Midway - the Battle that never is?

[Red Devil]

Found myself on June 3 1942 at Midway, so waited. Got message telling me attacks undergoing at Midway - erm, no there isn't. All carriers were not in port, there are 2 in port right now.

Off a history site I got the lat and long of the 4 x Jap carrier fleet, went there - nothing. Got coords for Soryu carrier, damaged by bombing - nope not there.

When I first started using this sim back in the day (2007), I found the four carriers and sank three, never seen them since, or any signs of anything untoward at Midway. :ping:

[propbeanie]

which mod(s) if any are you using? TMO with lurker_hlb3's RSRDC on top usually did pretty good with it, but if you edited his files at all in the ME, it will ruin the "timing" of everything. I do not recall though if he has the actual attack on Midway Atoll itself in the battle, but he does have both the Midway carriers, as well as the Dutch Harbor carriers represented, though with substituted CV vessels. Since he has the groups spawn over by their "historical" starting positions, you don't have to worry so much about being within their spawning range if you're by Midway itself. Even the stock game has a representation of the battle, though it looks like someone was in a rush to get the game out the door, and groups show up anywhere from January 3rd through June 6th, 1942... :hmmm: :salute:

[Red Devil]

no games mods, just torps and map

[jimmbbo]

I had been wondering the same thing, and after several tries, was able to locate screening DDs and CAs of either Kondo's invasion force or Yamamoto's Main force WNW west of Midway.... Had to leave the game to do some traveling, but was pleased to have found the fleet... Could make a semi-career of schlepping around Midway looking for the other fleets. Stock v 1.5 CD version
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Barkerov]

I found it once, playing RFB with the RSRD campaign mod. It was very entertaining. For example, before I came into range of the carriers (or more precisely they came into my range cos they're travelling at 30+ knots) I spotted a large number of aircraft approaching. I assumed this was one of the strike packages which made sense to me. However, they also spotted me and every single one of them decided to bomb my boat instead of their real target.
It was ridiculous.



Then when I finally got the chance to fire at one of the carriers, my perfect spread ran out of fuel some 50 yards short of the hull :wah:


I immediately deleted that particular save.

[Red Devil]

I was approaching Pearl on one occasion. suddenly we got damaged by an attacking US plane.

[Barkerov]

This is why after I spot a plane I immediately start using my own dive planes.

[Red Devil]

This is why after I spot a plane I immediately start using my own dive planes. no disrespect to our brethren here but the USA is very good with blue on blue.

[Webster]

no games mods, just torps and map

i suggest you start by using my GFO mod

it tries to fix as many of the issues and bugs still in the game but not alter the difficulty or game play in any way unless its to fix something unrealistic

that will cure many stock bugs the game has and dramatically improve the game for you but its most likely not going to fix issues you find with the campaign files like you described

[Red Devil]

cheers

edit: well midway came and went, nothing, not a sign of jap ships, two US fleets shown on map, and one solitary jap plane about 800mn nw of Midway.

[propbeanie]

There are several ways to look at this... Look in the Mission Editor and load the BattleOfMidway.mis file in the Data / Campaigns / Campaign folder, and you'll see that three of the five IJN groups are configured to start on 1942-01-01, with the scenario dated 1942-06-04. Most of the other groups start on 1942-06-04. Some might have the "EvolveFromEntryDate" status set to "true", but most are "false"... Now, use the playback feature in the upper-right of the screen, and set it to begin playing the scenario at 1942-06-01... At 0600 hours on 1942-06-04, this is what you'll get:

https://i.imgur.com/OdGHTnN.jpg
Battle of Midway in the Mission Editor, 0600 19420601

Looks about correct! However, the ME player started on 1942-06-01... so what happens if you started it on say 1942-01-01, like some of the groups in the mission file do? Why, those groups would start moving on whatever particular day you start the career on, if it's after 1942-01-01. If you start on December 7th, 1941, then the groups configured to run on 1941-01-01 start moving on that date. The others start on 1942-06-01. What about doing the Single (Quick) Missions version? The Singe (Quick) Missions version does NOT use the Battle of Midway.mis file in the Campaign folder - it uses its own in the Single Mission folder... That's right, the devs didn't trust their own Campaign file to run correctly... ahem (it'd be difficult to anyway)... anyway, if you're in the campaign, it will not function correctly in Stock nor most mods. What happens is that most of the groups are either long-gone, or are yet to arrive...

Besides that, even if you manage to have it "time" correctly, look at the mileage, or distance between things there. Midway is the middle little light blue smear of the three toward the bottom of the picture. Look at the kilometer scale to the left. The IJN carrier group there then is roughly 450km (or roughly 250 nautical miles) northwest of Midway. The two US carrier groups are roughly 900-100km (or about 5-600 nautical miles) north of Midway. There is about that same 450km between the IJN and the US groups. That is a LOT of ocean for a submarine to find something in, even if you have relatively accurate "intel"... :salute:

[Red Devil]

the intel I had was from true history. Prop your map makes no mention of the fleet approaching from the south west Or Kamatsu's ships to the south. On this map I was almost exactly in position ahead of the First Carrier Fleet (Nagumo) and all airborne craft should have past over or nearby.

[Mios 4Me]

What about doing the Single (Quick) Missions version? The Singe (Quick) Missions version does NOT use the Battle of Midway.mis file in the Campaign folder - it uses its own in the Single Mission folder... That's right, the devs didn't trust their own Campaign file to run correctly...
Too funny. I'd picked up the three coordinates of the Battle off Samar from Single Missions but attacking under cover of air support never worked as the timing never matched up. Now I know why.


I found it once, playing RFB with the RSRD campaign mod. It was very entertaining. For example, before I came into range of the carriers (or more precisely they came into my range cos they're travelling at 30+ knots) I spotted a large number of aircraft approaching. I assumed this was one of the strike packages which made sense to me. However, they also spotted me and every single one of them decided to bomb my boat instead of their real targets.

That is truly hilarious. Just think: if you'd been off northern Oahu one sleepy Sunday morning, we might never have had a WWII.

[propbeanie]

the intel I had was from true history. Prop your map makes no mention of the fleet approaching from the south west Or Kamatsu's ships to the south. On this map I was almost exactly in position ahead of the First Carrier Fleet (Nagumo) and all airborne craft should have past over or nearby.
"True history" is disregarded by the game, hence you've got "bad intel"... just joshin' :har:

But seriously, the other groups are in the mission, I just zoomed in close enough to show you that the mission file in the campaign, at first blush, looks reasonable. However, as you mention, those other groups are out further, some quite a bit further, and won't show on that map zoom level for a good while longer yet. Of which, if you are in career mode, they would have already run and been gone. The file works OK in the ME player, but not in career mode. Also, the carriers in the game do not "launch" planes for land targets. Only for "enemy targets", which would be ships and subs - only. No dogfights either. The airplanes usually have to be included as groups, if you want them to show. For an example of that, look at the SingleMission file for the Battle of Midway. They put airplanes in it. :salute:

[Red Devil]

Roger that Prop. Due to a bug in a save, I started again and soon came back to Midway this time closer to the 4th June 42, "alert midway under attack' - erm no it isn't. That's where I am. I was parked just to the NW of Midway, ships and land in sight - nothing. So I gave up and went towards Tokyo, still no sign of anything. Got off Japan, spotted a convoy and took out 5 ships before coming back to Midway. Still on suspected IJN route, still nothing, still no planes, nowt!

[Red Devil]

June 27 1942. Drum en route to Japan passing SW near Midway. Jap plane appears, then another then another, shoot two down, but planes flying from most compass directions. Broken periscope and guns, had to return to Pearl. I think they got their dates wrong!

[skirich]

I was on a mission when the event happened, so I restarted from an earlier save, and went in search mode around midway around that date.


I got the transmission that the event started, but I never found it event though I was in surface/flank speed troling around the area.


Does a battle actually happen or is this an AI thing that I just cant join in on?

[Red Devil]

only once, long ago, did I find the 4 carrier fleet to the NW of Midway, since then nothing, at the same time a jap fleet was reported s of midway. Since then nothing. Like all shipping movements, I think they are randomly selected and 'thrown into the pot'

[skirich]

In case you are still looking for it ...
If you have RSRDC loaded ...

You need to start a patrol after may 1st 1942, then the BattleOfMidway.mis file will come into play.
The battle will happen sometime between May 1st and Jun 29. So not historically accurate. The IJN task forces leave on May 1st I assume steam towards the site.


Coordinates for the main Japanese CV group will end up at or near ...
Long 179.51
Lat 30.88

Lots of other targets around as well if you are close by.
But you pretty much need to spend a month in the water near midway on Max TC doing nothing to get into it.

