Iran/US conflict [Archive] - Page 2 - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Skybird

01-08-20, 07:39 AM

Bild Zeitung claims to have sources for that US defences took out all missiles fired at the US consulate in Erbil. Thats why there were no damages and losses.

Iraq says it received warnings from Iran short time ahead of the incoming attack. No word on whether the Iraqis handed the warning on to the Americans as well.

Iran rejects to hand over the blackbox of the Ukrainian 737. "Aviation Herald" reports that the Ukrainean embassy immediately released a message that it was no terror or missile strike - and that the message was deleted just short time later and replaced with a general travel warning for Iran. Iranian authorities spoke of a technical accident already a few minutes after the plane crashed. Thats what I call a competent research team! - Its very well possible, but not certain, that the primary message the Iranians wanted to send was not the strike on the US bases in Iraq, but what has happened to this civilian airliner. However, there is one contra to this theory: most people aboard were Iranians, says IRNA. But their count of victims gives three people more aboard than the official passenger list by CAO.

However, I think this will be all escalation for the moment. Iran saved its face, seems to have wanted to avoid a serious high-death-toll retaliation which woukld have forced the US retaliate in return again, and that Trump waits and takes long time before adressing the public with more thna a Tweet may be an indication that the WH does not consider further escalation as well. Iranian propaganda commandoes are rolling through the street and annoucne a smashing victory. The people at home feel proud. Objective achieved.

I bet 2:1 that this is it for the moment. What the future brigns, is somethign different. In the end, Iran may be a tougher nut than Iran was in 2003, but it cannot afford a full blown war with the Us at this point of time, and is in serious economic stress already. If Soleimani would not have been a likely candidate for the succession as head of state (maybe the real reason why the Americnas took him out: you do not want such a smart and efficient man to become leader of an enemy nation) , they maybe would not have reacted at all. Now a bitter fight for the vacant position of heir of the throne will unleash.

Catfish

01-08-20, 08:11 AM

Tchocky

01-08-20, 08:17 AM

Iran rejects to hand over the blackbox of the Ukrainian 737.

They are under no obligation to do so.

Skybird

01-08-20, 08:17 AM

It seems the US neglects active spying by humans, depending on general intelligence data obtained entirely digitally and by remote camera observations. Bad and insecure trend.
On this I agree, Elint AND Humint is wanted, the one cannot replace the other. However, the power of Elint should not be underestmated, due to automatization and infinte technical storage and analysis options its reach is very, very far. And Snowden illustrated that dramatically.

The Ukraineans have released their passnger list, it deviates significantly from that the Iranians claimed tio have. Iran sayid over 140 people were Iranians, only 30-40 foreigners, the Ukraineans say only 86 were Iranians, 63 from Kanada, 28 were of five other nationaities. Still, many Iranians on board. Woudl the regime kill so many of its own people for proaganda when it wants to use the attack as a carrier to deliver a message not to the Iranians but the West? I have a problem with the logic in this. As long as the message is not "See how willing we are to turn our own people into martyrs if it helps to kill some of yours." Nutty enough many people in the ME are to tick like this indeed.

Skybird

01-08-20, 08:26 AM

One cannot say this night was short in events: in the early morning the region around the nuclear plant at Busher had an earthquake of 4.5 Richter.

Jimbuna

01-08-20, 09:05 AM

Among the victims were 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians, 11 Ukrainians including all nine crew, 10 Swedes, four Afghans, three Britons and three Germans.

u crank

01-08-20, 09:44 AM

They are under no obligation to do so.

Correct. But failure to have an independant investigation will fuel the conspiracy theories.

Rockstar

01-08-20, 10:39 AM

If an aircraft is hit by a missile, this may well lead to technical failure of some sort..

The whole region is going crazy now. While i cannot say that the death of Suleimani has to be mourned after what he did, time and place was ill chosen.

It seems the US neglects active spying by humans, depending on general intelligence data obtained entirely digitally and by remote camera observations. Bad and insecure trend.

I wouldnt say we neglect HUMINT. Rather we had to develop and depend heavily on ELINT to see what was going on in the old Soviet Union. Thats the way it has always been with us and we've developed some pretty kewl toys since then too. Then there was the 2015 hack of the OMB security clearance data. I have no doubt that hurt our HUMINT network real bad by exposing the many people we may have used to furnish intel.

Onkel Neal

01-08-20, 10:42 AM

One cannot say this night was short in events: in the early morning the region around the nuclear plant at Busher had an earthquake of 4.5 Richter.

"earthquake" :haha:

Mr Quatro

01-08-20, 10:48 AM

If an aircraft is hit by a missile, this may well lead to technical failure of some sort..

True :up:

The whole region is going crazy now. While i cannot say that the death of Suleimani has to be mourned after what he did, time and place was ill chosen.

True :up:

It seems the US neglects active spying by humans, depending on general intelligence data obtained entirely digitally and by remote camera observations. Bad and insecure trend.

Not true :o we may never know of the sacrifices of undercover agents in foreign countries

Rockstar

01-08-20, 11:13 AM

Onkel Neal

01-08-20, 11:38 AM

Live Trump speech, parsing through the usual rambling gibberish, he's backing down.

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 11:44 AM

I take it like
'I'm holding a gun at your head. I will shoot you if I must. Do you feel lucky?'

Onkel Neal

01-08-20, 11:48 AM

Yeah, maybe so.

Skybird

01-08-20, 11:49 AM

"earthquake" :haha:
I admit I too had no real idea what to make of this news. :)

There is an old Germn SciFi movie, the first movie made by Roland Emmerich after he finished film academy - "Noah's Ark Principle". Interesting parallels... :D

Full movie with English subtitles. Solid movie, you can spend a nice evening with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h48B-83pV6A

Live Trump speech, parsing through the usual rambling gibberish, he's backing down.

As expected. Trump sees war as damaging to business, he does not really want one. Nor do his voters.

Rockstar

01-08-20, 11:51 AM

seriously thats all you got out of that?

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 11:52 AM

Pretty much told them We don't need your oil.
That right there is a direct threat!
:haha:
Guess what would go BOOM first!

The past Wars should teach you that take out the Oil? The machines are rendered non-working.

Rockstar

01-08-20, 11:58 AM

First he made it known we have the capabilty to find you and and your life. Also interesting he called Iran and its leadership a terrorist state and then invited everyone but china to put an end to Iranian terrorism. That same China that is using its economy to support Iran and its ambitions to control middle easteen affairs.

Aktungbby

01-08-20, 11:58 AM

Correct. But failure to have an independant investigation will fuel the conspiracy theories.actually the Ethiopians also refused to turn over the black box to Boeing in that crash of a 737zMAX in favor of giving it to another unbiased investigatory body; so there's precedent....

Onkel Neal

01-08-20, 12:11 PM

seriously thats all you got out of that?

Me? Yeah, that's the takeaway, after you filter through the rhetoric.

Jeff used the analogy of Trump holding a gun at their head. But he had that gun at their head before the missile strike.

Still backing down.

I don't mind, but it is what it is. They fired ballistic missiles from Iran specifically targeting US troops. We do nothing in return but give a confused speech.

Ok.

Mr Quatro

01-08-20, 12:19 PM

They fired ballistic missiles from Iran specifically targeting US troops. We do nothing in return but give a confused speech.

Ok.

Iran informed Iraq of what they were up to ... presumed Iraq told the US military to be ready ... at least one missile was shot down and the parts shown on TV.

The 737 was on fire before it crashed in flames :hmmm:

I would say Iran backed down first :yep:

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 12:19 PM

Aktungbby

01-08-20, 12:23 PM

With the exception of letting Iran and others know we will play hardball, we will stand our ground, we will defend our embassies and we will target the head of the snake. It appears we are going back to business as usual.

Iran's response to Solemani's death was a joke nothing more than PR stunt.

Live Trump speech, parsing through the usual rambling gibberish, he's backing down.

Yeah, maybe so.

But he had that gun at there head before the missile strike.

Still backing down.

First he made it known we have the capabilty to find you and and your life. Also interesting he called Iran and its leadership a terrorist state and then invited everyone but china to put an end to Iranian terrorism. That same China that is using its economy to support Iran and its ambitions to control middle easteen affairs.Much like the decision to drop the atomic bomb in a clearly defeated Japan was in reality a message to Stalin for his post-war iron curtain consideration... the snakehead strike against an Iranian general and his Shia militia sidekick(a two for one opportunity:yeah:) sends a big 'whoa' to fatboy in North Korea's aggressive policy(s). He now has to consider that next meeting with the 'blond meglomaniac dealmaker' could end disasterously as he arrives at the customary DMZ in his unsanctioned Mercedes-Maybach armored limo...clearly the 'Tweeter-In-Chief' can, will, and has drawn a red line in the sand!:ping::ping::ping: one thing all dictators understand: "Fear is an instrument of state" and we got Raptors with Hellfire missiles; and a certain penchant for using them... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-07/trump-s-targeted-iran-killing-is-kim-jong-un-s-biggest-fear (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-07/trump-s-targeted-iran-killing-is-kim-jong-un-s-biggest-fear)

Rockstar

01-08-20, 12:31 PM

Sorry missed that then, I was driving to work when I was listening all I heard was NATO, Russia. Inviting China is just as good. They are supporting what Trump just called a terrorist state Iran economically and they will be concerned about how that looks on the world stage.

Rockstar

01-08-20, 12:44 PM

Wars are nolonger fought with grand armies its fought with economies and currency. Also backing down is when you allow embassies to be overrun and your personel slaughtered. I think this time we did a pretty good job making it known we will not let that happen again.

