French movie action drama on a SSN : Le chant du Loup (The Wolf's Call)

[UglyMowgli]

http://www.pathefilms.com/sites/default/files/styles/fiche_visuel/public/film/affiche/lcdl_aff_600.jpg

A young man has the rare gift of recognizing every sound he hears. On board a French nuclear submarine, everything rests on him, the Golden Ear. Known as infallible, he makes an error that puts the crew in danger of death. He wants to regain the confidence of his comrades but his quest drives them into an even more dramatic situation.
In the world of nuclear deterrence and misinformation, they find themselves trapped in an uncontrollable gear.

The Trailer in french.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzu0eOwFre0

the movie will be released in France in February and in 13 other country in 2019.

[Amiral Crapaud]

A new trailer with a few different scenes from the teaser.
Let's hope it's a better, more intimate experience than Hunter Killer... :salute:


https://youtu.be/MCL1d2rKjd4



A lot of French specialized glossary, seems they had some reliable experts and some help from the French navy, crossing fingers!

[Prolands]

Being currently in France I just watched it and immediately purchased a ticket for another day. It was amazing and I cannot recommend it enough - I pretty much created an account here to promote this movie (although I'm a long time lurker).

It is a highly technical, procedural almost, submarine movie, closest in flavour to Crimson Tide, although much more realistic. Some scenes were shot on actual French submarines and I found myself looking frequently at the setup in the control room. You'll find none of the recycled stock footage in this movie. It's either real subs or pretty good CGI. Great portrayal of how cramped attack subs are and how spacious the boomers look by comparison. I cant wait for it to be on VOD so I can pause and take in the juicy details, it's so rich. It is definitely a much more intimate experience than Hunter Killer, which the previous poster mentioned.

The plot focuses on sonar-man's work and the creators have done a wonderful job portraying the details of the profession and sounds that come along with it. I recommend watching this movie with headphones when it's released cause it's so beautifully done.

Below is a list of submarine warfare concepts that I've encountered - technical list only, no movie plot, but as such it can still be a minor spoiler!

- Boomers and attack subs
- Passive and active sonar (and the displays make sense)
- Turns per knot analysis
- Solution plotting
- Rigging ship for ultraquiet
- Special forces retrieval (and their gear is actually realistic)
- Submarine communications (different kinds)
- Battle stations procedures
- Nuclear launch authorisation procedures
- Navigation instrument's calibration
- Dipping sonar
- Depth charges
- DICASS sonobuoys
- Torpedo wires
In fact the movie is so technical that without previous background it would be impossible to understand a large part of it. They had great experts working on this. Of course it's not without it's flaws and some elements were a bit too "arcady" but it didn't detract from the experience.

To put it bluntly, mandatory watch for anyone registered or lurking on this forum! I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed if you are interested in contemporary submarine warfare!

Was quite surprised to see only two posts in this thread, I guess it must be due to the fact that it's quite difficult to get your hand's on this movie. I sure hope some of you do see it when/if it's on VOD services. Would be great to actually discuss it with someone!

[Aktungbby]

To put it bluntly, mandatory watch for anyone registered or lurking on this forum! Prolands! :Kaleun_Salute: A LITTLE Le chant du Loup http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/flags/flag-of-france.gifTO UNLURK A LURKER??!! I MARVEL AT WHAT BRINGS A OUR LONG TIME 'SILENT RUNNERS' TO THE SURFACE; THANKS FOR POSTING!:arrgh!: OF COURSE THE BEST SUBMARINE MOVIE OF ALL TIME IS STILL MY FAVORITE:O:: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMzUzNzg0OTQwOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDYxMDY2OQ@@._ V1_UX182_CR0,0,182,268_AL_.jpg:arrgh!:

[Onkel Neal]

This looks really good! On Netflix and hopefully soon, Amazon.
https://www.netflix.com/title/81027187

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Gz7Bg07u8&app=desktop

[Prolands]

Oh my very spoily this trailer. I had a lot of fun just watching it without any previous background (but then again i never watch trailers on purpose). Only thing i knew was "its a French movie about modern subs" which is an instawatch anyway for me.

Oh and Aktung thanks for the recommendation, havent seen that one yet. Generally im a bit rusty with WW2 stuff. Feels like theres been a bit of content recently for uboat fans (be it movies, series and games) but theres been a bit of a draught in modern sub genre. Wolf's Call scratched that itch real good :)

[Dakar23]

It's a very interesting and different movie. Very good.

[bsub]

In the movie they have some terms that are not explained.

Perhaps someone can help -

What does TUUM stand for?

What exactly are "magic points"

What is CIRA

Also -

Could an underwater swimmer survive that deep without being crushed by the weight of the water.

[jaop99]

In the movie they have some terms that are not explained.

Perhaps someone can help -

What does TUUM stand for?

What exactly are "magic points"

What is CIRA

Also -

Could an underwater swimmer survive that deep without being crushed by the weight of the water.

TUUM= looks like is the modern version of the old AN/WQC-2, or Gertrude, is an underwater telephone to be used in short distances

I don't know why they need a "magic point" to launch a ballistic missile against a country that is thousand miles away, anyway, could be a place where there is no sensors, or out of satellite coverage, or something similar

I forgot the part when they use CIRA acronysm in the film

The last question is yes but almost impossible, they first equalized the external pressure, then opened the external hatch, the problem is that you can't go up quickly because you have to release the extra air in the lungs and descompress in order to avoid the extra nitrogen and inert gasses in your body, usually you can do that at less than 80 meters with stops at differents depths to avoid decompression sickness

http://www.scubadiverinfo.com/2_divetables.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompression_(diving)

[Prolands]

CIRA stands for "Le centre d'interprétation et de reconnaissance acoustique", so a naval institute devoted to interpretation of acoustic signals :) As such the main character belongs to that unit and the top officer that scolds him after he comes ashore for wrong classification is his boss.

To answer the question about magic points:It was because the boomer's captain (Grandchamp) would do things by the book and "would try to limit civilian casualties". I can only assume their target was of military nature, located next to a civilian centre of population.Oh and TUUM is indeed an underwater telephone as Jaop mentioned, a "digital underwater communication system". It's produced by Thales, you can find the data sheet here (http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/products/135/TUUM-6.pdf).

[bsub]

Thanks for the answers, but I am still confused about magic points.

It seems that the captain didn't want to surface to get an exact reading of where the sub was located - I assume by GPS.

So did he go to a magic point underwater to get a bearing, or is the magic point just a point on a map that would ensure the missile had range to reach the target. I did notice that he did a scan of the ocean floor. Could you correlate that to a bearing.

[bsub]

Did some more research - it used hydrographics - a 3d scan of ocean floor and then matched results with known scan to get exact bearing - like ship ID books for the ocean floor.

Thanks again for the help.

[gumbeauregard]

I enjoyed this movie for its portrayal of the submarine and its crew.

The plot is pretty silly with some huge holes but all is forgiven for the excellent job with the crew and submarine interior scenes.

Magic points are an interesting idea. I am not sure how a boomer could know its position over sea floor terrain without using an active sensor to "look"

But then the idea that the nuclear missiles need to be launched from a precisely known position in order to be more accurate to prevent civilian casualties is a bit silly on the face of it.

The entire premise of nuclear deterrence is retaliatory strikes against the civilian population of the opponent.

[nikimcbee]

It's a very interesting and different movie. Very good.

Ditto. Just watched it. Very good story, totally different.

[US IRON]

RE
< Magic points are an interesting idea. I am not sure how a boomer could know its position over sea floor terrain without using an active sensor to "look">

I know zero about real world submarine navigation and I suppose it is classified, but Inertial Navigation Systems INS have been around for decades. It was standard on the 747 and other airliners before Satellite GPS. Using sensitive gyroscopes and acceleromotors (force sensors) which calculate distances, velocities and accelerations a submarine would know its position fairly accurately without need of any external references, except some initialisation point when setting the system initially and checking its accuracy. On aircraft the initialisation point on startup is the gate which is a known coordinate. Maybe they utilise magnetic fields as well?

I expect all submarines would have back-up systems like this to cross-check with other more accurate systems. I have no-idea what a magic point is.

[UglyMowgli]

RE
< Magic points are an interesting idea. I am not sure how a boomer could know its position over sea floor terrain without using an active sensor to "look">

I know zero about real world submarine navigation and I suppose it is classified, but Inertial Navigation Systems INS have been around for decades. It was standard on the 747 and other airliners before Satellite GPS. Using sensitive gyroscopes and acceleromotors (force sensors) which calculate distances, velocities and accelerations a submarine would know its position fairly accurately without need of any external references, except some initialisation point when setting the system initially and checking its accuracy. On aircraft the initialisation point on startup is the gate which is a known coordinate. Maybe they utilise magnetic fields as well?

I expect all submarines would have back-up systems like this to cross-check with other more accurate systems. I have no-idea what a magic point is.




An INS drift after some time even the laser one, what is good for an airliner flying for few hours is not for a sub navigating under the sea for months. they need to re-calibrate their position. there is few methods
- GPS but need to have a signal (and during a war, well don't count on it)
- Old sextant method, need time and like the GPS method need to be on periscope depth - too dangerous during a war/crisis


- Using a distinctive seafloor topography (a big rock in the middle of a flat) or a shipwreck whose exact location is well known. This is the magic point. And to find it, there is few systems like a XXXXX or a XXXXX - sorry this is classified :)


And since nobody talk about, the title of the movie Wolf call refer to the sound of an active low frequency sonar using modulation to bypass the target distance ambiguity. This sound is like a wolf howling.

[gumbeauregard]

RE
< Magic points are an interesting idea. I am not sure how a boomer could know its position over sea floor terrain without using an active sensor to "look">

I know zero about real world submarine navigation and I suppose it is classified, but Inertial Navigation Systems INS have been around for decades. It was standard on the 747 and other airliners before Satellite GPS. Using sensitive gyroscopes and acceleromotors (force sensors) which calculate distances, velocities and accelerations a submarine would know its position fairly accurately without need of any external references, except some initialisation point when setting the system initially and checking its accuracy. On aircraft the initialisation point on startup is the gate which is a known coordinate. Maybe they utilise magnetic fields as well?

I expect all submarines would have back-up systems like this to cross-check with other more accurate systems. I have no-idea what a magic point is.

I have many ocean crossings with INS as a secondary navigation system and over the few hours of a jet crossing the error is quite large. Usually 1-3 miles or so for the trip over the North Atlantic. Age and condition of the system also affect this drift.

Here are some articles I found on Gravity Anomaly Aided Inertial Navigation System (GAINS), which is pretty interesting stuff.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5579750/

https://www.navysbir.com/n09_1/N091-092.htm

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8602/e0ad351531876136cc3193ebac57b0712f25.pdf

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbot.2019.00019/full

[Prolands]

But then the idea that the nuclear missiles need to be launched from a precisely known position in order to be more accurate to prevent civilian casualties is a bit silly on the face of it.

The entire premise of nuclear deterrence is retaliatory strikes against the civilian population of the opponent.
The movie does not reveal the details of French president's chosen retaliatory option, but my guess is that he had chosen a limited retaliatory strike against a military target. You will notice that when the orders to launch arrive and are plugged into the weapons console only one missile gets activated and only one vertical tube opens.

Its not entirely unrealistic. Many WW3 scenarios assume an escalating nuclear exchange, rather than full on all-missile bombardment. Starting from few tactical nukes, escalating into greater payloads and quantities.

And since the chosen target was military it would make sense to want to limit casualties. Captain's priviledge i guess.

[ijozic]

The plot is pretty silly with some huge holes but all is forgiven for the excellent job with the crew and submarine interior scenes.

Yeah, I was disappointed in the end given the apparently good production values. Weak script, shallow characters, average actors at best. The script seems to be quite inspired by Crimson Tide (plus the sound guy seems to be inspired by Jones from Red October).

By far the worst moment is when they decide to shoot down that helicopter with some recoilless launcher they shouldn't have in the first place. They actually miss it, but somehow the projectile still gets activated and damages the helicopter which instead of crashing down, explodes in mid-air for no good reason.

It's a shame as it seems like there were enough ingredients there for a much better movie.

[US IRON]

Many thanks beauregard for the links on INS.

I can see now that variable gravity is a problem. Theoretically, without that problem, I would think that there should be little limit to their accuracy.

I will definitely read up on these links.

[Rufus Shinra]

The movie isn't perfect (it ain't called Red October), but still really enjoyable overall IMO, offering a decent story centered on the sonar analyst, the iconic figure of submarine warfare who's too often ignored in movies (with the exception, once again, of Red October, but McTiernan's movie is perfect anyway, so it should go without saying).

The MN (Marine Nationale - French Navy) did contribute a lot to the production, to the point that the actors and the set managers could go inside both classes of submarines showed, the Rubis SSN and Triomphant SSBN and got a dive in the SSN. This allowed the producers to actually build a 1:1 model of the SSN command center for the scenes there (minus stuff that appeared in pictures the MN deleted from the cameras once they left the boat, of course). SSN COs were working alongside the producers, and in several scenes of the movie, numerous extras were... actual French submarine crew members playing their own roles inside their boat.

Not without weaknesses, of course, the helicopter scene being a bit, well, too much (though at least, the dialogue indicates the origin of that PzF 3, which the CO, Grandchamp, says was brought by the special forces and left on-board when they were deployed - which, BTW, is why the crew realizes only too late the RPG has a safety lock). Also a particularly annoying mistake, which has zero excuse, is the ABM intercept attempt, where the video shows... an Exocet AShM being fired from its canister. It wouldn't have cost anything more to put the proper stock video of an Aster 30 SAM being fired from the VLS of the ship (the Aster 30B1NT will have a MRBM intercept capability, which wouldn't be reliable in any way to intercept a SLBM, but it'd be believable that they'd try anyway, nothing to lose at that point). Other mistake that led to snarky comments by French viewers is during the Crimson Tide hommage scene, when each crew enters their boat, the SSN new captain does a US-style salute rather than a French one (which looks like the British, you can see it properly done in other scenes).

In terms of procedures, though, it's a really enjoyable watch, particularly on such details as the crew getting their headcaps, shrapnel glasses and gloves when shifting to battle stations (if you google pictures from the French ships and boats, you'll see that this is SOP there) as well as duct taping the old CRT screens to limit the possibility of broken glass flying around after a near miss.


Favourite quote, for me? "Dans la mort, il n'y a que la victoire qui est belle."//"In death, only victory is beautiful." from ALFOST.


For curious people, the director of the movie (it's his very first movie, BTW) wrote another one a few years ago, which is really good albeit in an entirely different context, called The French Minister. It's an autobiographical movie about his time under the French Foreign Affairs Minister in the 2002-2003 era, when he was a young top-level civil servant under a kinda eccentric Minister (de Villepin could be weird for his underlings IRL apparently), and his job was to write the speeches.

And of course, came the small thing known as the 2003 Iraq War, the movie showing you in a pretty amusing way the lead-up to the war from the French PoV, all the way until de Villepin's famous speech at the UN to oppose the war.

[johan_d]

very good movie, just watched it.
better then the hollywood crap, much better.:yeah:

[HalfLifeExpert]

I saw it a couple days ago, and it was pretty good. Easily the best submarine film since Hunt For Red October.

Couldn't help but be annoyed though at the inconsistent depictions of the mystery Russian sub. First they portray it as a Delta type SSBN, then in the archives it is portrayed as a Victor III SSN, then when it makes it's key move in the story, it's back to an SSBN.

For all the work they did into getting a lot of things right, it blows my mind that such a relatively simple thing got done so badly.

[Rufus Shinra]

Yep, that and a few other easily-avoided mistakes are pretty jarring compared to the attention to detail shown in the rest of the movie.

[Therealmouss]

In the movie they have some terms that are not explained.

Perhaps someone can help -

What does TUUM stand for?

This is the french underwater digital telephone system ( built by thales)

What exactly are "magic points"

there are just underwater navigation point, when you navigate underwater you use inertial navigation, the longer you stay below the bigger the innacurracy is, and when you launch a SLBM you need to know where you are exactly, to give you the smallest CEP on impact




What is CIRA

centre d'interprétation et de reconnaissance acoustique (CIRA)
thats where we store all accoustic signatures of all the ships, pretty secured place....

Also -

Could an underwater swimmer survive that deep without being crushed by the weight of the water.

No clue never tried :-)



The Film itself is pretty good, a few ridiculous scene ( RPG against an helicopter...) but overall good acting and good scenario

not as good as red october , but way better than hunter killer :-)

thib

[Aktungbby]

Therealmauss!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Onkel Neal]

‘The Wolf’s Call’: French Submarine Flick Provokes Thought On Undersea Warfare And Nuclear Deterrence
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2019/10/31/the-wolfs-call-french-submarine-flick-provokes-thought-on-undersea-warfare-and-nuclear-deterrence/#3802361c2f47)

French military thriller The Wolf’s Call (or Le Chant du loup) pulls off a difficult trick: it invites the viewers to think about how complicated systems such as submarines armed with nuclear missiles are supposed to work in a crisis, while making you empathize with characters entangled in that system’s remorseless logic and strict protocols.

...the movie establishes that France is deploying troops in response to a Russian seizure of the Finnish Aland Islands, the de-militarized site of past territorial disputes but not currently a source of tension.


The film’s treatment of ‘going stealth’ may seem exaggerated, but there’s real-world evidence it’s not: in 2009, the French SSBN Triomphant collided underwater with the British nuclear-armed submarine Vanguard, with neither detecting the presence of the other prior to impact.


https://youtu.be/a9Gz7Bg07u8?t=32

[Kapitan]

it looks good for a fictional action film, but the French don't exactly have the best SSN's or SSBN's i've been on the Rubis and to say it was a disappointment was an understatement.

A friend of mine did a FOST on the Perle (Rubis class) in his words the only good thing about the boat was the wine.

[Friede Rösing]

I saw this film several month ago, i like it, it's interesting, it's good to spend a evening day of autumn in front of tv

[swellfella]

it looks good for a fictional action film, but the French don't exactly have the best...

C'mon...don't tell me you actually let reality get in the way of good sub yarn...:k_confused:

Damn good flick, I thought...particularly since I cranked it up knowing only that somehow a sub was in the mix. Gotta say I was most pleasantly surprised. Characters were 3 D, no cardboard cut-outs, you felt them feel..Certainly this is gonna list in my top 10 or so sub dramas, one you can watch again even tho you know how it plays out...long as you suspend that French subs ain't all that :03:

[pclaurent]

it looks good for a fictional action film, but the French don't exactly have the best SSN's or SSBN's i've been on the Rubis and to say it was a disappointment was an understatement.

A friend of mine did a FOST on the Perle (Rubis class) in his words the only good thing about the boat was the wine.

Ruby submarines are more than 30 years old. Even if they are not the best performing SSNs today, I'll remind you that this is one ot them which, during a NATO exercise, virtually sank a US aircraft carrier and its escort. Contrary to what you seem to insinuate, the French know how to make excellent submarines that export well (Scorpene and Barracuda in particular, cf. Australian contract) and have just launched a new generation of SSN that has nothing to envy to US submarines.

[Kapitan]

Granted that the Rubis is 30+ years old however we have boats in the UK of similar vintage and the US has older boats, to date I’ve been on 4 688’s 2 trafalgars 1 Rubis and many others around our NATO countries.

I was an observer to a logistics exercise on the Rubis back in 2017 she did not perform as expected but there was admittedly several reasons for that which was beyond her crews control, however that aside she still failed to meet NATO standard.

A good friend of mine who worked for over 22 years on submarines undertook a FOST on-board the Perle he was a sonar and acoustic specialist, he noted the submarines capability left a lot to be desired

The Scorpene submarines are a good boat and the reason they are an export success is due in part to the price tag and it was simply pretty much for this reason the Australian government signed up theirs own press now states the government regrets that decision.

The new suffren which is being tested has a big gap in its capabilities something the USN and UK explored back in the 80’s that’s non acoustic detection the French opted out of a collaboration with the RN and USN and thus lacks that technology
Suffren also lacks long range land attack capability and focuses more on close encounters using Exocet and torpedos.

While Exocet is a good missile in today’s theatres it is vulnerable and now easily intercept able

[UglyMowgli]

Ruby submarines are more than 30 years old. Even if they are not the best performing SSNs today, I'll remind you that this is one ot them which, during a NATO exercise, virtually sank a US aircraft carrier and its escort. Contrary to what you seem to insinuate, the French know how to make excellent submarines that export well (Scorpene and Barracuda in particular, cf. Australian contract) and have just launched a new generation of SSN that has nothing to envy to US submarines.
Amethyst class are still the smallest SSN in the world, small mean less crew, less equipment so they can't be compared to the mighty UK or US SSN.



And never expect a Brit to say something good about French Navy :)

"It was late in the evening when Clancy decided to take advantage of the amazing array of experience around the dinner table – five British submarine officers and one American – by outlining his ideas for a new book. As Littlejohns relates, some aspects caused horror.

‘According to Clancy, chapter one of the new book sees the Soviet cruiser Kirov sunk by a French SSN. Six brother submariners are aghast and speak as one against this preposterous idea. They even suggest that if the French boat gets the glory then no Brit will buy the book. In 1986, Clancy’s next huge bestseller, Red Storm Rising, is published, in which a Norwegian diesel boat sinks the Kirov. Join the dots!"

[Rufus Shinra]

Suffren also lacks long range land attack capability and focuses more on close encounters using Exocet and torpedos.
What. Just FYI, the Suffren can fire land-attack cruise missiles (MdCN - EDIT: you might have been thinking about the Rubis/Amethyste boats, which are indeed limited to torpedo/Exocet/mine warfare). As for detection, it's not particularly lacking from what I've seen, except for one thing, which is an internal towed array (the French tend to fix theirs directly to the hull after departure and cannot get it back inside the boat afterwards). It'll be also quite interesting to see what tactics will be developped against the F-21/Black Shark torpedoes: a fully electric silent torpedo with greater range than the ADCAP can be quite a problem for opponents.

In any case, the French submarine doctrine is a bit different from the British or US, in that SSBN have the priority in technology and funding, which is why the Triomphant class is massively more advanced and upgraded than the Rubis and was built before the Suffren. Underestimating Frog tech is something you only do long enough to regret, as the RN experienced: after all, we know that a British SSBN couldn't notice a French one (and vice-versa) in spitting range until the funniest knock-knock joke ever happened. ;-)

[Kapitan]

Amethyst class are still the smallest SSN in the world, small mean less crew, less equipment so they can't be compared to the mighty UK or US SSN.



And never expect a Brit to say something good about French Navy :)

"It was late in the evening when Clancy decided to take advantage of the amazing array of experience around the dinner table – five British submarine officers and one American – by outlining his ideas for a new book. As Littlejohns relates, some aspects caused horror.

‘According to Clancy, chapter one of the new book sees the Soviet cruiser Kirov sunk by a French SSN. Six brother submariners are aghast and speak as one against this preposterous idea. They even suggest that if the French boat gets the glory then no Brit will buy the book. In 1986, Clancy’s next huge bestseller, Red Storm Rising, is published, in which a Norwegian diesel boat sinks the Kirov. Join the dots!"


First off I'm not against the French per say but i do have my apprehensions about them, i have worked with them, i have seen and used their kit, i have been on their submarines and ships many times over the years, its not personal its just they lack in key areas.

Secondly you cannot state smaller boat means a smaller crew the Rubis which is the smallest SSN in the world (i have been on the Rubis) has a crew of 70 men roughly, while the much larger Russian Akulas (Project 971) have a crew of just 53-60 men.

The Rubis lacks a lot of capability and is technically obsolete (it was 10 years ago) the Suffren brings the level back up however again it isn't even touching the top tier navies like it should or could.

Suffren while has anti submarine and anti ship capability it relies heavily on acoustic acquisition of a target vessel, we have moved on since then in fact we moved on back in the 80's, both the USN and RN have sensors and systems in place for non acoustic acquisition, the RN had this in the 80's and offered to collaborate with the Marine Nationale on its development, the French declined.

As for you will never hear a Brit say anything good about the French navy, that's not true i do think they got one platform right in a way, despite its cost over runs and also its lack of size the fact the Marine National stuck with a CATOBAR carrier has to be applauded it is something i hoped the UK would do with the new QE but they didn't and this i see as a missed opportunity.

Just FYI, the Suffren can fire land-attack cruise missiles (MdCN - EDIT: you might have been thinking about the Rubis/Amethyste boats, which are indeed limited to torpedo/Exocet/mine warfare)

Yes i was thinking that my mistake on that part

It'll be also quite interesting to see what tactics will be developed against the F-21/Black Shark torpedoes: a fully electric silent torpedo with greater range than the ADCAP can be quite a problem for opponents.

I cannot comment on specifics or give specific details, but i can say the F21 has a long way to go before it out ranges a MK48 ADCAP MOD-7, however its roughly en par with Spearfish current block 2.

In any case, the French submarine doctrine is a bit different from the British or US, in that SSBN have the priority in technology and funding

They do have a different doctrine based upon the French foreign policy but ultimately the strategy and operations remain similar to the UK and USN, they do operate a CSG and ARG within their fleet and have the escorts to do deploy a single CSG /ARG or a mixed CSAG.

The main countries that build SSN and SSBN such as Russia, China, UK, USA all cross over so you will find the same systems in a 688 as you will in the Ohio, and you will find the same systems in a Vanguard as you will in a Trafalgar (I have been on the 688 Trafalgar and Vanguards but not Ohio's) this technology cross over saves money, is easier to maintain, easier to upgrade, as well as a plethora of other reasons.

France spends a lot only on its SSBN fleet and that because it uses a 3 sub fleet system, it has to focus its spending in 3 areas not just 2, they still deploy SSK's as force multipliers the RN and USN do not this free's up money to invest in high end SSN's catch is you don't get many for your money.

Underestimating Frog tech is something you only do long enough to regret, as the RN experienced: after all, we know that a British SSBN couldn't notice a French one (and vice-versa) in spitting range until the funniest knock-knock joke ever happened. ;-)

The French SSBN and British SSBN knock for knock has many factors to it, while the French do have very good SSBN's there's a reason for it, a lot of technology is shared between the UK USA and France, and the defense industries are co owned il explain that part in my next bit, but operationally the French have a very good boat and one that is en par to Vanguard and id say superior to the Ohio.


Underestimating Frog tech is something you only do long enough to regret, as the RN experienced: after all, we know that a British SSBN couldn't notice a French one (and vice-versa) in spitting range until the funniest knock-knock joke ever happened. ;-)

French technology comes about from a multitude of sources and its due in no small part to the co operation of working with other European and American partners, point in case here is the MBDA Exocet if you look up the B in that acronym you find it stands for BAe Systems.

Of course you refer to the 1982 conflict with Argentina when your citing your comment and at that specific period the Exocet was made by aérospatiale of which there's limited British involvement with the missile except with the guidance and navigation systems which they build under licence from Marconi.

What that taught us in 82 was the missile was great but it had several weaknesses, for a start it was too short range the current Harpoon flew much longer distances, its warhead couldn't sink a ship (none of the ships they hit sank from the missile hit and yes that includes Sheffield she was scuttled 3 days later as was Atlantic conveyor)

There were several reasons why the Exocet did all the Damage.

1) Sheffield was hit while making a satellite call and couldn't have her RADAR's on while doing so.

2) The cost cutting in the UK defense budget bought a low end AAW DDG instead of the high end type 82.

3) The type 42 had no point defense weapons, or weapons capable of engaging short range (this is why we coupled a type 22 with type 42 later on)

4) The conveyor was hit after two vessels (i forget which two) successfully decoyed the missile and conveyor couldn't put up any form of defense by herself

5) The USS Stark incident showed that using low end systems doesn't work against these missiles, two hits on stark she didn't sink or even mission kill, but the crew were not at war and didn't consider themselves targets either.

Moving on forward to today the French rely heavily on the short range sub sonic Exocet currently the UK and USA are now moving away from subsonic anti ship missiles, now were seeing the development of LRASM for example a supersonic long range anti ship missile.

Exocet in today's theaters against a high end AAW ASuW platform such as a Burke, Type 45, Horizon class would have a very tough time getting through if it could at all, so would the launching platform especially it if was an air asset doing the launching, having worked with the Type 45 program since 2012 and been to see what they can do Exocet and any air platform wishing to do harm were dead long before it ever came into range and that's at sea level.

Now whats the follow on from this? well now were starting to realize the way forward is high end supersonic / hypersonic long range missiles the type of missiles the Russians have been deploying against us since the 1960's, and it is them we are taking the lead from slightly, while they are taking some lead from us too.

Take a look at the difference in size between the P700 and P800 missiles the Russians are going the same way were going.

There is a project right now in France working with the UK to develop a missile of similar capabilities so lets watch this space.

[Rufus Shinra]

France spends a lot only on its SSBN fleet and that because it uses a 3 sub fleet system, it has to focus its spending in 3 areas not just 2, they still deploy SSK's as force multipliers the RN and USN do not this free's up money to invest in high end SSN's catch is you don't get many for your money.Sorry, but what.


France hasn't used SSK for decades, FYI. One of its private companies designs some, but that's all, the military budget hasn't spend money on developping these for more than 50 years (the last French SSK class, Agosta, was commissionned in the Seventies). If you're curious, the Royal Navy built SSK after the French stopped doing so (the Upholder class was commissionned in the Eighties).
I cannot comment on specifics or give specific details, but i can say the F21 has a long way to go before it out ranges a MK48 ADCAP MOD-7, however its roughly en par with Spearfish current block 2.Maybe, though from what I've seen, it appears the new batteries have higher energy density than the Otto fuel used in the ADCAP, which is quite interesting, particularly as batteries allow much better modulation of the speed.
The French SSBN and British SSBN knock for knock has many factors to it, while the French do have very good SSBN's there's a reason for it, a lot of technology is shared between the UK USA and France, and the defense industries are co owned il explain that part in my next bit, but operationally the French have a very good boat and one that is en par to Vanguard and id say superior to the Ohio.


French technology comes about from a multitude of sources and its due in no small part to the co operation of working with other European and American partners, point in case here is the MBDA Exocet if you look up the B in that acronym you find it stands for BAe Systems.When it comes to strategic deterrence, though, France has a pretty clear doctrine of not getting anything foreign for the tech. Coopertion, yes, but the tech itself has to be national (the division of MBDA doing the M51 is quite separated from the rest, IIRC, or how nuclear-capable jets are ITAR-free).


I honestly and wholeheartedly mean no disrespect as you appear to have travelled more and met a lot more people related to the Silent Service than I did, but it seems that the French arm could be a blind spot. As another poster reminded, there is a bit of a Cold War legacy of friendly (or not so friendly, depending on the people) institutional Francophobia among NATO partners (and, TBH, from anyone who met the wonderful, friendly and highly agreeable de Gaulle, a man who never, ever, eveeeeeer pissed any ally of his) which might create some bias when it comes to the perceived effectiveness of things.


This report from RAND is about aviation rather than boats, but it is pretty interesting in that it highlights the differences in mindset for military procurement and how there can be a large discrepancy between funding and results in some cases (explaining in hindsight why the Typhoon, with much more funding, got such a ranking with the Swiss evaluation): https://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R1148.html


Though I'm not going to pretend the Rubis/Amethyste are anywhere close to a LA, for example. Their main advantage was to exist, which is already something quite useful in itself.

[ikalugin]

both the USN and RN have sensors and systems in place for non acoustic acquisitionWere they deployed? I am aware of RN testing those systems on T-boats but I havent seen signs of their mass deployement.

As to the Baracuda class SSN - it seems to be a minimalistic SSN to me. And while it does have some stand off capability - does it have trully long range AShMs (>300km), LAMs (>2000km)? Or the means to cue and guide them onto targets?

What I do find strange about Baracuda is the use of the cylindrical bow.

[Rufus Shinra]

Were they deployed? I am aware of RN testing those systems on T-boats but I havent seen signs of their mass deployement.

As to the Baracuda class SSN - it seems to be a minimalistic SSN to me. And while it does have some stand off capability - does it have trully long range AShMs (>300km), LAMs (>2000km)? Or the means to cue and guide them onto targets?

What I do find strange about Baracuda is the use of the cylindrical bow.
The USN and RN boats don't have very long range AShM, the TASM was retired some time ago and LRASM doesn't have, AFAIK, a sub-launched version (the sub-launched Harpoon goes 140 km, IIRC). As for the range of the LAM, yes, MdCN's lower than the most recent TLAM's (the US currently makes better disposable turbojets). In terms of off-board communication, they seem to be roughly equivalent to other NATO SSN.


They're smaller, so they carry less weapons (but then, the French doctrine isn't about fighting massive naval wars, being able to whack on the head anyone who looks at overseas territories is enough, as well as being a credible threat for larger navies), but they seem highly optimized for coastal warfare, in good part due to their hybrid propulsion system (which the US tried a few decades ago, abandonned due to low efficiency with the tech then and appear to plan for their next SSBN class), small size and the dedicated equipment (dry dock shelter, for example). Won't be the most armed or fastest oceanic boat, but still stealthy and armed enough to not be overlooked, and potentially terrifying in coastal waters.



PS: so many acronyms... X_X

[Kapitan]

Sorry, but what.


France hasn't used SSK for decades, FYI. One of its private companies designs some, but that's all, the military budget hasn't spend money on developping these for more than 50 years (the last French SSK class, Agosta, was commissionned in the Seventies). If you're curious, the Royal Navy built SSK after the French stopped doing so (the Upholder class was commissionned in the Eighties).
Maybe, though from what I've seen, it appears the new batteries have higher energy density than the Otto fuel used in the ADCAP, which is quite interesting, particularly as batteries allow much better modulation of the speed.
When it comes to strategic deterrence, though, France has a pretty clear doctrine of not getting anything foreign for the tech. Coopertion, yes, but the tech itself has to be national (the division of MBDA doing the M51 is quite separated from the rest, IIRC, or how nuclear-capable jets are ITAR-free).


I honestly and wholeheartedly mean no disrespect as you appear to have travelled more and met a lot more people related to the Silent Service than I did, but it seems that the French arm could be a blind spot. As another poster reminded, there is a bit of a Cold War legacy of friendly (or not so friendly, depending on the people) institutional Francophobia among NATO partners (and, TBH, from anyone who met the wonderful, friendly and highly agreeable de Gaulle, a man who never, ever, eveeeeeer pissed any ally of his) which might create some bias when it comes to the perceived effectiveness of things.


This report from RAND is about aviation rather than boats, but it is pretty interesting in that it highlights the differences in mindset for military procurement and how there can be a large discrepancy between funding and results in some cases (explaining in hindsight why the Typhoon, with much more funding, got such a ranking with the Swiss evaluation): https://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R1148.html


Though I'm not going to pretend the Rubis/Amethyste are anywhere close to a LA, for example. Their main advantage was to exist, which is already something quite useful in itself.


So this is what i mean by a three 3 sub fleet system; they have designs for SSK SSN and SSBN, yes i'm aware they have re introduced this and its not a bad reason, while i fully accept they will not use SSK's in their own fleet it does initially swallow a lot of the defense budget initially, but that's more for R&D than anything else, which means they have to cut the R&D budget on the SSN's.
However i support their reasons in this because it does make a good export product which over time will recoup the investment made initially but that's over the longer term. (France seems to be playing long term game while RN is short term

The Upholders you mention were meant to replace the Oberons but doctrine change the end of the cold war and budget cuts meant that of the 12 planned only 4 were built and they themselves had short lives ending up with Canada, SSK's do not currently have a place in the RN Doctrine and we decided to pour in the money which would have been spent on R&D in developing these boats plus all other added costs into a single SSN program.

In terms of private companies gaining R&D funding through a defense budget to develop platforms is what happens, so DCNS would not have developed the Scorpene 100% off its own back using its own funding simply because it doesn't have the financial means to do so, what they tend to do and BAe / LM / Boeing does this a lot as well, is to approach the defense ministers and they end up getting allocated a % of the defense budget for R&D on the understanding any breakthrough technology or useful technology can be bought at a cheaper rate in the future, and also any sales of hardware or software a % of that sale goes back to the budget, almost like a bank loan if you will.

A lot of French tech is home grown but a lot of french contractors are part owned by other foreign contractors so the flow of foreign items too and fro is common place.
The missiles are completely french designed and built but i'm talking component parts ie the non sensitive stuff.

Yes i guess there is a lot of Francophobia, to be totally honest i loathed working with them, however they do have some good assets its just their mindset and they don't pay bills.

Were they deployed? I am aware of RN testing those systems on T-boats but I havent seen signs of their mass deployment.

Yes they are deployed, whats more they have been deployed on every boat since the 80's the first such boat to use the tech was a Swiftsure class HMS Spartan i believe (i may be wrong but i'm certain it was a S boat)

The USN and RN boats don't have very long range AShM, the TASM was retired some time ago and LRASM doesn't have, AFAIK, a sub-launched version (the sub-launched Harpoon goes 140 km, IIRC). As for the range of the LAM, yes, MdCN's lower than the most recent TLAM's (the US currently makes better disposable turbojets). In terms of off-board communication, they seem to be roughly equivalent to other NATO SSN

The USN will actually reintroduced TASM back into the fleet in 2021 with the block V the LRASM is in testing and likely will go for sub launched trials around 2023.

The RN currently does not deploy any AShM we do not currently deploy Harpoon in the submarine fleet (we can and also Exocet if required but we don't).


Just a FYI i may sometimes not be clear on my point and i may jump from era to era without realizing it, so if your confused just let me know i will try and straighten it out :haha:

[ikalugin]

Yes they are deployed, whats more they have been deployed on every boat since the 80's the first such boat to use the tech was a Swiftsure class HMS Spartan i believe (i may be wrong but i'm certain it was a S boat)
Is there something I can read on this?

As this is the first time I see anyone mentioning mass deployement of such systems.

[Rufus Shinra]

So this is what i mean by a three 3 sub fleet system; they have designs for SSK SSN and SSBN, yes i'm aware they have re introduced this and its not a bad reason, while i fully accept they will not use SSK's in their own fleet it does initially swallow a lot of the defense budget initially, but that's more for R&D than anything else, which means they have to cut the R&D budget on the SSN's.I'm not sure it swallows that much of the SSN budget, if only because the development and procurement cycles for submarines are longer in France than in UK or US, so the SSN gets the experience from the SSK. When you consider both the size and the hybrid propulsion system of the Suffren, for example, it's quite clear it benefitted a lot from the Scorpene know-how, and vice-versa for the Barracuda Shortfin.

Unlike most if not all other countries, our SSK and SSN are roughly the same size (hell, Rubis had a smaller displacement than Surcouf...), which makes a lot of the work for one usable in the other. Which, of course, also means that our SSN are less effective oceanic fleet units compared to dedicated ones (I was astonished at the small size of the SSBN I visited, it 's barely longer than a US SSN).

In terms of private companies gaining R&D funding through a defense budget to develop platforms is what happens, so DCNS would not have developed the Scorpene 100% off its own back using its own funding simply because it doesn't have the financial means to do so, what they tend to do and BAe / LM / Boeing does this a lot as well, is to approach the defense ministers and they end up getting allocated a % of the defense budget for R&D on the understanding any breakthrough technology or useful technology can be bought at a cheaper rate in the future, and also any sales of hardware or software a % of that sale goes back to the budget, almost like a bank loan if you will.
It might not be the same way exactly here. For example, DCNS built the demonstrator for the Gowind stealth corvette on its own money and even allowed the MN to have a go at it even though they weren't interested in buying it, knowing there would be a number of foreign customers for such a class. The MN loved having a lease on an advanced patrol ship for free, DCNS got to say their ship was sailor-tested and approved, and ended up selling almost two dozen to foreign customers.

I don't know how the budget goes for the SSK R&D, but it could be similar.
Yes i guess there is a lot of Francophobia, to be totally honest i loathed working with them, however they do have some good assets its just their mindset and they don't pay bills.Our mindset is very, very different from the Anglo one, for sure. The social status and the role of the engineer are pretty different compared to UK or US, and then there's how wit and sarcasm are perceived (it's an art here, open jousts being a wonderful sport the same way as the British art of understatement is deeply appreciated on your side of the pond and how both fly above US' head like a SR-71 or even offend them in our case despite how friendly it is from our POV), or the relation to the law (in the US, the written text is absolute, definitive and the point of all attentions, while in France, it's a lot more fluid, with the intent being above the letter a lot more often, as well as interpersonal relationships going above the text itself, all the way to Constitutional debates - the way we consider our Constitution would give aneurysm to most law scholars in the US).
The USN will actually reintroduced TASM back into the fleet in 2021 with the block V the LRASM is in testing and likely will go for sub launched trials around 2023.Heh, not that sure about the validity of very long range subsonic AShM. It requires uninterrupted communications for one hour or so, which is asking a lot from the opponent.

[ikalugin]

Is Perseus dead by the way?

[UglyMowgli]

Perseus was just a theoretical research aimed to define the needs for the UK/French FC/ASW missile joint program.
UK want a stealth missile and French a fast one (between Mach 5 to Mach +7).

The FC/ASW final specs should be defined Q2/2020.

[Kapitan]

I'm not sure it swallows that much of the SSN budget, if only because the development and procurement cycles for submarines are longer in France than in UK or US, so the SSN gets the experience from the SSK. When you consider both the size and the hybrid propulsion system of the Suffren, for example, it's quite clear it benefitted a lot from the Scorpene know-how, and vice-versa for the Barracuda Shortfin.

Unlike most if not all other countries, our SSK and SSN are roughly the same size (hell, Rubis had a smaller displacement than Surcouf...), which makes a lot of the work for one usable in the other. Which, of course, also means that our SSN are less effective oceanic fleet units compared to dedicated ones (I was astonished at the small size of the SSBN I visited, it 's barely longer than a US SSN).


It might not be the same way exactly here. For example, DCNS built the demonstrator for the Gowind stealth corvette on its own money and even allowed the MN to have a go at it even though they weren't interested in buying it, knowing there would be a number of foreign customers for such a class. The MN loved having a lease on an advanced patrol ship for free, DCNS got to say their ship was sailor-tested and approved, and ended up selling almost two dozen to foreign customers.

I don't know how the budget goes for the SSK R&D, but it could be similar.
Our mindset is very, very different from the Anglo one, for sure. The social status and the role of the engineer are pretty different compared to UK or US, and then there's how wit and sarcasm are perceived (it's an art here, open jousts being a wonderful sport the same way as the British art of understatement is deeply appreciated on your side of the pond and how both fly above US' head like a SR-71 or even offend them in our case despite how friendly it is from our POV), or the relation to the law (in the US, the written text is absolute, definitive and the point of all attentions, while in France, it's a lot more fluid, with the intent being above the letter a lot more often, as well as interpersonal relationships going above the text itself, all the way to Constitutional debates - the way we consider our Constitution would give aneurysm to most law scholars in the US).
Heh, not that sure about the validity of very long range subsonic AShM. It requires uninterrupted communications for one hour or so, which is asking a lot from the opponent.


Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.

I have done a part of FOST on the Rubis class they do have a lot of short comings they failed my section of FOST but we did kind of expect that because we were trailing something new and it didn't work (not the crew or boats fault)

The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.

The lease thing with the Gowind that is something similar to what BAe did with some OPVs its a good way to do it but it comes with issues.

I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK

I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.

Think i covered all your points :haha:

[Rufus Shinra]

Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.
It's not exactly a switch, except maybe for the Barracuda Shortfin sold to Australia, which is extremely close to the Suffren, but from what I understand from the Suffren's propulsion system, SSK tech is quite influential in it.

The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.
Téméraire was surprisingly confortable in the accomodations I saw, and I appreciated visiting it after seeing Wolf's Call, looking at what was correct and what wasn't. Let's just say that Wolf's Call was as incorrect on the SSBN's CIC as it was correct on the SSN's CIC. I mean, the production crew got to board a Rubis, take pictures inside the CIC and after security filtered which ones they could keep, they litterally rebuilt a 1:1 mock-up of the Rubis' CIC for shooting the scenes, but then, you probably guessed it, having been onboard a Rubis. The Triomphant's CIC is quite different from the one shown in the movie, though some other scenes inside it are closer to reality.
I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK
I started studying our legal system a bit last year, and I found it fascinating to compare how the people relate to law and government in various countries. It tells a lot about the national mindsets.
I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.
Yeah, TASM is cheap and simple, so it does allow a submarine to have a shipkilling capability on cooperative targets at long ranges, which is good, I'll admit. I just wish we went through with the ANF back in the Nineties, a conventional anti-ship variant of the 500 km - Mach 3 ASMP-A. Legend says that the US pressured us a bit to cancel the program, not wanting to see that kind of missile being sold to tinpot dictators of all kind, and offered to sell us the three Hawkeye we have for CdG as a carrot for that.


ASMP-A is pretty damn expensive, but if we could get an AShM variant out of it, perhaps with reduced performance compared to its nuclear brother, it might make for a superb shipkiller. But then, we get in the "what if" field. *goes back to his voxel SSBN in From The Depths to get his dose of "what if"*

Think i covered all your points :haha:
Yep! Thanks!

[Onkel Neal]

Spoilers will be hidden for this review.

Watched this last night. I was handicapped by a subtitles track that showed a line of dialogue 7 seconds before it was uttered on the screen, which was a little confusing at times. Some day I need to learn how to synch an srt file with the video, but oh well.

So, the French do have a few nuclear submarines, both fast attack and boomers, which makes them capable partners for NATO and the US. The movie mixes a little Dr. Strangelove with Hunt for Red October into a big budget film ($23 million), for France, and it looks really good. The plot is over the top and the main character finds a way to stay at the the center of the action in several scenes that stretch plausibility. And one other narrative device that anyone who knows anything about modern submarine warfare will find hard to swallow--everything is sped up 8x. Torpedoes really fly, subs can get from one area to another in a few hours when it would take much longer.

The main character ("Socks") is a young Acoustic Warfare Analyst who has a mythical ability to hear and classify anything on sonar, a little like Jonesy on HFRO. His sub the Titan is retrieving a SpecOps team off the coast of Syria and they run into a super quiet entity that he cannot classify, a mystery sub. His uncertainty nearly causes disaster and sets the stage for similar drama at the end of the film. Their sub is detected by an Iranian frigate which promptly dispatches a helo to attack them. One thing leads to another and the sub's only option is to emergency surface and the captain pops out the sail hatch with an RPG. And then! The RPG trigger is locked . What? That's taking child safety too far. Ok, so he has to yell at another sailor with an automatic rifle to shoot the lock off the RPG. While holding it in from of him. This really announced to me this film was not going to be very realistic and really set the tone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-VlUTtU8AEEDk6.jpg


The Titan returns to base, from Syria to France. News prominently announces the Russians are invading Finland, without going into detail as for why. France is threatening Russia, the US is uninterested in getting involved (really? Come on :roll:) and war looks likely. Socks is demoted and chewed out for not getting it right. He meets a chick and they fall in love, in 10 minutes. Which with war looming, makes sense to me, I know that's what I'll be doing. Socks breaks into the admiral's office, guesses his password and gets secret intel that reveals the mystery sub is a Russian class that was "cancelled", except it wasn't, so the French never knew it existed and no one has any sound info. Well, now he knows why he couldn't figure it out.

The French admiral dispatches the Titan's captain to sea on the SSBN Formidable to provide a nuclear deterrent to the Russkies and his XO D'orsy takes command of the fast attack Titan to provide cover. Off they go to some undisclosed underwater area to stand by.

The mysterious unclassified sub now seems to be in the Barents Sea, and unless there are two of them, this is a long way from the Mediterranean. It makes its presence known by launching an ICBM which French intelligence detects and tracks transiting across the entire length of Russian, headed to France. I guess this is a plot device that gives the French characters time to react, discuss, and plan to counter. It seems more likely that the Russian would want to strike much nearer to the target, but it becomes clear why this is happening later in the film in a clever twist.

The protocol leads the Admiralty to send a launch code to Formidable, and once sent, there is no recall. The captain of the Formidable will launch and nothing, not even a recall or abort code exists to stop him. It's explained that any attempt to recall the order could be due to spies, hackers, panicky government officials, the enemy, etc. So for the deterrent to be credible and effective, the protocol must be followed.

In a flurry of unlikely activity, Socks sneaks into the underground bunker where the decision makers are. They chew him out for being there then he is allowed to "listen" to the missile's profile. Not sure what the director thinks anyone can do to gauge the weight of a supersonic missile in flight but Socks announces that the missile is 30kg light, and surmises it does not have a payload, no warhead. They figure out the cancelled sub was actually built and sold to an Islamic terrorist group, and the launch is a tactic to start a nuclear war between the West and Russian. Good grief! And the Formidable is about to launch a counterstrike, which will start WWIII!

They fly Socks and the Admiral out to sea, board the the fast attack to stop the Formidable from launching. So much happens in the final 20 minutes, most of it totally impossible, but it is a fitting climax for The Wolf's Call.

[Exocet25fr]

https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2019/12/27/191227022448233099.jpg (https://www.casimages.com/i/191227022448233099.jpg.html)


https://www.colsbleus.fr/articles/11310

https://www.pgm-stuff.com/accueil/471-pack_6_patchs.html

[Blaise]

In the movie they have some terms that are not explained.

Perhaps someone can help -

What does TUUM stand for?

What exactly are "magic points"

What is CIRA

Also -

Could an underwater swimmer survive that deep without being crushed by the weight of the water.


The accuracy of a submarine-launched ICBM is determined by several factors, one of which is the precision to which the submarine's own position is known at the time of launch. Submarines can't detect GPS while underwater and the errors in the boat's inertial navigation system have a noticeable effect. One solution is to go to place (such as a seamount) whose position has been mapped to high precision and stored in a database in the submarine. While not necessary, the use of a 'magic point' will noticeable improve the accuracy of the missile launch.

[Aktungbby]

Blaise!:Kaleun_Salute: