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mapuc

12-03-18, 05:24 PM

I can't be the only one.

When I was young death was never on my mind, I can't remember having a thought of it.

When I had reached 40 and above, death was on my mind now and then but without fear.

Now that I'm a little bit over 50 thoughts about death have struck my mind, more than now and then.

And now fear also appear sometimes when I have these thoughts about death.
Keep on saying to myself I should stop having fear for what is
unavoidable and that my fear is based on old fairly tales.

Wonder if I'm the only one with these thoughts.

For your information, I do NOT have these thoughts everyday.

Markus

Reece

12-03-18, 05:59 PM

As a Christian I have no fear of dying at all. . . Only the process!!:yep:

mapuc

12-03-18, 06:11 PM

Death is, as I see it, a two part process
First process I call the bridge. Because here a person have to cross the life he or she have to something unknown, after they have died.(don't know how I should explain this)

The second part is unknown-what happens after one is dead ?

I know or I think I believe the brain continue to give a dead person dreams until there's no more oxygen.

Markus

Mr Quatro

12-03-18, 06:45 PM

At the moment of death that is who you are forever ... :o

Good, bad, indifferent, angry, moody, hungry, sensual, lusty etc.

forever is a long time ... I won't get into the religion thing, but it borders on the faith thing, either you have faith or you don't.

My ancestors celebrate death with Irish wakes, but I cried and cried when my mother died ... with faith I'll see her again someday :yep:

Sailor Steve

12-03-18, 08:00 PM

I'm sixty-eight right now. People younger than myself are dying of "natural causes". Of course we can die any time via an accident, but that's unexpected and hopefully pretty sudden.

With all that I find myself pretty well resigned to it. It's going to happen, no matter how much we might desire to avoid it.

I used to believe in an afterlife, and a pretty specific one. Then one day I went looking for evidence, and after a couple of decades I still haven't found any. That's why the call it "unknown". Nobody knows anything about it, though many claim they do. You can speculate, you can guess, you can wish, you can hope, but you can't know. Those who claim they do I consider to be deluded. I too wish there was something more, but the more I look for anything to indicate that it might be true, the less I find.

August

12-03-18, 08:23 PM

Mr Quatro

12-03-18, 08:33 PM

If you die before we do Steve leave us sign like a strange message that was posted after you die. of course we will all think it's a hoax anyway :o

See you on the other side! Wasn't that a spaghetti western movie saying with Clint Eastwood?

Sailor Steve

12-03-18, 09:02 PM

Well the way I look at it is if believers are wrong then they'll never know it and neither will the non believers ever know that they were right. On the other hand if the believers turn out to be right then both sides will know who was right and who wasn't. :)
If you're talking strictly about an afterlife, the you're right. If you're talking about a specific afterlife, then a lot of believers of one sort or another are going to be severely disappointed to find out that while they were right about that one point they're still going to pay dearly.

Still, I don't deny the existence of said afterlife, or even the possibility. I just haven't seen any of what I call "evidence".

Skybird

12-03-18, 09:03 PM

Mapuc,

No mortal can avoid thoughts about death and dying forever. Sooner or late they find us. Sooner, I would say: already little children, at some age around 6, 7 years or so. Maybe some even earlier.

I say you only have one chance to get along with thoughts about it: You must make death your friend. Its the only certainty in your life. Nothing else is certain, not even your next breath. A more reliable companion you will never find. And in your last moments in this life, he will be there. You can count on him.

For what scares us, is not so much the non-existence (from which we emerged anyway), but the dying as a process or the death that takes others, loved ones, away from us, while we must survive - and feel the lack. And that hurts.

See it this way, maybe: all there is, is just an idea in our head. Even our understanding of what our head is, our brain, and how its processing creates the mind we think is ours, is just an idea. Its unreal a world we live in, that we perceive, that we experience. Its just the interpretation of incoming electric stimuli in our brains, input from our eyes and ears - but never has any living creatue ever touched the universe itself, directly: it had been electrons, photons hitting the retina, waves finding the ears, etc. Our whole conception of what we are, and what dies when we die, is just an idea - our idea. Its not the original. Not "reality". It even cannot ever be. "Brain" is just an idea - ours. So is "electric stimulus". "Eye". "Photon". "Nervous system". We cannot get into contact with the things directly. Neither them, nor our senses, are real, are not what they seem to be.

To me, so far it is just logical conclusion until here. The last conclusion from this all is: we are not the ones we use to think of ourselves as.

And that asks one question, the one question that all existence and all the univese is revolving around: Who am I? It may sound like a second question, but it isn't, it is the same one question just in another clothing: what is this idea this universe/life/myself is basing on, where does it come from, and why? I cannot touch the universe directly: only form my own idea about it - including my idea of myself.

If all this is just idea, and this idea is the origin of the ideas I form about myself and my life and the universe, then it all must be one and I cannot be any different, cannot be separated from it/anything/universe. Me and the universe is one and the same, I am the cause of myself and everything else, and everything and me are one and by this one-ness everything always was and always will be and cannot be any different than just this. Time is a dream passing by, but there is no real time passing. I am, and this expression means to embrace all existence and universe, and it cannot be any different. There is just one, and always was and always will be. Its all a dream, images come and images go, they all are just reflections of unreal things, but nothing really comes and nothing really goes, like the ocean does not come and go and does not win anything and does not lose anything due to the waves on its surface playing. There are no single, separate waves. There is just the ocean. There is no life and death. There is just the endless coming and going of ideas, images, scenes... And them all are us, for it is us who bring them up. And in the end, "us" must be thought not in plural, but singular.

Buddhists sometimes use the image - there you have it again! - of soap bubbles floating in empty space. Inside they only hold empty space, and outside them, surrounding them, is empty space. What changes when one bubble bursts, what is the loss? When a new bubble shows up, a birth of a living being somehwere - what gets added to it all? Nothing! Its all just empty space. One and the same empty space all the time. There are not many or infitnte kinds od empty spaces. "Me", "Life", "God", "Universe" - its all one and the same thing. Always has been so, always will be. Nothing can be gained, no enlightenment can be won, say Buddhists. Nothing can be added, for nothing ever was separated. We must no get everywhere - we always have been there.

You sound a bit scared, mapuc, worried, and probably most people know this feeling of terror and panic when they realise first time ever in their life that they must die one day, and that evertyhign they like or dislike, own or wish for, their loved ones and the enemies - that all and everythign will be lost, must let go. Nothing lasts forever. Life is like a lesson in just one thing: letting things go. And one day, even ourselves.

You sound as if this haunts you, really scares you. Death has set you on his mailing list. My advise is: do not try to adblock it, it is in vain. Turn towards it, do not invite it but also do not push it away. Look at it. Study it. Find all features and details in its face, note how your react to eveything new you find out, maybe you find that it is not as scaring as you initially thought it is. Spiritual crisis can have a very positive effect, since where there is no doubt there can never be any insight.

Since this is a personal voyage you must undertake, and revealed something of quite personal nature about yourself - your fear - I want to answer you with something personal as well.

25 and more years ago, I still engaged in writing, a couple of short stories, two novels, a collection of poems, a rework of the TaoTeKing, nothing really special or good enough to seriously consider to publish it. In the end, I stayed a layman in writing. One of the two or three better little things I produced, was a "Novelle", that means a story too short to call it a novel, but longer than the usual short story, title was "Picknick in Avalone", and for that I wrote a poem that was at its very beginning. I give you the exact English translation of my German original, so it has neither rhyme nor rythm nor prose, but hopefully you still get the idea behind it.

And a dream is all life,
And all world movement is just delusion.
It starts and it ends
In the right place, at the right time.

And a dream is this world,
Interwoven with invisible powers.
They separate, confuse,
And bring together,
Yet are both in one.

Between Now and Then,
Surrounded by Here and Nowhere,
I was looking for the Other Country
All life long,
And found

Avalone,
The fabled
The magical
When opening my door
And found I never was gone.

We all must transcend our existence, or death will press us down to the ground. How to live well if fearing death? How to die without fear if living in fear? Inm the end, the books of the dea,d like the Tibetan Bardo Thödol, not only tell you something about the process of dying and incarnating, but also about the art of living. Because it all is just one thing.

But we can only transcend our life by moving beyond ourselves, forgetting about ourselves (or should I say: our selves ?) Hearsay will not save us, just imagining something will lead us nowhere, false prophets offer us no real escape, just a way to worship and feed them. Everyone of us must awake from his own dream, and that can nobody do for him, everbody must do that himself. Of one thing however I am certain: there is nothing that is worth to be feared. Where we fear, we have not yet understood.

Commander Wallace

12-03-18, 09:43 PM

This all reminds me of a comedy routine by Jeff Dunham. One of his puppets or characters is " Achmed the dead terrorist. "

Achmed said in his religion that if he dies as a martyr for the cause, he will be rewarded in the afterlife with 72 virgins. Jeff asks Achmed if he is sure they will be women and not men ? :haha:

This isn't that clip but gives people the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRdVSpaUE2c

August

12-03-18, 09:55 PM

If you're talking strictly about an afterlife, the you're right. If you're talking about a specific afterlife, then a lot of believers of one sort or another are going to be severely disappointed to find out that while they were right about that one point they're still going to pay dearly.

Still, I don't deny the existence of said afterlife, or even the possibility. I just haven't seen any of what I call "evidence".

Evidence aside, personally I find it highly arrogant for folks to say what the afterlife (or God for that matter) is like. Most of us can't even keep a checkbook balanced yet we opine in great detail about the attributes of a supernatural being that we have never seen in person.

nikimcbee

12-03-18, 10:20 PM

vienna

12-03-18, 10:23 PM

Evidence aside, personally I find it highly arrogant for folks to say what the afterlife (or God for that matter) is like. Most of us can't even keep a checkbook balanced yet we opine in great detail about the attributes of a supernatural being that we have never seen in person.

I guess that last sentence also applies to the so-called evangelists who expound so mightily (for a 'small' donation) on their 'knowledge' of the after life and why their way is the only way...

...and, given how so many of them seem to get caught with their hands in the till, their check book skills are also suspect...

...or as a wise man was explained:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

Just saying...

<O>

Armistead

12-03-18, 11:24 PM

Yes, in my early 50's, I think about it. Course at that age many of the adults in my life, parents, etc., have recently died, which makes you think about it. Course, like most, the concern is over health, disease, what could it be., more so when you see people you love die out slowly over a period of several months with severe suffering. But in the end, I know nothing I can do about it, so I try not to worry about it.

I also don't worry about the afterlife. While I'm open to the possibility there's something more, I see no evidence that any religion has it right. For most of them, salvation is based off fear, accept a certain belief or go to hell forever. If God exist, I don't believe him to be that petty. Imagine being a Christian and dying only to face Allah and Allah says to you...depart to hell to be tortured forever.... What you gonna say? Most people simply believe based off cultural or parental indoctrination.

Sailor Steve

12-03-18, 11:40 PM

em2nought

12-04-18, 01:30 AM

After my father died some bible study layman took it upon herself to tell my mother that she won't be with my dad in heaven as man and wife. Really? How do you know? WHY tell somebody that? Have you been there? I seriously don't know what I'd have done if I'd been there when it happened, I might have gone to jail and I'm no violent man. Shut your fracking pie hole! My mother was terribly upset.

...of course there will be dogs there, I'm not exactly sure I'll be there as I am a Trump supporter. :03:

I just hope I die after my 93 year old mother, she already lost my brother and father. It's enough to bare. If I could get to retire for a few years it would be icing on the cake!

Skybird

12-04-18, 05:00 AM

Jimbuna

12-04-18, 07:37 AM

When I was younger and a LEO I was sometimes called/expected to face some potentially life threatening situations (baton only v knife wielding threat) etc. and the thought of fatality seldom was taken into consideration, possibly because of the adrenalin rush?, I can't say for sure. After the event you were often suddenly overcome by the realisation of what could of been and vowed to yourself 'never again'....until the next time.

These days, being far more sedentary in lifestyle and taking into account the increasing number of funerals I visit for family and friends (the latest being that of a cousin last Friday) I take stock of the situations and find myself thinking more of the fact it will eventually be my turn.

I don't know what if anything awaits me after death but I take comfort in the knowledge I am doing my utmost to ensure those of my family who survive me will benefit from my demise either in financial or property terms.

Mr Quatro

12-04-18, 01:00 PM

I don't believe in religion ... religion is just a disciplined way to serve God and we don't all have the same God, but I do believe in a personal relationship with Jesus, the son of God. Who promises a judgement day ... a judgement day for our sins.

Religion also has different forms of rewards and promises such as the Muslims for being a martyr and receiving 72 virgins or a Buddha lover or a Hindu lover and believing in reincarnation.

So if you believe in a reward for your behaviour you will more than likely behave.

What's to keep a non believer in going berserk and wiping out his or her entire family? What about the senior Army general's in charge of nuclear weapons that don't believe in a punishment phase and of course think that this life is all there is?

What's to keep them from wiping an entire civilization?

That's why I believe there is an invisible hand on every believer and non believer since time began or we are all doomed to the will of a crazy general or admiral or submarine captain out there in the deep blue sea. :o

King Solomon said it best: Ecclesiastes 3

To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones,
and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to get, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time of war, and a time of peace.

and then again in verse 3:13
And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

mapuc

12-04-18, 01:15 PM

u crank

12-04-18, 01:21 PM

In my 68 odd years on planet earth I have run the gamut of belief about death and the hereafter. From atheist to Evangelical Christian to a now pretty much a confirmed Agnostic. How can anyone possibly know?

My own personal belief is now that when you die, brain function stops and you cease to exist. Your consciousness returns to the same state that it was in before your father's sperm went for that fateful swim. You'll be dead but you won't know it in the same way that you weren't alive and didn't know it. There can't be any fear of death if you can't think about it anymore. In some ways it will be a relief.

Regardless no one gets out alive.

Sailor Steve

12-04-18, 01:23 PM

You had to go there...

What's to keep a non believer in going berserk and wiping out his or her entire family?
What indeed? Why don't thousands of non-believers do that every day? Possibly because we're more concerned with our feelings for our family and friends (and strangers) than we are for some promise propounded by some priest? Another thing to consider is the observation that if your only reason for doing good is the promise of a reward later, or the threat of punishment later, then you're basing your "goodness" on a carrot-and-stick principle rather than an actual desire to help others.

Yet another problem with that reasoning is that when such atrocities do happen they are equally likely to be perpetrated by a believer as a non-believer.

What about the senior Army general's in charge of nuclear weapons that don't believe in a punishment phase and of course think that this life is all there is?
Same as above. Bad behavior - whether it's as simple as cheating on your spouse or as complex as starting a war - is equally likely to be done by believer and non-believer alike. In fact, a great many atrocities have been committed and wars started by believers specifically because of their beliefs.

Morality is an observed phenomenon. Some people are good and some are bad. What they believe doesn't really seem to come into it.

What's to keep them from wiping an entire civilization?
Possibly the thought that they are pretty likely to be one of the ones wiped out?

That's why I believe there is an invisible hand on every believer and non believer since time began or we are all doomed to the will of a crazy general or admiral or submarine captain out there in the deep blue sea. :o
Believing doesn't make it so.

This started out as a discussion on life and afterlife. Why not keep it that way?

Mr Quatro

12-04-18, 01:32 PM

Ought oh I pulled Steve's chain, but my view does lend to the discussion on life and afterlife. I did put religion in it's place ... :yep:

My view doesn't match your view that's okay with me ... I'm not trying to convert you. We should all be thankful for something ... I'm thankful my God is keeping the devil at bay :yep:

Sailor Steve

12-04-18, 01:42 PM

My view doesn't match your view that's okay with me ... I'm not trying to convert you.
But you were claiming that your view is superior, and the correct one.

Skybird

12-04-18, 04:32 PM

I will say thank you a lot, for your answers in my thread and especially thank you to Skybird.

Fear or worried is not the correct word when it come to death itself. I know that death is one thing that is very certain in our life.
The only thing I'm worried about is how will I die. Will I be in severe pain weeks before death comes at take me or will I die right on spot, not feeling anything.

My grandma died of Cancer in her stomach and was, despite painkiller in severe pain weeks before she died-That is something I hope will not happen to me and if it does, I hope they have better treatment today then they had when she lived and died.

Or as the elderly man who, day before Christmas fainted and died on spot while he was walking on boardwalk. he was hit by what the paramedics called acute cardiac arrest. Of course it's a sad story when you think about the day he died on.

Another thing was. I didn't just had some thoughts about death and then posted here in our GT.

I had some thoughts around it. If I post a new threads about death, will it turn into a religious discussion.

It didn't and that I'm thankful for.
My thread shall be seen more like a psychological discussion people have about death and what they may be worried about.

Markus
Markus,
again I see it a bit stoical there. Is it worth to be worried by something that you cannot avoid: that is the circumstances of your dying? You will die the way you do when your time has come, and nobody can tell you in advance what it will be like. The issue must not concern you, because what will be - will be, and the time until then will be of the same length, no matter whether you spend it worrying, enjoying life, laughing, or fearing.

Also,and I do not say this easymindedly, you owe nobody to suffer to full lengths what awaits you, you are always free to prepare yourself while you have time left, and if fate does not knock you out and render you helplessly all of a sudden, you have any right a born being can have to decide yourself when and how to leave the show on stage. Nobody has any claim for you, you can decide freely - I just recommend to not decide for it easily and too early - but then, also not too late. Some will say this is cowardly, or weak, or that it is against any god's law, and that we must fight until last breath, and bla and bla and blablabla, on, but you are not competing in a sports championship, it is not them living your life but yourself is living your life, and it is your pain and suffering if there will be pain and suffering, and finally there have been many cultures and traditions where the dishonour lies not "opting out early", but in holding out until the last breath possible, showing no courage to discover the "undiscovered country". I claim this right for myself, and thus I must accept and will it for others as well. I urge you only to not form final decisions of this kind in any state of emotional arousal, may it be positive or negative, may it be enjoyment of anger, fear or hate. Decide such things with a clam and peaceful, balanced mind.

Personally I live with the prospect of most likely going early, due to health issues. I decided that the likely natural end will be such that it means only misery and a pityful sight, and so I claimed this my birth right to leave one day by my decision, self-determined. Believe it or not, but I live freer since then, since accepting that, I lost quite some sorrows and found greater freedom from others' claims for my acts and responsibilities. Its a tricky balance, however, for when I wait too long, I may get struck and then being so helpless that I cannot carry out what I want, and the others will not help me to do so: the older I get, the riskier the gamble to wait longer becomes. Well, so is life. There are no certainties, but even the dying does not last forever.

I think we modern people in the West have a very pathological relation to death, and it does not serve us well, nor is there dignity in it. We run away and pretend to be young, and behave like younger people - that we are no more since long. That is very immature, imo, and is a life driven by fear, fear of death and fear to miss something. But our life will never be complete, and there will always be a plethora of things that we miss and will not finish. One wave shows up and disappears, or it simply turns into another wave that it meets, opens up in it, or the ocean just flattens out for a moment.

Its all just one, Markus, and time is only a function of the mind: t=f(m). :) Its an illusion. The things being, the experience of ours, do happen, we notice it for sure: but they show us unreal imagery only that we cannot really own, or hold, or even just touch. To me, it all is a dream that dreams itself, its all one circle, or better: one point, without anything second. We dream this conception of energy, and like freezing water turns into snow and ice, this lended energy for a limited sequence in this dream's ever running images condensates into a more solid format, making it the matter of things and the word being. But when the sequences is over, we have to give it back , and the million things vanish again into the never-ending flow of the images. Some people may have fear of this and think they can save themselves by trying to stop this, trying to grab the images they associated with their life, their "self": but we are not the images, nor is our life the images: its is the images moving on, that is what life is. Hang to your life, therefore means loosing it.

Thus my advise to you is: take note of your worries and concerns, but do not hang on to them, let them flow on and watch them come and go. Do not desire to speed them up or to slow them down, do not emotionally react. The flowing pictures is the nature of our mind, there is no sense in seeking calm places and wishing for a contemplatory lifestyle, or meditating in quiteness without moving and trying to bring the flowing images in your mind to a standstill. In Zen they call this misled understanding of spiritual practice the trap of the dead void. And many people fall for it, believe me, I had to deal with this a lot (I taught meditation for 15 years and counseled on spiritual crisis and questions). A good teacher will notice it and will not let his student get away with that, and do anything needed to crash him and get him out of that false understanding of "meditation": its only a lifeless standstill where the air becomes stale and the brain starts rotting and turning green and black. There were occasions where I turned extremely rude just to break into and shattering the cosy nest somebody had created for his dozing mind (twice I even hit people :) ). There is no pardon, not when it comes to life or death! An enlightenment that only lasts in the stillness of one's own cabin or the meditation hall, but fades when turning for the noise and dirt and stress and action of the "world", is no enlightenment at all, but just another dream of the last night that fades when the sun goes up. Beware teachers wanting to lure people into spiritual practices and secluded lifestyles! There is nothing that can be gained by that, and there is no different kinds of mind, freedom, there is no separation between profane and sacral, there is nothing "holy".

Live on your life and do not mind for what your end may look like, Markus. You have all the present moment there is, and there is nothing beyond that: for what you remember to have been, is no more, and you remember it only in the present, and what you fear or hope for, is not yet, and you hope for it or fear it in the present. It is not so much the things that troubles our minds, but our expectations of them. Answers find him who is open and ready for them, and who is not, can ask as much as he wants, they will avoid him. You cannot be early and you cannot be late. You can only be right on time.

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A25-36&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23310a)]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (Matthew 6:25-34)

Bon voyage, Markus. This quest is for you. Avoid it, and you will regret it. Take on it, and you might get delightfully surprised.

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mapuc

12-04-18, 05:46 PM

^ Thank you so much Skybird. I will remember some of your advise when I get those thought about death and how I may die.

This thread was not just about me, even thou I have given my expression I have had about this and some of my worries.

It was also about the thought about death and afterlife people may have when they have reached a certain age.

As mentioned before I can't be the only one who have had these thoughts which have become more present now that I have passed 50(I'm 53)then I was 27 years old.

Edit I forgot this in your lastest response

"
I think we modern people in the West have a very pathological relation to death, and it does not serve us well, nor is there dignity in it. We run away and pretend to be young, and behave like younger people - that we are no more since long. That is very immature, imo, and is a life driven by fear, fear of death and fear to miss something. But our life will never be complete, and there will always be a plethora of things that we miss and will not finish. One wave shows up and disappears, or it simply turns into another wave that it meets, opens up in it, or the ocean just flattens out for a moment
"
I'm as mentioned above, 53, I have no intention to get or try to get younger, to avoid death or run away from it.

Markus

Skybird

12-04-18, 08:04 PM

I'm as mentioned above, 53, I have no intention to get or try to get younger, to avoid death or run away from it.

I did not mean you specifically, individually, when saying that, I was about pointing out a detail that is quite common in contemporary Zeitgeist. This idea that one could cheat on death (and life, for that matter). This obsession to optimise yourself. This fixiation on physical shine and health alone, food, sports. The idea that it is good when you become the slave of your app that controls your daily life by statistics and timetables, and turns you into a remote controlled spoirts and eating puppet and makes you do what others think is best for you. Very old people dressing up like 20 year old. :03:

Rockstar

12-04-18, 08:58 PM

I'm 57, I've heard that on your death bed your life will flash before eyes. So make it an eventful one that puts a smile on your face. :03:

btw, well said SkyBird. :up:

Buddahaid

12-04-18, 09:21 PM

Having experienced both of my parents deaths in the past couple of years I have no fear of death. I fear becoming old, confused, and dependent more.

An afterlife? I'll take Navajo Sky Dancers coming for me.

Eichhörnchen

12-05-18, 03:23 AM

I'm with Steve on the 'God' thing... it's not simply a craven fear of the Almighty that keeps myself and my friends from murdering everybody around us, just the simple civilised desire to be decent

Aside from that issue, I note this week that the finger-wagging brigade have been on our backs again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46439892

To which my answer is this other news story:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/dec/03/australian-cycling-mourns-death-of-much-loved-commentator-paul-sherwen

This guy was an athlete and younger than me... now he's dead from heart failure

Eisenwurst

12-05-18, 04:48 AM

We had an Attorney General in Sydney in the '80s, Paul Landa, super fit athlete he was. He dropped dead on the Squash Court one day at quite a young age. Heart Attack, he pushed himself too hard.

Every year we've got a "Fun Run", the city to Bondi Beach, quite a few miles up and down hills, big prizemoney. A mate of mine went in it and the guy in front of him just collapsed and died. Heart Attack. Every years there's fatalities.

People take their fitness too seriously, they're too extreme. Whatever happened to "Everything in Moderation"????

The only exercise I used to get was walking across Maccas carpark to the counter, and now it's down to the park to smoke a couple of cigars and enjoy the scenery :) ( Eich.. knows what I mean ).

It's not healthy, who cares. I'm not scared of Death. Everyone I care about has passed away. Afterlife or No??? It waits for us all.

Aktungbby

12-05-18, 10:20 AM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg
https://gfx.tarot.com/images/site/decks/rider/full_size/13.jpg LET'S STAY ON TOPIC, SHALL WE! :O:

raymond6751

12-05-18, 02:31 PM

I used to be an non-believer, on the basis that any God that let terrible things happen to good people - when he/she has the power to stop it - is no God of mine.

Now, in my late 60's, I realize that God doesn't make bad things happen - he just makes all things possible, both good and bad.

Long, long ago, he made his Universal plan - not just for us. All the chemistry, biology, physics, and math that goes into keeping this old place running were laid out. If the right mix of elements, chemicals, or conditions are present - things happen.

Since the universe is never used up, nor is anything in it, life also re-cycles for us and for all manner of living things - everywhere.

I like to think there is a constant life force or pool in the universe. That is where all new life comes from, and where it returns. All living things contain souls from that pool. Think about this, even a rock is made up of living things - molecules and atoms and who knows what. Constantly cycling and containing energy - the energy of God.

I'm not fool enough to think I have knowledge to explain how it all works, it just does. Nobody has ever come back, except in here say. But, I think it possible that we all have been back many, many times already.
:03:

August

12-05-18, 04:25 PM

vienna

12-05-18, 07:14 PM

I'm going to be 68 in a couple of weeks and I've come very close to death several times; in 2004, I had major surgery after which the surgeon told me that when the ambulance brought me into the ER, I was circling the drain anf there was a fear I wouldn't survive the operation. I'm not religious and I'm still not. I had a couple of dreams in the past where I died and, both times, the moment of death was just a void, nothing to see, hear, feel, or connect with, just emptiness; at that point I would wake up. When I had that 2004 surgery, I do recall fleeting moments in the time leading up to the surgery; I recall being wheeled into the OR and the couple of minutes up to the doctor putting me under; what was interesting was, as I dutifully counted backwards, there was a sudden blackness, identical to my dreams, and I remember vividly thinking to myself how I'd been here before; after what seemed like or two or three minutes of ruminating over the void I was in, I finally lost consciousness. When I did come out from under, with the doctor slapping me in the face to try and revive me (oh, I would have pounded him, if I could have raised my arms :haha:), I thought back to that void and realized I missed it now...

Life is a bit of an ongoing crap shoot: there's always something out there that might do you in; and the idea that a healthy lifestyle is an assurance of long life, as in a game of craps, its a fire bet, a long shot to hit. Look at James Fix, the guy who popularized running and jogging for fitness; he died at age 52, of a sudden heart attack, while on a run. Or look at John Ritter, the actor who was famed for his physical comedy; he did countless pratfalls, tumbles, and committed general mayhem to his body over the course of his career and was still considered to be in pretty god shape; he died of a tear in his aorta suffered while he was filming a sitcom. It all just a roll of the dice...

There was an actor from the Golden Era of Hollywood named George Sanders. Aside from his acting, he is know for how he died; he committed suicide:

Final years and death

Sanders suffered from dementia, worsened by waning health, and visibly teetered in his last films, owing to a loss of balance. According to Aherne's biography, he also had a minor stroke. Sanders could not bear the prospect of losing his health or needing help to carry out everyday tasks and became deeply depressed. At about this time he found that he could no longer play his grand piano, so he dragged it outside and smashed it with an axe. His last girlfriend persuaded him to sell his beloved house in Majorca, Spain, which he later bitterly regretted. From then on he drifted.

On 23 April 1972, Sanders checked into a hotel in Castelldefels, a coastal town near Barcelona. He died of a cardiac arrest two days later, after swallowing the contents of five bottles of the barbiturate Nembutal. He left behind three suicide notes, one of which read:

Dear World, I am leaving because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool. Good luck.

Sanders's body was returned to Britain for funeral services. He was cremated and his ashes were scattered in the English Channel.

David Niven wrote in Bring on the Empty Horses (1975), the second volume of his memoirs, that in 1937 his friend George Sanders had predicted that he would commit suicide from a barbiturate overdose when he was 65 and that in his 50s he had appeared to be depressed since his marriages had failed and several tragedies had befallen him.

I am not suicidal myself, but I can appreciate the desire to avoid boredom and incapacity. Myself, I have the position that there are still a lot of people I haven't pissed off yet, so I feel I still have a calling...

As for an afterlife, I feel, given the standards by which the Judaeo-Christian God and other sundry deities have imposed on mortal man, damned few, if any are going to make the cut for the upward path; I'm pretty certain if I did ,it would be cause for a call to review the selection process for possible deficiencies...

Who knows? Maybe, one day, I'll just get damned tired of it all, say the hell with it all and seek out that void...

<O>

Rockstar

12-05-18, 08:32 PM

A few years ago it occurred to me -- albeit with some shock to my scientific sensibilities -- that my two problems, that of a life‑breeding universe, and that of consciousness that can neither be identified nor located, might be brought together. That would be with the thought that mind, rather than being a late development in the evolution of organisms, had existed always: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.
I have been in experimental science long enough to know that when you have done an experiment that comes out surprisingly well, the thing to do is enjoy it, because the next time you try it, it may not work. So when this idea struck me, I was elated, I enjoyed it immensely. But I was also embarrassed, because this idea violated all my scientific feelings. It took only a few weeks, however, for me to realize that I was in excellent company. That kind of thought is not only deeply embedded in millenia‑old Eastern philosophies; it is stated explicitly or strongly implied in the writings of a number of great and quite recent physicists. - George Wald

Now what happens to the state of ones mind, conscience or if you prefer to call it soul is only known by those who have shed the so called cocoon.

Skybird

12-06-18, 04:37 AM

Usually the existence and operation of a brain is seen as precondition for a "mind". I once puzzled one of my profs at university when claiming it is the other way around, maybe, that mind is the reason why there is a brain.

However, I think one needs to separate two things here. Cosmic/universal mind/divinity, and individual consciousness. I have no doubt that when i die, all what characterises me as an individual entitity, my own mind, my self-awareness, comes to an end, to a state of non-existence like before.

However, there might be "mind" in the meaning of a higher order. The divine sparkle. The eros that brings cosmos into life - and cosmos being the precondition for the logos of individuality.

Buddha once was asked whether there is an individual soul surviving death, and he denied it, very clearly. The Buddhist teaching of Athman and Anathman - self and non-self - is about this difference: that our individual self is not our real self, but only a passing entity of limited durability, an illusion, and when it dies, what remains is the real, bigger self that is all and always has been and always will be: the face we had before our birth, to lend a Zen wording. Jesus talked of the wheat grain that has to die if it wants to bring rich harvest. Christian mystics talked of the "mystical death" (of the ego) as precondition to win the everlasting life (realisation of the real own divine nature). Luke wrote: "The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed. Nor can one say "Look, here!" or "There it is!", for behold, the kingdom of God is within your. (Luke 17:20-21). Meister Eckhart wrote: "If God is to be seen, it must be in the light that is God himself. The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me: my eye and God'S eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing and one love."

That all gives "incarnation" a whole new twist. The common, generally used understanding of it, imo is a simplification that does more harm than good and is not just simplified, but indeed misleading.

Best expressed it all is maybe in the Japanese Enso:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ens%C5%8D

In the end, the greatest mystery of all still lasts: Why is there anythign at all, why is there not just - Nothing? Why is all this show and drama taking place, where does it come from? And most important and relevant for all of us: Who is it who watches all this, reads this text, thunks of himself as "This is me"? Just to say "BANG!" is a bit too infantile, for my taste. The Big Bang theory describes the How, not the Why, so do all other cosmological theories.

Sailor Steve

12-06-18, 07:57 AM

I am not suicidal myself, but I can appreciate the desire to avoid boredom and incapacity. Myself, I have the position that there are still a lot of people I haven't pissed off yet, so I feel I still have a calling...

As for an afterlife, I feel, given the standards by which the Judaeo-Christian God and other sundry deities have imposed on mortal man, damned few, if any are going to make the cut for the upward path; I'm pretty certain if I did ,it would be cause for a call to review the selection process for possible deficiencies...

Who knows? Maybe, one day, I'll just get damned tired of it all, say the hell with it all and seek out that void...
When I was 21 some circumstances in my life caused me to contemplate suicide. When I say "contemplate" I don't mean I planned on doing it, but that I thought about it long and hard, considering all the possibilities and likelihoods from every angle I could think of. My conclusion then was that there were still possibilities I hadn't thought of - tomorrow I might find my dream job, my dream girl, or any number of other good things that might be waiting around the corner.

Now, almost fifty years later, I never got that job, never had that life, and I'm suffering from depression more and more each year. I still laugh every time I visit the VA hospital and the first thing they ask is "Have you had any thoughts of harming yourself?" I always answer "No", and it's true. I haven't. One day I started contemplating the whole thing over again, and finally came to realize the awful truth: I'm a coward. No matter how bad things get I won't give up, not because I believe something good might happen tomorrow - I'm far beyond that - but because after years of being a believer, and years of trying to prove my beliefs, I came to the conclusion that I don't have any answers and nobody else has convinced me that they do. I don't know what's on the other side, if anything, and I'm in no hurry to find out.

Skybird

12-06-18, 09:02 AM

When I was 21 some circumstances in my life caused me to contemplate suicide. When I say "contemplate" I don't mean I planned on doing it, but that I thought about it long and hard, considering all the possibilities and likelihoods from every angle I could think of. My conclusion then was that there were still possibilities I hadn't thought of - tomorrow I might find my dream job, my dream girl, or any number of other good things that might be waiting around the corner.