Also add that I couldnt see us escalting this into a shooting war. They told us when and where, they telegraphed their punch and used it for their own propaganda.

Tchocky

01-08-20, 12:53 PM

Much like the decision to drop the atomic bomb in a clearly defeated Japan was in reality a message to Stalin for his post-war iron curtain consideration... the snakehead strike against an Iranian general and his Shia militia sidekick(a two for one oppotunity:yeah:) sends a big 'whoa' to fatboy in North Korea's aggressive policy(s). He now has to consider that next meeting with the 'blond meglomaniac dealmaker' could end disasterously as he arrives at the customary DMZ in his unsanctioned Mercedes-Maybach armored limo...clearly the 'Tweeter-In-Chief' can, will, and has drawn a red line in the sand!:ping::ping::ping: one thing all dictators understand: "Fear is an instrument of state" and we got Raptors with Hellfire missiles; and a certain penchant for using them...

I wouldn't see this at all as a message to NK.

NK has nuclear weapons, and look how soft and soapy the treatment from the US is.

Iran does not have nuclear weapons and look what happens.

UglyMowgli

01-08-20, 12:56 PM

Among the victims were 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians, 11 Ukrainians including all nine crew, 10 Swedes, four Afghans, three Britons and three Germans.

Among them 30 from my city (Edmonton) and 27 where student or teacher at my University. Sad day

mapuc

01-08-20, 02:44 PM

Catfish

01-08-20, 03:12 PM

^ No Mapuc, you are not :03:

Subnuts

01-08-20, 03:31 PM

Call me a pessimist, but I'm still on pins and needles hoping we don't have an "Archduke Ferdinand" moment sometime in the next few weeks which plunges us into World War III. :o

Skybird

01-08-20, 03:44 PM

Both sides were communicating to each other in strikes.

US: "Hello, long time no see!"
Iran: "Oh, Hi, I'm in a hurry, sorry."

Both sides do not want a war at this time, for different reasons.

However, the Archduke Ferdinand could be delivered by the Frankenstein monsters that Iran has created: the variuous Shia militia it claled to life thropughout the region and thjat may decide that they do not want to listen to their masters this time.

So further events are possible, but unlikely to come form Iran directly, but from its proxies.

Propaganda points scored by both sides. Thats why all are willing to live with the status quo of today, for the time being. And Trump gets a bonus point for his election campaign by having taken out a real big really bad fish - something that Obama and Bush did not have the guts to do. I must give him that.

Onm the other hanbd,m the ZUS pays a heavy stratgeic price. The reoigme is strongthened, the opposition to it has reunited behind it, and the inflouenc eof Iran inside Iraq has grown massively and the antipathy inside Iraq to the US has decreased. Whether the kill was worth this price, future will show. I dare no assessment today.

Mind you, Trump promised to move the US out of its wars, not moving it into a new one. And his voters want not to be driven into a new war.

Mr Quatro

01-08-20, 03:55 PM

I have tried to analyze, with my little knowledge I possess, this attack.

A country consist of two type of people-those who only knows what the Politicians and the news tells them
and the politicians who know a little bit more.

The ordinary Iranian wanted revenge for the killing of this military leader.
The Iranian government know they would not stand a chance in a head to head combat with USA.

So they not only chose those target, they also gave the Iraqi government a pre-warning(I guess they predicted Iraq would warn USA troops)
They missed those targets on purpose(been said by some Danish military)

They manage to hit two flies in one blow
1. They gave what the people wanted - revenge
2. They manage to prevent further US engagement
(If they had attacked other bases like in SA or Kuwait or some military warship in the Hormuz) an American response would have been)(forgot rest of the words))

Yes I know I'm wrong..

Markus

That's okay Markus, but you left out the Boeing 737 plane crash before dawn no less just hours after the missile strike on US Forces.

I seriously contemplate that this was an evil deed of Iran disguised as an accident in order to hurt Boeing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/world/middleeast/iran-plane-crash-boeing-ukraine.html

Experts say that is an extremely rare sequence of events, even in a catastrophic accident — and all the more unexpected in a relatively new plane, built in 2016, of a model with a very good safety record

The plane had reached an altitude of almost 8,000 feet and a speed of more than 300 miles per hour

“Planes just don’t blow up in midair,” said Richard Aboulafia, vice president for analysis at Teal Group, an aviation consulting firm. “It doesn’t work like that.”

Skybird

01-08-20, 04:07 PM

And now influential Shia leader Al Sadr has declared this crisis to be over, and sent his militia fighters home that just days ago he had reactivated and called onto the streets.

ET2SN

01-08-20, 04:08 PM

Much like the decision to drop the atomic bomb in a clearly defeated Japan was in reality a message to Stalin for his post-war iron curtain consideration...

My Dad was to be part of the invasion force if the bomb didn't work. :yep: Stalin wasn't a part of that discussion.

August

01-08-20, 04:12 PM

Live Trump speech, parsing through the usual rambling gibberish, he's backing down.

But no Americans were injured and no American assets were damaged. Leveling their oil fields or cities would be a tad over reactive don't ya think?
Apparently he has instituted more economic sanctions. What else or instead should he have done in response?

mapuc

01-08-20, 04:26 PM

Aktungbby

01-08-20, 05:10 PM

My Dad was to be part of the invasion force if the bomb didn't work. :yep: Stalin wasn't a part of that discussion.

SO WAS MINE! HE INFORMED IN THE SIXTIES THAT I WOULDN'T BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE BOMB. HE FLEW B 29'S IN WWII AND WAS ON TINIAN WHEN THE ENOLA GAY TOOK OFF. As with many people, Truman was shocked by the enormous losses suffered at Okinawa. American intelligence reports indicated (correctly) that, although Japan could no longer meaningfully project its power overseas, it retained an army of two million soldiers and about 10,000 aircraft -- half of them kamikazes -- for the final defense of the homeland. (During postwar studies the United States learned that the Japanese had correctly anticipated where in Kyushu the initial landings would have taken place.) Although Truman hoped that the atomic bomb might give the United States an edge in postwar diplomacy,:timeout:(STALIN) the prospect of avoiding another year of bloody warfare in the end may well have figured most importantly in his decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan. SAVING AMERICAN LIVES CAME FIRST BUT O'L JOE STALIN FIGURED INTO THE EQUATION....https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945/potsdam_decision.htm THE REPERCUSSIONS OF THE STALIN LANDGRAB ARE STILL EVIDENT TODAY: JAPAN STILL DOES NOT HAVE BACK THE KURIL ISLANDS AS RUSSIA NEVER RETURNED THEM. AFTER ACQUIRING THEM DURING STALIN'S TOKEN ASSISTANCE TO AID THE ALLIES AGAINST JAPAN. IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT KIM JUNG UN'S TEST MISSILES AVOID NARROWLY GOING NEAR 'RUSSIAN TERRITORY' PREFERRING TO AGGRAVATE JAPANESE TERITORY:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg/500px-North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png/300px-Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png)< Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri and Etorofu. ARE THE DISPUTED TERRITORIES HELD ILLEGALLY BY RUSSIA SINCE 1945. https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html (https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html) UNDER NEGOTIATION TO THIS DAY AND THE DPRK MAKES GOOD USE OF THE GEOGRAPHIC LOOPHOLE AS PUTIN "DOTH NOT PROTEST" HIS N. KOREAN ALLY'S NUKE MISSILE TESTS TOO MUCH. AMAZING HOW POTSDAM CONFERENCE 1945 STILL AFFECTS THE PACIFIC REGION MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY LATER....THE CHINESE IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA ISLAND DISPUTES ARE JUST KEEPING UP WITH THEIR 'COMMIE' BUDDIES IN THE KURILS IMHO.:O:

Bilge_Rat

01-08-20, 05:36 PM

Live Trump speech, parsing through the usual rambling gibberish, he's backing down.

True, but the next logical retaliation would have been to hit military targets inside Iran which would mean an actual war. No one wants war, not Trump or ayatollah Khamenei.

I actually think of this as a win for Trump. Now the Iranians know that if they push too much, Trump will hit back hard.

August

01-08-20, 05:42 PM

A question about your local politicians acting in this crisis.

Here mostly those politicians who belong to the left is suddenly expert on middle east and American politics.

They are critic against Trump(as always) and his politics or lack of politics against Iran/Middle east.

So how is your politicians acting..?

Markus

There used to be a saying here that "politics end at the waters edge" meaning that we may squabble among ourselves over domestic issues but present a united front when it comes to foreign policy. That is pretty much dead now.

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 05:46 PM

A question about your local politicians acting in this crisis.

Are you kidding?
They can't even decide or come to a complete decision on impeachment let alone what the official breakfast will be tomorrow!

So they shot a few missiles that SHOULD have hit targets aimed at.
They ran their mouths and rattled swords.

Given that We can turn them into a parking lot at the cost of billions of dollars?
Is it worth it to set them back 3 months?
I don't think so. It would be to easy to do.
I contend that drone shoot down was allowed. Of all the drones we have over there?
Don't you thing allowing one to get shot down is a bit suspicious!
Best way to screw with someone is to give them something they THINK they want!
At that point they divert resources that could have been used elsewhere.
Pretty sure We did that to Hitler during WWII
But then again? Many here don't care what History and it's lessons teach.

August

01-08-20, 05:54 PM

SAVING AMERICAN LIVES CAME FIRST BUT O'L JOE STALIN FIGURED INTO THE EQUATION.

Well kinda but the Soviets already knew the potential power of an atomic bomb and their spies had kept them informed as to our progress in making them so our use of a nuke against Japan might have had a proof in the pudding benefit to it but I think the edge that the writer you quoted was really talking about was just our possession of them.

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 06:04 PM

Biggest threat I see to the USA right now is the Dems.

August

01-08-20, 06:16 PM

It's looking more and more like the Iranians accidentally shot down that Ukrainian airliner.

The plane might have been shot down in the fog of war, one military source said. "The Iranians might have been hyped up, expecting a response and freaking out when they thought they saw an American air attack," the source told the Washington Examiner. "It's possible this was a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/a-very-strange-coincidence-diplomats-suspect-terrorists-brought-down-ukrainian-plane-in-iran

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 06:55 PM

I think it was Aliens!

There are no solid facts! Do you really want to contaminate a perfectly good
good thread of non facts with even more speculation of non facts?
OOPS! Forgot that is what is done here!
:haha:

Yes. Things are a bit cray cray what with all the Impeachment stuff and now the 'We killed your Boy in the Hood' thing.
More people are whacked in Detroit over turf then over there when you do the averages.
Why make it a bigger deal then it is?
Cause it sells.
Yeah. You all buy it and think it's a big deal. Once you think about it with an honest look?
It's business as usual. Not a damned thing has changed since WWII.

ET2SN

01-08-20, 07:21 PM

SO WAS MINE! HE INFORMED IN THE SIXTIES THAT I WOULDN'T BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE BOMB. HE FLEW B 29'S IN WWII AND WAS ON TINIAN WHEN THE ENOLA GAY TOOK OFF. SAVING AMERICAN LIVES CAME FIRST BUT O'L JOE STALIN FIGURED INTO THE EQUATION....https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945/potsdam_decision.htm THE REPERCUSSIONS OF THE STALIN LANDGRAB ARE STILL EVIDENT TODAY: JAPAN STILL DOES NOT HAVE BACK THE KURIL ISLANDS AS RUSSIA NEVER RETURNED THEM. AFTER ACQUIRING THEM DURING STALIN'S TOKEN ASSISTANCE TO AID THE ALLIES AGAINST JAPAN. IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT KIM JUNG UN'S TEST MISSILES AVOID NARROWLY GOING NEAR 'RUSSIAN TERRITORY' PREFERRING TO AGGRAVATE JAPANESE TERITORY:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg/500px-North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png/300px-Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png)< Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri and Etorofu. ARE THE DISPUTED TERRITORIES HELD ILLEGALLY BY RUSSIA SINCE 1945. https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html (https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html) UNDER NEGOTIATION TO THIS DAY AND THE DPRK MAKES GOOD USE OF THE GEOGRAPHIC LOOPHOLE AS PUTIN "DOTH NOT PROTEST" HIS N. KOREAN ALLY'S NUKE MISSILE TESTS TOO MUCH. AMAZING HOW POTSDAM CONFERENCE 1945 STILL AFFECTS THE PACIFIC REGION MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY LATER....THE CHINESE IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA ISLAND DISPUTES ARE JUST KEEPING UP WITH THEIR 'COMMIE' BUDDIES IN THE KURILS IMHO.:O:

I've seen that argument and it supposes that the US leadership was omnipotent in terms of Russia while it was fighting a war in the Pacific.
If I had to guess, 99.999% of the US strategy was aimed at Japan and not at Russia. :)

The US had experience with Russia in terms of Lend/Lease so I think they had a good idea of who they were dealing with. The US didn't "want" Russia involved with the Japanese invasion in their over-all strategy. The US also understood why Germany failed to invade Russia (massive land mass where casualties weren't that important to the Russians) and that the Russian presence in the western Pacific was marginal, to say the least.

Also consider what happened to the USAAF/USAF between 1945 and 1950. If the US was concentrating on Russia that much, why did they "build down" the force?

Jeff-Groves

01-08-20, 08:23 PM

If I had to guess, 99.999% of the US strategy was aimed at Japan and not at Russia.

I'd sleep better at night if I didn't know someone actually believes that!
:har:

Here's the challenge now.
Try to post without ignorance of facts.

I'd say we get 3 responses with actual proven facts before it breaks down.
Tick Tok people! I ain't stay up all night to see nonsense.

Aktungbby

01-08-20, 08:58 PM

If I had to guess, 99.999% of the US strategy was aimed at Japan and not at

I'd sleep better at night if I didn't know someone actually believes that!
C'mon now a little mercy! It was 89.666% which is close enough for gover.....errr:subsim: work; besides, I never quibble with a skilled professional who can tell whale farts from cold war Soviet subs opening their outer torpedo ports:o

Skybird

01-08-20, 09:02 PM

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/08/politics/iran-briefing-senators/index.html

Ha, I waited for it.

ET2SN

01-08-20, 09:04 PM

I'd sleep better at night if I didn't know someone actually believes that!
:har:

Here's the challenge now.
Try to post without ignorance of facts.

I'd say we get 3 responses with actual proven facts before it breaks down.
Tick Tok people! I ain't stay up all night to see nonsense.

Aw, geez. I'm sorry my conversation with someone else disappointed you. :haha:

Onkel Neal

01-08-20, 11:18 PM

But no Americans were injured and no American assets were damaged. Leveling their oil fields or cities would be a tad over reactive don't ya think?
Apparently he has instituted more economic sanctions. What else or instead should he have done in response?

I just believe if he's gonna talk tough, he should follow through.

ET2SN

01-09-20, 12:27 AM

besides, I never quibble with a skilled professional who can tell whale farts from cold war Soviet subs opening their outer torpedo ports:o

I wasn't a sonar tech, I ruined my hearing listening to radar. :Kaleun_Wink:

I could also take a whizz without sitting down, thank you, so definitely not a sonar tech. :up:

If the whales felt gassy, it wasn't my problem.

:D

ikalugin

01-09-20, 02:53 AM

SO WAS MINE! HE INFORMED IN THE SIXTIES THAT I WOULDN'T BE HERE IF NOT FOR THE BOMB. HE FLEW B 29'S IN WWII AND WAS ON TINIAN WHEN THE ENOLA GAY TOOK OFF. SAVING AMERICAN LIVES CAME FIRST BUT O'L JOE STALIN FIGURED INTO THE EQUATION....https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945/potsdam_decision.htm THE REPERCUSSIONS OF THE STALIN LANDGRAB ARE STILL EVIDENT TODAY: JAPAN STILL DOES NOT HAVE BACK THE KURIL ISLANDS AS RUSSIA NEVER RETURNED THEM. AFTER ACQUIRING THEM DURING STALIN'S TOKEN ASSISTANCE TO AID THE ALLIES AGAINST JAPAN. IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT KIM JUNG UN'S TEST MISSILES AVOID NARROWLY GOING NEAR 'RUSSIAN TERRITORY' PREFERRING TO AGGRAVATE JAPANESE TERITORY:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg/500px-North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Korean_missile_launches_over_Japan.svg) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png/300px-Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kuril-Islands-Northern-Territories-of-Japan-Map.png)< Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri and Etorofu. ARE THE DISPUTED TERRITORIES HELD ILLEGALLY BY RUSSIA SINCE 1945. https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html (https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/overview.html) UNDER NEGOTIATION TO THIS DAY AND THE DPRK MAKES GOOD USE OF THE GEOGRAPHIC LOOPHOLE AS PUTIN "DOTH NOT PROTEST" HIS N. KOREAN ALLY'S NUKE MISSILE TESTS TOO MUCH. AMAZING HOW POTSDAM CONFERENCE 1945 STILL AFFECTS THE PACIFIC REGION MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY LATER....THE CHINESE IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA ISLAND DISPUTES ARE JUST KEEPING UP WITH THEIR 'COMMIE' BUDDIES IN THE KURILS IMHO.:O:

"Token assistance" that was a more significant factor in Japanese decision making than the two nuclear attacks as it broke the last major Japanese grouping in Manchuria and (through Soviet entry into the war with Japan) any chance of negotiated surrender (that they were hoping for - through Soviets)?

I see that the myth that US atomic bombings were the decisive factor is strong with you, but then the post was in capslock so I am uncertain if it was serious.

https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2015-08/1440437384_169.jpg

Note that Japanese actually released the islands during the original WW2 resolution negotiations but backtracked by the 1960s.

ikalugin

01-09-20, 03:02 AM

Well kinda but the Soviets already knew the potential power of an atomic bomb and their spies had kept them informed as to our progress in making them so our use of a nuke against Japan might have had a proof in the pudding benefit to it but I think the edge that the writer you quoted was really talking about was just our possession of them.

Yes, when Truman informed Stalin about the Trinity test Stalin did not respond in any major way because he already new about the test and Truman, from what I recall, misinterpreted this lack of enthusiasm as ignorance of the nuclear capability.

ikalugin

01-09-20, 03:05 AM

I've seen that argument and it supposes that the US leadership was omnipotent in terms of Russia while it was fighting a war in the Pacific.
If I had to guess, 99.999% of the US strategy was aimed at Japan and not at Russia. :)

The US had experience with Russia in terms of Lend/Lease so I think they had a good idea of who they were dealing with. The US didn't "want" Russia involved with the Japanese invasion in their over-all strategy. The US also understood why Germany failed to invade Russia (massive land mass where casualties weren't that important to the Russians) and that the Russian presence in the western Pacific was marginal, to say the least.

Also consider what happened to the USAAF/USAF between 1945 and 1950. If the US was concentrating on Russia that much, why did they "build down" the force?

I wonder why US demanded Soviet entry into the war with Japan after victory over Germany then and why while both parties were planning landing operations on the main Japanese islands (which for the Soviets would have been continuation of existing island hopping campaign - from Kurils and Sakhalin to Hokaido) US was assisting the Soviets in building up the relevant amphib capabilities.

Really makes you think, but then yes, US did get Japanese to the point where they were ready to tip over and go for negotiated surrender, with Soviet entry into the war pushing them from that position to unconditional surrender that Allies agreed upon.

As to the USAF build down - US assumed that it would have nuclear monopoly for longer and that the nuclear weapons could win wars by themselves, with nuclear weapons requiring fewer delivery systems than the conventional bombs.

Skybird

01-09-20, 07:15 AM

I just believe if he's gonna talk tough, he should follow through.
One should act like that, yes, but what did you expect? He is
a.) a politician
b.) an opportunist
c.) a careless man
d.) sees himself as a "deal-maker"
e.) has blinked before, and repeatedly
f.) said he wants no more new wars, but get the US out of the existing ones.

I doubted before that he would be the tough basterd he poses to be if he raises a bluff and someobdy calls cards.

He won a small scoring, yes, the bad guy is dead, but not without the Us strategic weight paying a high price for it. The Iranian regime emerges stronger than before from this, Amwerican reputation suffers another blow and appears weaker from this.

In other words: he cooks his coffee with ordinary water, too, like everybody before him did as well. No messiah. No superman. Its all bluff, shine, and facade. And before somebody now says: "But look at the stocks values" - my reply is look at the parallel development of the "Bilanzsumme" (balance sheet totals?) of the ECB and FED - then you know were the stock "value" is coming from, and at what longterm cost. They are at record heights. And these records are a disaster and anything but positive. Its all shine and facade. Also, their standings are a trap from which there is no escape. Try to reduce them - and see what happens. Damned if you do, damned if you don 't. Its blown up. Its called a bubble.

Mr Quatro

01-09-20, 08:54 AM

Gentlemen this is not a WWII thread :o

Looks like I was right :yep:

https://endtimeheadlines.org/2020/01/update-iran-plane-was-most-likely-shot-down-as-crash-pics-show-obvious-projectile-holes-say-experts/?fbclid=IwAR0Rb5hNwLEH23wCemq6gODN7-CG2g17YhfTBBxrZOcjXK0r-zMyxOja5eQ

A plane that crashed killing 176 people hours after an Iranian missile strike on US bases was “likely” shot down and wreckage shows “obvious projectile holes”, experts say. The Kiev-bound Ukraine International Airlines jet came down shortly after taking off from Tehran Airport in Iran this morning, killing everyone on board.

Jimbuna

01-09-20, 09:14 AM

The US says it is "ready to engage without preconditions in serious negotiations" with Iran following the countries' exchange of hostilities.

In a letter to the UN, the US justified the killing of Iranian General Qasem Soleimani as an act of self-defence.

Iran retaliated by firing missiles at airbases housing US forces in Iraq, causing no casualties. It also told the UN it was an act of self-defence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51043559

No doubt this article, if true, will be a little contentious depending on which side your viewpoint/opinion is on.

mapuc

01-09-20, 11:50 AM

True strength is not the ability to crush your enemy, but the ability to forgive his aggression.

Markus

Aktungbby

01-09-20, 12:01 PM

Looks like I was right :yep:
Well if they can do that so can we; in which case the shoot down by the USS VINCENNES of Iran Air 655 in 1988, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655) is now a forgiveable offence!!?? I wonder if the Iranian Postal Service will create a stamp out of it this time? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/Iran-stamp-Scott2335.jpgOh wait when they do it it's the Will of Allah; when we do it it's Infidel Evil ??!!:doh: The event sparked an intense international controversy, with Iran condemning the attack. In mid-July 1988, Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Akbar_Velayati) asked the United Nations Security Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council) to condemn the United States saying the attack "could not have been a mistake" and was a "criminal act", a "massacre", and an "atrocity". George H. W. Bush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush), at the time vice president of the United States in the Reagan administration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_administration), defended his country at the United Nations by arguing that the U.S. attack had been a wartime incident and that the crew of Vincennes had acted appropriately to the situation. @ mr. quarto: apologies! I know this is not an Iran-Iraq War thread either!:D :shucks: :arrgh!: but the Iranians are still pissed about it: Nine months after the downing of Iran Air Flight 655, on the morning of March 10, 1989, Rogers' wife Sharon escaped uninjured when a pipe bomb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_bomb) exploded and set fire to her minivan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minivan) as she sat stopped at a red light across the street from the University Towne Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Towne_Center,_San_Diego,_California) shopping mall in San Diego. The van was registered in the name of Will Rogers III, and many people at the time of the bombing suspected that terrorism was involved. Five months later, the Associated Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) reported that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) (FBI) had shifted focus away from terrorism towards the possibility of someone with a personal vendetta against Captain Rogers. As of 2003, the bombing of Rogers' van remains an unsolved case, despite a major investigation involving at some time up to 300 police and FBI agents. On February 17, 1993, the case was featured on the TV show Unsolved Mysteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsolved_Mysteries), but no additional information was uncovered. 31 years after the incident, in July 2019, the Iranian English-language newspaper Tehran Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Times) published a letter addressing Rogers personally, asking him, eighty years old at the time, to confess to willfully shooting down the airliner.

Skybird

01-09-20, 12:25 PM

Oooops! US claims Iran shot down Ukrainian airplane with a missile, by mistake.

P.S., Sorry Mr. quattro. I lost track of what is going on due to all that WW2 reference here.

Onkel Neal

01-09-20, 01:52 PM

True strength is not the ability to crush your enemy, but the ability to forgive his aggression.

Markus

Uh, disagree :)

ikalugin

01-09-20, 02:58 PM

Uh, disagree :)

If I may:

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities... It is best to win without fighting.

Skybird

01-09-20, 04:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab6GyR_5N6c

mapuc

01-09-20, 05:14 PM

The Ukrainian airliner was shot down by Iranian and it was a mistake-this is the information I got through our news channel.

They don't think it will result in some punishment.

It's sad nevertheless.

Markus

Jimbuna

01-10-20, 07:16 AM

Video footage of the incident here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51062369

And here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7r4VMTM2GE

Commander Wallace

01-10-20, 07:52 AM

^ meanwhile, Iran has invited investigators into the crash site that they have completely cleaned up. Iran is bulldozing the area ahead of any investigation.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2020/01/10/Iran-cleans-airplane-crash-site-ahead-of-Ukrainian-investigators-arrival-CBS.html

https://www.businessinsider.sg/iran-bulldozers-ukrainian-jet-crash-site-complicate-investigation-2020-1/

Does this sound like they are trying to cover things up to you ?:hmph:

Tchocky

01-10-20, 08:27 AM

Sounds like a fairly massive screwup on behalf of the Iranian military.

u crank

01-10-20, 08:46 AM

Sounds like a fairly massive screwup on behalf of the Iranian military.

Yep. And the people involved will likely be 'disappeared'.

Jimbuna

01-10-20, 10:06 AM

The crash of Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 with the loss of 176 lives came just hours after Iran carried out missile strikes on two airbases housing US forces in Iraq.

US media have speculated that the airliner may have been mistaken for a warplane as Iran prepared for possible US retaliation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51062369

Sounds plausible to me.

Mr Quatro

01-10-20, 10:08 AM

Iran is going to be the laughing stock of the world :yep:

Can you imagine these fools in charge of nuclear weapons? :o

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/01/10/iran-plane-crash-not-caused-missile-iran-denying-us-canada/4429314002/

Ali Rabiei, a spokesperson for the Iranian government, also accused the United States of spreading misinformation

"What is obvious for us, and what we can say with certainty, is that no missile hit the plane," Abedzadeh said. "If they are really sure, they should come and show their findings to the world" in accordance with international standards.

"It is unfortunate that the psychological operation of the U.S. government, and those supporting it knowingly and unknowingly, are adding insult to the injury of the bereaved families and victimizing them for certain goals by propagating such fallacies," Rabiei said.

ikalugin

01-10-20, 10:17 AM

Remember that time US shot down the air liner in the region?

Skybird

01-10-20, 10:34 AM

Sounds plausible to me.
To me as well.

There were too many Iranians aboard as if a hypothesis of "message-sending to the west" makes sense.

However, it needs evidence given by those who raise the claim. If they do not release it, its just hear-say, and unproven claim.

Commander Wallace

01-10-20, 10:54 AM

Remember that time US shot down the air liner in the region?

Remember that time Russian forces shot down Malaysia Airlines, flight 17 on the 17th of July 2014 in the Ukraine ? Albeit, with denials from Russia.

Aktungbby

01-10-20, 12:34 PM

Yep. And the people involved will likely be 'disappeared'.the Iranian report confirmed that both of the "black boxes" that contain data and cockpit communications from the plane had been recovered, though they sustained damage...and some parts of their memory was lost...
How terribly convenient; now the facts will be 'disappeared' too! Tis the will of AllahBBY:yep: but now they at least owe the captain of the USS Vincennes an apology for his shootdown of IranAir 655!:O:

Rockstar

01-10-20, 12:57 PM

Aggressive action by Russians? Ummm NO. I cant imagine they'd place a ship in jeopardy as they dont have that many. You can see clearly early on @ 1:00 the U.S. ship is overtaking it could even very well be considered a crossing situation. Either rule would require the ship to port (U.S. ship) to take early and substantial action and keep out of the way of other vessel.

As the Russian ship approaches from astern I'm watching the wash and I seem to think the U.S. ship may have even slowed down some in front of the Russian one. Technically however I think its now the Russians job to give way.

No violations really since no collision had occurred, a miss by a foot is just as good as a miss by a mile. Im sure things like this happened a lot during the cold war. But with todays instant access to information governments and captains really need be careful not to embarrass themselves.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/10/politics/russian-warship-us-aircraft-carrier-video/index.html

Mr Quatro

01-10-20, 01:41 PM

Yep. And the people involved will likely be 'disappeared'.

Especially if it was on purpose to hurt President Trump, the USA, Boeing aircraft
and even make it look like an accident, but to deny it happen with the whole world watching ...

This is laughable and proves that Iran can not be trusted with a nuclear weapon. :hmmm:

Did you know that this general (whats his name) called for a nuclear cloud over Israel ... Think about that one :o

Skybird

01-10-20, 03:36 PM

The US should have targetted a second high ranking Al Kuds commander, their chief of finances. The attack failed.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/10/politics/us-yemen-iran-operation/index.html

August

01-10-20, 04:38 PM

Remember that time Russian forces shot down Malaysia Airlines, flight 17 on the 17th of July 2014 in the Ukraine ? Albeit, with denials from Russia.

Then there was Korean Airlines flight 700 back in1983, except in that incident they knew it was an airliner full of civilians before they shot it down.

Mr Quatro

01-10-20, 05:36 PM

Then there was Korean Airlines flight 700 back in1983, except in that incident they knew it was an airliner full of civilians before they shot it down.

That was the one that all of the passengers shoes were missing in, right? :o

But someone saw them all lined up on the beach I think :yep:

ET2SN

01-10-20, 05:36 PM

Actually, it was later de-classified that there was an RC-135 operating in that area (KAL007).

u crank

01-10-20, 05:58 PM

Especially if it was on purpose to hurt President Trump, the USA, Boeing aircraft
and even make it look like an accident, but to deny it happen with the whole world watching ...

I don't think it was intentional, I think it was probably a combination of incompetence and zealotry.

This is laughable and proves that Iran can not be trusted with a nuclear weapon. :hmmm:

Ha ha. Never thought of that. Great, thanks for the nightmares. :D

Aktungbby

01-10-20, 06:15 PM

Then there was Korean Airlines flight 700 back in1983, except in that incident they knew it was an airliner full of civilians before they shot it down.nonsense! it was a plot to kill a US Congreessman, Larry McDonald, who was also president of the anticommunist John Birch Society!:D

mapuc

01-10-20, 06:37 PM

There's something I can't get strait in this story. Maybe you can help me out.

Yesterday after getting home after work I turned on my telly to watch the latest news
Here I could see hear and read-that the Danish forces with others at the base who was attacked got a warning 6 hour prior to the missile attack.

If my memory aren't wrong. FAA and other similar organization warned civilian aircraft before the start of the first Iraqi war or was it at the second Iraqi war.
Remember it from Danish and Swedish news then.

Why didn't the Iraqi government say to civilian aircraft-Our airspace is closed between xx.xx hour and until xx.xx hours ?

The attack have to be a surprise you may say...don't forget the allied got this warning 6 hours before.

Secondly-
The Danish soldiers who was at the base when Iran attacked it, will get psychological help to get through their trauma after this attack.

Are other allied who was at this base also getting psychological help ?

Markus

Rockstar

01-10-20, 06:56 PM

Yes there is a great number of organizations, peers and professionals here and abroad that are available. But if Im not mistaken mandatory attendance seldom does any good. Its something the soldier must want too do.

Commander Wallace

01-10-20, 07:00 PM

Then there was Korean Airlines flight 700 back in1983, except in that incident they knew it was an airliner full of civilians before they shot it down.

Actually, it was Korean airlines flight 007 but you are right regarding the circumstances. I neglected to mention it as I didn't want it to seem like I was piling on. :yep:

Mr Quatro

01-10-20, 07:30 PM

nonsense! it was a plot to kill a US Congreessman, Larry McDonald, who was also president of the anticommunist John Birch Society!:D

That was the thought of the day OMG what year was that?

1983?

What year did the Berlin wall fall down?

Only a discerning person could put two and two together that these two items were judgement from above.

The historic Berlin Wall fell on November 9, 1989

That's why I think God is not through with Iran ... No way is He going to let Iran send a nuclear tipped missile to Israel,
which by the way could be delivered by a piper cub if Iran had one, it's just that a nuclear tipped missile aimed at Israel is more provocative.

Fear is NK and Iran's biggest weapon for respect :yep:

ikalugin

01-10-20, 08:39 PM

Remember that time Russian forces shot down Malaysia Airlines, flight 17 on the 17th of July 2014 in the Ukraine ? Albeit, with denials from Russia.
Not in the region, but then the Ukrainian shot down of the Russian airliner in 2001 over the Black Sea wasn't either.

My point is that those incidents happen, particularly during tensions, but there is a media bias, which I have pointed out by mentioning the in region US case.

ikalugin

01-10-20, 08:48 PM

Actually, it was later de-classified that there was an RC-135 operating in that area (KAL007).

And there was a persistent US operation to test Soviet air defenses that was driving the air defense force nuts.
But we are not going to remember those nuances as USSR, Russia, Iran are bad and US is good, right?

Buddahaid

01-10-20, 08:58 PM

Every viewpoint is biased, or is that also a bias?

Sorry for the screwed up post. The following one is my point.

Buddahaid

01-10-20, 09:01 PM

All viewpoints are biased, some have better foundations than others, but isn't that another bias?

:hmmm:

Rockstar

01-10-20, 09:19 PM

And there was a persistent US operation to test Soviet air defenses that was driving the air defense force nuts.
But we are not going to remember those nuances as USSR, Russia, Iran are bad and US is good, right?

Yep. ;)

No excuse, everyone needs to know what the hell they're aiming at before they pull the trigger and kill people. At least the Chinese positively identified their target as a U.S. spy plane before they crashed into it.

Commander Wallace

01-10-20, 09:21 PM

Not in the region, but then the Ukrainian shot down of the Russian airliner in 2001 over the Black Sea wasn't either.

My point is that those incidents happen, particularly during tensions, but there is a media bias, which I have pointed out by mentioning the in region US case.

Actually, none of the events that you or I have mentioned have any relevance to the events in Iran, meaning the shoot down of the airliner other than the the other aircraft in the incidents mentioned were unarmed, civilian airliners as well.

While accidents are possible, only a coward would kill innocent civilians. Unfortunately, the Iranians disposed of whatever incriminating evidence existed. By their actions, I believe the court of world wide opinion will hold the Iranians culpable in this tragedy.

ET2SN

01-10-20, 10:05 PM

1983?

:hmm2:

If you want to dig into 1983 (and there's a lot to dig into), we should start a new thread.

:Kaleun_Cheers:

Rufus Shinra

01-11-20, 05:02 AM

Yep. ;)

No excuse, everyone needs to know what the hell they're aiming at before they pull the trigger and kill people. At least the Chinese positively identified their target as a U.S. spy plane before they crashed into it.
Amen to this, even if your gut says the radar contact is a F-14 getting ready for an attack run on your cruiser, you still double-check it before firing.

Skybird

01-11-20, 05:53 AM

In war, sh!t happens. Before now condemning the Iranians and Russians for their acts, lets not forget that the US should remember how it feels. On July 3rd 1988 the USS Vincennes misidentified Iranian flight 655 as an attacking F14 Tomcat at Bandar-Abas, and shot the Airbus A300 down with a SM2-MR missile. 290 dead.

Something similiar seems to have happened in Teheran. One had just struck the US bases. One had to expect possible US air retaliation. One was on high alert. Adrenaline and excitement and fear all around. Someobdy saw an American snake crawling in the grass - or so he thought -, and pulled his sword.

Sh!t happens in war. The longer one plays with fire, the more often one gets burned. Until one played one time too often. Then the whole house and street goes boom and ablaze.

ikalugin

01-11-20, 06:31 AM

I would point out that in many cases it is not entirely clear what the target is, even if there is an ability to visually observe the target but particularly when this ability is not there.

C4ISR systems and rules of engagement help, but while Iran could adopt the later those are situational as the threat of attack by massed cruise missiles or stealth aircraft precludes such careful ROEs and I am not aware of Iran obtaining advanced C4ISR systems to go with their SAMs (they are on the market though).

Jimbuna

01-11-20, 07:44 AM

Jimbuna

01-11-20, 09:23 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqEaRkkrvFE

Commander Wallace

01-11-20, 09:39 AM

Iran has admitted "unintentionally" shooting down a Ukrainian passenger jet, killing all 176 people on board.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621

No doubt the poor bugga of the lowest rank who pressed the launch button will be made the scapegoat and not those higher up the chain of command who are responsible for the weapons system and gave the order to fire.

:agree: I never expected Iran to admit to shooting down this aircraft. Then again, forensic science, being what it is, left Iran with little choice. This is a good reason why travel in the area or in the volatile and socially backwards country that is Iran, should be avoided.

Jimbuna

01-11-20, 09:44 AM

Thankfully when I was there in 1977 it was less so.

Mr Quatro

01-11-20, 02:05 PM

Iran is looking even more like a third wold country instead of a nation with wisdom in today's nuclear age :yep:

Aktungbby

01-11-20, 02:13 PM

Iran has admitted "unintentionally" shooting down a Ukrainian passenger jet, killing all 176 people on board.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621

No doubt the poor bugga of the lowest rank who pressed the launch button will be made the scapegoat and not those higher up the chain of command who are responsible for the weapons system and gave the order to fire.well, I expect the '"poor bugga's" wife, and the battery commander's to recieve a pipe bomb if precedent is any guarantee; as they did to the USS Vincennes captain's wife...in San Diego!! followed by an apology to the still-living captain after years of harrassment! All things being akbar-equal to the god of war...theoretically:arrgh!:and I wonder what the Iranian commemorative postage stamp will look like to honor all those dead Canadian-Iranians??

mapuc

01-11-20, 07:08 PM

And I can't understand why they didn't close the Iranian airspace

From xx.xx hour and until further notice the Iranian airspace is closed for civilian aircraft.

Markus

Skybird

01-11-20, 07:13 PM

And I can't understand why they didn't close the Iranian airspace

From xx.xx hour and until further notice the Iranian airspace is closed for civilian aircraft.

Markus
Actually, it seems some high ranking air defence commander demanded right that. And was overturned by a higher instancene in the political-military command chain. I read this somewhere over the day, but for the sake of heaven cant remember the source anymore, whether it was an English or German newspaper.

Jimbuna

01-12-20, 07:40 AM

Iran plane crash: Protesters condemn 'lies' on downed jet.

Hundreds of protesters have taken to the streets in Iran's capital, Tehran, to vent anger at officials, calling them liars for having denied shooting down a Ukrainian passenger plane.

Protests took place outside at least two universities, with tear gas reportedly fired.

US President Donald Trump tweeted support for the "inspiring" protests.

The students called for those responsible for the downing the plane, and those they said had covered up the action, to be prosecuted.

Chants included "commander-in-chief resign", referring to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, and "death to liars".

One wrote on Twitter: "I will never forgive the authorities in my country, the people who were on the scene and lying."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51079965

The POTUS and Secretary of State Pompeo just have to get involved.

The government of Iran must allow human rights groups to monitor and report facts from the ground on the ongoing protests by the Iranian people. There can not be another massacre of peaceful protesters, nor an internet shutdown. The world is watching.

"The voice of the Iranian people is clear. They are fed up with the regime's lies, corruption, ineptitude, and brutality of the IRGC [Revolutionary Guards] under Khamenei's kleptocracy. We stand with the Iranian people who deserve a better future."

Moonlight

01-12-20, 10:44 AM

That's not how the Iranian camel shaggers and sheep molesters see it.

"UK Envoy Arrested after Provoking Anti-Iran Gathering"
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/01/12/2180293/uk-envoy-arrested-after-provoking-anti-iran-gathering-source

Mr Quatro

01-12-20, 11:01 AM

Double jeopardy ... Not only did Iran lie about the shooting down of a civilian airliner they knew immediately that they had done something wrong and then they lied about it.

The Iranians are not happy with their leaders and it could become a serious issue in the near future :yep:

"What else are they lying about"?

Catfish

01-12-20, 11:22 AM

Some sources now suppose the Iranians indeed did not shoot 'personally' so to speak.
Instead the russian 9K330 Tor (Nato calls it "SA-15 Gauntlet") decided autonomously that the jet was a threat, and fired.
No human action involved apart from setting up this array.

"If the assumption is correct and an SA-15 Gauntlet was used, then we are dealing with the case of an autonomous weapon system that made its decision within seconds. As it says in Wikipedia: "Approaching targets can be automatically classified according to risk potential and combated without operator intervention."
Any stationed SA-15 system must have rated the departure as an approach. The official explanation of a "defect in the communication system" doesn't sound particularly reassuring. SA-15 systems are also used in Europe, in Greece and Turkey."

Speculation yet, of course.

ikalugin

01-12-20, 12:00 PM

Modern C4ISR systems help with those sorts of thing a lot.
Otherwise there is not linkage between civilian air trafic control and
the SAM units.

Skybird

01-12-20, 12:22 PM

"This is Skynet. I have decided to erase mankind due to a technical malfunction in my AI routines. Please get ready for deletion by accident. I apologize in advance for any inconvenience I am about to impose on you. Thank you."

Joys of autonomous weapon platforms. In principle I am against them. But they will and are being build anyway, military logic demands them, drones lead towards them necessarily. Maybe we should simply shoot those building them, planning them, and deciding for them. Maybe that really would be a clever idea.

Catfish

01-12-20, 12:28 PM

Modern C4ISR systems help with those sorts of thing a lot. Otherwise there is not linkage between civilian air trafic control and
the SAM units.
That is exactly the problem. At first some iranian military said human civilian and military control were sitting side by side in the tower, so there could be no accidental firing by them.
Could it be there was lacking control on the autonomous 9K330 Tor unit?

OT just read about an autonomous vaccuum cleaner robot. The inventor wanted to make it faster, so he shifted the priorities in the fuzzy logic 'brain' of the device. The outcome was that the robot now rammed chairs and tables backwards, at full speed.
The reason was that the cleaner was much faster going backwards, so it 'decided' (followed orders) to use that gear for more speed. Unfortunately it had no backward sensors.
But from nuclear plants to weapons systems, all is failsafe. Especially when automated. Say the creators.

Aktungbby

01-12-20, 12:56 PM

"If the assumption is correct and an SA-15 Gauntlet was used, then we are dealing with the case of an autonomous weapon system that made its decision within seconds. As it says in Wikipedia: "Approaching targets can be automatically classified according to risk potential and combated without operator intervention."
Any stationed SA-15 system must have rated the departure as an approach. The official explanation of a "defect in the communication system" doesn't sound particularly reassuring. SA-15 systems are also used in Europe, in Greece and Turkey."

Speculation yet, of course.

Could it be there was lacking control on the autonomous 9K330 Tor unit?

But from nuclear plants to weapons systems, all is failsafe. Especially when automated. Say the creators. one wonders who was at the decision controls in a Ranzhir M-1 command unithttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/MAKS_Airshow_2013_%28Ramenskoye_Airport%2C_Russia% 29_%28521-41%29.jpg/220px-MAKS_Airshow_2013_%28Ramenskoye_Airport%2C_Russia% 29_%28521-41%29.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MAKS_Airshow_2013_(Ramenskoye_Airport,_Russia )_(521-41).jpg) that accompanies the tor gauntlet SA- vehiclehttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Sa-15a.jpg/220px-Sa-15a.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa-15a.jpg) Iran's top leader has started the investigation into who's guilty....it's tough to blame the 'bullying americans when a distinctive tor missile nosecone is found in the wreckagehttps://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/ENxkCymUUAAPtXB.jpg (https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/ENxkCymUUAAPtXB.jpg)as they say in raghedese "the jig is up AkbarBBY"
:k_confused:

Mr Quatro

01-12-20, 01:44 PM

Where do you get those pictures Aktungbby?

Are you CIA? :D

Thank you anyways for the time and trouble you go through to post them :yep:

Aktungbby

01-12-20, 03:45 PM

Where do you get those pictures Aktungbby?

Are you CIA? :D

:yep:
WELL I COULD TELL YOU; BUT THEN....
:|\\ :shifty::/\\chop:rotfl2::oops: :dead:

moose1am

01-12-20, 06:06 PM

Me? Yeah, that's the takeaway, after you filter through the rhetoric.

Jeff used the analogy of Trump holding a gun at their head. But he had that gun at their head before the missile strike.

Still backing down.

I don't mind, but it is what it is. They fired ballistic missiles from Iran specifically targeting US troops. We do nothing in return but give a confused speech.

Ok.

Trump talks big but he pulls back when he should have attacked. He likes to try to bluff Iran. They called his bluff and he folded for now.

August

01-12-20, 06:11 PM

Trump talks big but he pulls back when he should have attacked. He likes to try to bluff Iran. They called his bluff and he folded for now.

Interesting take. What exactly was Trump supposed to attack the Iranians for? Not injuring our personnel or damaging our equipment?

ikalugin

01-12-20, 06:23 PM

In terms of C4ISR the issue is in the quality of control. Without modern systems the speed (ie if you use command post with big boards and voice over telephone links to your units), clarity, etc of situational picture being distributed (in modern systems this is distributed in an automatic mode as a set of tracks with their metadata), that of the orders (such as bans on engagement of certain tracks - such as civilian planes) is not what people who play computer games with their perfect information would assume.

Even with those systems in confusion of battle Soviets expected significant friendly fire casualties. In historic operations those systems were complimented with strict ROEs and other such organisational measures but this may not be possible for Iran, if they are expected having to deal with an overwhelming attack by cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and the like.

As to Tor - while there are significantly autonomous modes of operation (which help to deal with operator work load during saturation attacks) they are optional and there are hard control features such as launch keys (without the keys being in unlocked positions the system cannot fire because the circuits are physically disconnected).

moose1am

01-12-20, 06:41 PM

Interesting take. What exactly was Trump supposed to attack the Iranians for? Not injuring our personnel or damaging our equipment?

The 22 ballistic missiles did not miss. 25% of the larger airbase is occupied by US men and women. The missiles hit that 25% and destroyed the living quarters where the US men sleep. If not for advanced warning the American dead could have been excessive. American Equipment worth a lot of money was destroyed in that attack. And there were craters in the runway at that airforce base in Iraq. So it's false that Iran missed on purpose. No, they hit what they were aiming at with great accuracy. Iran showed Trump that they can hit anything within 600 miles or more if they want to. That gave Trump a great pause. Sure we could attack Iran and wipe out a lot of Iran but they will fire many more ballistic missiles at our US assets and destroy a lot of equipment and kill a lot of Americans. The American public would not stand still for American losses. So Trump decided to pull in his horns as Trump is not a warrior. Trump avoided the war in Vietnam by having his doctor claim that he had bone spurs. Now I call him Cadet Bone Spurs. Trump likes to talk a big game and Iran just called his bluff. Trump made America look week IMHO. I was hoping that Trump would at least take out some of Iran's Ballistic Missile launch sites even though they are mobile. I read that our satellites saw Iran moving their missiles before they fired them at our airbase in Iraq. We should have taken those missile sites out when we saw Iran fueling them up for the attack. They don't fuel up liquid-fueled Ballistic missiles unless they intend to fire them at something.

So today Sunday more Rockets and mortars landed on another airbase in Iraq. What will Trump do now to discourage the Iranian from causing more trouble?

Onkel Neal

01-12-20, 06:49 PM

Interesting take. What exactly was Trump supposed to attack the Iranians for? Not injuring our personnel or damaging our equipment?

For daring to launch weapons of war in our direction. Period.

Not to mention, I have not forgotten this
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/us-soldiers-in-iran.jpg

ikalugin

01-12-20, 07:12 PM

For daring to launch weapons of war in our direction. Period.

You mean the ones they launched in response to US killing one of their key leaders in route to a diplomatic meeting that you have helped to arranged?
(I may be misremembering the details though)

If anything I think that the nature of the Iranian response was very fortunate - it was a demonstration of will and capability without going overboard and actually killing a lot of US servicemen, particularly considering the conditions Iranian leadership is currently under (regime change, mounting US lead pressure over false causes).

Buddahaid

01-12-20, 07:16 PM

I think the Iranians were hoping to goad the US into a response so they could play the victim card again but it backfired

Reece

01-12-20, 07:19 PM

Nuke em!! :yep:

August

01-12-20, 07:45 PM

For daring to launch weapons of war in our direction. Period.

Not to mention, I have not forgotten this
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/us-soldiers-in-iran.jpg

Well he just offed an Iranian general and barely missed getting another one. That's not good enough? Personally i've favored turning Iran into a glass floored self lighting parking lot ever since '79 so if you think we ought to light them up some more i'm down with it.

Aktungbby

01-12-20, 11:15 PM

Personally i've favored turning Iran into a glass floored self lighting parking lot ever since '79 so if you think we ought to light them up some more i'm down with it.We'll call it Allahmetite-it'll be a collectable like Trinitite!:yeah:

Mr Quatro

01-12-20, 11:40 PM

I think the Iranians were hoping to goad the US into a response so they could play the victim card again but it backfired

Makes sense :up:

Onkel Neal

01-13-20, 10:50 AM

Well he just offed an Iranian general and barely missed getting another one. That's not good enough? Personally i've favored turning Iran into a glass floored self lighting parking lot ever since '79 so if you think we ought to light them up some more i'm down with it.

Lol, 10-4 :) I favor pinpont strikes on key infrastructure, like they did to the Saudis a while back, but ongoing until they cannot take it. As few civilian casualties as possible, lots of powerplants, mullahs, and oil sites.

I think the Iranians were hoping to goad the US into a response so they could play the victim card again but it backfired

That's probably the smart reason not to hit back.

Democratic congressional leaders and presidential candidates who were unsparing in their criticism of President Trump for the escalation with Iran over the past two weeks largely have gone silent now that the protests on the streets of Tehran and beyond have turned their rage toward the regime — and not the Trump White House.

Even as videos emerged online Monday that purportedly show Iranian police and security forces firing live ammunition to disperse protesters, so far among the 2020 Democratic candidates only former Vice President Joe Biden and Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., have spoken out in support of the people.

The protesters have railed against the government following the shoot-down of a passenger plane that the Iranian government initially denied involvement in — Tehran later admitted they downed the jet in a misfire during attacks against U.S. bases in Iraq, following Trump's takedown of top Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani.

Cross your fingers, we could see the overthrow of the regime.

ikalugin

01-13-20, 11:01 AM

Lol, 10-4 :) I favor pinpont strikes on key infrastructure, like they did to the Saudis a while back, but ongoing until they cannot take it. As few civilian casualties as possible, lots of powerplants, mullahs, and oil sites.

That's probably the smart reason not to hit back.

Cross your fingers, we could see the overthrow of the regime.

Ahh the good old talk about regime change and wars of agression.

Jimbuna

01-13-20, 12:11 PM

Tchocky

01-13-20, 12:13 PM

That's not how the Iranian camel shaggers and sheep molesters see it.

Oh FFS can it would you?

Tchocky

01-13-20, 12:15 PM

Personally i've favored turning Iran into a glass floored self lighting parking lot ever since '79 so if you think we ought to light them up some more i'm down with it.

Then maybe sit this one out if you're in favour of nuclear murder.

Like, stop it.

Mr Quatro

01-13-20, 12:45 PM

Then maybe sit this one out if you're in favour of nuclear murder.

Like, stop it.

Why? Why stop it? When Iran wants to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth ... Iran will never give up their desire to have a nuclear weapon.

They already have a delivery system in place

Sooner or later they will have to be taken out hopefully by bunker busting bombs and swarms of drones followed by F-35's instead of nuclear fall out that would hurt the population.

Wait a minute I haven't had my coffee yet ... :oops:

Catfish

01-13-20, 02:02 PM

[...] Cross your fingers, we could see the overthrow of the regime.
Alright if done by the own population.. just a hint:
The second the Donald publicy criticizes Iran or its government the overthrow will be over. Do. Not. Interfere.
The iranian people once did it with the Shah, they can do it again.

Moonlight

01-13-20, 05:42 PM

Cross your fingers, we could see the overthrow of the regime.

Wow, a couple of hundred demonstrators is going to cause a regime change?, not a snowball in hells chance, you'd need millions of demonstrators and, even then my money would be on the rulers of Iran. :yep:

Aktungbby

01-13-20, 06:47 PM

On lesser note, America threatens to cut off Iraq's access to its Federal Reserve deposits if its demand our troops leave is enforced... "money is the sinews of war" meets "that. 'quid' ain't pro quo"?:timeout: The prospect of sanctions is still fresh from the UN embargo of the 1990's; and access was suspended in 2015 when cash was flowing to ISIS thru Iraq's loosly regulated banks, so the threat is real to Iraqui finance ministers:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:. (WSJ: @ mr quatro:I read article while having my coffee; rule 1 at:subsim: never post w/o a cuppajoe at hand!:arrgh!:)

Jimbuna

01-14-20, 09:24 AM

Several people have been detained in Iran over the accidental shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger plane with a missile, the country's judiciary says.

Spokesman Gholamhossein Esmaili said investigations into the incident were continuing, but provided no details.

President Hassan Rouhani said the probe would be overseen by a "special court".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51104687

A token gesture or a real attempt at appeasement?

Mr Quatro

01-14-20, 11:40 AM

Several people have been detained in Iran over the accidental shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger plane with a missile, the country's judiciary says.

Spokesman Gholamhossein Esmaili said investigations into the incident were continuing, but provided no details.

President Hassan Rouhani said the probe would be overseen by a "special court".

A token gesture or a real attempt at appeasement?

Suspected CIA agents that infiltrated the Iranian air defence squad :haha:

Aktungbby

01-14-20, 11:59 AM

A token gesture or a real attempt at appeasement?
Iran's top leader has started the investigation into who's guilty....it's tough to blame the 'bullying americans when a distinctive tor missile nosecone is found in the wreckageas they say in raghedese "the jig is up AkbarBBY"
In a televised speech, President Rouhani said the judiciary would assemble a special court with a high-ranking judge and tens of experts to oversee the probe.
"This will not be a regular and usual case. The whole world will be watching this court," he added.
Mr Rouhani also stressed that Wednesday's "tragic event" should not be blamed on one individual.
"It's not only the person who pulled the trigger, but also others who are responsible," he said. I BELIEVE IT'S LEGIT AND WILL PROBABLY GO LIKE THE SAUDI TRIAL FOR THE KOSHAGGI MURDER...LONG, DRAGGED OUT, POLITICAL, AND THERE WILL BE EXPENDIBLE SCAPEGOATS.

mapuc

01-14-20, 06:51 PM

Some thoughts based on other countries action.

Somewhere in the 80's, in the middle or in the end Swedish tv showed a documentary about Argentina before, during and after the Falkland war.

It's problems in the society and so on before they invaded Malvinas.

In this program, the host(English speaking) said the end of the Juntas was the mistake they did by invading Falkland island.

So my thoughts are-by this terrible thing that happened last week, will this mean the end of this Iranian regime ?

Markus

Skybird

01-14-20, 08:24 PM

^ Most likely: No.

You can comoare the Revolutinary Guards to the SS in Nazi germany. Its a state vwithin the state, corrupt officers control precious, profitable key parts of the economy for their own profit, their troops are unscruplolous, and well-armed.

Then there is the Basij militia, paramilitary, but quickly and easily to mobilize and beign called to the street. They receive orders from the RG, and were founded by Khomenei himself. They are kind of auxiliaries, and this also outside of Iraq, engaging in extraterritorial activity, from terrorism to police duties, sentry duty to mercenary fighting in other coutnries, inclduing Syria, Libya and Lebanon. Oversees, many of their acitvites were criminal terrorist, and gave them a bad reptuation sot hat they cnanot escape to other places if they loose their base in Iran. For this reason, they will fight to their death if the regime is beign atacked. They have no other choice. They are armed.

The regular army - shows no sign of becoming disloyal to the regime. Obviously, it is armed.

Dissatisfaciton may be widesprea din civil society, but then still many are wantign conservative Islam, and most of all: Iranians are very extremely patriotic. Here lies a big trap that the West repeaterlx already stepped into: to completely wron.-estimate how the public would react to poressure form outside. The visible face of the dissatisfied poublic, are the younger generaiton goping to the streets, like already back in the nineties when there was the first youth uprise (which I witnessed on location). They are not armed.

If the street tries to topple the regime, the regime will, if needed, prject that ammount of brutlaity and lethal poower it sees as needed to survive. Its not the first uprise they cracked down on.

If give it 1:3 by chances that there will be successful regime change and an end to the tyranny of the mullahs. Its not impossiblel but imo not likely ion the coming months and few years. I am not even certain that I will live long enopugh to see it happening: could be, but probbaly it will not happen. Maybe they will reshuffle the names on the boards. But lets not be mistaken: amongst those mullahs for whom the seats at the head of the table are in reach, there are no and there never were moderates. That has always just been a misperception, a misunderstanding, a wishful thought of the West. None of their past leaders, religious or political, was truly a moderate. None. Not one. They only varied in their level of raffinesse by which they hid it and manipulated the Western diplomats, these fools. The whole design of the political structure of Iran's constitutional order prevents that, by wanted design. Iran was designed not to allow "moderate Islam". They track modern Iran back to Khomenei. And Khomenei was much, but certainly no "moderate". In fact he was bitterly, unforgivingly determined.

Skybird

01-15-20, 06:48 AM

On a sidenote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51103686
In Iran, violations like this are a very serious issue.

That certain Western feminists defend the hijab as an expression of female's free choice and freedom, will forver be beyond me and illustrates another reason why I see them as intellectually very retarded.

This women may have not thought about it before, but then she showed a certain stubborness and anger that I ike. Courage like this deserves our support. Too many women flee from arab and Islamic countries and think they win safety when being here in the west, and in stead are beign let down and even see us bowing to Islamci rules and laws before our own Western courts, calling that respect for foreign culture and "human rights". Makes me want to vomit in these peoples faces. Saying this as somebody who has helped and supported apostates in the past.

Moonlight

01-16-20, 11:27 AM

I'm sure someone as high profile as Shohreh Bayat will be given sanctuary in another country pretty damn quick. :yep:

Threats, that's what these Iranian leaders prefer to do, how can you ever negotiate with such a backwards thinking leadership. :o
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10748635/chopped-into-pieces-iran/

Jimbuna

01-17-20, 07:52 AM

Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has said European nations including the UK "cannot be trusted" but Tehran is not against negotiating with anyone - except the US.

Giving his first sermon in eight years in Tehran, the top cleric branded Donald Trump a "clown" who only pretended to support the Iranian people and would "push a poisonous dagger" into their back.

Mr Khamenei also hailed missile strikes against US targets in retaliation for the assassination of Iran's top military commander as a "slap on the face" to the superpower.

https://news.sky.com/story/iran-willing-to-negotiate-with-anyone-except-us-says-supreme-leader-11910532

Skybird

01-17-20, 10:13 AM

What he said, is not so relevant.

THAT he held a sermon in the wake of recent protests after the airliner wrecking is the relevant news here. And its a declaration of war against the protesters: "See, here I am, and I will not go away."

The regime has no intention to give in. And why should it, btw? Because of - protests...?

Armistead

01-17-20, 02:54 PM

mapuc

01-17-20, 06:11 PM

In our prime time news on Danish TV, some expert on Middle east said, Iran is not interested in a conflict with USA.

When he said this I was thinking...most likely they are not.
They will lose what they have and dictators have some kind of love to their throne.

Markus

Jimbuna

01-18-20, 07:03 AM

Aktungbby

01-18-20, 01:28 PM

As long as they simply call each other names abd trade insults I'm relatively fine with that.

I doubt Iran will want to provoke the POTUS further in military terms because they are well aware how unpredictable he can be....and painfully aware they are 'the gang that can't shoot straight' anyway without killing the kids:O::oops: or as the Ru$$ian arm$ merchant$ of the Tor love to $ay: "Mullah-Mullah BBY"!

Mr Quatro

01-18-20, 02:52 PM

I think Iran is up to no good ... they want to get even some how :o

Aktungbby

01-18-20, 03:15 PM

... they want to get even some how :o
VENGEANCE IS MINE SAYETH THE LORD (Deuteronomy 32:35; Romans 12: 19.:yep: ).....I WONDER IF ALLAH SAID THE SAME :O:??!!:hmmm:
Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV) 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Mr Quatro

01-18-20, 03:23 PM

VENGEANCE IS MINE SAYETH THE LORD (Deuteronomy 32:35; Romans 12: 19.:yep: ).....I WONDER IF ALLAH SAID THE SAME :O:??!!:hmmm:
Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV) 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

I think so ... they still believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth too, because they still think that the God of Abraham is their God. In fact they believe in the Torah and the OT up to Isaiah.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Muslim+faith+started&scope=web&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=&sc=0-0&qs=n&sk=&cvid=F8DAA8A0112A45A9927E7B62C286F5EE

The history of Islam concerns the political, social, economic and developments of Islamicate civilization. Most historians believe that Islam originated in Mecca and Medina at the start of the 7th century CE, approximately 600 years after the founding of Christianity. Muslims, however, believe that it did not start with Muhammad, but that it was the original faith of others whom they regard as prophets, such as Jesus, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah and Adam.

Rockstar

01-19-20, 07:41 AM

I think so ... they still believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth too, because they still think that the God of Abraham is their God. In fact they believe in the Torah and the OT up to Isaiah.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Muslim+faith+started&scope=web&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=&sc=0-0&qs=n&sk=&cvid=F8DAA8A0112A45A9927E7B62C286F5EE

Whats wrong with "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth"? If a worker loses an eye on the job and its found that its the fault of the tool maker. It doesnt mean you take the tool makers eye out. What if the tool maker already is missing one and you went and took his remaining eye. You could still see and he would now be blind. Jeebus Mr. Quatro, Think for a moment. Its a phrase whic calls for just compensation.

Which to me sounds more reasonable than believing that a human sacrifice can somehow forgive the tool maker. Leaving some poor slob homeless and broke because nobody will hire a one eyed factory worker.

Aktungbby

01-19-20, 02:55 PM

Whats wrong with "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth"? If a worker loses an eye on the job and its found that its the fault of the tool maker. It doesnt mean you take the tool makers eye out. What if the tool maker already is missing one and you went and took his remaining eye. You could still see and he would now be blind. Jeebus Mr. Quatro, Think for a moment. Its a phrase whic calls for just compensation.

Which to me sounds more reasonable than believing that a human sacrifice can somehow forgive the tool maker. Leaving some poor slob homeless and broke because nobody will hire a one eyed factory worker. WELL THERE ALWAYS A CHARITABLE QUISA!:D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas)

Skybird

01-22-20, 07:28 PM

https://www.memri.org/tv/ayatollah-alamolhoda-english-ambassador-chopped-pieces-killed-thousands-american-soldiers-retaliation

Nice video. So... moderate...

Catfish

01-23-20, 02:57 AM

https://www.memri.org/tv/ayatollah-alamolhoda-english-ambassador-chopped-pieces-killed-thousands-american-soldiers-retaliation
Nice video. So... moderate...
So did you actually understand what was said in the video? :hmmm:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/

Please, that is as if people believed the "Express" or the "Sun". :haha:

Skybird

01-23-20, 07:06 AM

The man has a long record of vitriolic speeches like that, and that gives the added video translation its credibility. He would not be himself if he would have said something friendlier.

Jimbuna

01-23-20, 07:27 AM

https://www.memri.org/tv/ayatollah-alamolhoda-english-ambassador-chopped-pieces-killed-thousands-american-soldiers-retaliation

Nice video. So... moderate...

Sounds like a right charmer.

Skybird

01-23-20, 08:12 AM

You can see him as the conscience of Aayatollah Chamenei - he says what Chamenei means to say but usually still is too reluctant to put that frankly in words, not to wake up the Europeans too early. Same message - but more clearly delivered.

Aktungbby

01-23-20, 11:26 AM

Sounds like a right charmer.

"
Some people say that the ambassador of England should be deported. Deporting the ambassador of England would be the most polite thing to do. It would be a huge concession by our public. No way! The ambassador of England should be chopped into pieces.
"England should be grateful to our dear police and security forces. They saved him that night. Had this impure one fallen into the hands of the followers of Qasem Soleimani's line – the people on whose foreheads was written 'We Are Qasem Soleimani' – the ear would have been the largest piece left of this body. He is a fifth column working for our enemy. He came [to the demonstrations] to lead the English and American spies."
SO MUCH FOR 'DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY': IRANIAN STYLE-NUTHIN'S GONE OUTTA STYLE SINCE THE U.S. EMBASSY HOSTAGE TAKEOVER....AND THAT ISN'T SOUNDING VERY QUISA-LIKE TO ME: https://nypost.com/2020/01/21/iranian-lawmaker-offers-3-million-reward-to-whoever-kills-trump/ (https://nypost.com/2020/01/21/iranian-lawmaker-offers-3-million-reward-to-whoever-kills-trump/) ERRR... EYE FOR EYE; TRUMP FOR TRUMP??:arrgh!: