India bombs terror camps across LoC in Pakistan

[Georg Lassen]

Surgical strike 2.0? India bombs terror camps across LoC in
in Pakistani side
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/iaf-attacks-terror-camps-in-pakistan-occupied-kashmir-with-1000-kg-bomb/articleshow/68162569.cms


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JAdmKDX9v0

[Jimbuna]

This is all the region needs right now but India must maintain the right to defend itself.

[ikalugin]

Both of them are nuclear powers.

[Jimbuna]

As are quite a number of other nations.

Having nukes and the willpower to use them can and are two entirely different entities.

[em2nought]

The terrorist training camp was only there twelve years, if only Pakistan had a bit more time to take care of it themselves. :D

[ikalugin]

As are quite a number of other nations.

Having nukes and the willpower to use them can and are two entirely different entities.
The other nations do not generate incidents by conducting air attacks in each other's territory without proper prior negotiation.


The point I am trying to make is that while this incident did not escalate we should still be aware of the dangers those incidents create. Especially in the Indo-Pakistan relationship, where Pakistan's nuclear use threshhold is low and civilian positive control is questionable.

[Jimbuna]

I'm well aware of the dangers and what you meant but recent history shows both parties are never going to become the best of friends and I should imagine neither side would be willing to give advance warning of air strikes.

Pakistan has vowed revenge so now we wait and hope the potential escalation and further retalaitory actions will be minimal.

[em2nought]

So India could potentially take out Pakistan before they knew what hit them. :hmmm: Worth considering? This damn well better not interfere with my upcoming vacation. :03:

[Skybird]

The other nations do not generate incidents by conducting air attacks in each other's territory without proper prior negotiation.


The point I am trying to make is that while this incident did not escalate we should still be aware of the dangers those incidents create. Especially in the Indo-Pakistan relationship, where Pakistan's nuclear use threshhold is low and civilian positive control is questionable.
Pakistan is a known Muslim terror supporter, a breeding ground of jihadists and militant extremists that gets cloned in its radical religous schools due to an unlimited supoply in angry young men, and Pakistan also needs to be mentioned in combination with nuclear proliferation.

So tell all your warnings to India to Pakistan instead. From their soil the attack was laucnhed, and do not tell me that Pakistan did not know of it. They did attack India and killed 40+ of its security personnel by the use of "bucaneers", that way waging war without wanting to be called out for it. In my book Pakistan lets the Muslims terrorists wage a proxy war against India.

It were terrorists hosted by Pakistan since long that struck first here, like many times before. And you have the nerve to warn India of retaliating...? India did not start it - India saw its people getting killed in significant numbers.

[mapuc]

Pakistan has vowed revenge !?

Well either they are supporting those terrorist or they failed in having control of the populations

´cause as someone wrote India was in their right to defend them self even if it means attacking an another country or attacking groups of terrorist in another country.
The only one who can be blamed here is Pakistan

Markus

[mapuc]

^ Skybird I think you may have misunderstood my comment.

I say India was in their right to bomb this terrorist group in Pakistan and it's Pakistans own fault.

I know Pakistan is an Islamic country and they are supporting some terror groups.

Markus

[Skybird]

No Markus, I just messed up with posting a double post. Not your fault. 2nd post deleted.
:up:

[ikalugin]

Skybird, the issue is not that India has conducted strikes against Pakistan, the issue is that there is an incident between two nuclear powers, which is a bad thing.

Because if this thing goes nuclear then due to the scale of the local population you would get even more refugees in Europe than before, if nothing else.

P.s. on the other hand it would be most interesting to see a large scale conventional conflict between the two which would then escalate to a nuclear one for a military enthusiast such as myself.

[Catfish]

Pakistan says it shot down two indian military jets :hmmm:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-kashmir-pakistan-aircraft/pakistan-says-strikes-against-india-shoots-down-two-indian-aircraft-idUSKCN1QG0MC

[ikalugin]

Allegedly, yes, I would be careful with taking Pakistanian or Indian statements on this topic without verifying them first.

The airspace appears to be closed with a NOTAM till May.

[Catfish]

^ right, had changed it to ".. says it shot down.." before i saw your msg :up:

[ikalugin]

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1100681002417041408
Well the NOTAM story is quite interesting.

[Georg Lassen]

I think it is confirmed, not confirmed are the claims of heavy fighting along the border.

[Georg Lassen]

Pakistan hosted Al-Qaida in Afganistan and eventually even Osama inside Pakistan, all this with much collusion from Saudi-Arabia.
These two are just as hostile towards the West as the usual gang run by Russia and China.


When USA has the courage to finally cut ties with them everything will be much more clear.
Pakistan is historically close to China even today and Saudis are more and more aligning themselves with Russia and China.


US negotiating with Taleban about the future of Afganistan is totally meaningless, the confrence for that was held in Moscow and participants where Russia, China, Pakistan and the Taleban.

[Skybird]

Pakistan is one puzzle piece in Chinas surroundign strategy of India. If you look on a map, India is now encircled by China-allies and states China has massively bought itself into to gain influence.


To allow Pakistan developing the nuclear bomb was one of the modenr history's biggest mistakes.


Maybe India and Pakistan indeed are on their way to launch round four of their bout.

[Skybird]

Skybird, the issue is not that India has conducted strikes against Pakistan, the issue is that there is an incident between two nuclear powers, which is a bad thing.

Because if this thing goes nuclear then due to the scale of the local population you would get even more refugees in Europe than before, if nothing else.

P.s. on the other hand it would be most interesting to see a large scale conventional conflict between the two which would then escalate to a nuclear one for a military enthusiast such as myself.
There have already been three wars between the two, two of these wars were about Kashmir.
The point here is that Pakistan time and again carries out terror strikes against India, even inside India, by using its terror legions that it hosts so welcomingly. Some of these terror strikes of the past years were really extremely furious and costed scores of lifes. The point is that Pakistn does these acts of mass murder and atricitiy by calculating its nuclear wepaons give it immunity.


The point is that thy must learn to be afraid of the Indians retaliating, no matter the nukes. As long as India does not threaten to indeed push Pakistan beyond an essential re dline beyond which its very existence is threatened, i am not overly concerned about a nuclear war there.


And refugees from there to here I neither see coming in scores, nor are the Europeans forced to give up control of their borders like they find so clever still today. EU states were so stupid just recently to delay all announced actions for boosting FRONTEX beyond 2027, I predict that will move most of that will never materilaise. If the Europeans are this stupid, then let them pay the price for their stupdity in case any masses from Pakistan and India indeed reaches Europe. Selbst schuld.

[ikalugin]

Skybird, as a rule those wars were before both parties went nuclear.


There are more people in India and Pakistan than there are in Africa and some of the other regions people migrate from to the EU. If there is a nuclear exchange there would be a massive supply of actual refugees (not migrants as there is a valid threat to their life) and massive demand (for moral reasons).



"In the aerial engagement, a Pakistan fighter aircraft was shot down by a MiG-21 Bison. The aircraft was seen by ground forces falling on the Pakistan side: MEA"
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/indian-air-force-strikes-on-terror-camps-in-pakistan-live-updates/liveblog/68177682.cms
Would be amusing if MiG 21-93 shot down a block 50 Viper.

[Georg Lassen]

And refugees from there to here I neither see coming in scores, nor are the Europeans forced to give up control of their borders like they find so clever still today. EU states were so stupid just recently to delay all announced actions for boosting FRONTEX beyond 2027, I predict that will move most of that will never materilaise. If the Europeans are this stupid, then let them pay the price for their stupdity in case any masses from Pakistan and India indeed reaches Europe. Selbst schuld.


FRONTEX is one of the main federalist projects after the euro currency, borders are secure when they are enforced, not by facilititating entry.

[Skybird]

Skybird, as a rule those wars were before both parties went nuclear.
I know. What I mean is that in the two wars over Kashmir they did not go as far as to trying to - conventionally - overrun each other'S whole counties or destroying/disrupting them.



Only if relgious nutties take over in Islamaba there is reason to worry. Fact is the givernment and the military are sharing control, and it is not clear who of the two is the stronger one.But both of them are calculating for their own power and interest - and that rules out potentially suicidal nuclear experiments. I fear the Pakistani proliferation of nuke tech much more.



There are more people in India and Pakistan than there are in Africa and some of the other regions people migrate from to the EU. If there is a nuclear exchange there would be a massive supply of actual refugees (not migrants as there is a valid threat to their life) and massive demand (for moral reasons).

As I said, the Europeans are not forced to let them in. If they would be so stupid to nevertheless do it - then that is the Europeans' own stupidity. So let them suffer from it.


Wer nicht hören will, muß fühlen.

[Georg Lassen]

Only if relgious nutties take over in Islamaba there is reason to worry. Fact is the givernment and the military are sharing control, and it is not clear who of the two is the stronger one.But both of them are calculating for their own power and interest - and that rules out potentially suicidal nuclear experiments. I fear the Pakistani proliferation of nuke tech much more.







That guy running Saudi-Arabia is a good candidate to go nuclear from the Pakistan program they have helped fund.

[Georg Lassen]

There are more people in India and Pakistan than there are in Africa and some of the other regions people migrate from to the EU. If there is a nuclear exchange there would be a massive supply of actual refugees (not migrants as there is a valid threat to their life) and massive demand (for moral reasons).




Europe cant take any more migrating peoples in without serious internal conclicts erupting, that is the reason Turkey and others have weaponized it.

[ikalugin]

Europe cant take any more migrating peoples in without serious internal conclicts erupting, that is the reason Turkey and others have weaponized it.
I doubt that the advocates of refugees would care about this argument.


Especially if nuclear weapons were used and there is this whole moral aspect.

[Georg Lassen]

I doubt that the advocates of refugees would care about this argument.


Especially if nuclear weapons were used and there is this whole moral aspect.




Well West will have to man up or die holding the moral high ground.

[Skybird]

BTW, my historic memory failed me. There already were FOUR wars over Kashmir: 47, 65, 71 and 99. And if one counts the time or notorious unrest and clashes in Kashmir during the 80s, even FIVE.


Even more if counting more smaller clashes. Hot grounds.

[Skybird]

Well West will have to man up or die holding the moral high ground.
Yep, the West is crucifying itself over always absolute morale claims that all too often lack sense of realism, and a realsitic oercepotion of one's own de facto abilities. Also, there are those foreign actors/nations that use migration and demography as a weapon of non-military means to damage the West.


But i say again, the West must not do this, is free to decide against this. If Wetserners don't do that, its their own fault. They will fall - and their superior absolute morality with them. Karma.

[Jimbuna]

Pakistan says it has shot down two Indian military jets and captured two pilots in a major escalation between the nuclear powers over Kashmir.

India says it lost one MiG21 fighter and a pilot was missing in action.

Pakistani PM Imran Khan said the two sides could not afford a miscalculation with the weapons they had.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47383634

Potential future events will possibly result as to what Imran Khan can influence. A former world class cricket legend and someone I've actually met in those heady days.

[Georg Lassen]

Potential future events will possibly result as to what Imran Khan can influence. A former world class cricket legend and someone I've actually met in those heady days.


Interesting, in what context?


I dont rate either countries military very highly, they are propably equal to each other but India will take it with numbers.

[Jimbuna]

Who actually has the controlling power in Pakistan, the military or the politicians?

In times of militery conflict I think the politicians will be overruled.

[Georg Lassen]

Who actually has the controlling power in Pakistan, the military or the politicians?

In times of militery conflict I think the politicians will be overruled.


Military and ISI that is under its control are in ultimate control of peace or war IMHO.

[ikalugin]

Regardles of this study's validity you may find it of interest:
http://www.nucleardarkness.org/warconsequences/fivemilliontonsofsmoke/

[Georg Lassen]

Regardles of this study's validity you may find it of interest:
http://www.nucleardarkness.org/warconsequences/fivemilliontonsofsmoke/


I call BS, limited nuclear war is viable without ending the world.

But I will admit that these two countries might have the most dangerous nukes in the world after North-Korea from enviromental perspective just from radiation and other inperfections of the devices.

[Jimbuna]

Could be the end of the Wagah Attari Border ceremonies :03:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0ue-XGl9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rg8z1BLYkE

[Skybird]

Peacock operetta.

Long since known, but never fails to raise my laughter.I understand and to some degree respect certain military tzraditions and thepurpose they fulfill. This is so much animalistic instinct-driven nonsense, I refuse any respect at all, and just burst with laughter. Have these little monkeys not the smallest self-esteem...?? Or do they sit and chat together after the stage show and drink together and laugh about themselves? That I could understand.

[Georg Lassen]

Peacock operetta.

Long since known, but never fails to raise my laughter.I understand and to some degree respect certain military tzraditions and thepurpose they fulfill. This is so much animalistic instinct-driven nonsense, I refuse any respect at all, and just burst with laughter. Have these little monkeys not the smallest self-esteem...?? Or do they sit and chat together after the stage show and drink together and laugh about themselves? That I could understand.


Maybe the funds for nuclear and space programs would have been better served in public education and infrastructure, China in comparison can put every child in school and feed them.

[Georg Lassen]

Reports that India is moving Sukhois to Kashmir, interesting to see them in action as they have been closely guarding their radars and other sensors.

[mapuc]

In the evening news

- "The situation in Kashmir between India and Pakistan have taken a turn to the worse. Fighting among the militaries, fighter jet shot down on both side."
(while the anchor said those words, they were showing picture from some battle. I could hear artillery and other weapon and lots of black smoke)

Markus

[nikimcbee]

This is all the region needs right now but India must maintain the right to defend itself.


Plus, Jim needs to maintain his supply of curry.:Kaleun_Wink: I suspect this is some sort of nefarious plot by British or Aussie cricket....:hmmm:

[nikimcbee]

Could be the end of the Wagah Attari Border ceremonies :03:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0ue-XGl9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rg8z1BLYkE




Hey, leave Steed out of this! Although I am impressed with his dance skills!:Kaleun_Applaud:

[em2nought]

I remember the good ol' days when what is today the fake news media actually covered the events in Las Islas Malvinas. I wish Al Jazeera was in our cable package. :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Apparently Pakistan has cut shore leaves for the Navy and India is deploying troops under the cold start doctrine.

[mapuc]

Some hours ago I read two article in a Danish online paper.

The first was about Danish citizens who lived and/or worked in Pakistan or India and their fear of a war between these two countries.

The second article which I came to think about when reading ikalugin last comment in this thread.

Expert on this area-None of them are interested in a war.

He may be right, however both side is acting like they are preparing for a war.

Markus

[Skybird]

Upcoming elections in India, Markus. Indian candidates cannot afford to appear weak over this crisis.

[Mr Quatro]

These two countries haven't had a real war since the 1970's ...

If India strikes first they are in for a heap of trouble with the brotherhood of Islam on Pakistan's side.


Source of information is from wikileaks

Pakistan officially the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a country in South Asia. It is the world’s sixth-most populous country with a population exceeding 212,742,631 people

India also known as the Republic of India is a country in South Asia. It is the seventh largest country by area and with more than 1.3 billion people, it is the second most populous country and the most populous democracy in the world.

But if Pakistan should attack India first India would wipe them out and the country would be no more (a country that has only been in around since 1947).

As a game player and an arm chair admiral this is interesting to watch ... I do not condone bloodshed however.:oops:

[Reece]

I hope both sides realize that no one wins in a nuclear war, the fallout can easily drift to neighboring countries as well. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

I wanted to quote the bible meaning of peace "The peace I give unto you is not the same peace that the world gives", but I offer the merriam-webster dictionary instead :yep:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/peace

peace noun
\ ˈpēs \
Definition of peace (Entry 1 of 3)
1 : a state of tranquility or quiet: such as
a : freedom from civil disturbance
Peace and order were finally restored in the town.
b : a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom
a breach of the peace
2 : freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions
I have been in perfect peace and contentment
— J. H. Newman
3 : harmony in personal relations
The sisters are at peace with each other.
4a : a state or period of mutual concord between governments
There was a peace of 50 years before war broke out again.
b : a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity
offered the possibility of a negotiated peace
— New York Times
5 —used interjectionally to ask for silence or calm or as a greeting or farewell
at peace
: in a state of concord or tranquility
The problem was settled and his mind was at peace.

[Reece]

6 :
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/0c/c9/590cc92ec47f69a18297958e8ee61039.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Pakistan will release a captured Indian pilot as a "peace gesture" on Friday, Prime Minister Imran Khan has said.

Mr Khan revealed the decision in parliament after a speech in which he said Pakistan was focused on de-escalation.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47399126

That is a great gesture, a step in the right direction.

It had earlier been reported there was a second Indian airman in hospital :hmmm:

[mapuc]

They have to solve this Kashmir dispute. Because this land area is the major cause to all these clashes between them now and then.

And Pakistans support to terrorist should also come to an end.

Markus

[em2nought]

That is a great gesture, a step in the right direction.

It had earlier been reported there was a second Indian airman in hospital :hmmm:


Hopefully they don't release him in pieces.

[d@rk51d3]

Adds new meaning to "India vs Pakistan Ashes Series".

[Jimbuna]

Crowds of Indians are gathering near a border crossing with Pakistan ahead of the release of an Indian fighter pilot captured by Pakistan.

Pakistan's Prime Minister Imran Khan said the pilot would be released as a "peace gesture" on Friday. India's military welcomed the move.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's plane was shot down in the disputed region of Kashmir on Wednesday.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47399126

No doubt he'll be treated as a hero by the people but I'm not so sure about his comrades.

[Jimbuna]

Wagah Border Live: IAF Pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman to Return to India.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA7IDBHLE-U

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_WCR2lKstU

[ikalugin]

O dear, the Infographics show.

[Jimbuna]

India and Pakistan have fought six wars since the countries were formed in 1947 after being granted independence from the British Empire.

https://news.sky.com/story/india-and-pakistan-the-deadly-history-of-the-neighbours-born-from-conflict-11649762#

[Jimbuna]

Pakistan claimed to have repulsed an Indian submarine from entering its waters amid heightened tensions between the nuclear-armed foes following recent military clashes.https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pakistan-intercepted-indian-submarine-q9shz6pvj

Delhi has denied Pakistan's claim that it intercepted an Indian submarine that attempted to sail into its waters, as the two nations continued to trade barbs after a week of escalating tensions.

Pakistan said the incident occurred on Monday night, when the country's navy "detected and blocked" an Indian navy submarine from entering its waters.https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/05/asia/pakistan-india-navy-submarine-intl/index.html

A couple of days old now so I doubt if we will ever discover which side is being truthful.