Now, almost fifty years later, I never got that job, never had that life, and I'm suffering from depression more and more each year. I still laugh every time I visit the VA hospital and the first thing they ask is "Have you had any thoughts of harming yourself?" I always answer "No", and it's true. I haven't. One day I started contemplating the whole thing over again, and finally came to realize the awful truth: I'm a coward. No matter how bad things get I won't give up, not because I believe something good might happen tomorrow - I'm far beyond that - but because after years of being a believer, and years of trying to prove my beliefs, I came to the conclusion that I don't have any answers and nobody else has convinced me that they do. I don't know what's on the other side, if anything, and I'm in no hurry to find out.
Plain, sober reasoning there, Steve. Cowardice, that you implied, has little to do with it, me thinks. You are more a stoic, or a Vulcan, than a coward.

u crank

12-06-18, 09:38 AM

...I came to the conclusion that I don't have any answers and nobody else has convinced me that they do. I don't know what's on the other side, if anything, and I'm in no hurry to find out.

:D

Best comment I've read in this thread so far.:yep:

AVGWarhawk

12-06-18, 09:38 AM

It is not so much death that concerns me, it is those that continue on. Specifically my wife. Leaving enough money she will not need to worry about anything.

Sharkstooth

12-06-18, 10:14 AM

Rockstar

12-06-18, 10:47 AM

There's going to come a time when the light of neighboring galaxies will dip below the horizon never to be seen from earth again. All our descendants will have is our writings which described a once grand and expansive universe filled with energy, movement and light.

Considering the amount of time which has already passed how much information have we missed or will never know firsthand? The way I see it from Beresheit to the Epic of Gilgamesh to the teachings of Buddha I think all draw their material from a common source. They simply diverge in the retelling. Its all the information we have from time past. I tend see a certain degree of truth in all of them.

ExFishermanBob

12-06-18, 11:34 AM

Life's tough, then you die.

You never remember falling asleep until you wake up, nor did you know that you were asleep until you woke. Death will be like that, but you will not wake up. There will be no 'you' to know that you are dead, nor that you even died.

As for religions, gods, goddesses, fairies, whatever: anything that might happen after death (including decomposition) will be entirely natural and entirely unaffected by anything you have or have not done while alive. It will apply equally to all - that is only logical. Life and thought require energy and physical presence: you will have neither. There will be nothing: fear of the process is logical, not wanting to cease existence is logical, fear of *being* dead is not.

And yes, as you get older, you think about death more: to me, it is what I will miss out on: settlements on the Moon and Mars, grandchildren and so on. But that's yearning, not fear.

Sailor Steve

12-06-18, 01:15 PM

What if......
Hey, Sharks, long time. I've missed you.

AVGWarhawk

12-06-18, 01:28 PM

What if......

The light that people who have touched death see, is the lights of a hospital delivery room as you are being born.
The reason babies are crying is because of the life, loves, etc that they just lost.
They cannot talk while they remember and gradually lose their memories, and by the time we can talk, memories are gone...cept for once in a while....and those are called Deja vu.

Not necessarily my beliefs, merely a ‘what if’

Interesting take...plausible? :hmmm:

Mr Quatro

12-06-18, 01:30 PM

Come on man! Don't you people believe in ghost busters?

http://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/36/20/1249576394-the-best-ghostbusters-quotes.jpg

http://www.hippoquotes.com/img/ghostbusters-quotes-janine/de34c1c630ddfa6c36ad38d03d722507.jpg

Rockstar

12-06-18, 04:04 PM

Sharkstooth

12-06-18, 04:17 PM

Hey Sailor!!

I come in every so often...just making sure...
I’ve been great, how bout you?
Good to see your smilin’ face!
:D

Skybird

12-06-18, 04:25 PM

Near-Death-Experiences are not for no reason called not Death-Experiences, but merely Near-Death-Experiences.

There now is a huge empirical observation database of , or literature on, NDEs, what they look like in different cultures. There is a general pattern: the experiences of levitating over one's own body, travelling through a tunnel, sometimes the tunnel already being of light, or a light waiting at the end of the tunnel. There is a culture-specific component: people in india tend to see visualizations of religious gods and symbols common in India, Westerners tend to see visualizations of Jesus and have associations with Western cultural elements. That is the main pattern. This main pattern does not point at anything beyond culture-specific contexts, or general physical conditions of being near to death, although they include sometimes perplexing events like beign able to quote days later what people have said in another room since one levitating alter ego was flying into the other oomand overheard that conversation, and witnesses in reality later indeed confirm it. The levitating phenomenon in itself attracts great interest, of course. The quality of the soothign effect of the light does as well. But both may be two very different things, maybe. The levitation thing may hint at unknown skills the human mind is capable of (there are rumours ab out Lamas in Tibet who were able to walk through solid walls, now compare that with views of modern nuclear and quantum physics: empty space and all that...), the soothing light may be comptrabale to the tranqulization effect that blocks the recognition of pain in the brain in case of beign seriously injured in case of a shockingly quick happening accident.

That any of that, incuding the light at the end of the tunnel, is an objective description of the state of being dead, is pure, unneeded speculation. We know however, that dying is a process, and its true stadiums and duration is not fully understood in mdedicine, the alteraiton of the death criterion in the pasdt deacdes is not owed to insight into death, but progresses made in tranbsplantaiton medicine that demanded people whose organs are to be taken are not as dead anymore as they before were allowed to be in order to call them "dead" indeed. Last years however showed medicine that dying may be more complex than we have once thought in Western tradition (remember I brought this arument already in the tghread about organs donating ? ;) , remember also that other cultures and traditions often do not share the former simplified modern Western view on death ) The Bardo Thödol however describes, if I recall it correctly (I am not certain anymore) 49 phases of dying, phases of passing through death. Shamans sometimes see death as a voyage.

My guts feeling tells me that in the West we see it quite wrong, simplified, and subordinated to the needs and demands of modern medicine. But that is just my believing. I will not base a serious argument on that belief.

Lets keep speculation and observation separate. And I say that as somebody who has had strange, NDE-like experiences twice himself, during meditation. Yes, it was reassuring, yes it was not unpleasant, yes it was extraordinary. Still I forbid myself to take them beyond the point where one indeed is fully "dead". What have they done for me? A soothing on my fear of life as well as my fear of dying, else it is the same life with its same problems that waited for me once I was done with those experiences, and them were done with me. A gain for me, yes, but nothing that shakes the Earth or changed everything right down to the fundaments. Observation is this, speculation is that. Two different things. Keep it separate. Quite some researchers would argue for example that the body may have its neural and chemical tricks to make the in principle terrifying expoerience of dying a more relaxed one. I know pro-NDE-speakers have some arguments, some cases that contradict this medical view (yes, I mentioned that - indirectly at last - as well in that organ-donation thread). Again: observation, speculation. We do not know for sure. Believing is not knowing.

I think being sober and as rational as possible when thinking on all this, is like a lifeline. Its easy to get lost in all those dwelling fantasies and tempting, colourful images. Be Vulcan!

Rockstar

12-06-18, 05:41 PM

6
Be Vulcan!

Im more of the emotional Captain Kirk type. ;)

https://i.gifer.com/9Tyi.gif
https://i.gifer.com/EF6a.gif

mapuc

12-06-18, 06:20 PM

Your replies are very interesting to read.

Markus

Sailor Steve

12-06-18, 10:58 PM

Hey Sailor!!

I come in every so often...just making sure...
I’ve been great, how bout you?
Good to see your smilin’ face!
:D
Survivin'. Playing music, building models, playing SH3 and now WOFF (WW1 aeroplanes), talking about death. You know, pretty much the same as always. :sunny:

Sharkstooth

12-07-18, 11:02 AM

Seems youre doing well....:D

Playing SH3, hmmmm ...they have an app for ipad? :hmmm: rarely ever fire up my pc anymore and when i do, have no games nor art programs on it.... boring!!

Sailor Steve

12-07-18, 12:10 PM

Don't know. PC is the only computer I use, for work, games, writing, video, everything.

Mr Quatro

12-07-18, 01:22 PM

Seems youre doing well....:D

Playing SH3, hmmmm ...they have an app for ipad? :hmmm: rarely ever fire up my pc anymore and when i do, have no games nor art programs on it.... boring!!

I think Sharky left one of these under my bed the last time she was here :oops:

https://www.bing.com/th?id=OP.yDQq1uOEQ6LPGw474C474&w=180&h=150&rs=1&o=5&pid=21.1

em2nought

12-07-18, 01:32 PM

Sean C

12-08-18, 12:44 AM

Religion also has different forms of rewards and promises such as the Muslims for being a martyr and receiving 72 virgins or a Buddha lover or a Hindu lover and believing in reincarnation.

I don't know about Hinduism, but the Buddha's teachings on reincarnation were just a metaphor for our ever changing emotional states. We are constantly being "reborn" into different "realms" (anger, greed, ignorance, jealousy, self-indulgence, etc.) This is why we suffer.

The word "nirvana" literally means "cooling" - and in this context it means "a cooling of the fires of emotion". So, to achieve nirvana means to remain in a state of peace and end the cycle of "rebirth" into other emotional states. The Buddha even said that most people will achieve a fleeting form of nirvana at various times during their life. The hard part is to stay there.

I don't write this to be "preachy" about Buddhism ... but as a Buddhist I felt compelled to clarify.

When I was 21 some circumstances in my life caused me to contemplate suicide. When I say "contemplate" I don't mean I planned on doing it, but that I thought about it long and hard, considering all the possibilities and likelihoods from every angle I could think of. My conclusion then was that there were still possibilities I hadn't thought of - tomorrow I might find my dream job, my dream girl, or any number of other good things that might be waiting around the corner.

I have had this same experience.

There's going to come a time when the light of neighboring galaxies will dip below the horizon never to be seen from earth again. All our descendants will have is our writings which described a once grand and expansive universe filled with energy, movement and light.

Considering the amount of time which has already passed how much information have we missed or will never know firsthand? The way I see it from Beresheit to the Epic of Gilgamesh to the teachings of Buddha I think all draw their material from a common source. They simply diverge in the retelling. Its all the information we have from time past. I tend see a certain degree of truth in all of them.

My greatest wish is that, after I die, whatever is left of me will transcend space and time and be able to move through both at will. I long to see the events of the past as they really were, such as the building of the pyramids and what is responsible for so many stories of a "great flood", etc. Of course, just like everyone else, I know nothing about what will actually happen when I die. But I believe that as long as I try as hard as I can to be kind to every other living being and to take care of this world for future generations - then I have nothing to worry about.

I hope, as others have expressed and as anyone would, that my physical death is as painless as possible. But in the times that I have suffered in the past, I have taken refuge in the thought that nothing is permanent. No matter what my situation is at any given time - "this too, shall pass". All I have to do is hang in there until things change. And they will always change. What happens next is a mystery - and I find that exciting.

Sharkstooth

12-08-18, 12:10 PM

I think Sharky left one of these under my bed the last time she was here :oops:

https://www.bing.com/th?id=OP.yDQq1uOEQ6LPGw474C474&w=180&h=150&rs=1&o=5&pid=21.1

Ha.....I know exactly where every single one of my heels are....they’re like my children!
How exactly do I know you Mr. Quatro?:hmmm:

Mork_417

12-14-18, 05:12 PM

When it comes to thinking about death, i don't really think about it that much these days compared to when i was a young boy. However, my thoughts/fears were never in regard to myself, but rather i had a fear of others getting hurt or passing away. Might have something to do with my upbringing, not sure.

As i'm sure with some of you, i've had a some close calls, two of which I was sure the game was over. None of them involved fear, but rather thoughts of how to get out of the current predicament. Then waking up, immediately taking assessment of the outcome, and analyzing what i might could have done to avoid it.

Religion does nothing for me, and while i enjoy the thought of an after life, or a soul for story & entertainment purposes, i don't believe in either of them.

As for my fear for others, as i grew older i came to terms that i can't prevent bad things from happening when i'm not there. If it's within my sphere of influence i do the best i can, and that's all i can do.

One of my favorite quotes regarding death is from an anime...
"Man always thinks about the past before he dies, as if he were frantically searching for proof that he truly lived." - Jet Black (Cowboy Bebop)

BrucePartington

12-14-18, 07:40 PM

Death worried me when I had dependents. Not anymore. My only concern now is not suffering as I go down the drain.

Thinking about death becomes more recurrent after, say, 50, because we are aware of the increasing likelihood of it. Our bodies slowly start to fall apart (as we finally get our heads together).

I think it is only natural to fear death. As living beings, we are hard-wired for self-preservation. And this is why suicide is so difficult: anyone contemplating suicide is going against their most basic and fierce instincts. It's in our genes to fight to stay alive.

Regarding any other considerations and speculations, I subscribe to NdGT:" The only absolute truths are the laws of physics, everything else is just opinion."

mapuc

12-15-18, 06:41 PM

First of all, thank you for your comments

BrucePartington mentioned why we the human feel the Death become more personal or more present after a certain age.
( I take his statement as a theory, cause I guess there are a lot of them)

Which was one of my question- Why does we feel it more personal or present after a certain age.

Markus

Sailor Steve

12-16-18, 12:06 AM

Because when you're young you are in the best health you will ever be, and natural death is many decades away. You feel immortal. While accidents can happen, they always happen to somebody else.

Death seems a lot closer when people you have known for years are dying of "natural causes" and the reality is that you will die sooner than later. My grandfather died after a brief bout with pneumonia at age 72. My dad made it to 84, and I think that at my age he was in better health than I am. Even if I live to the same age, that's only 16 years away. It seems more real because it is more real. It's a lot closer than it used to be.

Rockstar

12-16-18, 08:52 AM

Sailor Steve

12-16-18, 10:37 AM

As much as I enjoy what NdGT has to say. I wouldn't call the laws of physics an absolute truth, its IMO more like an evolving logical system of thought. I also believe NdGT said eye witness accounts of certain experiences are the least form of evidence. But no matter how you slice it and dice it is still evidence.
First, it would have been nice if you had used the man's full name just once, so everybody wouldn't have to look all over the place to find out what you're even talking about. Markus may not have a clue who Neil deGrasse Tyson is, let alone anything he may or may not have said.

Second, I have to ask what this line of argument has to do with the topic at hand.

Third, Tyson was far from the first person to say that. It's a common subject for discussion in law classes as well as philosophy.

Lastly, given what I think you've said, I have to disagree. Just because one person, or many, claim to have seen the same thing or had the same experience, it doesn't mean that experience is real. It is worth looking into, just on the chance that it is, but it's also wise to consider that a similar experience may stem from a similar reaction to an influence rather than an actual event. You say it's still evidence, but evidence of what?

Skybird

12-16-18, 12:22 PM

Witness accounts at court are not taken as evidence, becasue they are just subjective claim. And the memory can err, malfunction, subject to intoxication, bioneural effects, psychological processes attaching post-effect processing :) ...

Own experience is just this: a subjective view of something. It can nevertheless unfold a strong motivational effect for the one who made the experience, but thats all. It is no objective evidence.

mapuc

12-16-18, 12:31 PM

Off topic

As a big fan of science especially The Univers and quantum mechanics I do know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is.

I was unaware that NdGT in fact was Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Markus

End of off topic

Platapus

12-16-18, 06:48 PM

Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down

Reece

12-16-18, 07:34 PM

Make the most of it!!:yep:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlimsySlushyAffenpinscher-small.gif

Rockstar

12-17-18, 10:02 AM

First, it would have been nice if you had used the man's full name just once, so everybody wouldn't have to look all over the place to find out what you're even talking about. Markus may not have a clue who Neil deGrasse Tyson is, let alone anything he may or may not have said. Stay on topic please. we already have one internet crusader so stop presuming what others know or dont know and telling others how they should write or think. We're all big boys and girls here if YOU dont know something a simple question who or what is NdGT would have sufficed. My response was directed to BP's use of the same initials posted above.

Second, I have to ask what this line of argument has to do with the topic at hand. Read page one started by Mapuc. It has to do with death, thoughts, fears etc.

Third, Tyson was far from the first person to say that. It's a common subject for discussion in law classes as well as philosophy.Whats your point?

Lastly, given what I think you've said, I have to disagree. Just because one person, or many, claim to have seen the same thing or had the same experience, it doesn't mean that experience is real. It is worth looking into, just on the chance that it is, but it's also wise to consider that a similar experience may stem from a similar reaction to an influence rather than an actual event. You say it's still evidence, but evidence of what? What is real what is not? Eye witness evidence is when someone says they witnessed or in this case experienced something. Can it be supported or corroborated ? I'm afraid only by others with similar experiences which leaves the rest of the world wondering. But it doesn't make what the person experienced any less real. It does directly challenge the other never proven concept that consciousness and memories are localized in the brain. If consciousness is not within the brain not built of flesh and blood then it is not confined by the vitality of the brain. I'm of the opinion the mind/consciousness/soul or what whatever you want to call it doesn't die with the brain. And you know what? It's OK if you dont agree with that nor do I expect you too.

Sailor Steve

12-17-18, 12:13 PM

Stay on topic please...My response was directed to BP's use of the same initials posted above.
Fair enough. My whole response was based on the idea that you brought up Tyson in the first place. In a careful search of the whole thread I still managed to miss that it had been posted before. My bad.

Read page one started by Mapuc. It has to do with death, thoughts, fears etc.
On that I still disagree. To me it seems that you were talking not about death but about proving a point about evidence.

[/quote]Whats your point?[/quote]
My point was that you brought up Tyson and his philosophy out of the blue, with no regard to what went before. But, as said, I missed the post you were responding to, so my point was misplaced. Again, I apologize.

What is real what is not? Eye witness evidence is when someone says they witnessed or in this case experienced something. Can it be supported or corroborated ? I'm afraid only by others with similar experiences which leaves the rest of the world wondering. But it doesn't make what the person experienced any less real.
True, but observations and experiments involving psychosis indicate that not all perceived experiences are real.

It does directly challenge the other never proven concept that consciousness and memories are localized in the brain.
You say "never proven", but thus far nothing has been shown that awareness and thought exist without a brain.

If consciousness is not within the brain not built of flesh and blood then it is not confined by the vitality of the brain.
And yet it has been shown unequivocally that damage to the brain has a direct effect on functions involving thought.

I'm of the opinion the mind/consciousness/soul or what whatever you want to call it doesn't die with the brain. And you know what? It's OK if you dont agree with that nor do I expect you too.
As I said, damage to the brain has been shown to have a direct effect on consciousness. I find it unreasonable to expect that the ultimate damage - the brain shutting down, then decaying to dust - would result in anything other than complete loss of mental processes. When a severely brain-damaged person dies, is functionality somehow mystically restored to live forever in perfect awareness?

Do near-death experiences indicate that there really is something beyond this life? Or are they simply the result of oxygen starvation that is suddenly reversed? I don't claim to know anything about it, but barring any testable evidence I don't believe anything, one way or the other.

Rockstar

12-18-18, 09:50 AM

And yet it has been shown unequivocally that damage to the brain has a direct effect on functions involving thought.

As I said, damage to the brain has been shown to have a direct effect on consciousness. I find it unreasonable to expect that the ultimate damage - the brain shutting down, then decaying to dust - would result in anything other than complete loss of mental processes. When a severely brain-damaged person dies, is functionality somehow mystically restored to live forever in perfect awareness?"Despite zillions of us slaving away at the subject, we still don't know squat about how the brain works" - Dr. Robert Sapolsky

"Nobody understands how decisions are made or how imagination is set free. What consciousness consists of, or how it should be defined, is equally puzzling. Despite the marvelous successes of neuroscience in the past century, we seem as far from understanding cognitive processes as were a century ago" - Sir John Maddox

One must locate human consciousness/awareness before it can be said brain damage has a direct affect on. The puzzle in the mind brain interface is not in the recording of and bio-chemical storage of incoming sensory data. That's brain work. The puzzle is in the replay, there is no hint in the brain of how you hear or see or what you have heard or seen. There is nosound in your brain. Put a stethoscope to your head and all you will hear is the gurgle of blood rushing through the veins. No voices, no music but you hear voices and you hear music. But where is unknown. The identical biochemical reaction that in one part of the brain that store inputs related tothe sounds we hear in another location record the sights we see. But its all chemistry and even more mind bending its all the SAME chemistry. Obviously thats how we percieve the chemistry. The mystery is the the location of that perception. Maybe an NDE or brain damge is similar too smashing the reciever the radio waves are still there. Then again, maybe not! :haha:

Do near-death experiences indicate that there really is something beyond this life? Or are they simply the result of oxygen starvation that is suddenly reversed? I don't claim to know anything about it, but barring any testable evidence I don't believe anything, one way or the other. I prefer to ponder the possibilities. From the burial of Abraham, the story of Er to the peer reviewd medical journal Lancet which in 2001 published the "never proven concept that consciousness and memories are located in the brain should be discussed" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)07100-8/fulltext . (you can find the full text on other websites but I fear if I linked to them I would be accused of being ignorant, religious or new age by crusaders.) :03::D

Oh almost forgot. Sir Roger Penrose has some pretty kewl theories on youtube concerning the quantum nature of consciousness. Though he has his critics Sir Roger Penrose is no slouch, the guy is a real genius.