[propbeanie]

If your Midway files from RSRDC are not "spawning" almost exactly on-time, then you'll need to look in the original files with a text editor, and copy the lines exactly as lurker had them over into your edited files. If you used the Mission Editor at all on lurker's files, the ME will add lines back into them, and change some of the settings for the DelayTime and a few other oddities that I don't understand why Ubi did that... It can be very frustrating to have to use the ME for your graphical view of the world, and then come back in with a text editor to "fix" what the ME did to your files... :salute:

[skirich]

If your Midway files from RSRDC are not "spawning" almost exactly on-time, then you'll need to look in the original files with a text editor, and copy the lines exactly as lurker had them over into your edited files. If you used the Mission Editor at all on lurker's files, the ME will add lines back into them, and change some of the settings for the DelayTime and a few other oddities that I don't understand why Ubi did that... It can be very frustrating to have to use the ME for your graphical view of the world, and then come back in with a text editor to "fix" what the ME did to your files... :salute:


Yep I saw that warning in in the mod readme. I only open the mission in ME to see the waypoints drawn out. I never saved them so the ME never changed anything.

However the range for spawn is quite wide showing may 1 to june 30. So I assume the time to steam to site is the variable.

[Section 83]
FileName=data/Campaigns/Campaign/BattleOfMidway.mis
StartDate=19420501
EndDate=19420630
GameModes=SingleMission,SinglePatrol,Career
InclusionProbability=100
MinimumDifficultyRating=0
MinimumPlayerRating=-3
EntryFocalPointLong=0
EntryFocalPointLat=0
MaximumDistanceFromStartPoint=90000
ExclusiveLayer=No
ExclusiveLayerID=0

[propbeanie]

That's the Campaign.cfg entry for the Mission to be loaded, so it will load the file between those dates. The individual groups should "spawn" as scheduled in the mis file itself as called, and / or update if after the date of occurrence, if the group is still "active", which - if I'm remembering correctly, will be finished by the 15th... maybe. Just a pinch of "overhead", in case one of them encounters your boat, I suppose... :salute:

[skirich]

Ah yes indeed, here is the code from the mis file ...
Which doesnt show in the ME when opened.


GameEntryDate=19420528
GameEntryTime=28
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
MaxInst=1
MaxUnitsCreated=100
DockedShip=false
TacticalGroup=false
AvailStartDate=19420528
AvailEndDate=19451231

[propbeanie]

As lurker mentions in his ReadMe stuff, just opening the file, and looking at a group's Properties and clicking "OK" without making ~any~ changes will result in the ME making changes, not telling you about, and then Saving the changes without your permission. Going by the
TacticalGroup=false
AvailStartDate=19420528
AvailEndDate=19451231
which are unnecessary, the ME may have already done it. Of course, even some of lurker's files have those. They are usually found in groups that repeat their spawns in lurker's files - but not always. The big lines to check for changes are the
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=15249
Lines, which it looks like maybe my RSRDC files have been contaminated, since lurker usually has the DelayMin set to zero or one, instead of the Stock 60 minutes setting... :hmmm: - which means minimal delay to start the clock for the spawn chance, and the unit or group will try the spawn chance on the time set... but after the DelayMinInterv runs... which in this example is over 10.5 days... lurker has multiple set-ups he used, for whether a group did multiple spawns (as the example above apparently is), or another for a group that spawns once, and only once, on a set day, such as June 14, 1944 at 0715 hours... Re-reading this, and I seem to have mangled the explanation... oldmanitis :salute:

[skirich]

I tested the theory of just opening the file and poking around and I havent seen the timestamps on the files change at all, so I'm pretty sure nothing was altered.
As a precaution I'll recopy the main files and patch files and make them all read only.

[propbeanie]

I called the three lines
TacticalGroup=false
AvailStartDate=19420528
AvailEndDate=19451231
unnecessary and under most circumstances, they are. But if you want a certain unit or group to spawn at a certain time or when your boat gets to a certain location, those lines are necessary. You could have a DD waiting around the next point of land, that is triggered active when your submarine crosses into a MapZone you've created expressly for the purpose. The group or unit you want to have spawn like that has to be outside the "spawn" range (opinions differ between 24nm and 40km :roll: ). I usually use 32nm or 50km to be safe. Anyway, the GameEntry lines are usually quite a bit in the future, while the AvailableStart is earlier than needed... You then use a special Trigger in the ME to build the spawning... In other words, don't mistake my comment of "unnecessary" and go arbitrarily deleting lines from the files... :arrgh!: :salute:

[skirich]

Does that mean the sub needs to be that 24nms out from the spawn spot? If so how far is too far before the game just doesnt spawn the group?

[propbeanie]

The game tracks everything in a database, but does not render anything (except apparently water) until your submarine gets within the render range of the given object, which if you are using high TC in a busy world, you will notice a "hitch" in the display as the game renders stuff. Someone a few years ago had what they thought were the distances - probably based on a dev's statement (long since forgotten in the recesses of my grey matter), and lurker (??) makes a statement about it interfering with the renderings of the different battle scenes if you are in the wrong place in the wrong time, in that your submarine's presence in a scene can prevent groups from rendering when scheduled. I don't remember if he mentions distances in his ReadMe files or not... :salute:

[Red Devil]

new game and arrived at Midway, received radio message about major engagement at Midway. I am already there not a jap in sight!

[Moonlight]

Your sub has to be a certain distance away from the spawn point or the Japanese ships will not appear.
Play it again, mark there position on the nav map if you know it, draw a 20\25 mile circle around it and go take another look.

Don't be too eager to get there this time. :haha:

[Bubblehead1980]

Funny you post this, I was just testing in my TMO upgrade, I added the Battle of Midway (well rewrote it to be more in line with history, have the extra ships that were not available when TMO was last updated, added other things to Battle)

Finding them in game can be really tough, finding them to be in position to attack even more so. RSRD I found them once in correct positionin all years ran the mod. I heard them on sonar a few times and spotted in distance but never got close except once. One issue is the ridiculous number of planes carriers spawn, usually make it impossible to get close unless blind luck. I've eliminated that. Then there are spawn issues, esp if opened RSRD with the ME as others have mentioned. I avoided this by having the various task forces involve leave their home ports

In my test for my upgrade, I made SD contact and was overflown by a PBY early on 4 June (This is "Strawberry 5" ) which would fly over Nagumo's force and report it to Midway. I followed it's base course. Then numerous planes from Midway were detacted. I followed them to Nagumo's force and went to periscope depth. I found myself in position to attack the Kaga at around same time Nautilus attacked the force in reality. 4 torpedoes missed(barely) , one dud, one prematurely exploded. So force shows up. I may reduce number of planes from Midway and reduce the formation spacing, ships are too far apart.

[Red Devil]

I was near the Mariannas when the word went out I steamed and got there in no time, plenty of US aircraft oh yes, and a carrier in the harbour which wasn't there in real life. Then it said battle, but no battle.

[Moonlight]

You don't go to Midway Island you bloody numb nut, what you have to do is plot a course 430k North West of Midway and mark it, draw a circle of about 200 or 300 kilometres in circumference and if you're lucky you'll drop on them in there, or you might see some of their sonar lines which if you use your noggin you can plot an intercept course.

The area of battle comprised of hundreds of miles of sea so that 430 kilometres I told you to sail to is just the beginning of the area and they could be anywhere inside of that circle you've drawn, that's why you might not see them, if you play it a few times you should be able to find them every time, who knows you might even catch Nagumo having his morning cup of tea on the Bridge. :haha:

[Red Devil]

yo! numb nut here :doh:

I have done that in the past, to no avail. So this time I went to the NW of Midway but a lot nearer. My point is, the japs do not attack the islands. I should at least be spotting enemy aircraft on the way in or away from Midway. There is nothing at the occupants of midway are behaving normally. I hope Nagumo does not take sugar!!
I may start again in the near future and remember you're directions this time

Danke muchly:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

Most mods do not script nor RGG the airplane attack on the Atoll, and stock definitely doesn't.

[Red Devil]

opened old save at Feb 42, so moving on .............

[Red Devil]

Finally arrived at designated point 450 NM NW on 31 May and began sweeping the area - nothing. Then came radio msg attacks on Midway. Then NW of Midway I got a fleet in region so ran like hell after it, luckily I had refueled at Midway, but it turned out to be US Fleet. Nothing else found. Saved it on June 1 so going to change tac a bit and try again.

[propbeanie]

If you are in Stock, the "accuracy" of the various groups depends upon the date of your entry into the game. If you use the Stock Single Mission, it is better. If you are in FotRSU, it is slightly better, but just has a few ship calls changed to reflect the slightly more accurate Roster of FotRSU, but still the basic stock file, with adjusted dates of entry and for updating, depending upon when you enter the game, you should get the same appearances. TMO is similar in that regard, though the roster is basically still the stock game's. Put RSRDC on top of TMO, and while it is still the same basic Roster, at least lurker got a LOT closer with the movements, though if you open any of his files in the Mission Editor, it will through a lot of things off at least 24 hours, maybe more... Part seventeen of this, is that the game basically does what it wants to, when it wants to, so even with the skills of lurker involved, the game would still be off 12-24 hours with appearances, and maybe 120km off or where they are... "Variety" is what Ubisoft would tell you... lol :salute:

[Red Devil]

cheers Prop. Oh one thing, the program advertises the locations of US fleets but when the Jap fleets were spotted why dont we get a radio fix. The Catalinas and Avengers both found fleets and radio'd them in.