View Full Version : Mum appeals for US suspect's return
Jimbuna
10-06-19, 05:32 AM
I apologise for the wall of text but for those who care to read it I am mindful that the whole article should be posted to assist in a full understanding.
I'm not about annoying our American members on here but this is potentially very damaging to our countries so called 'special' relationship and will do little other than remind the western world that as Trump repeats so often 'AMERICA FIRST'
It is being alleged the female driver had simply driven out of the base and travelled along the american side of the road (right) causing a head-on collision with the lad on the bike.
I wonder if this will be brought to Trumps attention and I can't help but remind him the UK is not NK and both our countries espouse to adhere to justice and fairness so hopefully common sense and fairness to the victims family will be shown.
The mother of a teenager killed in a car crash involving the wife of a US diplomat has urged her "as a mum" to return to the UK for questioning.
Harry Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike collided with a car near RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire on 27 August.
The diplomat's wife, who has diplomatic immunity, left the UK despite telling police that she had no plans to.
Mr Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, told the BBC the family had been left "utterly devastated" by his death.
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said he has urged the US embassy to reconsider after the State Department said that diplomatic immunity is "rarely waived".
"I have called the US ambassador to express the UK's disappointment with their decision," he said.
Mrs Charles told the BBC's PM programme: "We're really hoping to try to get her back; from me, as a mum, to her, as a mum, you just hope that he [Mr Raab] can try to get through to her.
"We don't wish her any ill harm, but we don't understand how she can just get on a plane and leave our family just utterly devastated.
"If we don't get any luck over here, then we will go over there."
Under the 1961 Vienna Convention, diplomats and their family members are immune from prosecution in their host country, so long as they are not nationals of that country.
However, their immunity can be waived by the state that has sent them - in this case, the US.
There are more than 22,500 people in the UK who hold diplomatic immunity and most do not break the law.
But if a diplomat is guilty of an egregious breach, there are some things that a host country can do.
In a written Parliamentary answer in October 2017, then Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: "The FCO does not tolerate foreign diplomats breaking the law.
"When instances of alleged criminal conduct are brought to our attention by the police, we ask the relevant foreign government to waive diplomatic immunity where appropriate.
"For the most serious offences, and when a relevant waiver has not been granted, we seek the immediate withdrawal of the diplomat."
The problem here is that the US do not appear to have granted a waiver for this particular diplomatic spouse.
Instead, they have removed her from the UK before the British government could threaten to remove her itself if she did not submit to questioning.
As such, the US appears to have calculated that protecting the woman from identification, questioning and possible prosecution was more important than the potential risk to UK-US relations.
This is further evidence the adjective "special" should rarely be used to describe the alliance between both countries.
Supt Sarah Johnson said that the suspect "engaged fully" following the incident near RAF Croughton, a US Air Force communications station, and that she "had previously confirmed... that she had no plans to leave the country in the near future".
"The force is now exploring all opportunities through diplomatic channels to ensure that the investigation continues to progress," she said.
The US Embassy in London confirmed the diplomat's family had left the UK, but it could not confirm the identity of the people involved in the incident "due to security and privacy considerations".
The US State Department said it was in "close consultation" with British officials, but could not comment on "private diplomatic conversation" with the British government.
"We express our deepest sympathies and offer condolences to the family of the deceased in the tragic August 27 traffic accident involving a vehicle driven by the spouse of a U.S. diplomat assigned to the United Kingdom," a spokesperson said.
"Any questions regarding a waiver of immunity with regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels and are considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry; immunity is rarely waived."
Andrea Leadsom MP, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, tweeted that she had met Mr Dunn's family, who she described as "heartbroken". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49945461
A sad state of affairs, hopefully more consideration will be given to the victims family.
I cant say i ever understood this diplomatic immunity gag. I mean - I can understand that diplomats need to be protected from becoming political prisoners in some sketchy situations when those two nations relationship has soured.
But i don't see why they need to be so exempt from so much of the the host countries law.
But then thats just view I cast without any real knowledge on the subject.
Skybird
10-06-19, 05:58 AM
Diplomatic immunity should include diplomats not needing to give witness confessions beforee the hosts court in national law enforcement cases, should be imune to getting arrested and interviewed about their own nations internal affairs, means and carriers of data and messages between the diplomat and his government must be included in immunity. All this is okay and necessary, but obvious offending of the hosting nations laws, speeding in the traffic and causing accidents (BIG problem in many capitols! Foreign staff often thinks the streets are their personal racetracks and parking lots), criminal charges like rape and so on - these things should not be falling under diplomatic immuniy. That they get usually covered by these as well I can only explain by the risk that foreign diplomats get interrogated and pressed under charges of criminal law - and the opportunity then beign exploited to also interrogate them on own internal political stuff that should be covered by immunity.
Maybe it would be simler if one would consider more carefull with whom one forms ties and whom one lets gain diplomatic status in one's own capitol. In other words: be more chosey in accepting your guests. Its not as if these days envoys and ambassadors in place are really necessary. in case of wanted personal contact, on could arrnage a meeting between representatives in a third country, and silently and unnoticed form the public. A day's trip, and you are done.
Finally, I have a principle issue with the concept of maintaining a strong own security force in another country. The protection of a foreign ambassador is in the hosts own best interest, and it shoukld be the host caring for it, and doing so alone. ending your envoy with a strong presence of body guards, marines and so forth, in princ9ple is no dipllatic mission, but an invasion. If the sendign nation thinks they cannot count on the security of the nation they want to send somebody to, then maybe they just should not send somebody. This way, the reputation of s hosting nation and its credibility in guaranteeing diplloatic protection, is in hands of the hosting nation.
Most of it is just höfisches Gehabe: courtly, affected behaviour. To me, it just is stage thunder and mumbojumbo. As the peasant would even care for what foreign ambassadors and envoys are residing in their own capitol. Like film stars celebrate themselves when rewardingf ilm prizes, so does the creme de la creme of political high life. Maybe I am too Vulcan for this kind of stuff, but it means nothign to me. Poltical decisions should not be formed on grounds of someboy'S elses smile or polsiuhed manners, but becasue of facts, content, data, messages's core information. The bringer of the message is irrelevant.
Envoys and ambassadors, representatives of foreign nations should know that they are being held liable for their behaviour and acts. Then they can alter their behaviour accordingly so not to collide with local laws and not causing any drama by their own impertinence.
The fleeing mother told the police she would not leave, but did. I am strongly biased against her now. Immunity should not cover this incident.
Jimbuna
10-06-19, 06:33 AM
The fleeing mother told the police she would not leave, but did. I am strongly biased against her now. Immunity should not cover this incident.
Agreed :yep:
Platapus
10-06-19, 06:48 AM
The US, or any issuing country can remove any immunity from any diplomat at any time. Normally this is done only for the most egregious and deliberate crimes.
If this woman had stayed in the country and brought to trial, what would be the most likely out come? What penalties are usually levied on UK tourists who would be involved in this sort of accident?
While the UK can PNG the Ambassador, that's a pretty serious diplomatic step. Even if the Ambassador remains in that position, the effects of this incident will severely affect his ability to perform his duties. A lot of diplomacy is done at the personal relationship level.
It will depend on exactly how much the UK cares about this incident. They can make a big deal about it or just sound like they are making a big deal about it.
Unfortunately, the US keeps confidential most information on foreign diplomats breaking US laws so it is difficult to determine that the past procedures are in these cases.
One option is that the US Ambassador to the UK may end up being recalled and replaced. The conduct of the Ambassador's wife may affect the future acceptance of the Ambassador's credentials.
However, it is not uncommon for the diplomatic relationships to overshadow the death of one individual. Shouldn't happen, but I wager it does.
How much is the UK willing to risk in its relationships with the US over this?
Jimbuna
10-06-19, 06:59 AM
I see it as, what price is a life?
Skybird
10-06-19, 06:59 AM
You volunteer to be guest in a foreign country - you play by its rules, and if not you are to be held accountable for the consequences. Thats simple, Platapus. This traffic accident was no state affair, it was a traffic accident - the American diplomatic side made it a state affair by evading the laws regulating such traffic accidents and consequences in Britain.
Its not as if she is under thread ti be skinned alive. But she ist subject to british laws in this incident, no doubt. Politics and state affairs have nothing to do with it, its a traffic accident, and she has to accept her role in it. A human person is dead. A family shattered.
British law knows rules and regulatons how to handle such accidents and exmainations. She should not enjoy immunty from having to undergo these.
The laws of the hosting nation count. If you do not like them, or are not ready to accept that - dont go there.
There will be no justice. :nope:
Platapus
10-06-19, 11:02 AM
I see it as, what price is a life?
Well if she is guilty of violating Section 1 of the Road Traffic Act of 1988 and they adjudicate her with "No aggravating circumstances" the penalty is 1-2 years in prison.
She might, of course, be tried under different statutes. I am not a UK law expert.
I feel very bad for the family and I certainly understand their desire for justice. But, nothing will bring the deceased back. Would putting this woman in jail for one or two years (which I feel is much too short a sentence for vehicular homicide or even manslaughter) make the family feel any better? Maybe a little. I don't know. It sounds callous to say it - but that almost doesn't even seem worth the trouble.
I think if I were in their place I would want this woman locked away for a very, very long time. Would that make me feel any better? Again, I don't know. And it's not something I ever wish to find out. This is just very sad.
Jimbuna
10-07-19, 03:38 AM
The 'caring mum' has been identified by the press.
I'll highlight what I consider to be the bullet (no pun intended) points for ease of reading.
The wife of a US diplomat who fatally hit a British teenager and left the country is Anne Sacoolas, Sky News can reveal.
Mrs Sacoolas, 42, has claimed diplomatic immunity and left the UK for America after 19-year-old Harry Dunn was killed in a head-on collision while riding his motorbike.
Police believe Mrs Sacoolas was on the wrong side of the road as she emerged from Northamptonshire's RAF Croughton on 27 August.
Sky News is naming her after earlier revealing a deal gives diplomats and their families at the US spy base diplomatic immunity.
Immunity usually only covers those diplomats and their dependants based in London.
However, Sky News has been told a special arrangement has been in place as early as 1994 for this particular base.
Government ministers have called for the American woman to return to the UK to answer questions about the incident.
Harry's father, Tim Dunn, told Sky News: "It's appalling, you can't have this precedence where you can have this immunity.
"It's basically saying you can do what you like and you'll be okay - it's wrong. That can't be right."
Harry's mother, Charlotte Charles, called it "inhumane".
Police told Sky News that initial findings showed Harry was on the correct side of the road, but that a woman who pulled out of the base onto the wrong side hit him head-on.
Sky News first revealed on Friday that the driver was believed to be the wife of a US diplomat.
Harry's family have launched a crowdfunding campaign to fight for justice, with one woman alone already pledging £5,000.
Ms Charles told Sky News: "If we don't get justice we'll try and use money to get the law changed so people can't kill and go away."
Business Secretary Andrea Leadsom, the family's local MP, has made an appeal for the woman to offer "closure" to the family.
