Torpedo damage

[jimmbbo]

How does the game assign ship damage to a torpedo hit?

Using both auto-targeting and the O'Kane method, I have usually had success by firing the torpedoes* in quick succession, reckoning that they will impact very close to one another, causing maximum damage, but occasionally the ship will become a floating or limping hulk, failing to sink till a final fish or deck gun HE rounds send it to Davy Jones' Locker...

Seems like the game takes into account where the fish hit, or throws in a random "don't sink" command?? :hmmm:

* Generally, I use these to attack merchants
1 torpedo for small ships
2 torpedoes for medium ships and passenger liners
3 torpedoes for large ships

[merc4ulfate]

Those with modding experience will be able to answer this question better.

To my knowledge there are different damage zones on a vessel. If you only are hitting one zone then once that zone has maximum damage nothing else is occurring. You might put four fish in a ship when two or there might have done the job by hitting different zones of the vessel. Some might have port and starboard zones as well I am not sure.

I have had some get struck only on one side and not sink until I moved and hit the other side.

If a ship has no deck gun I do not bother with torpedoes. I use my deck gun.

[propbeanie]

There are damage "spheres" and "boxes" inside the models, and a ship has a total of "hit points" that can be expended. The hit points are what determines the sinking, but hitting a ship in the same place, while it would ultimately do more damage to a real ship, with a 3D model it sometimes doesn't. The area targeted has already expended its local hit points total, so another hit there almost seems to do nothing, though you usually hit a little one way or the other, and some ships sink like that anyway. If you're using manual targeting, aim a bit forward, fire one, pause for the bridge, fire two, pause for the rear king post, fire three (in simple terms), and you should have a good spread. If using manual, you could "lock", hit pk, and fire, unlock move forward, hit pk again, fire, etc., aiming where you want to hit, hitting the PK for a new "aim", and the "TDC" does all your angle solving... spread the hits across a ship's total damage zone. I do usually concentrate on an area though, like the bow to the stack, or try to anyway... :roll: The game does seem to model a hit to the boilers, but doesn't do very well with prop and rudder damage... :salute:

[merc4ulfate]

There are damage "spheres" and "boxes" inside the models, and a ship has a total of "hit points" that can be expended. The hit points are what determines the sinking, but hitting a ship in the same place, while it would ultimately do more damage to a real ship, with a 3D model it sometimes doesn't. The area targeted has already expended its local hit points total, so another hit there almost seems to do nothing, though you usually hit a little one way or the other, and some ships sink like that anyway. If you're using manual targeting, aim a bit forward, fire one, pause for the bridge, fire two, pause for the rear king post, fire three (in simple terms), and you should have a good spread. If using manual, you could "lock", hit pk, and fire, unlock move forward, hit pk again, fire, etc., aiming where you want to hit, hitting the PK for a new "aim", and the "TDC" does all your angle solving... spread the hits across a ship's total damage zone. I do usually concentrate on an area though, like the bow to the stack, or try to anyway... :roll: The game does seem to model a hit to the boilers, but doesn't do very well with prop and rudder damage... :salute:

I use the angle adjustment on the TDC to spread out my fish. I have also had situations where I just could not get a lock due to weather and I pointed my bow where it needed to be then fired while turning.

[NZSharkbait]

There are damage "spheres" and "boxes" inside the models, and a ship has a total of "hit points" that can be expended. The hit points are what determines the sinking, but hitting a ship in the same place, while it would ultimately do more damage to a real ship, with a 3D model it sometimes doesn't. The area targeted has already expended its local hit points total, so another hit there almost seems to do nothing, though you usually hit a little one way or the other, and some ships sink like that anyway. If you're using manual targeting, aim a bit forward, fire one, pause for the bridge, fire two, pause for the rear king post, fire three (in simple terms), and you should have a good spread. If using manual, you could "lock", hit pk, and fire, unlock move forward, hit pk again, fire, etc., aiming where you want to hit, hitting the PK for a new "aim", and the "TDC" does all your angle solving... spread the hits across a ship's total damage zone. I do usually concentrate on an area though, like the bow to the stack, or try to anyway... :roll: The game does seem to model a hit to the boilers, but doesn't do very well with prop and rudder damage... :salute:


Does varying the depth of torpedoes work on the 3D damage model? As an example, the large modern tanker is shown in the recognition manual as having a draft of 28', so, if I have time, I set the first torpedo to run at 26', the second at 22' and a third and (if needed) a fourth at 18' - my theory being that varying the depth can also spread the damage. It seems to work, because I have had large modern tankers split in half after only two hits just behind the forward deck houses.

[merc4ulfate]

Does varying the depth of torpedoes work on the 3D damage model? As an example, the large modern tanker is shown in the recognition manual as having a draft of 28', so, if I have time, I set the first torpedo to run at 26', the second at 22' and a third and (if needed) a fourth at 18' - my theory being that varying the depth can also spread the damage. It seems to work, because I have had large modern tankers split in half after only two hits just behind the forward deck houses.

Always set your depth ten feet shallower then your desired depth. LOL

[propbeanie]

Yeah, like merc says, if you have "duds" enabled in the game, they might also run deep, but to your question, going deep and shallow would probably make the "collision detection" place in another damage zone, so I could see that making a difference. There are all sorts of ways to "target" a ship. Read through Rockin Robbin's Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1025180#post1025180) thread and watch some of the videos there.

[jimmbbo]

There are damage "spheres" and "boxes" inside the models, and a ship has a total of "hit points" that can be expended. The hit points are what determines the sinking, but hitting a ship in the same place, while it would ultimately do more damage to a real ship, with a 3D model it sometimes doesn't. The area targeted has already expended its local hit points total, so another hit there almost seems to do nothing, though you usually hit a little one way or the other, and some ships sink like that anyway. If you're using manual targeting, aim a bit forward, fire one, pause for the bridge, fire two, pause for the rear king post, fire three (in simple terms), and you should have a good spread. If using manual, you could "lock", hit pk, and fire, unlock move forward, hit pk again, fire, etc., aiming where you want to hit, hitting the PK for a new "aim", and the "TDC" does all your angle solving... spread the hits across a ship's total damage zone. I do usually concentrate on an area though, like the bow to the stack, or try to anyway... :roll: The game does seem to model a hit to the boilers, but doesn't do very well with prop and rudder damage... :salute:
Interesting about the "hit points", but makes sense from a game building POV... Will try spreading them out a bit. I usually set all torps at 10 ft and adjust if time allows, reckoning that I can still sink small vessels with a snap shot if that's the only opportunity I have... Also did notice that stern hits didn't do much damage... Thanks!
:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

SH1 seemed to do stern damage, and I don't understand why it's not in SH4... but hit a ship under the stack, and it serves the same purpose. It'd be interesting though, if every once in a while you'd see a damaged ship circle and circle... :salute:

[merc4ulfate]

Interesting about the "hit points", but makes sense from a game building POV... Will try spreading them out a bit. I usually set all torps at 10 ft and adjust if time allows, reckoning that I can still sink small vessels with a snap shot if that's the only opportunity I have... Also did notice that stern hits didn't do much damage... Thanks!
:Kaleun_Salute:

OK I understand the term "snapshot" as it relates to an ADCAP but not in Silent Hunter. Using a snapshot firing technique in Silent Hunter would be a waste of fish.

[jimmbbo]

OK I understand the term "snapshot" as it relates to an ADCAP but not in Silent Hunter. Using a snapshot firing technique in Silent Hunter would be a waste of fish.


I likely used a technically incorrect shorthand means of saying "take a quick shot on minimum data because the bad guys are on my a$$"

If my setup looks decent and I get jumped by a DD, I have had some success by taking the shot even with only a "gut feel" that it's right. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it and reckon it was successful about 3/5 times.

[jimmbbo]

Did some 'sperimenting with autotargeting last night and found success with getting the green triangle on large merchants, launching the first torpedo with a 5 count each for the next two... 100% success with some really impressive secondary explosions and breakups.
Small sample size, but encouraging.

[KaleunMarco]

I likely used a technically incorrect shorthand means of saying "take a quick shot on minimum data because the bad guys are on my a$$"

If my setup looks decent and I get jumped by a DD, I have had some success by taking the shot even with only a "gut feel" that it's right. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it and reckon it was successful about 3/5 times.
you used the correct term which started in the early days of undersea warfare.
:salute:

[merc4ulfate]

I likely used a technically incorrect shorthand means of saying "take a quick shot on minimum data because the bad guys are on my a$$"

If my setup looks decent and I get jumped by a DD, I have had some success by taking the shot even with only a "gut feel" that it's right. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it and reckon it was successful about 3/5 times.

Roger

[NZSharkbait]

I likely used a technically incorrect shorthand means of saying "take a quick shot on minimum data because the bad guys are on my a$$"

If my setup looks decent and I get jumped by a DD, I have had some success by taking the shot even with only a "gut feel" that it's right. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it and reckon it was successful about 3/5 times.


I recently encountered a convoy of large, fast passenger liners in dense fog; my radar could see them approaching, but visibility was near zero, so I dialed my engines so I was almost drifting at 2 knots, while still surfaced, near their projected course. Next thing I knew, a large old passenger liner came barrelling out of the fog, doing 15 knots @ 600 yards.
I quickly shot off two torpedoes, almost purely on a guess, and was shocked when they exploded midships, blew it in half and dropped it within a minute. :timeout:

[Sniper297]

Excerpt from "SINK 'EM ALL" by Charles Lockwood :

..."sighted a cruiser and destroyer, but the cruiser disappeared behind an island. BLUEGILL then then began an approach on the destroyer, but suddenly the cruiser reappeared, making high speed. It was a snap shot, for Barr only had time to make a quick set up, swing to the firing course, and fire six torpedoes."

Went on to say three hits out of six fish, and sunk the cruiser. If "snap shot" is okay with Admiral Lockwood (COMSUBPAC) who are we to argue? :salute:

As for the original question, my guess is the programmers used the early war specs for the torpedoes - 400 pounds of TNT at the beginning. After most of the Ralph Christie screwups were fixed (that bozo should have been court martialed) the warheads in the Mark 14 were 643 pounds of torpex, which had 150% of the bang of TNT. So a 643 pound torpex warhead equals about 965 pounds of TNT in blastology, more than twice the bang of the original they started the war with. So finding a mod with double the damage is a good start, I made one that's adjustable according to taste;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4380

There are five optional mods, number 3 is 125 + 125 - increases the power and damage radius, which increases the hit point loss and spreads the damaged area for bigger holes. That one feels about right to me, although for the crazies there are two more powerful mods that - well, that they get a bang out of. :/\\x:

[jimmbbo]

As for the original question, my guess is the programmers used the early war specs for the torpedoes - 400 pounds of TNT at the beginning. After most of the Ralph Christie screwups were fixed (that bozo should have been court martialed) the warheads in the Mark 14 were 643 pounds of torpex, which had 150% of the bang of TNT. So a 643 pound torpex warhead equals about 965 pounds of TNT in blastology, more than twice the bang of the original they started the war with. So finding a mod with double the damage is a good start, I made one that's adjustable according to taste;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4380

There are five optional mods, number 3 is 125 + 125 - increases the power and damage radius, which increases the hit point loss and spreads the damaged area for bigger holes. That one feels about right to me, although for the crazies there are two more powerful mods that - well, that they get a bang out of. :/\\x:


KA BOOM!!! Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!! :yeah:

[Sniper297]

Worst trouble with the Silent Hunter series, they never took a hint from the Microprose Silent Service series (1985 and 1990) - in that series you got full credit for sinking a ship, half credit for damaging one that didn't sink. With Silent Hunter if it won't go down all the way you get nothing at all, you might as well have stayed home. You might try the big one (135% blast, 175% hole size), but after laughing about blowing the Yamato into orbit with a single shot a few times most people go back to number 3 since it has the most realistic feel to it. :ping:

[propbeanie]

I think Ubisoft consulted with JANAC when they did the "score" part of the game... :roll: :salute:

[Sniper297]

Yeah, fog of war stuff. Especially with Christie's magnetic exploder (honestly the idiot had two years before we got into the war to study why the Germans and the Brits both realized the whole thing was a flawed theory, didn't he know how to read? Then he compounded the problem by insisting the subs under his command should ignore Lockwood's order to disable the magnetic part and only use the contact trigger for another year!) there were "hits" reported that were actually prematures for the first half of the war. IJN was a victim of that at Midway, they thought they had sunk the YORKTOWN at Coral Sea, then set it on fire at Midway, damage control put the fires out and they "sunk" it again, then an IJN sub got four hits which were actually two because the destroyer USS HAMMANN alongside caught the others. So between Coral Sea and Midway the official IJN score was 2 at Coral Sea (LEXINGTON was actually sunk, they scored YORKTOWN as sunk) and three at Midway (actually YORKTOWN three times) for a total of five.

Anyway the game is what it is, if there's no benefit to damaging them you have to actually sink them.

[NZSharkbait]

Yeah, fog of war stuff. Especially with Christie's magnetic exploder (honestly the idiot had two years before we got into the war to study why the Germans and the Brits both realized the whole thing was a flawed theory, didn't he know how to read? Then he compounded the problem by insisting the subs under his command should ignore Lockwood's order to disable the magnetic part and only use the contact trigger for another year!) there were "hits" reported that were actually prematures for the first half of the war. IJN was a victim of that at Midway, they thought they had sunk the YORKTOWN at Coral Sea, then set it on fire at Midway, damage control put the fires out and they "sunk" it again, then an IJN sub got four hits which were actually two because the destroyer USS HAMMANN alongside caught the others. So between Coral Sea and Midway the official IJN score was 2 at Coral Sea (LEXINGTON was actually sunk, they scored YORKTOWN as sunk) and three at Midway (actually YORKTOWN three times) for a total of five.

Anyway the game is what it is, if there's no benefit to damaging them you have to actually sink them.


The whole sad, sorry saga can be found on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

and is summarized here:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/caa-production/attachments/301/Kauderer_32.pdf?1366918906


I'm just glad that SH4 doesn't have a setting that allows the odd rogue torpedo to make a circular run back to its mother ship...:yeah:

[fireftr18]

I'm just glad that SH4 doesn't have a setting that allows the odd rogue torpedo to make a circular run back to its mother ship...:yeah:

Wanna bet? Hold my bourbon, I'll show you. Or is that a TMO thing?

[propbeanie]

Did someone call my name?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPJTaOJbfso


I was testing something else here, when this occurred. While the sub doesn't sink immediately, and I thought I was home free after we surfaced and started using the deck gun, but no. Within thirty minutes, we were in the dinghy (named propbeanie), with all of the code books and charts destroyed. The Chief even managed to save his comic book collection...

This was "filmed" before the introduction of CapnScurvy's AI Torpedoes, else I would have had another one or two coming at me... You probably can't see it in the video, but there is a periscope sticking out of the water in front of my sub, from an AI Sen Toku, sitting staionary... :salute:

[NZSharkbait]

Wanna bet? Hold my bourbon, I'll show you. Or is that a TMO thing?


:k_confused:But...but, I kept telling my crew and the Admiral back at Pearl that it was a Jap torpedo, fired from a Q-ship disguised as a modern medium composite freighter, that blew the boat sky high. :timeout: Dang, this is gonna be embarrassing. :oops:

[KaleunMarco]

while we are discussing torpedos and torpedo damage, i have a question for which i have been trying to find an answer.


what file contains the true draft of a surface ship? by true draft i mean that if i am using auto-targeting and i line up a ship, lock settings in the periscope into the TDC and the torpedo from where does that depth setting come AND then where is the true draft setting of that ship stored? i am suspecting a disconnect between those two draft numbers for at least one ship and possible another but i do not want to say anything additional until i check it out.
i am only aware of the \data\sea\shipnamefolder\shipname.cfg file.

[s7rikeback]

while we are discussing torpedos and torpedo damage, i have a question for which i have been trying to find an answer.


what file contains the true draft of a surface ship? by true draft i mean that if i am using auto-targeting and i line up a ship, lock settings in the periscope into the TDC and the torpedo from where does that depth setting come AND then where is the true draft setting of that ship stored? i am suspecting a disconnect between those two draft numbers for at least one ship and possible another but i do not want to say anything additional until i check it out.
i am only aware of the \data\sea\shipnamefolder\shipname.cfg file.
\data\sea\shipnamefolder\shipname.sim file
https://i.ibb.co/bHLfLvT/Capture.png (https://ibb.co/GskhkMy)

[KaleunMarco]

\data\sea\shipnamefolder\shipname.sim file

thank you very much.
yes, yes, yes.
the two ships in question are the KMSSAda and the KMSSAden.
ship .cfg .sim

Ada 7.9m 12m

Aden 6.6m 12m


the reason i took notice is that i was consistently firing torpedos that went too deep for these two...but not other ships. when one uses auto-targeting one is at the mercy of stored data for certain settings such as ship draft.
so i can just about conclude that the TDC is taking data from the .sim file but the actual ship draft is taken from the .cfg.
this will be easy to finalize by changing the .sim to match the .cfg (or vice versa) and go out and see if the default auto-target results in a hit.
thanks again, old chap.
:salute::salute::salute:

[jimmbbo]

thank you very much.
the reason i took notice is that i was consistently firing torpedos that went too deep for these two...but not other ships. when one uses auto-targeting one is at the mercy of stored data for certain settings such as ship draft.
so i can just about conclude that the TDC is taking data from the .sim file but the actual ship draft is taken from the .cfg.
:salute::salute::salute:


When autotargeting, I found success setting the individual torps to run at 10 ft, which ensures hits on the merchants...

:up:

[mikesn9]

When autotargeting, I found success setting the individual torps to run at 10 ft, which ensures hits on the merchants...

:up:

I have found success by setting the torpedo depth to be 2 feet less than the keel depth stated in the ID book ("n")

[Sniper297]

"if i am using auto-targeting and i line up a ship, lock settings in the periscope into the TDC and the torpedo from where does that depth setting"

"when one uses auto-targeting one is at the mercy of stored data for certain settings such as ship draft."

No.

On the TDC panel (right side of TDC slide out on the periscope or TBT screens) at the bottom is a slider for POSITION KEEPER and TORPEDO SETTINGS. Clicking that toggles from one to the other, and you set the depth and speed of each torpedo on that screen, then toggle back to the other for targeting. If you haven't been using that with the Mark 14, you've always been firing then at slow speed.

The other major problem is the way gyro angles are programmed - auto targeting sets the gyro angle for what compass direction the torpedo will turn to UNTIL THE FIRE BUTTON IS PRESSED. The moment you hit fire, the gyro spindle disengages and the compass course for the torpedo is set. Why is that a problem? Automatic OPEN OUTER DOORS takes several seconds, so by the time the torpedo actually leaves the tube your firing solution is about five seconds old, and it will miss behind the target nearly every time.

It's VITAL to hit the Q key for every torpedo you plan to fire before you get to the "final bearing and shoot" time, that way the torpedo will come out of the tube immediately, instead of waiting until the outer doors cycle and the gyro setting goes sour. If you're missing a lot, the common denominator is nearly always failing to hit the Q then W to cycle through the tubes and make sure the outer doors are open before firing. That automatic door opening is the most poorly programmed part of the whole game, so don't rely on it.

[Berserker]

I found this torpedo damage decale while roaming around in the forum..Any way to narrow it down by about 1/2 and then use it in sh4 tmo 2.5??Now I cannot upload the picture...What did I do wrong this time???:timeout:

[Sniper297]

Need a better interpretation of the question here, no habla "decale", and narrow what down by 1/2?

[Berserker]

I tried to upload a picture I got from the sim and could not get it to work..Its a decale of torpedo damage as a large hole and I need to know how to reduce its width so it appears as large rip or broken seam...:hmmm:

[Sniper297]

Hmm. Google "decale" and what I get is a French word meaning "off beat".

Having trouble posting pictures too, let's see;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/1_E7b.jpg

That one's from the files, works okay.

Anyway my mod was designed to make bigger holes rather than smaller, you could try doing the opposite with Silent3ditor:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4489

The file to edit would be the torpedo .zon file in the \Data\Library folder. I edited the Torpedoes_US.zon file, if you have 1.5 with the German subs look for whatever the torpedoes?_.zon file for those are named. I don't think you'll get a crack instead of a round hole, but if you double the damage effect and halve the radius it might work to make smaller holes.