Bad weather tactics

[Mios 4Me]

Found an unescorted convoy of large freighters off the coast of Honshu but the weather is so bad I can't detect them far away enough for the torpedoes to arm. I'd happily gun down a huge liner but these are too heavily armed for short ranges. I tried to use radar on the attack screen but couldn't get a firing solution.



Dawn and clearing weather will bring swarms of pesky planes. Am I overlooking anything?




This is stock 1.3 with automatic targeting.

[propbeanie]

You really don't always need a "Lock" in auto-targeting. Make certain that you have your tubes doors open, and then point your scope or TBT at the target, and press the PK button. As soon as you can, press the Fire button. If you are between 500-800 yards away, especially if close to a 90° solution, you should hit the beast. You could "lead" the target toward the direction of travel, but still aiming at its hull. Be careful of oblique angles, especially if you have "duds" checked in the Options screen, because if the torpedo gyro has to turn too far, it might "circle-run" on you and come back like a boomerang...

Now, if you don't have the Steam version, you could try the Silent Hunter 4 v1.4 update (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=8), and get slightly better game performance. However, your old Saves would not be compatible with it. If you have Steam, you have to purchase and use their Uboat Mission Addon package, which would take you to version 1.5, which is better. :salute:

[Mios 4Me]

I can't acquire the targets beyond 350m. By then I'm backing out full speed at varying angles under heavy fire, so I'd rather not spray torpedoes without a high likelihood of hitting. This is the only convoy of its kind i've found and the war's almost over.



I hoped radar might work but couldn't get a red solution light. Plus I have no idea what the odd appendage on the sub icon on the attack screen is - related to tracking, I assume, but it loops back 180 degrees. If I click PK, a white x appears at its end.


So I should bore into the convoy from the flank at 90 degrees using radar, select the nearest victim, add a click or two ahead to the torpedo spread, then fire blindly at a moderate depth setting, and hope for the best?



I have the Steam version but can't install the update or the 1.5 game on the current laptop. Once this career is over, I have stock 1.5 on the new laptop but I think I'll mod it first. Would be nice to have a Mark 16 laden Tench in 1941, assuming anyone's created that.

[propbeanie]

No flank speed when shooting - unless you're running from a persistent DD on the surface, and use the rear tubes... :roll: Ahead 1/3. Can you see the ships' "shadows" in the fog / rain / wind? If you can see them, they most likely can see you, especially during daylight hours. Have you plotted their course on your NavMap yet? That would help you immensely in figuring out where they are going to be after a set time period. What you describe with the white "X" is where your torpedo is going to go, and where it is projected to impact what you set the PK on (Position Keeper). If you see it going off at a weird angle to your boat instead of straight out and then a pinch of a bend, say no more than 15°, then you should try to come straighter in on the target, being mindful of range. There are a few tutorials on targeting, whether auto- or manual- up in Rockin Robbin's Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1025180#post1025180) thread. Be sure and visit THEBERBSTER's thread SH4 <> TUTORIALS <> HOW TO DO IT <> INFO <> DOWNLOAD LINKS -STICKY INDEX (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2297818#post2297818). Those two fellows point you at just about every useful tidbit of info there is to be found on SH4... :salute:

[Barkerov]

I agree with propbeanie, this is where learning maunal targeting could really come in handy for you.

For me, I would just use the radar to make a plot on the map, time them on course for 3 mins (if your measuring in yards, 3:15 if you're using meters) divide that number by 100 to get speed. Then I would use the plot to get range and AOB, program all that into the TDC, check that the solution lined up with the targets position in the attack map and when I was happy, then I'd fire.



I imagine you'd see them through the fog very clearly after that. For a while at least...

[Mios 4Me]

Thanks for the the suggestions - they are useful indeed. I'd hoped to use radar to hit multiple targets per attack but the first one shattered the formation and they never regrouped. Individual large ships acted as if they had radar detectors but not radar itself as they avoided my attack setups. I finally hunted them down individually by passive sonar, submerging, and backing off at flank to launch at the very edge of vision. The two smaller ones I battle-surfaced on, saving the Mark 16 Thunderfish for sniping a fat liner and escort from 4500m later.



Gotta say I love the new torps and the 5/25 when used individually. Together the ROF is almost halved, rendering the second gun almost moot.

[propbeanie]

I just did an experiment, and even when sitting at radar depth in thick fog with rain, with visibility less than 500 yards, the ships were able to "see" my shears, and inflict damage with some cannon hits. Of course, they were alerted by an escort... I'll have to process some of the pix, and post something for you Mios 4Me to illustrate what I'm getting at with the auto-targeting not needing the "lock". :salute:

[Armistead]

Pretty easy using deck guns in bad weather, just get sonar bearings nearest ship, get within about 600 yards and shoot down the bearing. After a few shots, usually the ship shows some fire and you can easily see it at longer distances. Just watch radar if it's later war and enemy escorts have radar, they run right up your arse. Lot more fun later war when you get the 40's.

[propbeanie]

All 3 that I ran into this morning were armed... :doh: - the second one shot my radar dead, another got the scopes. I did get all three of them with some difficulty, and I got their little dog too! (AuxSubChaser)... :salute:

[Sniper297]

One thing to consider in low visibility, range is not the same as the torpedo run. Torpedo comes out the tube, makes a 400 yard straight run, then starts the gyro turn (if any) and arms the exploder. Why that makes a difference, depends on target speed and direction.
Torpedo set for 31 knots, target speed 31 knots, range 400 yards.
Head on, torpedo run is 200 yards because the target moved 200 yards and they met in the middle. Thud, no bang.
Firing from behind, torpedo runs until it's out of fuel, since both the torpedo and the target are going the same speed it will never catch up.

If the target is going 20 knots and the torpedo is set for 46 knots firing from directly behind, you could probably get away with shooting at 200 yards range since the torpedo would have to catch up, making a long enough run to arm the warhead. I've never tried this in actual experiments, but in the middle of a task force I've got a cruiser or something coming at me already too close, I wait until he passes and opens the range a little. Depending on speed and gyro angle I've hit from 100 yards with a 160 AOB.

[Mios 4Me]

SH4 is putting on a graduate-level exam on bad weather tactics tonight: I have two escorted convoys converging in the middle of the night with us right in between, but when the scope pops up, we're in a heavy storm on a moonless night. I can see shapes at either end of the boat, but can't lock on to anything.



Did I mention this is just a few hours before Hiroshima and the safety of Tokyo Bay is only hours away? Time is very short, so i don't want to sling torpedoes around willy-nilly; the emperor is quite welcome to keep his small-tonnage freighters for all I care, but the large ones belong to me.



Any suggestions?

[KaleunMarco]

SH4 is putting on a graduate-level exam on bad weather tactics tonight: I have two escorted convoys converging in the middle of the night with us right in between, but when the scope pops up, we're in a heavy storm on a moonless night. I can see shapes at either end of the boat, but can't lock on to anything.



Did I mention this is just a few hours before Hiroshima and the safety of Tokyo Bay is only hours away? Time is very short, so i don't want to sling torpedoes around willy-nilly; the emperor is quite welcome to keep his small-tonnage freighters for all I care, but the large ones belong to me.



Any suggestions?


keep closing until you can lock onto a target. yes, it IS frustrating but there is no secret method. use your full sensor suite to get in close enough to fire. sometimes, you need to run at decks-awash with crew on the bridge to be able to target surface ships during a storm. be ready to sight, lock, fire, and dive...all within a very few moments.yes, you must be somewhat intrepidacious and well trained to accomplish this. :up:

good luck captain.
:salute:

[Mios 4Me]

Do we have any parameters on Japanese radar detection, i.e. ranges, number of sweeps required for detection, when it rolls out to the fleet and merchant marine, ship types that may not receive it, etc? I rarely use radar since it seems to be a tin-can magnet and large merchants turn away from it.



OTOH, after three career years of diving at every air contact, the boat became an ace in a day after sufficient annoyance, so maybe I've been missing out on radar too.

[KaleunMarco]

Do we have any parameters on Japanese radar detection, i.e. ranges, number of sweeps required for detection, when it rolls out to the fleet and merchant marine, ship types that may not receive it, etc? I rarely use radar since it seems to be a tin-can magnet and large merchants turn away from it.



OTOH, after three career years of diving at every air contact, the boat became an ace in a day after sufficient annoyance, so maybe I've been missing out on radar too.
i am sure there is plenty of data available on IJN Radar Detection on the web. here is an example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Imperial_Navy


the use case here is that you are on the attack at close range. radar detection is not the real problem at the range you are attacking because your boat has probably been detected by surface radar. maybe. depends on a lot of variables but probably.

you can either use radar to help you locate enemy vessels at close range or rely on visual detection or stay submerged and try for a sonar shot, which is tough with WWII technology. keep in mind that you still not be able to lock on to a target using either technology...only visual contact will enable you to lock onto a target to fire a torpedo. at the range you are attacking, do you need target lock? use the info you have and attack. you will have to develop your skill at attacking without target lock. it will take practice and you will miss with torpedos but that is the cost of experience. just don't get run over by an AK or CA. it can ruin your whole day.
:salute:
good luck.

[Berserker]

Why risk your boat and crew..There will be other targets coming along let the weather calm down or push control N...My average engagement range is from 2100 yds to a long shot st 5000+ yds...

[Mios 4Me]

Thanks for the link. That's a good first step, but, considering the liberties Ubisoft apparently has taken with surface and AA gunnery, along with perhaps not accounting for the effects of torpex and the neutering of historical night surface attacks, I still wouldn't know what creative license they've taken with these sensors.



That's a good point about some merchants having radar instead of some version of Japanese Metox. It must be useless past ~18 km if so, because no one ever reacts to us running ahead to that distance. I don't have enough examples but my impression is that ships in difficult conditions like these do not maneuver to avoid us beyond 600 m or so unless our radar is on. Perhaps only the largest freighters, my target that night, and tankers have it.


Berserker, these are the first targets worthy of a Mk 16 we've seen in days, even off Tokyo, and the ceasefire is less than 10 days off. And because I'm a bloodyminded SOB. :)


ETA: both convoys changed courses to stay roughly parallel - apparently bound for Sitka (WTH?) - but not remaining mutually supporting. That's where I really question the game's AI.



Both had the same number of ships but one convoy had one escort to the other's four. One torp and a little gunnery practice later, there was only the one convoy left, with two of its heaviest units sniped so far already. The surface awash and flank attacks don't work in this situation; I have to run ahead, submerge perpendicular to the center column, ascend from the thermocline once the lead DD has passed, then dart back and forth between the center and an outside column to maintain enough distance for the torpedoes to arm while still keeping the target in sight.

[Armistead]

SH4 is putting on a graduate-level exam on bad weather tactics tonight: I have two escorted convoys converging in the middle of the night with us right in between, but when the scope pops up, we're in a heavy storm on a moonless night. I can see shapes at either end of the boat, but can't lock on to anything.



Did I mention this is just a few hours before Hiroshima and the safety of Tokyo Bay is only hours away? Time is very short, so i don't want to sling torpedoes around willy-nilly; the emperor is quite welcome to keep his small-tonnage freighters for all I care, but the large ones belong to me.



Any suggestions?



Surface and get to work with those 40's and deckgun. Just watch your radar if you see a escort coming because he has radar, dive deep enuf to be dived and he'll go back on station. Just get close to ships using radar and ask for sonar bearings to nearest ship and fire, you'll score.

[Mios 4Me]

FYI: locked on attacks are possible within a 50 meter band from 450-500m, i.e. between the point where torpedoes arm and where the TDC can no longer distinguish a target in bad weather.


No idea whether it applies in the worst weather.

[Sniper297]

This morning in an Asiatic career ran into one of them bad weather situations with three anchored cruisers, playing with auto targeting and map contact updates on. With radar the outlines of ships show up on the map in gray, and also on the plotting map.

https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53352528_2296085867102347_2343192959647744000_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=de04e903942038b480784f32472149ce&oe=5D0AB77E

Couldn't get anything at all visually, but playing with the plot and moving the helm and TBT around;

https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53435025_2296085840435683_1592971419824685056_o.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=7eac4af382a2520f1cfeff2e7c1a5998&oe=5D1193BB

Got the torpedo track line going through the target before shooting, nailed all three.

https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/54256659_2296085873769013_708338745329319936_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=24ab9a0135a8a000701dacbec2efc99a&oe=5D05C25A

Never actually saw the targets without switching to external view and "flying" over to them. Dunno if this would work on moving targets, you'd have to guesstimate and do a lot of math to know where to aim, but with a slow moving convoy, overlapping targets, and a spread you'd probably get a reasonable percentage of hits.

[Sniper297]

FOUND ONE! :woot:

Same day, single target in same weather. Instead of measuring the speed of the target on the map, I used this table;

nautical mile 6080 feet
2027 yards.
46 knots = 93,227 yards per hour
1554 yards per minute
26 yards per second
500 yards = 19 seconds
1000 yards = 38 seconds
1200 yards = 46 seconds
1500 yards = 58 seconds
1750 yards = 67 seconds
2000 yards = 77 seconds (1 minute 17)
2500 yards = 96 seconds (1 minute 36 seconds)

Drew out the target track, set my sub 1500 yards off the track (facing away since I was out of torpedoes forward), then measured the distance the target moved in one minute by the stopwatch. Drew out the projected torpedo track then measured off 350 yards along the target track from that. When the target reaches the correct distance from the torpedo track, that's the firing point. Constant bearing spread 10 seconds apart for three fish (all I had left) got two hits, although the first one alone would have done it.

Never saw the target visually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs9DnWOcjFo&feature=youtu.be