She told Sky News: "I met with Harry's family on Friday and they're totally devastated.
"It's just the most appalling tragedy and my heart goes out to them. Anybody who met them would realise this is just heartbreaking.
"Obviously I'm going to do everything I can to make sure they get justice for Harry."
The US embassy has confirmed to Sky News that the woman has left the UK.
It is understood that someone on the American side told the family to go back to the US.
A spokesperson said: "This kind of case receives intense attention at senior levels and every case is considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry."
Cabinet minister Robert Jenrick told Sky News that Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab had spoken to the US ambassador and "made clear our disappointment that the woman involved in this incident has left the UK using diplomatic immunity".
Sky News has tried to contact Mrs Sacoolas for comment but was unable to do so as she has not returned to her original address in the US.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/identity-revealed-of-us-diplomats-wife-who-fatally-hit-british-teen/ar-AAImHlN?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
Sentencing should depends on some other variables too really, she was driving on the wrong side, so yes it can just be a simple accident from that, and its ultimately her fault.
But what of the other details.
e.g was she doing anything else wrong?, speeding, talking on her phone? etc. was the victim being careless in any way? where did it happen, on a bend, straight, junction? how was visibility and road conditions?. What (if any) last minute actions were taken?
Is she the only living witness?
Skybird
10-07-19, 06:17 AM
I feel very bad for the family and I certainly understand their desire for justice. But, nothing will bring the deceased back. Would putting this woman in jail for one or two years (which I feel is much too short a sentence for vehicular homicide or even manslaughter) make the family feel any better? Maybe a little. I don't know. It sounds callous to say it - but that almost doesn't even seem worth the trouble.
I think if I were in their place I would want this woman locked away for a very, very long time. Would that make me feel any better? Again, I don't know. And it's not something I ever wish to find out. This is just very sad.
Its about the rule of law.
And as somebody who has been on the receiving end of such an incident (my fiance was killed by a drunk driver and got away with a ridiculous joke of an alibi penalty, he later drove drunk again and caused another crash with injured people; then, my mum had her pregnant sister and her newly wed husband wiped out out by another drunk ghost driver on the Autobahn, and he too got away extremely cheaply), I can tell you that at least functioning laws and court procedure help victims to avoid being hit a second time by the law cheating on them. You cannot imagine the shattered sense for justice and lost trust in the law with events like this not beign sanctioned according to the valid rules.This woman has bypassed the rules, she avoids the rules, she escapes from her share of respjnsiblity in the event. And this is bitter for the family whose life she has destroyed.
Not it does not brign back the dead. But it can help to sooth the soul a little bit. Just a little bit.
Myself, its roughly three deacdes ago. I have never forgiven the court, and I never will. The loss I have have gotten over, somehow, life moved on, but I stayed single. The disgust and rage for the judge who set the offender free for just a symbolic penalty and in "good hope", only to see the scumbag doing the same stunt again and again causing calamity - this skunk I will never stop to hate. And the murderer (I call it that, I hold people accoutnbale for how much they drink and not liockign away their car keys before they start) is better never left alone with me in one room.
This American woman must be brought to a British court or police investigation or whatever the British law commands. Not the American law - the British law is what counts here. Not for revenge. Not for retaliation. But because the law demands it. And decorum expects it.
Jimbuna
10-07-19, 08:24 AM
The prime minister has urged the US to reconsider giving a diplomat's wife immunity after she left the UK despite being a suspect in a fatal crash.
Anne Sacoolas is wanted for questioning over the death of motorcyclist Harry Dunn in Northamptonshire on 27 August.
The US State Department said diplomatic immunity was "rarely waived".
Boris Johnson said the UK would speak to the US ambassador and "if we can't resolve it then... I will be raising it myself with the White House".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49961679
I'd like to think that Trump would agree with her extradition but I somehow doubt it taking into consideration a forthcoming election.
Police told Sky News that initial findings showed Harry was on the correct side of the road, but that a woman who pulled out of the base onto the wrong side hit him head-on.
I am certainly not supporting or condoning the womans actions in this case especially the running to avoid taking responsibility part, but having driven on English roads myself I can attest how disconcertingly easy it is to do this. Intersection turns seemed to be particularly troublesome. Every fiber of my being wanted to turn tight on a right turn and turn loose when going left. "Righty-tightey Lefty-loosey" took no small amount of effort to ignore such ingrained instincts.
Whoever decided to have everyone drive on the opposite side of the road, probably just to be different, should burn in hell.
Jimbuna
10-08-19, 10:47 AM
but having driven on English roads myself I can attest how disconcertingly easy it is to do this. Intersection turns seemed to be particularly troublesome. Every fiber of my being wanted to turn tight on a right turn and turn loose when going left. "Righty-tightey Lefty-loosey" took no small amount of effort to ignore such ingrained instincts.
Must agree with you there but in the exact opposite context having driven across most of Europe over the years.
Nearly 75% of countries in the world require drivers to drive on the right side of traffic and tt is theorized that left-handed traffic began in the days of horse travel. The left-sided position but them at the advantage of having easy access to their sword with their right-handed in case of an enemy encounter.
A list of left sided driving countries.
Anguilla
Antigua and Barbuda
Australia
Bangladesh
Barbados
Bermuda
Bhutan
Botswana
British Virgin Islands
Brunei
Cayman Islands
Christmas Island
Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Cook Islands
Cyprus
Dominica
East Timor
Eswatini
Falkland Islands
Fiji
Grenada
Guernsey
Guyana
Hong Kong
India
Indonesia
Ireland
Isle of Man
Jamaica
Japan
Jersey
Kenya
Kiribati
Lesotho
Macau
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Malta
Mauritius
Mauritius
Montserrat
Mozambique
Namibia
Nauru
Nepal
New Zealand
Niue
Norfolk Island
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Pitcairn Islands
Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa
Seychelles
Seychelles
Singapore
Solomon Islands
South Africa
South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
Sri Lanka
Suriname
Tanzania
Thailand
The Bahamas
Tokelau
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Turks and Caicos
Tuvalu
U. S. Virgin Islands
Uganda
United Kingdom
Zambia
Zimbabwe
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/list-of-countries-who-drive-on-the-left.html
Jimbuna
10-08-19, 11:24 AM
It would appear she already has a previous driving conviction for “failure to pay full time and attention”
Anne Sacoolas, 42, was fined £200 for being distracted behind the wheel near her home in Virginia in November 2006.
The charge “failure to pay full time and attention” usually relates to drivers caught making calls at the wheel or traffic lane discipline.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/us-spy-wife-who-fled-britain-after-crash-that-killed-teen-has-driving-conviction/ar-AAIqShU?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
IMHO that makes her a 'repeat offender'
Aktungbby
10-08-19, 12:28 PM
https://images.wsj.net/im-114341?width=620&size=1.5
LONDON—British Prime Minister Boris Johnson called Monday for a U.S. diplomat’s wife who police say was involved in a fatal car crash to return to the U.K., saying she shouldn’t have used diplomatic immunity to leave the country.
The intervention followed the death of 19-year-old Harry Dunn in August after his motorcycle collided with a car near a Royal Air Force base in Northamptonshire, central England, that is used by the U.S. as a communications station.
Anne Sacoolas, the wife of a U.S. official, left the U.K. shortly after the accident, according to police and the victim’s family.
Northamptonshire police said the 42-year-old American woman was a suspect in an investigation into the crash and had “previously confirmed to us that she had no plans to leave the country in the near future.”
Mr. Johnson urged Ms. Sacoolas to return.
“I hope that Anne Sacoolas will come back and will engage properly with the processes of law as they are carried out in this country,” Mr. Johnson (https://www.wsj.com/articles/boris-johnsons-irish-border-plan-leaves-companies-fretting-11570281036?mod=article_inline) said in a television interview. “If we can’t resolve it, then of course I will be raising it myself personally with the White House.”
A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy declined to comment on the identity of the driver of the car involved in the crash.
“Any questions regarding a waiver of the immunity with regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels and are considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry; immunity is rarely waived,” the embassy spokesman said.
The U.S. ambassador in London has already been petitioned by British Foreign Minister Dominic Raab for Ms. Sacoolas’s diplomatic immunity to be waived. Nick Adderley, the police chief in Northamptonshire, has also written to the embassy urging a waiver.
Mr. Dunn’s family said they wanted Ms. Sacoolas to return so that they can begin to grieve the death of their son.
“I wouldn’t want to think that she put herself on that plane to go home to avoid what she’s done,” Charlotte Charles, the mother of Harry Dunn told the British Broadcasting Corp.
Ms. Charles added that she was told at the time of her son’s death that Ms. Sacoolas had no intention of leaving the U.K.
Ms. Sacoolas couldn’t be reached for comment.
It is unclear what the U.K. could do to force Ms. Sacoolas’s return. Under the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, diplomats and their families are immune from the criminal jurisdictions of their host state. However, that immunity can be waived by their home country.
“I do not think that it can be right to use the process of diplomatic immunity for this type of purpose,” said Mr. Johnson. I SUSPECT THE DIPLOMATIC WHEELS ARE CURRENTLY IN MOTION AND THERE WILL BE A RESOLUTION IN THE MATTER...
Jimbuna
10-08-19, 12:33 PM
I sincerely hope so.
Aktungbby
10-08-19, 12:37 PM
Anne Sacoolas, 42, was fined £200 for being distracted behind the wheel near her home in Virginia in November 2006.
I'D NO IDEA FINES WEREN'T PAID IN DOLLARS IN THE STATE OF VIRGINIA....FAKE NEWS!:yep:
Jimbuna
10-08-19, 01:10 PM
I'D NO IDEA FINES WEREN'T PAID IN DOLLARS IN THE STATE OF VIRGINIA....FAKE NEWS!:yep:
I'm thinking a conversion has been done to show the value of the fine to a British readership.
Platapus
10-08-19, 02:46 PM
I wonder if there was, as they say "alcohol involved"?
I understand that the Brits have little sense of humour about such things
Must agree with you there but in the exact opposite context having driven across most of Europe over the years.
Nearly 75% of countries in the world require drivers to drive on the right side of traffic and tt is theorized that left-handed traffic began in the days of horse travel. The left-sided position but them at the advantage of having easy access to their sword with their right-handed in case of an enemy encounter.
Yeah and i've heard the right handed traffic began as a question; "What side of the road should we use?" The "Right Side" of course! :)
But what is sad is that there was a time that a standard could have been instituted without any real inconvenience to either group, but now there's no fixing it without huge infrastructure changes and major major carnage.
Platapus
10-08-19, 04:46 PM
It might be a bad decision for the UK to change after this long.
The Swedes did that.
http://realscandinavia.com/this-day-in-history-swedish-traffic-switches-sides-september-3-1967/
http://realscandinavia.com/files/2014/09/kungsgatan1967.jpg
I remember old friends and relatives telling me who chaotic it was the first couple of weeks.
I also remember a documentary on Swedish tv some years back
The first 3-4 month or so there was an increase of incident(as mentioned in the article)
But what the article forgot to mention, was that 5 or was it 10 years after this change of traffic, the scientist(don't know the correct English word) could see by comparing the statistic 5 or 10 years before the change a huge reduction of accident in the traffic.
Markus
Bilge_Rat
10-09-19, 12:26 PM
it is an unfortunate situation, but no, I don't see the U.S. waiving diplomatic immunity over a traffic accident.
Diplomatic immunity is a fundamental pricinciple and exists so that a foreign country does not detain diplomats on bogus charges just to put pressure on the Diplomat's home country. Not saying the UK would do it, but once you establish a precedent, other countries will use it in the future.
When I lived in Ottawa, the City government was always complaining about diplomatic vehicles (which were easy to identify because their cars all had red license plates), since they routinely ignored parking and traffic rules, ignoring all traffic tickets and often causing traffic jams or even accidents. The only recourse when a diplomat was really abusing the system was for the External Affairs department to complain to their host country and have them recalled.
Platapus
10-09-19, 05:05 PM
I think the issue is that this is not just a traffic accident, it was the killing of someone
Some other sources are claiming that this individual may not actually have diplomatic immunity.
Something like this should be easy to determine. Diplomatic Immunity is like being pregnant. Either you have or you don't have Diplomatic Immunity depending on the credentials.
Jimbuna
10-10-19, 05:36 AM
A woman at the centre of a row over diplomatic immunity will not return to the UK, according to briefing notes held by US President Donald Trump.
Anne Sacoolas is suspected of being involved in a car crash that killed British motorcyclist Harry Dunn, who died in Northamptonshire on 27 August.
Mrs Sacoolas later left the UK to return home to the US, after telling local police she had no such plans.
The note was photographed as Mr Trump addressed reporters at the White House.
It reads: "(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo told Foreign Secretary Raab, that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom."
Mr Dunn's mother Charlotte Charles said the US's apparent approach was "beyond any realm of human thinking".
Speaking to Sky News about the photograph of the notes, Mrs Charles said: "I'm just disgusted.
"I don't see the point in Boris Johnson talking to President Trump, or President Trump even taking a call from Boris Johnson.
"If he'd already made his decision that if it were to be asked and if it were to be raised, the answer was already going to be no."
Downing Street confirmed Mr Johnson had urged the US president to reconsider the decision to grant immunity to Mrs Sacoolas.
At the press briefing, Mr Trump called Mr Dunn's death a "terrible accident" and confirmed his administration would seek to speak to Mrs Sacoolas.
Police have said CCTV of the crash in which the teenager died shows a Volvo travelling on the wrong side of the road.
Speaking at the press briefing on Wednesday evening - after his conversation with the prime minister - Mr Trump said: "The woman was driving on the wrong side of the road, and that can happen.
"You know, those are the opposite roads, that happens. I won't say it ever happened to me, but it did.
"So a young man was killed, the person that was driving the automobile has diplomatic immunity, we're going to speak to her very shortly and see if we can do something where they meet."
The crash in which Mr Dunn died happened close to RAF Croughton, a US Air Force communications station, where Mrs Sacoolas's husband Jonathan worked.
Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley said, "based on CCTV evidence", officers knew "a vehicle alighted from the RAF base at Croughton" and was "on the wrong side of the road".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49995867
https://i.postimg.cc/tCxPqrRt/Untitled.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/dVcCL8LM/Untitled2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Looks to me like talk is cheap and hardly surprising when you take into consideration how much the POTUS has been spouting over recent years :nope:
I hope her conscience is killing her right now, but with her leaving the country the way she did, she doesn't have a conscience. But you know what they say about Karma, it can come around and pay a visit to her too, wish I could be there when it happens.
Jimbuna
10-11-19, 07:17 AM
You and me both matey.
Send her a winning sweepstakes ticket. A lifetime supply of Spotted Dick or something like that, but she has to go to Bermuda or some other Brit owned territory in order to collect. When she shows you swoop in!
Jimbuna
10-13-19, 05:05 AM
The US diplomat's wife granted immunity after the crash which killed teenager Harry Dunn is "devastated by the tragic accident", her lawyer has said.
Anne Sacoolas's legal representative, Amy Jeffress, said she would "continue to co-operate with the investigation".
Mrs Sacoolas, 42, left for the US under diplomatic immunity despite being a suspect in the crash with Mr Dunn, 19, in Northamptonshire on 27 August.
But the Foreign Office said, having gone home, she no longer has immunity.
A statement issued on behalf of Mrs Sacoolas, whose husband worked at RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire, said: "Anne is devastated by this tragic accident.
"No loss compares to the death of a child and Anne extends her deepest sympathy to Harry Dunn's family."
It added she had "fully co-operated with the police".
"She spoke with authorities at the scene of the accident and met with the Northampton police at her home the following day. She will continue to co-operate with the investigation," the statement continued.
"Anne would like to meet with Mr Dunn's parents so that she can express her deepest sympathies and apologies for this tragic accident.
"We have been in contact with the family's attorneys and look forward to hearing from them."
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab wrote to Mr Dunn's family on Saturday to explain both the British and US governments now considered Mrs Sacoolas' immunity irrelevant.
The letter said: "We have pressed strongly for a waiver of immunity, so that justice can be done... Whilst the US government has steadfastly declined to give that waiver, that is not the end of the matter.
"We have looked at this very carefully... the UK government's position is that immunity, and therefore any question of waiver, is no longer relevant in Mrs Sacoolas's case, because she has returned home.
"The US have now informed us that they too consider that immunity is no longer pertinent."
"We'll continue to fight for change to the diplomatic immunity laws and any other positive changes we can achieve."
Mark Stephens, a lawyer for the Dunn family said: "She was allowed to, or encouraged to be spirited away on an American transport plane and effectively rendered a fugitive from British justice.
"And now of course we find out that she's not entitled to diplomatic immunity, and in those circumstances she is in a foreign land a fugitive from British justice.
"We do hope she returns herself voluntarily and that this was just a bad piece of advice she received from the American authorities."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50030750
She should now do the right thing and return to the UK.
Ahead of her departure from the UK, Ms Charles told Sky's Lisa Dowd: "My opinion on Anne Sacoolas now wanting to come forward and say sorry - to be perfectly honest, yes it's the start of some closure for our family.
"Having said that, as it's nearly seven weeks now since we lost our boy, sorry just doesn't cut it.
"That's not really quite enough. But I'm still really open to meeting her, as are the rest of us. I can't promise what I would or wouldn't say, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive."
https://news.sky.com/story/harry-dunn-mum-says-sorry-doesnt-cut-it-ahead-of-meeting-with-us-diplomats-wife-11834129
I can't say I blame them for feeling bitter.
Platapus
10-13-19, 11:05 AM
Might be some room in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London. Might have to clean up some poop first though.
Jimbuna
10-14-19, 10:17 AM
Anne Sacoolas's legal representative, Amy Jeffress, said she would "continue to co-operate with the investigation".
How the hell is she going to do that if she's hiding from justice in her own country?
Jimbuna
10-14-19, 12:38 PM
The parents of Harry Dunn, 19, say they will only meet the US woman allegedly involved if she promises to return to Britain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50038999
Platapus
10-14-19, 03:07 PM
How the hell is she going to do that if she's hiding from justice in her own country?
We call that cooperation from a safe distance. :D
Jimbuna
10-15-19, 07:09 AM
We call that cooperation from a safe distance. :D
I'm thinking she's hoping time will dampen down the matter but I doubt that will be the case.
I'm thinking she's hoping time will dampen down the matter but I doubt that will be the case.
Wait a bit then send her winning sweepstakes tickets for a seven day all expenses paid vacation trip to sunny Bermuda or other extraditable part of the empire. :03:
I remember a similar story from Sweden
I can't remember which decade or year and which country this diplomat came from-My memory says Soviet.
A diplomat had commit some type of crime and was expelled by the Swedish government, because of this and because he used his diplomacy to prevent from being arrested by Swedish police.
If my memory doesn't play tricks with me
He had, as a goodwill between these to states, his diplomacy removed and prosecuted and got a sentence.
Markus
Jimbuna
10-16-19, 05:35 AM
Harry Dunn's parents have rejected the chance to meet the suspect in their son's crash death after Donald Trump dropped the "bombshell" that she was in the room next door at the White House.
Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn felt "a little ambushed" by the offer made by the US president.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50064595
You know something, I try very hard not to insult other world leaders, especially those who some believe to be our allies, even more so when taking into consideration the political choices for leadership we currently face in the UK.
What on earth was the POTUS thinking :hmmm:
:nope:
Thinking is not one of Trump's strong points...
<O>
Jimbuna
10-16-19, 12:57 PM
The US woman accused of involvement in the crash which killed Harry Dunn has said she was "disappointed" not to have met his family.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50070481
That's a bit rich, wanting to meet on terms favourable to her when she was the one who ran away.
She forgets she is the one suspected of taking someones childs life and as such should be returning to the UK to state her case.
Platapus
10-16-19, 04:16 PM
What on earth was the POTUS thinking :hmmm:
:nope:
In my opinion, our PotUS does not think, he reacts emotionally with what ever will provide immediate satisfaction with little concern for strategic thought.
This is why he appears to backtrack and contradict himself. One decision is not related to another decision to him. Each one is determined by what will provide him with the emotional satisfaction at that moment.
He may, actually be surprised when people call him out on his flip-flopping.
Rockstar
10-16-19, 04:55 PM
I dont get it, some articles will say the Dunn family flew to the U.S. with the express purpose of meeting Mrs. Sacoolas. Others say they were instead shocked and felt ambushed by her presence at the White House. What am I missing here? My guess is the Dunn family was just ticked off they couldn't capitalize on any media attention.
https://www.voanews.com/usa/teens-parents-fly-us-hoping-meet-driver-who-killed-him
Buddahaid
10-16-19, 05:19 PM
What's the message being sent here? The UK should just expel a few diplomats. Maybe Trump will explode or something.
d@rk51d3
10-16-19, 05:24 PM
News here was that Hubby wasn't actually serving as a diplomat..... no immunity. :06:
You know something, I try very hard not to insult other world leaders, especially those who some believe to be our allies, even more so when taking into consideration the political choices for leadership we currently face in the UK.
What on earth was the POTUS thinking :hmmm:
:nope:
I don't think there was any ill intent Jim.
Maybe he just wanted to give the family the opportunity to speak to their sons killer face to face because circumstances had made it possible (and may not be otherwise). It's not like he had the woman hauled in, she asked for it (and BTW i agree that boat don't float) and it's not like the family was forced to meet her. She offered and they declined, all Trump did was to facilitate it and he's the one they get mad at.
Now maybe it was a dumb idea but I am not sure what else Trump could do here one way or the other. I'm not lawyer but i am pretty sure he can't just hand over a civilian US Citizen to a foreign country regardless of how much he empathised, especially one that has not even been charged with a crime. I guess we'll have to see it anything pans out from this different angle he mentioned.
Now from what I understand it was your government that asked the President to meet with the family right? I assume that HMG knows what POTUS can and can't do so if it wasn't for the family to convince Trump to return the woman to the UK what was the real purpose behind their request?
Jimbuna
10-17-19, 04:44 AM
I don't think there was any ill intent Jim.
Maybe he just wanted to give the family the opportunity to speak to their sons killer face to face because circumstances had made it possible (and may not be otherwise). It's not like he had the woman hauled in, she asked for it (and BTW i agree that boat don't float) and it's not like the family was forced to meet her. She offered and they declined, all Trump did was to facilitate it and he's the one they get mad at.
Now maybe it was a dumb idea but I am not sure what else Trump could do here one way or the other. I'm not lawyer but i am pretty sure he can't just hand over a civilian US Citizen to a foreign country regardless of how much he empathised, especially one that has not even been charged with a crime. I guess we'll have to see it anything pans out from this different angle he mentioned.
Now from what I understand it was your government that asked the President to meet with the family right? I assume that HMG knows what POTUS can and can't do so if it wasn't for the family to convince Trump to return the woman to the UK what was the real purpose behind their request?
I guess very few if any know what goes through the POTUS head despite all and sundry claiming that they do but I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say it may have been a dumb idea. At the very least, the family should have been forewarned of Sacoolas presence, someone in the White House invited her to attend and I'm 100% confident it would have been on the instruction of the POTUS.
Sacoolas was not charged for committing a crime, on that you are quite correct but it is obvious that was the consequence of her fleeing the UK despite informing the Police she had no plans to do so.
My understanding of the boys parents intentions are that they went to the US to seek public support through media channels etc. and in so doing obviously made it known they would like a face to face meeting with Sacoolas but Trump in his eternal wisdom thought he could control and manage said meeting.
Her actions post incident speak volumes for her innocence or otherwise and she should do the decent thing and return to the UK and face justice instead of hiding behind a smokescreen of diplomatic immunity which apparently is very questionable.
but Trump in his eternal wisdom thought he could control and manage said meeting.
But do you really think that he couldn't control such a meeting in his own White House Jim?
Jimbuna
10-18-19, 07:16 AM
But do you really think that he couldn't control such a meeting in his own White House Jim?
Of course he could but it wasn't any of his business. Any meeting between both parties must surely be on their joint pre-agreed terms.
Skybird
10-18-19, 08:28 AM
Trump wanted to parasitize by posing with the family that attracts sympathy from which he hoped to get his share.
A bit like - more materialistically - he abuses his position to demand that international conferences and next year the G7 summit again must be held in hotels/ressorts belonging to his business empire. Money to his business. Advertising worldwide for free.
Jimbuna
10-18-19, 11:37 AM
Harry Dunn's parents say they expect UK police to charge a US diplomat's wife in connection with his death.
Radd Seiger, the family's spokesman, said they have concerns of "misconduct and a cover up on both sides of the Atlantic".
A statement from the family said: "It is clear that the Americans are desperate to protect Mrs Sacoolas and are intent on ruthlessly and aggressively not letting her return. We are trying to find out why that is. We will not let up in our search for Justice for Harry.
"We now expect Northants Police to take over from the work we have done and the progress we have made, charge her and begin extradition proceedings to bring her back."
Mrs Sacoolas can only be extradited if she is charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) with a criminal offence that is serious enough to warrant it.
Northants Police confirmed they were continuing to prepare evidence to hand over to the CPS.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50096928
Extradition even if successful could take years of legal wrangling.
Of course he could but it wasn't any of his business. Any meeting between both parties must surely be on their joint pre-agreed terms.
But there wasn't a meeting Jim. It was an offer of a meeting. That a big difference. Just because they had the woman ready to meet doesn't mean the family had to meet her right then, or ever for that matter.
Jimbuna
10-19-19, 06:16 AM
Dave we can both play around with semantics till the cows come home but as far as I'm concerned Trump attempted to interfere beyond the point of what the boys parents were led to believe was on offer and that was a meeting with a senior White House official. Meeting Trump might have been a bonus, depending on what the individual thinks of the man.
I'm of the opinion he went above and beyond what was necessary, some might call it grandstanding to the media and in coming to my opinion the simple test I base my opinion on is "How would I have felt if Ann (my wife) and I were suddenly and without prior warning put into that situation."
The bottom line for me is the fact that someone lost their life possibly because of the actions of another person. That person fled the country to evade justice despite stating they had no such intentions.
Let the courts decide a justifiable outcome.
Jimbuna
10-22-19, 05:53 AM
The suspect in a crash that killed Harry Dunn will be interviewed under caution in the United States, British police have said.
Mr Dunn, 19, died in a crash outside RAF Croughton with a car owned by US citizen Anne Sacoolas, who later left the UK claiming diplomatic immunity.
Chief Constable Nick Adderley said Mrs Sacoolas had requested the interview.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50134394
Looks to me like a step in the right direction.
Bilge_Rat
10-22-19, 09:17 AM
Extradition even if successful could take years of legal wrangling.
pie in the sky wishful thinking as far as I am concerned:
1. I have not seen one shred of evidence so far that this was anything other than a tragic accident, so no reason to waive "diplomatic immunity". Notice also that no one in the U.S. is asking for this which is the real litmus test;
2. Even if they do decide to charge mrs. Sacoolas and try to extradite her (assuming diplomatic immunity is waived), the British Government would have to present its evidence in a U.S. Court and convince a U.S. judge that there was enough evidence of an actual criminal act;
3. Honestly, this is actually the reason why diplomatic immunity exist. This is becoming a political footbal in the UK, where everyone just wants to punish and lock up the "Ugly American". No one in the U.S. will agree to waive diplomatic immunity, just to have mrs. Sacoolas locked up in the UK for 2-3 years while she is awaiting trial where there is no real evidence of a crime;
Jimbuna
10-22-19, 12:39 PM
pie in the sky wishful thinking as far as I am concerned:
1. I have not seen one shred of evidence so far that this was anything other than a tragic accident, so no reason to waive "diplomatic immunity". Notice also that no one in the U.S. is asking for this which is the real litmus test;
2. Even if they do decide to charge mrs. Sacoolas and try to extradite her (assuming diplomatic immunity is waived), the British Government would have to present its evidence in a U.S. Court and convince a U.S. judge that there was enough evidence of an actual criminal act;
3. Honestly, this is actually the reason why diplomatic immunity exist. This is becoming a political footbal in the UK, where everyone just wants to punish and lock up the "Ugly American". No one in the U.S. will agree to waive diplomatic immunity, just to have mrs. Sacoolas locked up in the UK for 2-3 years while she is awaiting trial where there is no real evidence of a crime;
1. I also believe this to be a tragic accident and diplomatic immunity no longer applies because her husband has left his post.
2. How about the video footage the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) currently has?
3. This has nothing to do with punishing the "Ugly American" Don't lose sight of the fact a young man lost his life due to the alleged actions of somebody and when I wore the uniform causing death by careless or reckless driving was and still is a criminal offence here in the UK, an offence that could warrant a prison sentence of up to five years.
It is currently being stated in the press that she has asked for the interview to take place, just a pity she hadn't felt that way before she fled the UK despite assuring the Police she had no intentions of doing so.
Bilge_Rat
10-22-19, 01:03 PM
1. I also believe this to be a tragic accident and diplomatic immunity no longer applies because her husband has left his post.
Hi, I read that also, but that argument does not make any legal sense. You cannot prosecute a diplomat when he is in the UK, but as soon as he leaves, you can extradite him/her back to the UK and then charge him?
I have been a lawyer long enough to know that no U.S. or Canadian Court would accept that argument.
3. This has nothing to do with punishing the "Ugly American" Don't lose sight of the fact a young man lost his life due to the alleged actions of somebody and when I wore the uniform causing death by careless or reckless driving was and still is a criminal offence here in the UK, an offence that could warrant a prison sentence of up to five years.
Agreed, and in a case of a serious crime, countries will waive diplomatic immunity. If this was an intentional murder or she was drunk while driving, the UK might potentially have a case.
Criminal negligence, which is what we are talking about here, requires a reckless disregard for the consequences of your action. Just driving on the wrong side of the road, late at night, when you are tired and unfamiliar with driving on the left side of the road (which is no doubt what her lawyers will claim) does not rise to that standard.
Jimbuna
10-23-19, 04:16 AM
Matters should become clearer after she has given a statement under oath. Then it will be up to the CPS how they want to proceed.
I notice you didn't respond to point 2. There may be some incriminating evidence contained within the footage but that will only be made public if a trial is instigated.
Bilge_Rat
10-23-19, 08:36 AM
I notice you didn't respond to point 2. There may be some incriminating evidence contained within the footage but that will only be made public if a trial is instigated.
well no, obviously if there is incriminating evidence in the video, that might change things.
Jimbuna
10-31-19, 06:49 AM
Police investigating the death of 19-year-old Harry Dunn have interviewed crash suspect Anne Sacoolas in the US.
Northamptonshire Police said details of the interview had been passed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).
Supt Sarah Johnson said: "We can confirm that we have completed an interview of the suspect in connection with the death of Harry Dunn, the details of which will be provided to the CPS for consideration alongside the rest of the evidential file already submitted."
The family has already launched legal action against the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-50249290
I should imagine this will be the beginning of a long drawn out affair.
Jimbuna
11-07-19, 07:21 AM
Harry Dunn, the teenager who died after his motorbike was in a collision with a car driven by the wife of a US diplomat, lay by the side of the road for 43 minutes before an ambulance arrived because the urgency of his case was “wrongly categorised”.
The 19-year-old died in hospital. His motorcycle had been hit on 27 August this year near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, in the UK, by a car being driven by Anne Sacoolas on the wrong side of the road.
The ambulance service listed his injuries as category 2 requiring an ambulance within 40 minutes. If he had been classified as category 1 the ambulance should have arrived within seven minutes.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/harry-dunn-death-ambulance-delay-left-teenager-untreated-on-road-for-43-minutes/ar-AAJXvQh?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
It has been suggested by the ambulance service that whether it was a category 1 or category 2 wouldn’t have made a difference because the doctors were too far away.
Rockstar
11-08-19, 09:46 PM
So, the intent for Categories 2, 3 and 4 is to ensure that patients in these categories who require transportation receive a conveying resource in a timeframe that is appropriate to their clinical needs. Therefore, if a patient requires transportation in an emergency, the clock will only stop when the conveying resource arrives.
Id suggest that somebody screwed up the onscene assement of Harry Dunn clinical needs If an ambulance arrived sooner maybe Harry Dunn would still be alive?
sounds like a typical government run operation. If I was in Ms. Soocalas shoes I probably would fled the country too instead of getting caught up in this debacle as a scapegoat.
If I was in Ms. Soocalas shoes I probably would fled the country too instead of getting caught up in this debacle as a scapegoat.
But she is far more than a scapegoat. She was the one who caused the accident.
