been opened 50 years ago.

Regarding the "monopolar moment passing" it is possible, i just hope what some of you call "humanity" gets back to science and a united force, otherwise you will stand no chance.

[ikalugin]

This strange China phenomenon is not the way. It will hold out for maybe 30 years more, but not longer. Pandora's box has been opened 50 years ago.
What Pandora's box?

Regarding the "monopolar moment passing" it is possible, i just hope what some of you call "humanity" gets back to science and a united force, otherwise you will stand no chance.

I knew you were a reptiloid :D


And you should not be projecting your ideological views onto how human society should operate, it would lead to disapointments, much like it does for Skybird.

[Catfish]

I'm quite realistic, what Russia does is strangling the once free Internet for ist own people. The justification to be "independent if brownouts or whatever" is a farce, and every russian knows it.
I am not wasting time "discussing" with Putin's speaking tube.

[Skybird]

All top-DNS level functions are de facto under US control, and certain key servers, master servers or as some call it: the mount Olymp of the internet worldwide, are located in the US as well. NSA, DARPA, the govrnrment and its in parts secret legislation regarding the internet, obviously have no interest in handing this control over to others, to "the world". Clinton said he wanted to share control over it by I think 2000 (or he said thjat in 2000, I am not certain), but that did not happen until today.


For Russia, for China, and less obvious: for the EU, also Asia and all the rest of the globe, this total US control is a potential big scale issue. Its as if the world were a dark cave that now is flooded with light so that all can see: and all six existing light switches being in hands of the Americans, and they do not share it and defend contorl over them with all their fangs and claws.



Most cloud servers (most of them running under Linux, btw) also stand in the US, and thus fall under Us legislation. If the Us law authorizes US offices to scan and spy on cloud-stored data, every US company must comply, unconditionally. Other countries' for exampel data protection laws play no role here. Thats why I say its dangeorus to use cloud services for anything that goes beyond electronic holiday postcards and harmless chatter.



I already said that indeed Russia's steps now can be used to switch off the internet's information and data communciaiton, it already seems to have been done during riots in and near Mscow repeatedly. So it is beign done in China. Still, even if both countries would be perfect liberal democracies, the American dominance in contorlling the web is a big problem for everybody except the US. Lats but not least, mind you: the uS can do like Russia and China as well. Just that the US can literally shut down all the global WWW, like it can switch of the GPS system as well regionally or globally. Except were Russian and Chinese navigation systems can jump in - or their natiopnal intranmets, so to speak, can replace global WWW functionality.


So,, although it can be abused and certainly has been and will be abused, China and Russia nevertheless have legitimate interests to cope with the American options which to their own nations simply are a danger, a threat, and make them vulnerable to US blackmailing or cyber attacks. The Europeans should learn this lesson as well. Fast. Little Cesar at the latest marks the end of the old post-WW2 order of the West. The US is a rival now, no longer an ally. The "West" of the past seven decades - no longer exists.



Taking turns in owning the keys to the Olympic servers, also is no solution, because then Olympic control over the WWW would end in the hands of right these regimes, and worse actors in the third world. And then these players would refuse to hand control over again at the end of their term. Lets face it, the Americans would act stupid if they voluntarily hand over this ace card of theirs. What stupoid would do that...?



There is no solution to this mess, it is a natural conflict and a dilemma. The Europeans should adapt to the facts that define the situation: and come to terms with erecting their own internet infrastructure for servers and cloud computing - and keep the Americans locked out (which they would not like and would start to play dirty over, no doubt, its a topic of utmost geostrategic interest and economic core interests: its maximum essential). Still the Europeans should accept this conflict, and go for this. China already does. And now Russia does. Just Europe still sits in the starting block, and talks, and talks, and talks. And already is trailing behind by twenty years or so. Say goodby to international ambitions to be seen as one of the big players, Europe: just endless moral lecturing does not lead you anywhere. Who wants to be seen as a strong player at the table for the grand jeu, needs to be strong all by himself. And cyberspace, cloud computing, and the web, are three of the most important aspects of the grand jeu.



But the Europeans play CO2 Gambit in a bit to checkmate themselves...! :haha:

[ikalugin]

By riots do you mean protests?

[Skybird]

Sometimes a clear discrimination between both is not possible.And media pictures are not to be trusted anymore.

[ikalugin]

Sometimes a clear discrimination between both is not possible.And media pictures are not to be trusted anymore.
I happen to live in central Moscow :D

[Skybird]

Ah. That explains the riots. :D

[Reece]

:har:

[mapuc]

So what is the purpose behind this ?

Is it what many say or fear what it really is - Controlling their citizens

or

is it as the authorities say prevent Internet from breaking down in case it is been shut down by USA/other countries.

Markus

[ikalugin]

Both, the former is a logical next step over existant regulation, because what was required by it from the regulator (RKN) could not be done without the new tools (DPI etc).


As many other countries we have "save the children" laws which enforce censorship, for example of cartoon pornography depicting minors. Previously websites that were detected to have such banned content would be just added to the IP blacklist, but in a number cases this did not work (ie with telegram).

[Onkel Neal]

There is no solution to this mess,

Not true. There are solutions, although they may be fantasy. Chinese and Russian people stop tolerating dictators, and the US people elect a normal human being as President again.

[Skybird]

Not true. There are solutions, although they may be fantasy. Chinese and Russian people stop tolerating dictators, and the US people elect a normal human being as President again.
Fantasies are no solutions, faery tales are no theories, and hopes are no strategy.

People are different, cultural tradition and education come in and have their influence as well, and I dare say that even genetics make us different a bit, although some will want to crucify me for that.

We are not all the same, even if I violate Western Zeitgeist when saying that.

[Catfish]

Last year in Moscow, people released paper planes—the Telegram messenger icon—to protest a court decision to block Telegram because it violates Russian regulations, on April 30.

"The government has been blocking small [internet] resources since 2014," he adds. If RKN succeeds with this block, "worse [ones] will come."

https://www.newsweek.com/2018/05/11/russia-crackdown-telegram-internet-putin-vk-facebook-kremlin-world-wide-web-909458.html



Seems that soon there will be no difference between the totalitarian UK and Russia anymore :O:

[ikalugin]

Telegram still works in Russia. There were some disruptions to it's operations during the RKN's attempts to enact the court decision (which lead to a lot of collateral damage), but they powered through those.

[Catfish]

^ Seems so, yes. This is not to the Kremlin's credit though. There is no doubt that Putin still tries to isolate Russia from public access to international information sources, and encrypted messaging - which of course makes perfect sense. To him, or any totalitarian regime.
I know he only does it to "protect", of course. Ahem.
Despite all this turbulence and inefficient politics in the "west", certain regimes still seem to have a veritable fear of free thinking and public exchange. And the thing is once this free thinking has been set free, it is hard to incarcerate again.

https://meduza.io/en/cards/russia-is-trying-to-block-telegram-but-it-s-failing-why

I admit I do not quite understand Putin. Bedeveling the enemy is one thing, but ridiculing him makes people careless. Assumed that Putin regards the West as the enemy and describing it as weak, decadent and corrupt, this strategy sucks in the long run.
The only friend helping him is the West itself (see Skybird ;)). But the constant discussing and even setbacks is the real advantage it has vs. totalitarian regimes like China, or Russia.

Maybe Putin is ahead of all this thinking and really tries to improve a civilian society in Russia, but what we have seen until now is not effective. A 'multipolar world', yes it still is and becoming more so. Unfortunately. This cannot be the way to the future though. Just of all RT b.t.w. denies a multipolar world.
If everyone who had a halfway decent education could choose, where would you say would such a person prefer to live? In China? Russia?

[ikalugin]

Note how Signal and Whats-up were not targeted. So it was never about cutting access to western information sources, which is why respectable mainstream media (BBC, CNN etc) and even US state sponsored propaganda (RFE, VOA etc) are still available.

In case of Telegram it was about gaining access to the messages, the current Russian survailance law demands such access if the warrant for the specific individual has been issued (compare and contrast with western style mass survailance which often uses illegal backdoors).


So no, it is/was not about Russia/Putin being evil, which is probably why you do not understand our/his behaviour.

[Catfish]

[...] the current Russian survailance law demands such access if the warrant for the specific individual has been issued (compare and contrast with western style mass survailance which often uses illegal backdoors). [...]

True, unfortunately. With England and the US leading the west in spying on their citizens, but the rest already follows suit. Still funny how China and Russia try to criticize just of all what is common practice in their own countries.

[ikalugin]

In Russia because most of the hardware and software that we use is actually imported it is hard for the state to insert such backdoors (unlike in US, where NSA/CIA could just go and get Google etc give them the access behind the scenes). In terms of survailence state we are a decade behind the US.

[Skybird]

It seems to me you give your hackers not sufficient credit. Give them some love, they are much more capable than you think.

[ikalugin]

It seems to me you give your hackers not sufficient credit. Give them some love, they are much more capable than you think.
Nah, I just see how US corporated their cyber efforts with all the benefits economies of scale and access to key players (ie google) give you and compare it with fairly low key efforts by small quasi independent groups that we have.


But we are following the same path, we are for example going through an attempt to build unified supporting/protective infrastructure (closed state networks, cyber defenses on them and on civilian networks, state datacenters etc) with mixed results.