GWX night vision question for experienced GWX players

[John Pancoast]

In the SC7 single mission and in the campaign, the watch crew can spot ships 14-16k meters away. No clouds, starry night, calm weather. Moon in the SC7 mission, none in the campaign but I believe moonlight isn't modeled in SH3 anyway.


I have the night vision option checked in Hsie's/Stiebler's applied patches. Stock GWX env. files.


Is this normal in GWX ?

[ivanov.ruslan]

Hi,try with this,these are readme files from MEPv6


https://i.postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h)


https://i.postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8/2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8)

[John Pancoast]

Hi,try with this,these are readme files from MEPv6


https://i.postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h)


https://i.postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8/2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8)

Thanks, I have that on my NYGM install, but kind of like the stock GWX environment so don't have it installed on it.

Just seem strange getting those vision distances.

[John Pancoast]

Hi,try with this,these are readme files from MEPv6


https://i.postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QVvRHV2h)


https://i.postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8/2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kB8L8qC8)




Tried this with the same mission, and crew still sees ships 14-16k away. Doesn't seem right for any sort of night vision.

[ivanov.ruslan]

Then,here

https://i.postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s)

[John Pancoast]

Then,here

https://i.postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s)

Yeah, I saw that mentioned in the readme, thanks !

[John Pancoast]

Then,here

https://i.postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s/1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Bj2SmQ7s)




According to the readme, this sensors.dat change is for your crew's visuals.
Also according to the readme, to change what I'm talking about, the ai visuals, the ai_sensors.dat would be changed.


But I think I'll just leave both alone; probably create more problems than solve.


Gotten to the point where I charge at flank speed at an escort in a surface night attack to see if they even react.
What prompted this thread was I was able to ram an escort without it reacting to me in any way.....

[ivanov.ruslan]

John, I assure you I have not had such a problem!
However, there may be some problem with some of the files, i suggest re-installing the game

[John Pancoast]

John, I assure you I have not had such a problem!
However, there may be some problem with some of the files, i suggest re-installing the game

Yeah, I've done that several times already. Keeps happening. It's always after a save reload though, so maybe that has something to do with that.
Game runs fine, but who knows.
Thanks for your help anyway.

[ivanov.ruslan]

:Kaleun_Salute:

[John Pancoast]

John, I assure you I have not had such a problem!
However, there may be some problem with some of the files, i suggest re-installing the game


Meant to ask; by your stating you have not had such a problem, are you referring to the crew being able to see 14 -16k meters as I described, or the escorts not reacting to you?

[ivanov.ruslan]

The escort starts firing at me before the watch crew reacts
Overnight,in 1942

[John Pancoast]

The escort starts firing at me before the watch crew reacts
Overnight,in 1942




Ok, thanks again !

[ivanov.ruslan]

P.p I talking about historical mision,Airship encounter,i think,not to careers!:yep:

[John Pancoast]

P.p I talking about historical mision,Airship encounter,i think,not to careers!:yep:

Thanks. If you can, load up the SC7 mission and let me know the distance your crew first spots the convoy ships at.

With me, it's right away and at 14-16k distance after a short while. Even if I turn 180 degrees from the convoy and take off at flank speed to create distance, the same happens.

Just seems strange being able to see those distances at night.

[ivanov.ruslan]

Excuse me, John, but I'm halfway through installation WAC 5.01 now,
I dont have a GWX installed, but everything we commented on is true
I also do not have a multi installation
Possibly over the weekend, but it's a long time

[John Pancoast]

Excuse me, John, but I'm halfway through installation WAC 5.01 now,
I dont have a GWX installed, but everything we commented on is true
I also do not have a multi installation
Possibly over the weekend, but it's a long time

Not a problem, you've been a big help !

[ivanov.ruslan]

:Kaleun_Salute:Ok,deal!

[John Pancoast]

:Kaleun_Salute:Ok,deal!

Yeah, if you don't want to hassle installing GWX, that's understandable, don't worry about it !

[ivanov.ruslan]

During the weekend ,
if a cat doesnt pass through the road ;)

[ivanov.ruslan]

Oh my God, I'm just starting to forget!
If memory didn't lie to me, i also installed the German uboat compilation!
The Sensors.dat,visual in this mod is almost like vanilla Sh3,9000 and 7000 m
Check whenever possible

[John Pancoast]

Oh my God, I'm just starting to forget!
If memory didn't lie to me, i also installed the German uboat compilation!
The Sensors.dat,visual in this mod is almost like vanilla Sh3,9000 and 7000 m
Check whenever possible




No, I don't have that mod installed. I also double checked to make sure the AI_Sensors.dat/Sensors.dat and the Sensors.cfg/Sim.cfg files in my GWX 3 install are the "stock" GWX 3 files. So none of them have been replaced by any other mod.


Here's some interesting info. though I discovered last night.


I ran the SC7 mission in GWX 2.1 and the crew doesn't see any ships until a reasonable range on a clear moonlit night;7 -8k.


But in GWX 3.0 for some reason, they see at 14-16k range. Both installs are using the GWX 16k mod.


Maybe different light levels or something, don't know. But that GWX 3 range doesn't seem right to me.

[ivanov.ruslan]

:hmmm: We wil seen that

[ivanov.ruslan]

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1637p1s855ukz/Silent_Hunter_Mod_Collection#2h49jnyva7ncx
download from this archive,folder Rik007,Rik007 SH-5 Water for GWX 3.0 V0.9 08 Km,Atlantic version,loading the mod,start the game,if the problem is solved, then the reason is in scene.dat!:yep:


And changed in sensors.dat,visual parameters,like a stock Sh3!

[John Pancoast]

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1637p1s855ukz/Silent_Hunter_Mod_Collection#2h49jnyva7ncx
download from this archive,folder Rik007,Rik007 SH-5 Water for GWX 3.0 V0.9 08 Km,Atlantic version,loading the mod,start the game,if the problem is solved, then the reason is in scene.dat!:yep:


And changed in sensors.dat,visual parameters,like a stock Sh3!

Yes, that did it, but isn't it for an 8k environment ? I've been using the GWX 16k one.

[ivanov.ruslan]

Ок!

[ivanov.ruslan]

Golf von Aden,1944
https://i.postimg.cc/r0sFLh91/sh3-2019-08-23-07-01-04-46.jpg (https://postimg.cc/r0sFLh91)


https://i.postimg.cc/d74tpMGQ/sh3-2019-08-23-07-01-22-07.jpg (https://postimg.cc/d74tpMGQ)


distance 6, when watch crew spotted target

[John Pancoast]

Golf von Aden,1944
https://i.postimg.cc/r0sFLh91/sh3-2019-08-23-07-01-04-46.jpg (https://postimg.cc/r0sFLh91)


https://i.postimg.cc/d74tpMGQ/sh3-2019-08-23-07-01-22-07.jpg (https://postimg.cc/d74tpMGQ)


distance 6, when watch crew spotted target

Thanks !

[ivanov.ruslan]

For nothing!
probably couldn't help
but at least we exchanged some experience

[John Pancoast]

For nothing!
probably couldn't help
but at least we exchanged some experience


Exactly ! Thanks for the efforts !

[ivanov.ruslan]

:salute:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hi guys, I've been procrastinating to write about how the visual sensors are broken by Makman's included modification of the same in M.E.P v6.

Makman set the visual sensor minimum height value at "0.0" (zero) +/-.

Zero is the height of the water plane if it were compared to a plate of glass. The above value does not account for things such as visual fog-factor and visual light value modifiers.

However, it does result in virtually automatic detection of objects as small as periscopes, at incredible ranges in SH3, by visual sensors in clear weather states, including night in SH3.

It appears that Makman's MinHeight visual sensor setting has been incorporated into the Hsie "Night Vision Fix" adjuster. Although I think I might know, it is not clear to me which value that adjuster alters.

However, I can tell you that in GWX 3.0 as delivered, the visual sensor minimum height is set at 0.4 meters. In my experience, the best modifiers to that value, appear to relate to wave height and fog factor. For clarity, the minimum height value is not an angle.

My advice, without any intention to be a jerk, is to either not use Makman's 'Visual Sensor fix" for GWX, and/or delete the AI_Sensors.dat as included with his environment mod / M.E.P v6. His visual sensor modification truly breaks and completely ubers the enemy AI visual sensors in SH3 and/or GWX, and accounts for a number of threads I've seen here.... with the commonality being M.E.P v6 with Makman's 'Visual Sensor fix" for GWX being in place.


I am truly not trying to be problematic here, but for clarity, the visual sensor minimum height factor set to zero in the Sensors_AI.dat file, completely BORKS the sensor.


I really like the 20k horizon mod, although I think the moon reflection in M.E.P v6 might be broken.... am still chasing confirmation of the broken reflection in my testing.... If it is broken, I'll try to fix it. Makman94 did some really neat things in modding directions other than sensors modification. Again, not trying to be a jerk, but after experiencing and reading about the problem described in this thread and several others, I am really concerned about his testing methodology and what other alterations to sensors he might have made. Describing his visual sensor modification as a "fix" does not seem appropriate to me. "Option".... sure! "Fix".... certainly not so.

Collectively we've been fighting vampire night vision in SH3 for 15 years now. So tiresome.:/\\!!

[Fifi]

Thanks for those clarifications Kpt Lehmann :up: Very useful.

Running currently few SH3 mega mods all together (thanks multiSH3!) I’m not fan anymore of MEP env (even though i was before...) as i don’t like some of its rendering (mainly waves shapes)

As to GWX concern, I’m running LSH3 ATM blue water mod (found in the LSH3 download) but with stock LSH3 scene.dat who deliver my favorite env rendering in GWX... hence running stock GWX sensors :yep:

So if i understood well, we would have to deactivate also the Night vision fix in Hsie Patch?

[John Pancoast]

Thanks Kpt ! Fwiw, on occasion I still get clear night vision of 16k even with "stock" GWX and NYGM with H.sie's night vision option in his patch applied. His recommended change to the sensors.cfg file was done.
Just had it in two different convoy attacks in NYGM. If it helps, I can see the same as the AI in these scenarios.

Very strange.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thanks for those clarifications Kpt Lehmann :up: Very useful.

Running currently few SH3 mega mods all together (thanks multiSH3!) I’m not fan anymore of MEP env (even though i was before...) as i don’t like some of its rendering (mainly waves shapes)

As to GWX concern, I’m running LSH3 ATM blue water mod (found in the LSH3 download) but with stock LSH3 scene.dat who deliver my favorite env rendering in GWX... hence running stock GWX sensors :yep:

So if i understood well, we would have to deactivate also the Night vision fix in Hsie Patch?

Well, to answer your question there is two parts.
One: If you are using Makman94's visual sensor fix for GWX, and Hsie's hardcode fixes, first reset the night vision controller / adjuster in Hsie's program. Then disable the Makman94's visual sensor fix for GWX, or whatever mod contains it. Then either delete the AI_Sensors.dat file in Makman's mod, or delete Makman's MEP v6 altogether.

Two, placing the adjuster in Hsie's hardcode fix files back to stock, and then removing Makman's 'fix' should return your installation back to whatever it was before applying the Makman's fix. The main idea, is to reset the game installation back to normal setting without harming that installation.

The million dollar question that I really need to have an authoritative answer for is, "Exactly which value or values in the sensors files, does the Hsie night vision adjuster slide alter?"

It is hard to say more, until I know exactly what the Hsie night vision adjuster is doing. We cannot work accurately with assumptions.:) If you know for sure, could you please post a link? I would like to see what Hsie, or whoever wrote the adjuster program, has to say.

It may be on an Hsie post or thread here. I just haven't found it yet if it does exist.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thanks Kpt ! Fwiw, on occasion I still get clear night vision of 16k even with "stock" GWX and NYGM with H.sie's night vision option in his patch applied. His recommended change to the sensors.cfg file was done.
Just had it in two different convoy attacks in NYGM. If it helps, I can see the same as the AI in these scenarios.

Very strange.


Sorry if this seems remedial, but are you referring to how far you can see graphically speaking, or are you referring to your crew's visual sensor range. I assume it is the latter, but want to make sure.

One thing is for certain, the visual sensors, particularly as used by the AI, don't leave you with enough string to tie your boots.

[John Pancoast]

Sorry if this seems remedial, but are you referring to how far you can see graphically speaking, or are you referring to your crew's visual sensor range. I assume it is the latter, but want to make sure.

One thing is for certain, the visual sensors, particularly as used by the AI, don't leave you with enough string to tie your boots.

Graphically; when the crew cries out ship sighted and it's at 16k on a clear night, I can see the same ship(s) as they through my binos.

The GWX ship markers also appear on the map at the same time. Had it happen again today in an NYGM patrol. Takes the wind outta one's sails.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Graphically; when the crew cries out ship sighted and it's at 16k on a clear night, I can see the same ship(s) as they through my binos.

The GWX ship markers also appear on the map at the same time. Had it happen again today in an NYGM patrol. Takes the wind outta one's sails.


Clear night with little wind? How about fog?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Clear night with little wind? How about fog?


Also, can you tell me if you are using the Hsie night vision adjuster thingy? (What is it's proper name LOL?)


Can you open your Sim.cfg and copy the text of same here for me?

[John Pancoast]

Clear night with little wind? How about fog?

All stages of wind; light, some, lots. No fog, stars showing.

[John Pancoast]

Also, can you tell me if you are using the Hsie night vision adjuster thingy? (What is it's proper name LOL?)


Can you open your Sim.cfg and copy the text of same here for me?


Yes, using H.sie's night vision fix via his patch. Not a slider though; just a selection box one chooses to enable it.

It's either fully on or fully off via the selection; no in between.


Here's my GWX sim.cfg. Stock GWX I believe.



[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.70 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.06 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=31000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=30 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=1.25 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=350 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.04 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.75 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.6 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=100 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]

[John Pancoast]

Oh, and H.sie's instructions say to have the following done to one's sensor.cfg file which I have done. I have not tried adjusting the setting in the Hsie.ini file.
Maybe that's the slider you're thinking of.



19. Night Vision Fix (by Makman94, Rubini, h.sie)
This fix addresses the so-called „Vampire Night Vision Bug“: In a clear but dark night, your Uboat watchcrew can see a ship in 15km distance, while an enemy warship watchcrew cannot see your Uboat in 300m distance (at least in GWX). This hardcode fix eliminates this problem. Not only the watchcrew has lowered visible range, also the player on his monitor,
since the mod changes the rendering of the objects at night using a simple environmental hack: A fog-curtain is moved, depending on the sun position. At daylight, the fog curtain is not changed, but as soon as the sun hides behind the horizon, the fog-curtain is continuously moved closer to the Uboat. So the balance between the players eyes and the watchcrews eyes is widely kept.
Per default, the fix reduces visibility at dark night about 50% (factor 0.5), but this factor can be adjusted in the hsie.ini file. Set the value e.g. to 0.75 in order to have a 25% reduction of visibility at night.
Recommended Crew Sensor Settings in data/cfg/Sensors.cfg (tentative values):
· Visual range factor = 0.5
· Visual fog factor = 1.02 (see below!)
· Visual light factor = 0.8
The „best“ Visual fog factor depends on the chosen environment and your monitor settings and must be individually fine-adjusted between approx. 1.00 and 1.05. If your crew detects a ship at night, before you can see it through the binocular on your monitor, the Visual fog factor must be slightly enlarged and vice versa.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Oh, and H.sie's instructions say to have the following done to one's sensor.cfg file which I have done. I have not tried adjusting the setting in the Hsie.ini file.
Maybe that's the slider you're thinking of.

19. Night Vision Fix (by Makman94, Rubini, h.sie)
This fix addresses the so-called „Vampire Night Vision Bug“: In a clear but dark night, your Uboat watchcrew can see a ship in 15km distance, while an enemy warship watchcrew cannot see your Uboat in 300m distance (at least in GWX). This hardcode fix eliminates this problem. Not only the watchcrew has lowered visible range, also the player on his monitor,
since the mod changes the rendering of the objects at night using a simple environmental hack: A fog-curtain is moved, depending on the sun position. At daylight, the fog curtain is not changed, but as soon as the sun hides behind the horizon, the fog-curtain is continuously moved closer to the Uboat. So the balance between the players eyes and the watchcrews eyes is widely kept.
Per default, the fix reduces visibility at dark night about 50% (factor 0.5), but this factor can be adjusted in the hsie.ini file. Set the value e.g. to 0.75 in order to have a 25% reduction of visibility at night.
Recommended Crew Sensor Settings in data/cfg/Sensors.cfg (tentative values):
· Visual range factor = 0.5
· Visual fog factor = 1.02 (see below!)
· Visual light factor = 0.8
The „best“ Visual fog factor depends on the chosen environment and your monitor settings and must be individually fine-adjusted between approx. 1.00 and 1.05. If your crew detects a ship at night, before you can see it through the binocular on your monitor, the Visual fog factor must be slightly enlarged and vice versa.

Thank you. As an aside, in the GWX Sim.cfg, you can change the following if you like, from:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

to the following

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=2500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

(aircraft fire machineguns/20mm wayyy too early in GWX.... the above corrects same)

************************************************** ****

Below is the GWX default visual sensor section of the Sensors.cfg.

;Visual.
Visual range factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Visual fog factor=1.1 ;[>=0]
Visual light factor=5.0 ;[>=0]
Visual waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual aspect=0.9 ;[>=0]
Visual enemy speed=0.2 ;[>=0]
Visual noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual sensor height factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Visual already tracking modifier=600 ;[detection probability modifier], most accurate, once a contact is detected it will lose it very hard
Visual decay time=200 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Visual uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

I need to obtain more information before I can reply effectively. AS long as you are not using any AI_Sensors.dat produced by Makman94, within M.E.P or not, that claims to 'fix GWX visual sensors,' that much is good.

I'm sorry John, my eyes are starting to cross and I'm afraid of losing track of enemy AI visual matters versus U-boat crew settings. I'm losing my place here. I will try to come at it again tomorrow. I swear that I'm really not trying to beat up on Makman. He isn't here to defend himself, but with all I've seen, I really cannot trust his sensor settings on any sort of clinical basis. Rubini was really good at finding neat stuff, but was often happy removing the shells from boiled eggs with a sledgehammer. Therefore, looking more closely at his works is indeed a worthwhile endeavor.

Other findings earlier today. Towards the beginning of this thread, (I think, will double check and edit if necessary.) Someone is using the SC-7 single mission as a measure for night vision and I wanted to see things for myself. (Pun intended.)

I ran just one test due to time constraints. Fully surfaced. 4kt approach speed, balancing my bow-on aspect angle in relationship to two Black Swans / middle front of convoy and one to my port.

It was reported that they were being seen by the enemy forces while they were 8-9 km away.

I got just within 3500 meters before I was seen. Clear night with calm weather and see. Other than staying pretty slow at 4kt, and minimizing my aspect angle as best i could in relation to those escorts. I mode NO effort to conceal my U-boat. I'm pretty sure that had I gone to decks awash, I might have gotten closer.

Other notes: The moon reflection on the water in M.E.P v6 is indeed broken by the mod and is absent. At some point I think I am going to re-work the 20km horizon mod for GWX and will upload it whenever I get to it, if anyone is interested.

There is something I find to be very sinister about the Black Swans. They are effective in game, and are my favorite ASW vessel in SH3.:ping:

[John Pancoast]

Thank you. As an aside, in the GWX Sim.cfg, you can change the following if you like, from:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

to the following

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=2500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

(aircraft fire machineguns/20mm wayyy too early in GWX.... the above corrects same)

************************************************** ****

Below is the GWX default visual sensor section of the Sensors.cfg.

;Visual.
Visual range factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Visual fog factor=1.1 ;[>=0]
Visual light factor=5.0 ;[>=0]
Visual waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual aspect=0.9 ;[>=0]
Visual enemy speed=0.2 ;[>=0]
Visual noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual sensor height factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Visual already tracking modifier=600 ;[detection probability modifier], most accurate, once a contact is detected it will lose it very hard
Visual decay time=200 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Visual uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

I need to obtain more information before I can reply effectively. AS long as you are not using any AI_Sensors.dat produced by Makman94, within M.E.P or not, that claims to 'fix GWX visual sensors,' that much is good.

I'm sorry John, my eyes are starting to cross and I'm afraid of losing track of enemy AI visual matters versus U-boat crew settings. I'm losing my place here. I will try to come at it again tomorrow. I swear that I'm really not trying to beat up on Makman. He isn't here to defend himself, but with all I've seen, I really cannot trust his sensor settings on any sort of clinical basis. Rubini was really good at finding neat stuff, but was often happy removing the shells from boiled eggs with a sledgehammer. Therefore, looking more closely at his works is indeed a worthwhile endeavor.

Other findings earlier today. Towards the beginning of this thread, (I think, will double check and edit if necessary.) Someone is using the SC-7 single mission as a measure for night vision and I wanted to see things for myself. (Pun intended.)

I ran just one test due to time constraints. Fully surfaced. 4kt approach speed, balancing my bow-on aspect angle in relationship to two Black Swans / middle front of convoy and one to my port.

It was reported that they were being seen by the enemy forces while they were 8-9 km away.

I got just within 3500 meters before I was seen. Clear night with calm weather and see. Other than staying pretty slow at 4kt, and minimizing my aspect angle as best i could in relation to those escorts. I mode NO effort to conceal my U-boat. I'm pretty sure that had I gone to decks awash, I might have gotten closer.

Other notes: The moon reflection on the water in M.E.P v6 is indeed broken by the mod and is absent. At some point I think I am going to re-work the 20km horizon mod for GWX and will upload it whenever I get to it, if anyone is interested.

There is something I find to be very sinister about the Black Swans. They are effective in game, and are my favorite ASW vessel in SH3.:ping:




Thanks for the aircraft fix. Never noticed as I always crash dive.



I've used Makman's work in NYGM in the past (not currently; stock NYGM env. being used), but never in GWX as I've always liked GWX's env. as is.


Regarding the SC7 mission, that was me to start this thread. But the problem was my crew was seeing the convoy at 16k, not the convoy seeing me to "early".
But since it was PAST ONE A.M. when you posted, the mistake is understandable :).



I completely understand your points about Makman's and Rubini's work. Unfortunate about the moon too.


Yes too about the Black Swan's. I've always thought that name sounds like something that should be a character's name from the "Kill Bill" series.....

[John Pancoast]

Possible another wrench in the works; I'm using the "Malfunctions and Sabotage" option of SH3 Commander.


The only AI file I could see it's "Randomizedevents.cfg" file affect, which controls this option, is the sensors.dat file.


This .dat file has a visual node that I do not know the purpose of. But I bet you do :)



Anyway fyi.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Possible another wrench in the works; I'm using the "Malfunctions and Sabotage" option of SH3 Commander.

The only AI file I could see it's "Randomizedevents.cfg" file affect, which controls this option, is the sensors.dat file.

This .dat file has a visual node that I do not know the purpose of. But I bet you do :)

Anyway fyi.

Hi John,
Really sorry about getting so bleary. Felt like a Noob when I realized you had started this post, as you mentioned above. I was indeed over-tired. I think everybody is having a tough week so I'll try to spare my current excuses.

Sensors.dat controls player sensors. The visual node controls your watch crew.

AI_Sensors.dat controls enemy sensors.

(I anything I write here is stuff you already know, hope you'll bear with me.)

I don't think that the malfunctions and sabotage option would disable the visual sensor, but for the purpose of creating a sterile test bed, my advice would be to remove it and anything else that may interfere with it. If testing is aimed at a release, then a clean installation is essentially mandatory to remove all doubt of data contamination.

The SC-7 single mission is a good place to start in many ways for testing. Calm sea, calm weather, and full moon.... the lattermost doesn't do anything IIRC. However, speaking of the moon, I fixed its reflection with some help from Jeff Groves. I am considering redoing the whole 20k horizon mod using much data from GWX. When it was all we had, 16km was great, but it is really nice to get away from the floating units at distance. 16k is still a damn sight better than 8k at any rate.

Side note: Ran SC-7 again last night. Decks awash. Got between middle and port Black Swans. U-boat speed 3kt. Enemy bearing 270 and 90 respectively, meaning largest aspect profile presented to NME was greatest. Spotted from 3000 meter range this time, improved by 500 meters.

John, I don't feel like I can give you a really good answer relating to the visual sensors. More than once, the community here has thought that we had it whipped. I imagine you remember one or more of those instances. There actually isn't enough string to tie your boots. If I have to chose a problem though, I'd choose to have my watch crew see everything in the dark, as long as they didn't fail during the day.

I realize this isn't much of an answer. If further 'improvements' are made going down the road here at SS. I would hold them highly suspect until observed to be consistent after much use inspite of any mod builder claim upon release.

Iit is my impression that NYGM and GWX address the matter as best can be, compared to other sources, and probably in that order of effectiveness. Maybe you could tell us.better than many, where things stand relating to visual sensor performance, since you play both mods.

At any rate, that is my deep thinking for the night. Hope it was at least quasi-usful info.

EDIT: Also, yes.... the 'slider thingy' I was trying to remember was the Hsie configuration file night vison variable entries, pointed out by ivanov.ruslan early in this thread.

[John Pancoast]

Hi John,
Really sorry about getting so bleary. Felt like a Noob when I realized you had started this post, as you mentioned above. I was indeed over-tired. I think everybody is having a tough week so I'll try to spare my current excuses.

Sensors.dat controls player sensors. The visual node controls your watch crew.

AI_Sensors.dat controls enemy sensors.

(I anything I write here is stuff you already know, hope you'll bear with me.)

I don't think that the malfunctions and sabotage option would disable the visual sensor, but for the purpose of creating a sterile test bed, my advice would be to remove and anything else that may interfere with it. If testing is aimed at a release, then a clean installation is essentially mandatory to remove all doubt of data contamination.

The SC-7 single mission is a good place to start in many ways for testing. Calm sea, calm weather, and full moon.... the lattermost doesn't do anything IIRC. However, speaking of the moon, I fixed its reflection with some help from Jeff Groves. I am considering redoing the whole 20k horizon mod using much data from GWX. When it was all we had, 16km was great, but it is really nice to get away from the floating units at distance. 16k is still a damn sight better than 8k at any rate.

Side note: Ran SC-7 again last night. Decks awash. got between middle and port Black Swans. Bearing 270 and 90 respectively meaning largest aspect profile presented to NME was greatest. Spotted from 3000 meter range this time, improved by 500 meters.

John, I don't feel like I can give you a really good answer relating to the visual sensors. More than once, the community here has thought that we had it whipped. I imagine you remember one or more of those instances. There actually isn't enough string to tie your boots. If I have to chose a problem though, I'd choose to have my watch crew see everything in the dark, as long as they didn't fail during the day.

I realize this isn't much of an answer. If further 'improvements' are made going down the road here at SS. I would hold them highly suspect until observed to be consistent after much use inspite of any mod builder claim upon release.

Iit is my impression that NYGM and GWX address the matter as best can be, compared to other sources, and probably in that order of effectiveness. Maybe you could tell us.better than many, where things stand relating to visual sensor performance, since you play both mods.

At any rate, that is my deep thinking for the night. Hope it was at least quasi-usful info.

No reason to apologize for anything. Appreciate your time and effort.

Thanks for the sensor info. Interesting that that node controls the crew visuals; maybe there's something to this.
I'll disable the malfunctions/sabotage option tomorrow and give SC 7 a try that way too and let you know how it goes.
I do not recall if I was using that Commander option when I started this thread.

I agree with your other general thoughts about this. If nothing else, at least it only happens on clear nights vs. all the time.

Relating to visual sensor performance in GWX/NYGM, I wasn't going to mention this but since you asked........:)

Now and then I've had a few moments of "how didn't that escort see me ?" during an attack. ONLY at night does this happen.
Out of curiosity I have then purposefully hit flank speed and charged right at the escort to test it's reactions.

I've been able to smash into the escort with no reaction of any kind from it including after i've hit it.

Good weather, bad weather (no rain or fog though), everything in between.
Like the "hit it with a ball peen hammer" comment you made about stock SH3.
It doesn't happen often but it can obviously make me wonder if that brilliant night attack I just did was really that brilliant.
Had it happen yesterday in an NYGM attack. Stock NYGM environment/sensors. Same with other installs where it's happened; always made sure I had the mod's (including GWX) stock environment/sensors.
I should say I also had it in a Rub 1.45 install. (I've done all kinds of campaigns :) )
It too had H.sie's night vision and SH3 Commander malfunction/sabotage options in use.

I have posted various threads on this in the recent past here. Kind of funny; in doing research on this, I came across a thread about NYGM 2.0 where it was thought it needed a fix because the escorts were seeing the player sub first instead of vice-versa as it was thought it should be.
So I found a download of 2.0 and tried it out. I actually kind of liked it that way ! Without getting into which is right or wrong there are actually a LOT of examples in Blair's books of this happening; at night an escort visually saw the sub first.
Of course part of that could be as simple as one crew was more alert than the other, etc. But it wasn't completely unusual.
But anyway......

Thinking about all this, I wonder if it's not related to the Commander option because:

- there are old threads about how it shouldn't be used but I never saw a definitive statement why not. NYGM specifically says not to, again without stating why not. The malfunctions/sabotage functions themselves do work in NYGM, so I guess that's not the reason not to use it.
I also posted a thread asking "why not" but it never got answered. Do you have any idea why it's not recommended to use ?

- wouldn't others have mentioned it, if it happened and they weren't using the Commander option ?
Or maybe they all thought their attack WAS brilliant :)

Anyway, curiouser and curiouser.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

As for 'why not' to use the malfunctions/sabotage option, I can only hazard a guess: that the random sensor breakage method used, may not be able to avoid periodically breaking the visual sensor. (U-boat crew on watch)


Regarding smashing into the vessel, maybe you somehow slipped between its sensor arc sweep. I dunno. I've had WTH moments on occasion without clear cause or consistency too, but unless they show a pattern, I just try not to fixate on the matter.


Cheers, I'm going to go look at something shiny now. :doh:

[John Pancoast]

As for 'why not' to use the malfunctions/sabotage option, I can only hazard a guess: that the random sensor breakage method used, may not be able to avoid periodically breaking the visual sensor. (U-boat crew on watch)


Regarding smashing into the vessel, maybe you somehow slipped between its sensor arc sweep. I dunno. I've had WTH moments on occasion without clear cause or consistency too, but unless they show a pattern, I just try not to fixate on the matter.


Cheers, I'm going to go look at something shiny now. :doh:


Good points, thanks again.

[John Pancoast]

Some test results. All with stock GWX sensor files and GWX 16k environment. No other mods other than H.sie patch as below. *Sh3 Commander was not used in any tests.
GWX SC7 single mission.

1. No H.sie night vision applied. Stock GWX sensors.cfg file.
- I was able to graphically see ships immediately on mission start.
- AI crew first spotted them/announced same at 13k.

2. H.sie night vision patch applied. No change to GWX sensors.cfg file.
- same as #1 above.

3. H.sie night vision patch applied. GWX sensors.cfg file modified per his default instructions.
- Same as #1 above for my vision.
- AI crew ranges increased to 14 -15k. The slightly increased AI range would be due to the changes to the sensors.cfg file per H.sie's.instructions.

*Since no tests involved SH3 Commander, that rules out it's malfunctions/sabotage option being the cause of the long distance night vision in this mission.

15k meters = 9.3 miles.

There are examples in Blair's books of escorts seeing a sub (!) at around these distances at night so I guess it's not unreasonable for the opposite to happen.
That of course is assuming the escort skipper's report info. was correct; didn't have range wrong, not exaggerating, etc.

Anyway, it may be just a case of "it is what it is" regardless of whether it's "realistic" or not. I also believe I would get similar results in NYGM with a similar test scenario.
In other words, I don't believe this is solely a GWX specific item. More of an Sh3 one.

Hope this helps.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Some test results. All with stock GWX sensor files and GWX 16k environment. No other mods other than H.sie patch as below. *Sh3 Commander was not used in any tests.
GWX SC7 single mission.

1. No H.sie night vision applied. Stock GWX sensors.cfg file.
- I was able to graphically see ships immediately on mission start.
- AI crew first spotted them/announced same at 13k.

2. H.sie night vision patch applied. No change to GWX sensors.cfg file.
- same as #1 above.

3. H.sie night vision patch applied. GWX sensors.cfg file modified per his default instructions.
- Same as #1 above for my vision.
- AI crew ranges increased to 14 -15k. The slightly increased AI range would be due to the changes to the sensors.cfg file per H.sie's.instructions.

*Since no tests involved SH3 Commander, that rules out it's malfunctions/sabotage option being the cause of the long distance night vision in this mission.

15k meters = 9.3 miles.

There are examples in Blair's books of escorts seeing a sub (!) at around these distances at night so I guess it's not unreasonable for the opposite to happen.
That of course is assuming the escort skipper's report info. was correct; didn't have range wrong, not exaggerating, etc.

Anyway, it may be just a case of "it is what it is" regardless of whether it's "realistic" or not. I also believe I would get similar results in NYGM with a similar test scenario.
In other words, I don't believe this is solely a GWX specific item. More of an Sh3 one.

Hope this helps.


Hmmm. Just for the sake of redundancy, If I am reading this right, U-boat crew night vision extended out further/became worse using Hsie's recommended fix. :hmmm:

[John Pancoast]

Hmmm. Just for the sake of redundancy, If I am reading this right, U-boat crew night vision extended out further/became worse using Hsie's recommended fix. :hmmm:




Correct. That is because the visual fog factor setting in stock GWX sensors.cfg is 1.1, where H.sie recommends it be set to 1.02 for the night vision patch.


Per his instructions readme, a setting larger than 1.02 enables the player to see slightly better (further) and the AI crew slightly worse (shorter) distances.


So since 1.1 is larger than 1.02, the crew would see slightly better (further) with the 1.02 setting he recommends.


I haven't got a chance to mess with the setting in his H.sie.ini file that is part of the patch and he gives info. on about changing too.


That is next.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Correct. That is because the visual fog factor setting in stock GWX sensors.cfg is 1.1, where H.sie recommends it be set to 1.02 for the night vision patch.


Per his instructions readme, a setting larger than 1.02 enables the player to see slightly better (further) and the AI crew slightly worse (shorter) distances.

So since 1.1 is larger than 1.02, the crew would see slightly better (further) with the 1.02 setting he recommends.

I haven't got a chance to mess with the setting in his H.sie.ini file that is part of the patch and he gives info. on about changing too.

That is next.


Cool, I'll keep an eye out for your reports.

[John Pancoast]

H.sie.ini file change results:


- using settings at both ends of the range H.sie recommends produced only very marginal AI crew spotting differences.
Lowering the setting very slightly decreased the visual range, raising it did the opposite.
Visual spotting was still in the 13k+ to 15k+ meters range.


My vision stayed the same throughout.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hmmm. Looks like things remain more or less where they started.


I wish we could know what value is being changed by the Hsie configuration file entries.






:up:

[John Pancoast]

Hmmm. Looks like things remain more or less where they started.


I wish we could know what value is being changed by the Hsie configuration file entries.






:up:


Yes, I was surprised that changing the .ini values had so little effect.