Rockstar
11-09-19, 01:54 PM
I understand that, accidents happen, even deadly ones and indeed I feel for the family and their loss. But because they are considered accidents the living that I know of are not prosecuted or go to jail. I suspect being involved in an accident in a foreign land isn't a great place to be in. Nobody gives a crap about the truth, as this topic shows argument shifts gear directly into politics, flags and borders. I know I wouldn't want to be the center of attention in a political tit for tat dispute in foreign land. Id want get the hell out of dodge as soon as possible before the the lynch mob showed up.
It's now becoming apparent there may have been other contributing factors to this young mans death. The idea that someones on scene medical assessment determines an ambulance response time is ludicrous. I have gone on many calls and it was balls to the wall every time.
Jimbuna
12-21-19, 07:46 AM
A US woman will be charged with causing the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn by dangerous driving.
Mr Dunn, 19, died in a road crash in Northamptonshire in August that led to suspect Anne Sacoolas leaving for the US under diplomatic immunity.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said it had started extradition proceedings through the Home Office.
US officials said it was not "a helpful development" and Mrs Sacoolas' lawyer said she would not return to the UK.
Lawyer Amy Jefress said: "Anne will not return voluntarily to the UK to face a potential jail sentence for what was a terrible but unintentional accident."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50870459
Suddenly it sounds like not going back there to "discuss" the incident with authorities was some pretty good legal advice seeing as this is what they intended to do all along.
Jimbuna
12-21-19, 08:10 PM
The US has never refused a request for extradition in over 100 years.
I believe this will be about to change and the world will see precisely how previous attitudes and values no longer exist.
The US has never refused a request for extradition in over 100 years.
Before we talk about changing attitudes and values have we ever had to wave diplomatic immunity in order to grant an extradition request? Has HM government ever done so for us or any other nation?
Platapus
12-22-19, 06:08 PM
IN many minds, Americans are special and the rules don't apply to us :nope:
What would have happened if the roles and countries were reversed?
Can we first establish that it has actually happened before? Has any country ever waived diplomatic immunity? I have no idea and I am curious to know.
Jimbuna
12-22-19, 08:49 PM
IN many minds, Americans are special and the rules don't apply to us :nope:
What would have happened if the roles and countries were reversed?
A good valid point :yep:
Rockstar
12-22-19, 09:42 PM
IN many minds, Americans are special and the rules don't apply to us :nope:
What would have happened if the roles and countries were reversed?
Instead of getting all emotional, dramatic and whiny about cases we really have no clue about other than what the latest headlines tells us to think. I would hope the United States would honor the current agreements and conventions regarding diplomatic immunity. Which at this time under article 37 of the Vienna Convention applies to family members. If things need to be changed then citizens of the sending and receiving states should urge their OWN government to enter new bilateral agreements.
Jimbuna
12-23-19, 04:55 AM
My understanding is that the charge brought before a UK judge is to be Causing Death by Dangerous Driving.
Moonlight
12-23-19, 03:23 PM
Can we first establish that it has actually happened before? Has any country ever waived diplomatic immunity? I have no idea and I am curious to know.
Georgian diplomat ordered to remain in United States.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9701/10/georgia.diplomat/index.html
January 10, 1997
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The high-ranking Georgian diplomat suspected of driving drunk in a high-speed car accident that killed a 16-year-old girl was ordered by his government Friday to remain in the United States pending the outcome of the investigation.
"Makharadze's lawyers said in a statement that their client was an "unwitting political pawn" who "has never had a brush with the law."
Lawyers Paul Perito and Kirby Behre said Makharadze's rights had been violated by "the circus-like atmosphere" surrounding the highly publicized case.
Georgian Diplomat Pleads Guilty in Death of Teen-Age Girl
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/09/us/georgian-diplomat-pleads-guilty-in-death-of-teen-age-girl.html
Georgian diplomat ordered to remain in United States.
Well that is certainly an example although the circumstances are a bit different.
Jimbuna
12-23-19, 08:36 PM
Well that is certainly an example although the circumstances are a bit different.
Agreed :yep:
Onkel Neal
12-23-19, 10:03 PM
I believe when you're in a foreign country, their rules and laws apply to you. In this case, fleeing the country under diplomatic immunity instead of coming forward and giving testimony in the investigation is the kind of political-swamp behavior that gives us a bad name.
I believe when you're in a foreign country, their rules and laws apply to you. In this case, fleeing the country under diplomatic immunity instead of coming forward and giving testimony in the investigation is the kind of political-swamp behavior that gives us a bad name.
Well that is easy to say when you're not the one facing a couple decades in a foreign prison.
Rockstar
12-23-19, 10:28 PM
Sounds like a great idea. Don't like a diplomat then whisk them away during the night because, well, he broke one of our laws! However this https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf .prevents that from happening. Both the U.S. and Britain are in agreement with this convention. A government can ASK for a waiver but the othrer need not grant it. Leaving the only other choice to expell the diplomat.
I'm glad she claimed diplomatic immunity and left, I would have done the same thing. Last I heard that kid was left on the ground ALIVE for about 40 minutes before an ambulance arrived and he died in hospital. As I said before I would be terrified to be in a dreadful accident in a foreign land when the media drama and emotions run high and pretty much have condemned me before a trial. I would want to get the hell out of there.
Have your trial Id be interested to find out if his death could have been prevented had he received proper and timely treatment. According to other sources, Mrs Sacoolas stayed at the scene until the ambulance had arrived and police allowed her to leave. One only need to read this thread and understand why I think she did the right thing by claiming diplomatic immunity and left the country. It turned political hell even Trump was added to the argument here. That's pathetic and shows to me the poor woman would have never gotten a fair shake.
Well that is easy to say when you're not the one facing a couple decades in a foreign prison.
Couple of decades?
The maximum is 14 years, the minimum is twelve months.
Bilge_Rat
12-24-19, 12:58 PM
Looks like a politically motivated prosecution to me. The U.S. is right to deny extradition since it does not appear mrs . Sacoolas would get a fair trial.
Based on what we know so far, there is no evidence to support a criminal charge of "dangerous driving" which implies either a wanton disregard for the consequences of her actions or intentional dangerous driving, neither of which can be supported by the facts as we know them.
1. Mrs Sacoolas left the base late at night;
2. She was accompanied by her teenage child in the car;
3. She had been in the UK for three weeks;
4. She had not been drinking alcohol or was under the influence of drugs;
5. After the accident, she called the police and stayed with mr.Dunn until they arrived;
6. She cooperated with police at the scene of the accident and submitted to a breathalyzer test.
The "dangerous driving" charge is only based on the fact that she was driving on the wrong side of the road, but UK prosecutors have to prove the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. There is already more than reasonable doubt that this was just an unfortunate accident since: she had only been in the UK 3 weeks; it was late at night; she was not used to driving on the left side of the road.
If she did go back voluntarily, she would be denied bail and held in jail for 12-18 months or more until the trial, but even if found guilty, she is unlikely to receive more than 12-24 months in jail. If she is found innocent, as is likely, she will still have spent substantial time in a foreign jail.
The fact that the Crown Prosecutors know all that and would still charge her shows that they are caving in to mob pressure and that this is a political decision. Under the circumstances, mrs. Sacoolas could not get a fair trial in the UK given all the negative publicity and ongoing media circus.
She is right not to go back and U.S. courts will never agree to her extradition.
Onkel Neal
12-24-19, 05:33 PM
Well that is easy to say when you're not the one facing a couple decades in a foreign prison.
If she's guilty of a crime. If not, what's the drama? Why would she not get a fair trial? Britain isn't a third-world country.
If it's ok for a diplomat to break the law and flee, then everyone should have the same right.
If she's guilty of a crime. If not, what's the drama? Why would she not get a fair trial? Britain isn't a third-world country.
If it's ok for a diplomat to break the law and flee, then everyone should have the same right.
I think if you look at Bilge Rats post above it answers your questions pretty well Neal.
Onkel Neal
12-24-19, 05:42 PM
That list makes her look innocent of anything other than an accident. So, again, why should she be exempt from following the law in the country where the accident took place? Are we implying that the locals will ignore the evidence and throw her in the slammer? Are the British known for that kind of thing? Why would she be denied bail if she had stayed on hand like people are supposed to do?
Innocent people don't run.
Rockstar
12-24-19, 06:10 PM
Innocent people dont run, unless they have a reason to fear. Maybe she and others know something we dont about the British legal system and current political climate. One only need look at this thread and see more than a few of the usual politically driven comments and very little said about the actual case.
When after the accident the lad is left ALIVE on the ground waiting over 40 minutes for an ambulance and then to die later in hospital administered by the government. Does anyone think the British DHS is going to step up and say they may have been a contributing factor? Hell no, I imagine DHS/government will circle the wagons proclaiming Causing Death by Dangerous Driving and presto attention diverted and Ms. Sacoolas is now the sacrificial lamb.
That list makes her look innocent of anything other than an accident. So, again, why should she be exempt from following the law in the country where the accident took place? Are we implying that the locals will ignore the evidence and throw her in the slammer? Are the British known for that kind of thing? Why would she be denied bail if she had stayed on hand like people are supposed to do?
Innocent people don't run.
Sure they do and "We" are not implying anything. It's easy for us to talk about appearances from the comfort of our easy chairs but she is the one facing prison for what was an accident until it suddenly became a crime.
Was she found to have been drinking or did she have a public hatred of the British? Has there been any revelation or change to the circumstances of the case to justify this charge? Because as far as I can tell Bilge Rat is right when he says this is politically motivated.
Bilge_Rat
12-26-19, 09:35 AM
Diplomatic immunity is not a "get out of jail free" card. It is often waived in cases of serious crimes, but there is the rub, the UK will have to present evidence that this was more than a simple accident which they have not done so far.
Last month, Mrs Sacoolas' lawyers were in talk for a "plea deal" with British prosecutors if she would avoid any jail time. The fact that the talks fell through strongly signals that the British want to send her to jail, no matter what the evidence shows.
Rockstar
12-26-19, 11:03 AM
The Experiences of an Old Man with the Criminal Justice System in the UK.
http://britishjustice.org/
When British Justice Died
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2019/07/when-british-justice-died-bruce-bawer/
British 'Justice': Poppycock
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12428/british-justice-poppycock
The list of people and organizations fed up with the British justice system is a long one. Maybe U.S. officials knew this and got Ms Sacoolas out and are now attempting to work something out from more friendly ground. I wonder what the Dunn family is doing about the NHS and ambulance service? Or did British justice system tell them to go urinate up a rope?
1. Harry Dunn family suing Trump administration.
2. Harry Dunn family suing U.S. Foreign Office
3. Harry Dunn family suing Sacoolas
Not one word about suing Brit government run NHS where Harry Dunn died or the ambulance service that took its sweet time.
Dont get me wrong Im not trying to say the U.S. justice system is any better or worse. But the idea that a visitor in a foreign has nothing to fear is horse crap. IMO they need fear for the reason they are a very easy target. Especially if what BilgeRat has brought to light has even ounce of truth to it. The idea that somehow their poop dont stink like everyone else's is a load of b.s.
Innocent people dont run, unless they have a reason to fear. Maybe she and others know something we dont about the British legal system and current political climate. One only need look at this thread and see more than a few of the usual politically driven comments and very little said about the actual case.
When after the accident the lad is left ALIVE on the ground waiting over 40 minutes for an ambulance and then to die later in hospital administered by the government. Does anyone think the British DHS is going to step up and say they may have been a contributing factor? Hell no, I imagine DHS/government will circle the wagons proclaiming Causing Death by Dangerous Driving and presto attention diverted and Ms. Sacoolas is now the sacrificial lamb.
Sure is nice to know that here in the States, there has been absolutely no problems ,EVER, with our 911 system or our first responders!! No ambulances have ever been late or gone to the wrong address!! Isn't it amazing how perfect we are here in the States!!
You make it sound like the UK is some third world country, and the lives of their people aren't worth worrying about. Just write it off as a "Too Bad!!" but that's life incident. Of course if this happened to someone in your family, you would want the death sentence for whoever did it. Funny how that works, part of your Conservative Christian views I suppose,lol Those views aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on !!:haha::haha:
Wonder what anyone from the UK, who has been through our justice system thinks of it,lol Seriously doubt they would call it Christian!! Just ask the Americans who have been locked up in it for decades, and come to find out they are innocent, and set free. Yup, our justice system is perfect, make no mistake about that!! What a bunch of BS you are spreading around, should get a job on a farm, could use you to spread manure everywhere!
Rockstar
12-26-19, 04:03 PM
jesus eddie you could have saved yourself from writing all that, had just taken the time to read my post just above yours.
Catfish
12-26-19, 04:05 PM
I take it the main problem starts when "justice" or let's say imprisonment is connected to making money. Much worse in the US I know. Let's just call it capitalism :03:
Seriously, when i was in the UK for the third time (just made an international (in the EU :03: yeah fk you brexiters) driving license I was alright in Coventry and Abingdon (lots of young guys wanting to see Europe (and free to travel and live there with no problem!)), i woke up the third day, said goodbye to our nice hosts in Coventry, entered the car and drove off on the right side of the road, in England -
I soon realized my error alright , but if not and if some cyclist woud have 'met' me... :o
Then the next roundabout - no traffic lights or crossroads, looked left, nothing there, and disengaged the clutch- next thing i realized my co-driver shouting and a wheel squeal at the right of me. A big tire and a giant chassis whipping of some red bus.. sheer luck.
I drove very concentrated then and it never happened again, but if :o
If something gruesome had happened due to a mistake i made, i would have staid and accepted the outcome.
i can't blame the woman, but it would not have been my take. I think :hmmm:
I read somewhere that driving is largely a subconscious activity. It is very difficult and tiring to drive with ones full attention for any distance.
Rockstar
12-26-19, 08:03 PM
catfish I think I understand what you're saying. we all have this reasonable expectation that lady justice is more than simply swift and final but also impartial and that all evidence would weighed. But unfortunetly that isnt always the case and as we have read it can quickly become political.
As much as admire your honestly and desire to do the right thing as well as expecting the same of the prosecutor. I would still strongly suggest contacting the German embassy or some other friendly counsel before you admit to do doing any wrong, especially in a foreign land.
If you just roll over you make it easy for the prosecution/government to close the case and just rubber stamp you all the way to you new cell. Everyone has a right to be represented and defended.
Rockstar
12-26-19, 08:10 PM
Just an FYI. In the U.S. slavery has been abolished. UNLESS you have been found guilty of a crime and sent to prison.
13th Amendment to our Constitution.
... neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
again, seek counsel admit nothing. because you are right, prison labor is big business here and elsewhere ;)
Jimbuna
01-11-20, 07:49 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621
The Home Office has requested the extradition of a US woman to be charged with causing the death by dangerous driving of motorcyclist Harry Dunn.
Mr Dunn, 19, died after a crash in Northamptonshire in August which led to the suspect, Anne Sacoolas, leaving for the US under diplomatic immunity.
Extradition proceedings were started in December.
The Home Office said the matter was "now a decision for the US authorities".
Jimbuna
01-11-20, 07:52 AM
And the response.
The United States has criticised the UK's request to extradite an American accused of killing motorcyclist Harry Dunn, calling it "highly inappropriate".
Mr Dunn, 19, died after being hit by a car allegedly driven by suspect Anne Sacoolas, who left the country for the US claiming diplomatic immunity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-51075235
Bilge_Rat
01-11-20, 11:56 AM
If you follow the saga, it is interesting to see that this is a UK story only. It is barely being reported on in the US.
As we all know, Democratic politicians and the liberal.US MSM are always looking for an anti-Trump angle. If there was mileage.to be made by criticizing the US position, you would.see it in the US coverage. The deafening silence is proof that everyone is on the same page that mrs.Sacoolas has diplomatic immunity and she should not be extradited.
Skybird
01-11-20, 12:29 PM
One can have arranged all formalities so that they back oneself, and still be wrong. If you only have paragraphs on your side, and moral against you, sooner or later this leaves a foul taste and the other's mouth.
And there may be a time when you cannord afford to spit on him, but need his help. What reaosn will he have then to grant it?
The whole story and circumstances have such a rotten scent around them, that it really needs no debate. What we have here is "justice" mistaken with "power".
Jimbuna
01-12-20, 07:30 AM
I can't see her being sent back if I'm being honest but this will have some form of repercussion in the future of that I am in little doubt.
Skybird
01-12-20, 09:57 AM
Justrice gets defined by the stronger. Its "law of the jungle" in disguise. Same like history being written by victors.
Jimbuna
01-18-20, 11:16 AM
Footage of a vehicle on the wrong side of the road near an RAF base has prompted urgent discussions in light of the death of Harry Dunn in a separate incident nearby.
The video of the near miss near RAF Croughton emerged as police revealed details of a separate incident in which a police vehicle was struck by a car being driven on the wrong side of the road in October.
In a statement published to Twitter, Northamptonshire Police’s chief constable Nick Adderley said the force had been made aware of the incident, and also said he had been made aware of another incident in Northampton in October, in which a police vehicle had been struck by a vehicle driving on the wrong side of the road.
He wrote: “I want to be absolutely clear on the fact that these incidents just cannot keep happening. We know all too well in the case of young Harry, just how devastating they can be.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-raf-croughton-northants-police_uk_5e231896c5b6321176147900?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACtfktm7mPbKMbzTw_VN8V0d5N-8YayskIzY23wtccs6nfejy20ZKslXfSo4FaJVotx3piKYUhtXi v8t9_3NY1AIdxd5GGbmw_ojvg2Yu6CRts4d0zrtkoMBqd-YYHKIJavBqkov7cI7OMwvsxrhDP2FgNU2f0d9QnZAkHzcZpIK
Two more incidents and both cars carrying diplomatic plates and registered as belonging to the intelligence base.
Buddahaid
01-18-20, 11:23 AM
If it's any consolation, people drive just as badly on the right side of the road here. Tailgating at high speed in any weather, no turn signals and no headlights when required due to rain and fog etc. It seems to be getting worse over the past several years as cars get smarter than the drivers.
Rockstar
01-19-20, 10:13 AM
Right, I went down to Florida for Christmas. Going through Georgia a driver in an old Ford f-150 entered Highway I-95 into a mass of oncoming traffic. Never gave it any thought if he worked for the CIA, had diplomatic immunity, if he was a foreigner getting away with something. Neither was I thinking of political ramifications or how it could affect Trump. Only thing that came to mind was as I hit the brakes hoping I didn't get rear ended was "holy sheet what the hell is this a dumbass doing?". Good thing he didn't kill anyone.
Catfish
05-12-20, 07:55 AM
The suspect in the crash which killed Harry Dunn is "wanted internationally" after an Interpol notice.
"An Interpol Red Notice - a request to law enforcement worldwide to locate and provisionally arrest a person pending extradition, surrender, or similar legal action - has now been issued.
On its website, Interpol states a red notice "is an international wanted persons notice, but it is not an arrest warrant"."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-52619998
Jimbuna
05-12-20, 07:58 AM
That was yesterday Kai, this is only two hours old.
The US has said its decision to refuse an extradition request for Harry Dunn's alleged killer was final.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-52630089
Rockstar
05-12-20, 07:58 AM
So what?
Jimbuna
05-12-20, 08:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvYoBhwvoZE
Rockstar
05-12-20, 08:15 AM
IMO one condition which must be met for extradition is a fair trial. Looking at the reactions here and in other media one can read how this ordeal almost immediately turned political. Comments how she must be returned to face British justice! To receive punishment for killing Harry Dunn. Not one assurance of a fair trial was mentioned, she was already convicted. Screw that, that sounds more like some back water third world justice system that doesn't understand the meaning of fair trial.
Catfish
05-12-20, 08:18 AM
That was yesterday Kai, this is only two hours old. [...]
First time anything about the case was even mentioned here on tv afaik.
The suspect in the crash which killed Harry Dunn is "wanted internationally" after an Interpol notice.
"An Interpol Red Notice - a request to law enforcement worldwide to locate and provisionally arrest a person pending extradition, surrender, or similar legal action - has now been issued.
On its website, Interpol states a red notice "is an international wanted persons notice, but it is not an arrest warrant"."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-52619998
Sounds like an arrest warrant to me...
Rockstar
05-12-20, 09:11 PM
This interpol warrant is simply a sad attempt by the British government and Queen Elizabeth to distract public opinion away from them, lackadaisical emergency medical response, police allowing what the public already sees as the 'killer' to go free, probably way over due on known problems at the intersection which could have made it safer. I'd bet you dollars to donuts they never wanted this to go to trial to begin with. A good American lawyer would cause them too much embarrassment.
“To lose our son was bad enough but to be abandoned and mistreated the way we have been by the British government, who were clearly trying to sweep us under the carpet, is inhumanehttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/harry-dunns-family-call-for-parliamentary-inquiry-into-death
seems too me the cat's out of the bag.
Jimbuna
05-13-20, 06:06 AM
There are no winners here both sides are losers imho.
Jimbuna
11-24-20, 08:01 AM
Harry Dunn's parents have lost their High Court battle against the Foreign Office over whether their son's alleged killer had diplomatic immunity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-55057671
Jimbuna
02-17-21, 07:35 AM
It's sad it has come to this but I still fail to see how this woman, a mother herself, can sleep at night.
A civil claim for damages against Harry Dunn's alleged killer will remain in the US due to her "refusal" to return to the UK, a judge has ruled.
Mr Dunn, 19, died in a crash near RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in 2019.
The suspect Anne Sacoolas returned to the US, claiming diplomatic immunity, and an extradition request was blocked.
Mrs Sacoolas, 43, had applied to dismiss the case on the grounds it should be heard in the UK.
The move came despite her legal team admitting she would not agree to face trial due to a "concern" she would not "receive fair treatment".
Mrs Sacoolas has been charged with causing the teenager's death by dangerous driving but an extradition request was rejected by the US government in January last year.
A court hearing in the eastern district of Virginia had previously been told her work in intelligence was "especially a factor" in her departure and that she "fled" the UK for "issues of security".
But at the conclusion of the hearing on Tuesday, Judge Thomas Ellis said: "While it is commendable that defendant Anne Sacoolas admits that she was negligent and that her negligence caused Harry Dunn's death, this does not equate acceptance of responsibility.
"Full acceptance of responsibility entails facing those harmed by her negligence and taking responsibility for her acts where they occurred, in the United Kingdom."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56091164
Rockstar
02-21-21, 11:12 AM
It's been recently determined the Dunn's can sue for damages in the U.S. Tha's something which might help them and give them closure. It will also protect Ms. Sacoolas against extradition and keep her away from British politics mob justice, pitch forks and torches.
But I suppose if you all insist, we could do an exchange. Sarcoolas for the child molester Prince Andrew. He seems to sleeping well at night knowing he doesn't have to present himself in a U.S. court. One, the product of a horrible accident the other a Royal pervert who preys on children. Seems fair.
Moonlight
02-21-21, 12:06 PM
^What a load of bollocks, if the American police force had any concrete evidence that Prince Andrew the pervert had molested any underage girls it would have been presented to the courts and the UK government by now.
As far as I know no one in the UK has ever been convicted by a jury on hearsay and innuendo alone, the UK courts need real hard evidence before they convict so when you have it, then you can have the horrible little currant with my blessing. :up:
Meanwhile that American currant did a runner knowing full well that it was her fault that that young man was killed, and your government are a willing participant in protecting her from the UK justice system. :doh:
Personally I would have given your government fair warning that their stance on this is unacceptable and with no regrets at all any and all American bases in the UK will be closed down until they reconsider their decision. :yep:
It seems as if your countries extradition system only works when its not an American citizen that's involved, perhaps the UK government need to grow a pair and remind that senile old bastard you've got for a President that you don't crap on the best ally you've ever had...... or ever will have. :doh:
Jeff-Groves
02-21-21, 12:17 PM
That I agree on!
Screw the Beech! Turn her sorry arse over!
Worried about her Intelligence information? Give her a Lobotomy complements of the Government she worked for.
They did warn her going in SCH!
Personally I would have given your government fair warning that their stance on this is unacceptable and with no regrets at all any and all American bases in the UK will be closed down until they reconsider their decision. :yep:
Sounds fine to me. I say bring all our military forces home, but that would mean your country would actually have to defend itself rather than rely on the protection and largess of the US. Are you really sure you'd want us gone?
Jeff-Groves
02-21-21, 01:24 PM
WWII is far from some minds.
Bilge_Rat
02-21-21, 01:44 PM
That was just a motion to dismiss the case, on the substance, she can still claim diplomatic immunity since that applies to civil liability as well. Even if that is rejected, her car insurance will pay since this was a car accident.
Sort of surprised her insurance company has not settled with the Dunns, but presumably it is relying on the diplomatic immunity defence as well and wants to see how that plays out.
Jeff-Groves
02-21-21, 01:48 PM
Insurance my not play into the whole thing as she was out of Country.
Some polices will not cover out of Country accidents.
It'd think she was covered by the USA insurance but if not?
Driving without insurance is an offence also.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/f5/b6/8cf5b6b642fbb69c14b55153f7f08aca.jpg
Rockstar
02-21-21, 02:02 PM
^What a load of bollocks, if the American police force had any concrete evidence that Prince Andrew the pervert had molested any underage girls it would have been presented to the courts and the UK government by now.
As far as I know no one in the UK has ever been convicted by a jury on hearsay and innuendo alone, the UK courts need real hard evidence before they convict so when you have it, then you can have the horrible little currant with my blessing. :up:
Meanwhile that American currant did a runner knowing full well that it was her fault that that young man was killed, and your government are a willing participant in protecting her from the UK justice system. :doh:
Personally I would have given your government fair warning that their stance on this is unacceptable and with no regrets at all any and all American bases in the UK will be closed down until they reconsider their decision. :yep:
It seems as if your countries extradition system only works when its not an American citizen that's involved, perhaps the UK government need to grow a pair and remind that senile old bastard you've got for a President that you don't crap on the best ally you've ever had...... or ever will have. :doh:
I haven't seen evidence of the charges in either case only accusations and political games. Neither is willing to travel to a foreign country and submit themselves to that country's judicial system. Can't say as I blame either one.
Harry was alive when he arrived at hospital. I charge the doctors failure to take action that could have saved his life.
Buddahaid
02-21-21, 02:50 PM
I haven't seen evidence of the charges in either case only accusations and political games. Neither is willing to travel to a foreign country and submit themselves to that country's judicial system. Can't say as I blame either one.
Harry was alive when he arrived at hospital. I charge the doctors failure to take action that could have saved his life.
And if he hadn't been hit by someone driving on the wrong side of the road he wouldn't have been in the hospital at all.
Jeff-Groves
02-21-21, 04:59 PM
best ally you've ever had...... or ever will have.
You know you really have to qualify that statement.
One could argue the French were the best.
:hmmm:
Moonlight
02-22-21, 05:03 AM
You know you really have to qualify that statement.
One could argue the French were the best.
:hmmm:
:hmmm: How about asking your president to qualify it instead, and when he's come up with "France", he can go knocking on their door the next time your interfering government has got themselves embroiled in another war. :up:
I'll let my MP know the US citizens would prefer France as an ally in the next conflict they're involved in, just a reminder though, don't use the "Weapons of Mass Destructions" lies again, and last thing, buy the French some back to front uniforms. :O:
I've done with this thread as the world will never get any Justice from your government concerning American citizens. :O:
les green01
02-23-21, 12:18 AM
:hmmm: How about asking your president to qualify it instead, and when he's come up with "France", he can go knocking on their door the next time your interfering government has got themselves embroiled in another war. :up:
I'll let my MP know the US citizens would prefer France as an ally in the next conflict they're involved in, just a reminder though, don't use the "Weapons of Mass Destructions" lies again, and last thing, buy the French some back to front uniforms. :O:
I've done with this thread as the world will never get any Justice from your government concerning American citizens. :O:
seem like i remember the US bailing the british or britian got us in a war or two out a few times fine let your mp know also far as i'm concern we can stop paying the un and who and all that crap money can be use for better stuff over here I'm sure some of mine ancestors wish some of the folks from europe would have stay away,has far as justice what i have read from many here i doubt she would even get a fair trial most here hadnt even answer or mention that it took them 40 minutes to get to the screen what i have read would he have surivive if they got there sooner really feels like to me another ugly american story that the people over europe loves so much
:hmmm: How about asking your president to qualify it instead, and when he's come up with "France", he can go knocking on their door the next time your interfering government has got themselves embroiled in another war. :up:
I'll let my MP know the US citizens would prefer France as an ally in the next conflict they're involved in, just a reminder though, don't use the "Weapons of Mass Destructions" lies again, and last thing, buy the French some back to front uniforms. :O:
I've done with this thread as the world will never get any Justice from your government concerning American citizens. :O:
From our nations point of view France is the better ally. They supported our revolution, they didn't burn our capitol and they didn't put war munitions on civilian passenger ships so that the Germans would attack and sink them thereby killing American civilians and drawing us into a foreign war.
Bilge_Rat
02-23-21, 12:50 PM
Insurance my not play into the whole thing as she was out of Country.
Some polices will not cover out of Country accidents.
It'd think she was covered by the USA insurance but if not?
Driving without insurance is an offence also.
She is covered by USAA which has already appeared in the case. USAA is taking the position that the only damages the family is entitled to is Harry Dunn's funeral expenses, so they are playing hardball. The Family's position is that this is not enough so it looks like this will end with the insurance company and the Dunn family agreeing to a "suitable" amount.
Mr McGavin wrote that compensation must be ‘limited to funeral expenses’, adding there was ‘no plausible claim for dependency damages’. Such damages are paid when family members were dependent on the deceased.
The lawyer said the family should not be reimbursed for money Harry would have earned because he did not ‘contribute to household expenses’. Mr McGavin went on: ‘There must be factual allegations to plausibly demonstrate [Mrs Sacoolas’s] conduct was taken with the intent to cause physical harm or psychiatric injury. There are no such allegations in the complaint.
‘Further, there are no factual allegations to demonstrate (Harry’s mother) Charlotte Charles, (father) Tim Dunn or Niall Dunn suffered physical harm or recognisable psychiatric distress.’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9280351/Harry-Dunns-family-lawyer-hits-diplomat-Anne-Sacoolas-offers-pay-funeral.html
btw the Biden admin has confirmed again that mrs. Sacoolas will not be extradited.
Rockstar
02-23-21, 01:02 PM
Its unfortunate this has turned into a political circus. But such is diplomacy and the agreements between sovereign nations. Its also sad the insurance company is playing hardball. But they may simply be following the lead of the British government and Foreign and Commonwealth Office. When they too told 'mum' to pack sand after she tried to sue the F&CO for giving the 'killer' the green light to leave the country. IMO when there's politics involved there's no real justice to be found. I'm glad she's off that island because of politics she would have never received a fair trial.
If the Dunn family can bring her to court here in the U.S. or settle out all the more power to them.
Hey, Don't let foreign women drive in your country. And as far as American Women go, You loved them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqfpkTTy2w Canada just an extension of the Empire and this was a damn good band.
By the way what the Hell happened to the Prince who married an American women who was a nobody and became a Princess. ?
Moonlight
03-05-21, 03:33 PM
If you mean that woke Ginger headed currant and his wench Me-again Markle, I believe they're living a private life away from the limelight while slumming it with all the American celebrities who can get them in the newspapers or on the television. :haha:
Apart from that info I divulged I don't know anything else, it seems a strange way to live a life of privacy though, prostituting themselves for a few dollars more, :doh: I've got two things to say to America, you're welcome to her and don't send the woke currant back here or she'll be public enemy number 1. :O:
Jimbuna
03-09-21, 05:31 AM
The latest chapter.
US national Anne Sacoolas, the main suspect in the fatal motorbike accident of 19-year-old Briton Harry Dunn, has said she is willing to do community service and make a “contribution” to his memory.
Ms Sacoolas has “never denied” responsibility for the 2019 crash in Northamptonshire that killed the motorcyclist, said her lawyer Amy Jeffress – but added that her client is not inclined to return to the UK to face trial.
The Dunn family has rejected the idea of community service, insisting Ms Sacoolas faces “justice” in the UK over the charge of causing death by dangerous driving.
“I made that promise to my son on the night he died that I would get him justice. My promise to him still remains. There are no circumstances at all under which I will break that promise,” his mother Charlotte Charles told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/anne-sacoolas-harry-dunn-family-rejects-suspects-offer-to-do-community-service/ar-BB1eoCIY?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBoPWjQ
Bilge_Rat
03-09-21, 02:06 PM
point of view of mrs. Sacoolas's lawyer.
Speaking to Joshua Rozenberg, for BBC Radio 4's Law in Action, Ms Jeffress said they had been trying to resolve the case in a way that would not involve Mrs Sacoolas's return to the UK.
Ms Jeffress said: "We understand that community service is a typical sentence for offences like this.
"We have offered ever since over a year ago that she would be willing to serve that kind of a sentence and to make a contribution in Harry's memory, to take other steps to try to bring some peace to the family."
Ms Jeffress said Mrs Sacoolas had driven "instinctively" on the right-hand side of the road after leaving the US military base where her husband had a job covered by diplomatic immunity.
At the time of the crash on 27 August 2019, Mrs Sacoolas had only been in the UK "for a few weeks" and had made "a tragic mistake", said Ms Jeffress.
"She's never denied that this was her fault - that she caused this collision by driving on the wrong side of the road," she said.
She claimed reports Mrs Sacoolas had not called for help were untrue, stating she flagged down a motorist who called the ambulance service while she notified police at the military base.
The lawyer said her client had co-operated fully with police, took a breathalyser test, which produced a zero reading, and surrendered her phone to show she had not been using it.
She remained at the scene until told by the police to leave and was subsequently interviewed by them for several hours, Ms Jeffress said.
The lawyer added: "One aspect of this that has not been reported is that this kind of an accident, had it occurred in the United States, would not be prosecuted criminally.
"In the United States, these cases are only prosecuted where there is evidence of recklessness that rises to the level of close to intent - drunk driving, distracted driving, a hit-and-run situation or excessive speeding.
"But there was none of that here."
She said she understood this was one of the reasons the US was not prepared to waive her client's immunity.
(...)
Ms Jeffress also denied suggestions that Interpol was seeking her client's arrest in the US under a so-called Red Notice.
"There is no Red Notice, and there never was a Red Notice and so Interpol will not be assisting in this matter."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56326406
In think The Sacoolas should be at the very least held financially responsible, they should compensate the Dunn family. She was at fault there is no if and butts about that.But in the real world of spy vs spy and Diplomats and Politicians. Collateral damage by all countries is acceptable.
But she will have to live with those last moments of her decisions in her mind and the outcome for the rest of her life. One day i was out hunting birds called quail here in an open field and as we moved closer to the forest tree line.Guess what the birds flew up out of the grass and i took a shot. I didn't hit a quail but i did hit an Owl setting in a tree just watching us. I was 14 yrs old and that memory will be forever in my mind, Harry Dunn will be forever in Mrs.Sacoolas mind and the older she gets the more present it will be. My Condolences to Harry Dunn's Family. Righteousness sometimes takes years in a mortals life.
Jimbuna
12-15-21, 06:37 AM
Hopefully this is the beginning of the process that will help Harry's parents come to some form of closure.
The case of Anne Sacoolas, the US national charged over the death of motorcyclist Harry Dunn, is to be heard by a UK court, prosecutors have said.
Mr Dunn, 19, died in a crash with a car near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, on 27 August, 2019.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said Mrs Sacoolas' case would go before magistrates next month.
Her lawyers denied reports the 44-year-old would attend via video link and said no such agreement had been made.
The CPS previously authorised a charge of causing death by dangerous driving against Mrs Sacoolas, who left the UK citing diplomatic immunity, in 2019.
It did not confirm whether the same charge would be the subject of a Westminster Magistrates' Court hearing scheduled for 18 January.
Mr Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, said: "My family and I are feeling very emotional and overwhelmed, having just learned the news that Mrs Sacoolas is now to face our justice system.
"It is all that we asked for following Harry's death."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-59643750
The parents of Harry Dunn have reached a "resolution" in a civil claim for damages with the woman alleged to have killed him, the family's spokesman has said.
Mr Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike was hit by a car driven by US citizen Anne Sacoolas near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, in 2019.
She later left the country, claiming diplomatic immunity.
Dunn family spokesman Radd Seiger said the outcome was "a real milestone".
Details of the agreement reached between the parties involved in the civil case have not been disclosed.
The teenager's parents, Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn, brought the civil claim against Mrs Sacoolas in the US state of Virginia.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-58642224
Rockstar
12-15-21, 10:51 AM
Hopefully this is the beginning of the process that will help Harry's parents come to some form of closure.
And we get Julian Assange, see how that works, it’s politics, all politics.
Bilge_Rat
12-15-21, 11:33 AM
Actually her lawyers are denying there is any agreement and they would be stupid to agree to one. One thing that is clear is that she will not be appearing in person, only by video link, but even then why take the risk? If she is found guilty and given a jail sentence, it will be used to restart the extradition proceeedings.
Jeff-Groves
12-15-21, 11:37 AM
She ran over a Biker and then got the hell out of the Country.
If she had hit My Wife? Fleeing the Country would NOT have saved her.
I'd have hunted her down and taken My revenge. For My Government to protect her is a betrayal.
Bilge_Rat
12-15-21, 11:51 AM
it was an accident, tragic but still an accident. Nothing has been put forward by anyone that it was anything else but an accident.
It is unfortunate that the family is so blinded by revenge, but honestly that is their problem.
Jimbuna
12-15-21, 11:54 AM
Small steps but steps in the right direction.
Hopefully this is the beginning of the process that will help Harry's parents come to some form of closure.
Doesn't sound like it to me. I'm starting to think these two people are going to keep after her until they see her either in an English prison cell or dead.
Jimbuna
12-15-21, 01:48 PM
Doesn't sound like it to me. I'm starting to think these two people are going to keep after her until they see her either in an English prison cell or dead.
So far, I believe them when they say they simply want justice for their son. What form that justice will take is down to the courts to decide.
Jeff-Groves
12-15-21, 02:22 PM
either in an English prison cell or dead.
Either one sounds good to me. The Bitch bolted! With help from our Elected Officials.
That's Complicity.
Either one sounds good to me. The Bitch bolted! With help from our Elected Officials.
That's Complicity.
You would have bolted too. Especially if you thought they would take the same kind of revenge on you that you are always threatening to do to others.
Jeff-Groves
12-15-21, 06:00 PM
I'm not an innocent in many ways. I have always stood up and took my punishment for crimes committed. So your comment is just wind.
Never claimed Diplomatic immunity to bolt from a Country and never run over someone.
And I can't recall the US Government stepping in to hide me from prosecution.
If She has secrets? Whack the Bitch and send the Body if it's that important.
I'm not an innocent in many ways. I have always stood up and took my punishment for crimes committed. So your comment is just wind.
Never claimed Diplomatic immunity to bolt from a Country and never run over someone.
And I can't recall the US Government stepping in to hide me from prosecution.
If She has secrets? Whack the Bitch and send the Body if it's that important.
Quite bloodthirsty aren't you killer?
Jimbuna
12-08-22, 02:58 PM
Harry Dunn: Anne Sacoolas gets suspended jail term for fatal crash
A US citizen responsible for the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for a year.
Anne Sacoolas was driving on the wrong side of the road when she hit the 19-year-old outside a US military base in Northamptonshire in 2019.
The case led to a transatlantic row between the US and UK governments.
Charlotte Charles said of the family's three-year wait for justice "we didn't back down because we have values".
Mrs Charles, Harry's mother, added that her "promise" to get justice for her son through the UK courts was "well and truly complete".
Following the crash, Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US administration and left the country 19 days later. She never returned to the UK.
Sacoolas, who admitted earlier this year to causing death by careless driving, appeared at London's Old Bailey via video-link after her employer, the US government, advised her not to travel to the UK to attend in person.
Mrs Charles said the 45-year-old's failure to attend was "despicable", adding she was "absolutely disgusted" at the actions of the US.
Mrs Charles added: "Anne Sacoolas has a criminal record for the rest of her life.
"That was something she never thought she'd see, something the US government never thought they'd see.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-63891657
Jimbuna
12-08-22, 03:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maCYO0s32ys
Moonlight
12-08-22, 05:06 PM
[B][SIZE="4"]
Mrs Charles said the 45-year-old's failure to attend was "despicable", adding she was "absolutely disgusted" at the actions of the US.
Mrs Charles added: "Anne Sacoolas has a criminal record for the rest of her life.
I'm disgusted at the US Government as well, as for having a criminal record for the rest of her life, it won't count against her in the good ol US of A will it, nah, those bent pillocks over there will pin a bleeding medal on the currant or something similar.
As for you on this forum who are favouring this Sacoolas bitch, let's hope that one of your family isn't killed in an accident like this, because if they were you'd soon change your bleeding tune. :o
Rockstar
12-08-22, 05:35 PM
I'm disgusted at the US Government as well, as for having a criminal record for the rest of her life, it won't count against her in the good ol US of A will it, nah, those bent pillocks over there will pin a bleeding medal on the currant or something similar.
As for you on this forum who are favouring this Sacoolas bitch, let's hope that one of your family isn't killed in an accident like this, because if they were you'd soon change your bleeding tune. :o
Hey everything the U.S. government did was with the blessing of the British Home Office. It’s been drilled in my brain if you get trouble in a foreign country you contact your embassy at first opportunity and she did her job and the embassy officials did theirs
The initial reports about this case was pretty obvious that it was an accident, she notified local authorities, reported the accident, ambulance response wasn’t much better than that of a Chinese fire-drill. She never denied events, she was detained and released by local authorities at the scene. It went from an accident investigation to international political lynching in the blink of an eye. After calls for her to face, not justice, but for her to face punishment in jail cell before a trail even began. IMO my government did everything allowable under previous diplomatic agreements and got her out before the mobs with torches and pitchforks showed up.
Buddahaid
12-08-22, 05:40 PM
I'm too lazy to research this but does the ruling mean she is now a fugitive in the eyes of Interpol?
Rockstar
12-08-22, 05:57 PM
I'm too lazy to research this but does the ruling mean she is now a fugitive in the eyes of Interpol?
Just because you admit to being too lazy to research doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion! Always remember, it is in keeping with the finest traditions of the General Forum when in doubt just go ahead and make something up. :O: :subsim: :yeah:
Buddahaid
12-08-22, 06:05 PM
Just because you admit to being too lazy to research doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion! Always remember, it is in keeping with the finest traditions of the General Forum when in doubt just go ahead and make something up. :O: :subsim: :yeah:
Umm, OK.
https://i.imgflip.com/199edm.jpg
les green01
12-08-22, 06:37 PM
I'm disgusted at the US Government as well, as for having a criminal record for the rest of her life, it won't count against her in the good ol US of A will it, nah, those bent pillocks over there will pin a bleeding medal on the currant or something similar.
As for you on this forum who are favouring this Sacoolas bitch, let's hope that one of your family isn't killed in an accident like this, because if they were you'd soon change your bleeding tune. :o
you don't think so if you have a criminal record in this country if it not a misdemeanor which takes 7 years for misdemanor to fall off the record your screw on about everything
em2nought
12-09-22, 12:25 AM
Umm, OK.
https://i.imgflip.com/199edm.jpg
This is how Kari Lake lost right? :D
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