The return of the Nazis and fascists

[Bleiente]

The brown tide - it's everywhere...


Translater
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Original
https://www.profil.at/shortlist/ausland/populismus-zukunftsplaene-neue-rechte-10571990


:k_confused:

[Kapitan]

It tends to go that way when there's been a shift too far to the left, problem is the EU is very liberal IMHO and that gets up the nose of the working classes.

I will think that come the next 40 years the EU will be a shadow of itself history says if you fail to learn from the mistakes your doomed to repeat them, i foresee a massive economic down turn in the EU inside the next 2 decades.

I also think the next country to leave on their own accord will l be France.

[Catfish]

Some people cannot stand the idea of foreign people coming into their country, even if they are fugitives. There are certainly some economic fugitives, and some criminals, and those deliver the ammunition for the far right-wingers to discredit all.
Maybe Europe is too liberal when it comes to immigration, and there are problems, and the rise of the right wing parties in Germany especially in economical weak counties like Saxonia and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern will be a problem. I still think it is better to help fugitives, but i seem to be pretty alone here.

What i absolutely miss is a european-wide clear position regarding immigration to all countries. We cannot let Greece and Turkey take the burden, while on the other hand Romania just closes its borders, while Germany seemingly ignores problems and gets on with business as usual.

edit: the EU indeed creates immigration numbers for its members to accept, usually based on financial strength and the number of the nation's inhabitants, to allow for a certain percentage of immigrants. Certain members like Romania simply refuse though. Of course e.g. Poland is not the classical immigration country, so it is easier for them. Romania is just putting on a show, while England (ab)uses real or made-up immigration numbers for its brexit. Fact is also that according to international law, a lot of countries would have to accept more immigrants than even the EU planned, for its members. So if e.g. England leaves and accepts international law, there will be even more immigrants. Or it disregards this law.

I would like to see the real actors in the Middle East to take responsibility, and accept immigrants. But the US are far away, and Russia does not seem to be the #1 choice for immigrants. Not that they would let them in anyway.

[mapuc]

Let me get this straight

After having read the original article

I got the feeling or understanding that:

If you belong to the rightwing and, or are critical to EU more less you are either nazi or fascist.

I belong to the rightwing(not extreme though) and are critical to the way EU have turned into.

I for once are NOT nazi or fascist.

I see myself as an rightwing leftis.

Markus

[CDR DPH]

Going forward more and more people will be on the move to countries that offer the chance of a better life, economically and politically. Spurred on by the successes of those that have gone before them they will all soon come to believe it is their turn and they deserve exactly the same.

Unfortunately, religious beliefs are seldom compromised and as history has shown are not very compatible or interchangeable.

Climate change, war, famine, water shortages all loom on the horizon. Countries that accept everyone who wants to come now, will at some point have to face the reality that they can accept no more. Yet more and more want to come and will arrive at the door with arms outstretched and will not accept that the inn is full.

Those who have already arrived, are not really interested in integrating into a new society. They are not inherently accepting of the the value system in their new country but choose to overlook this in the short term as they establish themselves in their own nationalist communities to promote and support their own values, their own prejudices and their own morality in addition to all the other belief baggage they bring with them.

More legitimate and faux refugees will come. All will circumvent the established processes for legal immigration. If you detect a problem now, just wait a few years. Wait for the newcomers to establish and organize themselves and begin to gain political influence first at the local level then the national level. Wait for the sectarian conflicts to flare up, pitting Mohammad against Jesus and against any other differing religious outlooks.

Wait for the violence to begin to spread. First in the inner cities, then slowly outward. Neighborhood by neighborhood. Knives, guns, acid attacks, rapes, thefts. Those that do not accept "our" laws, customs and norms of behavior, feel no compunction to conform. To them it is "their" way against "our" way and only one way can prevail. We sit back and scratch of heads wondering why our generosity and compassion is not enough. To those who wish to prevail, we, with our sentimentality are seen as being weak. Ripe to be exploited as that is how they have lived for generations in their own countries.

This is going to get much worse in very short order. Europeans will get out of bed one day and find they are a minority in their own country. Their country will no longer reflect their views as immigration will have supplanted the old national identity and pride with a new one based on legal precepts and religious ideology that is foreign to us.

We are sitting back and allowing our politically correct politicians to give away our birth right under the guise of humanitarianism. We are too timid to stop them. Can they be stopped?

We are making our own beds and we will certainly have to sleep in them.

When Europe is supplanted, the move will be westward to other countries with advantageous social programs and liberal and permissive attitudes. More lambs for the slaughter and more toe holds on foreign soil to advance an age old expansionist ideology that makes Russia seem tame by comparison.

As an aside, of course the "immigrants" don't want to go to Russia, no social programs, no free healthcare, no lavish monthly stipend to pay for all the new must haves needed in a country with a high standard of living. The refugees thus far have not gone to the first safe haven they can reach, they have all gone further than necessary to reach the very richest of countries, with the most generous handouts. If they have to struggle and tolerate hard times, they may as well stay where they are - no the easy life is what they think they are being offered, the good life what they believe they have been promised and that is all they are interested in accepting.

Wish to stop the refugees in their tracks, eliminate their unfettered access to social programs and they will immediately go elsewhere.

Me, I'm all for offering a hand up but not necessarily an unlimited handout. If my hand gets bitten in the process, I will stop. When my country's passports find their way to terrorist organizations around the world, I get mad. When I see my generosity and acceptance being taken for granted, I see it for what it is - being taken advantage of and an insult.

Thankfully, I'm old enough that I shouldn't have to see this mess unfold to its logical conclusion in the decades to come. Me, I'm going back to my submarine and patrol the Mediterranean looking for skiffs leaving Africa headed for the new promised land where all the streets are paved with gold and it's perfectly acceptable to rip up the streets when you get there.

Unrestricted liberal political correctness is going to be the end of us all and most of us are too caught up in our own fantasy world to see it coming.

[Eichhörnchen]

https://i.imgur.com/zNkG8Ux.jpg "Resistance is futile"

[Skybird]

Right now Germany does not deport more than 9 out of 10 asylum seekers whose request was officially denied. Even existing mandatory laws get violated by state governments in a bid to not deport people. Additonally, most laws in existence make it hilariously difficult to deprot people even if their asylum request has been denied - and they make these laws ever more complex all the time, it seems, and I suspect with the inention to hinder deportation. Most of therejected asylum seekers - still stay. And of the few that gets send out by force, several ones simply come back again. They may have villated laws, they may have been caught by the police for crime deeds - that all is no reason as well to send them away.I do not even talk abot the many, many foreigners who simply disappear form the screen of the authorities, just "vanish".

And words on this practice makes the round in Africa and the ME.

The Germans are stupid, wallowing in their emotions exclcusively, and ignoring reason completely.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28f

German self-description par exellence. Save me.

Only a fraction of the migranst who arrived in the past three years, work. Of these, the overwhelming majority work in low-wage jobs that do not allow to form the basis of self-sustainability . In case of a recession, this kind of jobs is the first shutting down and firing people.

Germany has imported hundreds of thousands and millions of social wellfare receivers. BTW, it is expected that the economic boom in Germany will come to an end this year. Recession is knocking on the doors.

So...

Moral megalomania that totally ignores any realities. It stinks to heaven. And it makes me sick that I get blackmailed for state protection mony to pay for this ####. Its not as if we had not had no people in need ourselves already. As a state, Germany has been run in a mode that consumes reserves in recent years, and maintenance of existing structures was underfunded. The results have started to show since long.

Does not matter.

At the same time it can be questioned whether there really is a shortage for experts and craftsmen and so forth, as it is claimed. It seems there are quite enough specilaised employees, still - its just that they are expected to work for very low wages not honouring their qualification. The industry and employers demand them to work for less. Germany is an outstanding low wage country in the western industrial sphere, reslt of gionvenrments constantly fuelign inflation and subsidizing schmes, which of course both necessarily distort a healthy selection of capable and incapable companies. In the EU, in the past 10 years the rate of uncompetitive companies that get kept alive only by massive finaciaol aid and subsidies, has jumped from 5% to over 15%. And these zombie companies damage the whole system, and suck off more and more ressources. A high unemployment rate is a dream for employers, it allows them to keep wages low. Thats what explains best why they desperately want to raise migration.

For service should be offered, and work shoudl be done. Its just that people do not want to pay for it what it is worth by market standards.

The implication is that the migrants one imports are understood to be - slaves.

Slaves,: or wallowing in precious German sentiments of moral posing: it depends on who reflects on the Völkerwanderung that happens now: the big companies and the industry, or the garden gnome counting German morale apostle.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

We must do like the Australians. And I add: we must not hide it, but broadcast it live on African TV.

[STEED]

So Jeremy Corblyn leader of the UK Labour party who hates the EU is in fact not a far left loon but a hard line solid Fascist! :o

[Catfish]

Did anyone even bother to read the OP ? :haha:

[CDR DPH]

Sure, I read it. The reality is pretty self-evident if one is honest. People, in this case Europeans, are shifting their support to what they perceive to be the lesser of two evils.

Fundamentally, people have lost control of their own governments. Democracy was never perfect but it is predated on the principle that the people will keep the politicians in check.

For a whole host of reasons, fewer people tend to vote and governments get bigger and assume more and more control. What politician can resist a "new and good piece of legislation" when they have nothing else to do?

The same is happening in democracies around the world. Those who are in touch with their political reality are fed up. The rest have given up. Brexit is an attempt to halt the march towards complete submission to the political elite by those who wish to voice an opinion and choose to mark an X on a ballot. The rest just complain that they do not see the need to vote because they really do not wish to be bothered and support the basic notion that government is inherently good, control over the population is what is needed and as long as the "free cheese" continues to be handed out, they are all for this type of "I don't have the time or inclination to care" governance - a literal field day for politicians who detest facing criticism and prefer to just get it done before anyone really understands what it is that they these political creatures are actually doing.

Nationalism and extreme right wing ideologies stem from political frustration and a sense of public helplessness. That's not to say these fascists intend to correct the problems, but they are all too eager to act like typical politicians and capitalize on the naivety of those desperate to halt the runaway train.

The take away lesson is this: If people see fascism as a problem, it is up to them to ensure that fascists don't get power. If the people see runaway government as a problem, it is up to them to remove the errant politicians at the first available opportunity and continue doing so until the wishes of the people are upheld.

If the voters are not prepared to do their part, then you get what we now see with the EU that is no longer recognizable as an economic union or in fact a union of any kind. The interests of government and the people are diverging at an ever increasing pace. The result, someone pulls the emergency break by way of offering extreme polar opposites in political leanings and the people, who still cannot grasp that they are a big part of the problem, latch on to what appears to be an easier solution offered by someone else rather than tossing the ba$tards out of office time and again until the system is corrected.

Voters need to fix the fact that governments no longer represent them, not latch on to smooth sales pitches from other politicians offering to to do what voters must do themselves. The cake in the windows always looks good. After a bite, if you don't like the taste, it's too late, you just bought the cake.

[u crank]

Sure, I read it. The reality is pretty self-evident if one is honest. People, in this case Europeans, are shifting their support to what they perceive to be the lesser of two evils.

Fundamentally, people have lost control of their own governments. Democracy was never perfect but it is predated on the principle that the people will keep the politicians in check.

And one of the more upsetting parts of this rise in Populism and push back against current trends is the constant moral preening of those who appose it. The authoritarian Left and there media allies are not satisfied with just stating their case. No they have to remind everyone of their supposed moral high ground. They are your betters. You do not have a right mind so they will tell you how to think. And of course your reaction to the their failed policies will bring condemnation, not because of any inaccuracies in your belief, but simply because you are an uneducated, misinformed citizen who should not dare to question them. So if you see that unchecked immigration, for example, is causing obvious problems your criticism of it makes you a Nazi or a racist or xenophobe. There is to them, your moral overlords, no other possible explanation. Their belief is a self reinforcing polemic that is used like a mantra. Say it enough and it has to be true. Get the progressive media to repeat it and that is even better.

Nationalism and extreme right wing ideologies stem from political frustration and a sense of public helplessness.

This is something our betters, those who claim moral superiority fail to understand over and over. They create the problems and then are aghast when people react to it. And most of the problems they create do not effect them personally. Their positions, wealth and elite status insulate them from the very problems they make for the less 'enlightened' masses. It is a recipe for disaster and chaos. It won't end well.

[Jimbuna]

Some interesting debate going on here :yep:

[Bleiente]

I think there is a misunderstanding in my intention here.
More than 100 years ago, it was exactly these developments as well as practices in nationalism and right-wing populism that had led to both world wars.
The analogy as well as causality is undeniable - it has always started ... and ended badly.

Also, I am neither elitist nor morally superior, I refer only to the history and the present developments in the Western Hemisphere.

One more note:
Russia is massively supporting the nationalists and right-wing populists in Europe with billions of euros.
The influence on the election of Trump by the Russians should now be considered proven.


:salute:

[CDR DPH]

I think there is a misunderstanding in my intention here.


I believe you have a very valid point. The quote, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" seems rather appropriate.

With respect to the ongoing situation within the EU, the financial bailouts, brexit, immigration and the seeming unchecked expansion in the scope of control exercised by Brussels coupled with the amount of influence being exercised by Germany, I would hope "the world" would be smart enough to stand back and let any internal strife play itself out.

Two NATO countries lobbing smoke at each other should not automatically invoke Article 5. The subsequent involvement of a non-NATO country attempting to take strategic advantage of a situation might however, complicate matters.

Nonetheless, I perceive Germany to be the biggest part of this problem currently. There is no doubt that country has an inordinate amount of sway and in large part is contributing to the discontent throughout the EU while at the same time propping it up with money and political influence.

It might be time, if the EU wishes to pursue a different path, perhaps a less rapid movement towards totalitarianism, to ask Germany to take a 5 year time out. Thank them for their contributions, keep them feeling welcome within the union, but significantly curtail their day to day influence and control over the remaining countries and the the internal political processes.

People much smarter than me have rightly concluded that a standing EU army is a nonstarter. It seems that what Germany wants to do, is what the EU does these days. Perhaps relating to France as well but to a lesser degree.

So yes, I have no difficulty envisioning conflict between member nations if the present trends and course is not altered. I would hope the world could stay out of any such unfortunate turn of events, but you know people - especially people with perceived power and visions of grandeur dancing between their ears...

Over time I think we will see more countries decide to pack it in and extricate themselves from under the thumb of the EU and that may just act as a pressure relief valve preventing the alternative. I don't wish to see the union dissolve but I also cannot see a path to its long term salvation under the present leadership and direction.

The people need to take back control from their politicians and not just vote in the same sort of authoritarian personalities from the opposite end of the political spectrum. The use of humanitarian immigration on a scale unseen before, for the purposes of moral suasion, is going to have consequences for civil societies in every country in the EU for a long time to come. People have become complacent in doing what government tell them to do. Government has long since learned that the hearts and minds of the people follow the carrots and free cheese offered to placate large segments of populations. The politicians know what they are doing and believe the end justifies the means. It is the governed people who have become confused and impotent; No longer able to separate themselves from those who always seem take advantage of a population for their own agenda and aggrandizement.

An interesting time indeed to be in reinforced bunker sales these days...

[mapuc]

So in another way

The way people have been voting the last 40-50 years
and
The way our elected politicians have acted the last 40-50 years

May lead to what some of you have mentioned in this thread.

Markus

[CDR DPH]

Perhaps the slogan for democracy needs to be changed.

From: "For the people by the people."

To: "The people get what they deserve for being acquiescent sheep."

[Bleiente]

If you think I'm a sheep.
That's nice.



:D

[Buddahaid]

So where is the middle ground? Why do all these arguments just boil down to you're either with me, or against me? A little is always too much? You compromise at all now and you're either a Nazi or a snowflake and that's an old tired song that sadly keeps cycling into popularity to the deaths of millions of voices.

[CDR DPH]

I don't know you Bleiente so I can't say one way or the other. My comments are intended to be taken in a general sense. Please refrain from making "it" personal.

- there are lots of people who do not vote
- lots of people vote along party lines and not for those with new/innovative/the best ideas.
- lots of people can't find Brussels on a map
- lots of people are haters by nature
- lots of people fail to employ logic in their decision making
- the truth hurts so is avoided by many

Not everyone is a sheep/lamb but many are. Most millennials are. That being said, "the people" will be judged by what they do or do not do. Your politicians represent and speak for you. If everyone looks in the mirror and sees a person who has done everything they can to make their country better, to keep democracy responsive and accountable, then there is obviously something in the water contributing to a mass delusion. Is the EU exactly what everyone thought it would be, I don't think so.

There is work to be done but few seem intent on getting to work. More of the same is easier apparently.

[CDR DPH]

For me the middle ground is that place where sanity, logic and clearly defined results converge.

Not all immigrants are needed or even wanted. Some will assimilate and enjoy a life that makes society better for us all. Others, not so much. We should not be saying anyone whose house was bombed on the other side of the world is welcome to live on our streets. Logic dictates that not all of those who find themselves dispossessed are desirable.

We as a society have to stop telling everyone what to do all the time. We attempt to codify everything that happens in our daily lives. Then we attempt to prod others in other countries to do the same. We tend to focus on the results and lose sight of the path to get there. We are so politically correct these days that we cannot laugh at ourselves and it is now a mortal sin to laugh at anyone else.

We can't identify criminals by their ethnicity so that others of that group are not unfairly assumed to be criminals themselves. The fact that in some cases, the majority of criminals are in fact of a specific ethnicity and thus other members of that community are also probably criminals, is just too difficult for people to process so we just avoid stating the obvious and label anyone who does as a racist.

Speak badly of women and your a misogynist. Speak badly of immigrants who make our societies worse and you are a xenophobe. About the only segment of society that is not a distinct and protected class these days is the white male. That is clearly a different discussion.

The middle ground is where reason, sanity and sober reflection can exist, can be discussed, can be openly contemplated without resulting in cries from rabid fanatics denouncing anything and everything that is the least bit interpretive. The middle ground is where politicians consult and heed the advice they are given. Where a political agenda does not trump reason and logic just for the sake of obtaining an arbitrary or politically advantageous goal at the expense of in and in complete disregard of the electorate. The middle ground is devoid of fanaticism, radicalism and just about every other "ism". The middle ground is the recognition that people are individuals, are what comprises our notion of humanity and are capable of being good to one another. The middle ground is not the left or the right or even those who consider themselves centrist. The middle ground is where everything is possible and from that place comes rules, goals, associations that are reasonable, fair and just, favoring no one in particular but everyone in general.

[u crank]

The middle ground is where reason, sanity and sober reflection can exist, can be discussed, can be openly contemplated without resulting in cries from rabid fanatics denouncing anything and everything that is the least bit interpretive. The middle ground is where politicians consult and heed the advice they are given. Where a political agenda does not trump reason and logic just for the sake of obtaining an arbitrary or politically advantageous goal at the expense of in and in complete disregard of the electorate. The middle ground is devoid of fanaticism, radicalism and just about every other "ism". The middle ground is the recognition that people are individuals, are what comprises our notion of humanity and are capable of being good to one another. The middle ground is not the left or the right or even those who consider themselves centrist. The middle ground is where everything is possible and from that place comes rules, goals, associations that are reasonable, fair and just, favoring no one in particular but everyone in general.

Well said. Very well said.

[Buddahaid]

Thank you. It still takes seeing and that's all perception.

[Catfish]

This sounds a bit different, yes. And i am all for logic, and calling a spade a spade regardless of political wants or bias.

So, for me, when somone's life is threatend due to a war
a) in case of the middle east perpetrated by nations that are far away and want to enforce their strategical/economical/political interest in that region, with consequences for the population that the latter has no control of
or
b) in case someones's life is directly threatened for political reasons, or being a minority, or just unwanted (like the Kurdish), or because they dared to criticize their government like with Mr Kashoggi, who was tortured and dismembered alive if someone already forgot that.

Those people should be helped. Just because their dear life is being threatened, while for us helping them means a relatively(!)small nuisance to us, if we feel it at all.
To call a spade a spade I am glad Skybird was able to buy his 3000 Euro or whatever VR gaming rig, it seems all those immigrants were not able to hinder him, and sure he did not consider to give the money to helping organisations instead. I do not blame him or others at all (in fact i also care more for myself than for others, computer, car, apartment, house whatever), but some are lamenting from a relatively high level. Yes we have some problems, but compared to Syria? To Iraq? We never had it as good as now here in Europe. In my humblest of opinions, yes we can afford it, and immigration numbers are falling.
If he or me was born in Syria we probably would have other "problems".

This does not mean i am content how some convictable criminals organized like the Mafia are not immediately being deported, but again this is not the majority. If someone steals he goes to jail or is being sent back if his life is not threatened there, if someone kills he should be deported right away.


Another thing regarding post #1.
While it is of course true that not everyone who is afraid of immigrants is a "Nazi", especially parties who promise to "care" for the immigrants in their own special way like the AfD in Germany use the exact same vocabulary as the Nazis; it is as if they directly copied it from the "Stuermer" NSDAP newspaper back then.
They take away our jobs, they are assassins, they will breed more of their offspring than us ("Ueberfremdung", used by the AfD), they will destroy our culture, our country and spirit are bound for destruction. They will take and destroy our religion, and they take and rape "our" women.

If i read or hear such words, my alarm bells start to ring. When such vocabulary and propaganda is being used, it usually means war. Yes i know this war talk is used by the Sun or the Express in England since decades, but i was not worried until Farage and UKIP.

A third thing regarding post #1, and it will not please you: When the NSDAP claimed power, it was not the majority. Indeed they aggressively grabbed power illegally, with frightening and blackmailing other members of the parliament, beating or killing them, since the Nazis were to lose the next election. This is exactly what the AfD is trying in Germany, or what happens in Romania, or Poland. Bleiente's warning or fear is not unfounded. It was most probably the AfD which recently published intimate details of all political adversaries, with copied e-mails, details of their children, their friends, addresses etc., and hints were to hit them.

A last thing about "Nazis", if anyone cares to define this term anyway. They were not the most intelligent people. They hated what they thought of as "the elite". The SA which made it all possible mostly consisted of dumb thugs and scrappers, who wanted to be "great". Of course there were some like Goebbels or other party theorists, but the major part of their early followers were not the brightest. But they were finally given a chance now, after all those years of having no job for whatever reason, being subdued by others they feared or envied, now they had finally won and let the other side feel it. And i do see some analogy. God help us if something like the PiS or AfD parties get the upper hand.

[CDR DPH]

With 7+ billion people now on this planet and more being born every day into adverse living conditions, let's say 4 billion people are living in war torn areas, areas of severe drought, famine, depressed economic conditions, political tyranny and places not as nice as other places. This makes for a lot of potential immigrants who wish to better their situation. Many who would not normally strike out for far away pastures if it were not for the stories coming back about how "profitable" such a journey can be or how unlikely it is that they will be denied sanctuary.

I am now of the opinion, after having reached the conclusion that there is no possible way for the developed world to accept everyone who will eventually show up, the only feasible solutions are those that correct the problems that produce these refugee migrations in the countries where these problems exist.

"We" should be concerned, we should be empathetic but we must also be pragmatic. "We" must make it possible for the downtrodden to live and prosper where they are. The United Nations rather than drafting treaties that define how refugees are to be treated when they show up and say, "here I am, feed me", should probably be focusing on compelling errant governments to look after their own citizens in their own country.

[Bleiente]

https://i.imgur.com/zNkG8Ux.jpg "Resistance is futile"
We are the Borg! :timeout:



:haha:

[Bleiente]

And further in the text... umm on the topic.
Nice column in the "Spiegel".

Google translator
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fnetzwelt%2Fweb%2Fv erantwortung-des-journalismus-schluss-mit-business-as-usual-a-1248317.html

Original
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/verantwortung-des-journalismus-schluss-mit-business-as-usual-a-1248317.html


:hmmm: