jamal Khashoggi murdered by Saudi agents

[Bilge_Rat]

This seems to have passed without much coverage, but Jamal Khashoggi, saudi arabian dissident and columnist for the Washington Post has apparently been murdered by Saudis. Khashoggi entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey last week for some routine paperwork and never came back out. The running theory is that he was murdered in the consulate by Saudi agents.


Needless to say this is shaping up into a major diplomatic issue between Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45775819

[Bleiente]

:06:

[Catfish]

It is all over the news here.

Nice that such great democrats like Erdoghan protest so loudly about the killing of a foreign journalist, who has been critical of his own government. There are thousands of critical turkish journalists now being incarcerated or being killed in Turkey along with teachers and scientists, thanks to Erdoghan. Hypocrite.

Regarding the protest of the rest of the world... some words and self-righteous indignation for a few days, then back to business and oil deals.

B.t.w. what happened to the chinese head of Interpol?

[Bilge_Rat]

It is all over the news here.



some news about a judge crowded out all the other news over here….:O:

[Catfish]

some news about a judge crowded out all the other news over here….:O:

A judge? Who? :haha:

[Bleiente]

some news about a judge crowded out all the other news over here….:O:
Well ... no wonder, if a criminal is confirmed by other criminals as reputable office.
Formerly called the MAFIA. :03:

Edit:
It is about time that a new authority is founded - similar to and under J. Edgar Hoover - which crashes these criminals and, if necessary, eliminates them for the good of the people.

:yep:

[Ashikaga]

We live in a really polarised world at the moment. Has all the aspects of an interbellum.

We might even experience WW3 in our time.

[Catfish]

Deutschlandfunk Nova, Translation by Google:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de?hl=de?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A//www.deutschlandfunknova.de/beitrag/der-fall-jamal-khashoggi-das-war-mister-saudi-arabia


https://i.imgur.com/HiBRA2y.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

some news about a judge crowded out all the other news over here….:O:

So true :yep: ...

America is just now getting back to normal with other news like a major hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico now making landfall. :o

[mapuc]

My thoughts about this:

If they find evidens he have been killed at the embassy. The only thing that's going to happen is Turkey will expel some diplomats and perhaps some employees from and Saidi Arabia will do the same.

Thereafter the air between these two countries will be very cold.

Second thoughts.

Everyone is saying he have been killed.

Couldn't he have been kidnapped ?

Or
This one I find very unlikely

He have defected

Markus

[August]

..eliminates them for the good of the people.

:yep:


Yeah they could wear black uniforms and jackboots and they could give themselves officious sounding names like "Obergruppenfuhrer",... oh wait, some other country already did that. :roll:

[Jimbuna]

Was all over Fox and BBC news whilst I was away and as far as I'm aware the Saudis may be willing to admit his death was 'accidental' whilst undergoing interrogation :o

[August]

I'm thinking they'll pin it on a patsy. A mid level underling who exceeded orders. The royal family will remain blameless, some underling will get the chop.

[vienna]

Maybe Trump can advise the Saudis to use his favorite whipping boys: Deep State, lying media, Lying Hilary, Lying Bill, Lying Obama, Democrats, CNN, WaPo, etc., etc, ...


...hell, he's got a million excuses, he can spare a few... :D
















<O>

[Aktungbby]

Trump told reporters at the White House that "rogue killers," and not Saudi officials, may have gotten to Khashoggi. The president cited no specific evidence, but noted he had just spoken with Saudi King Salman, who denied that Riyadh was involved.
"I don’t want to get into his mind, but it sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows?" Trump said.....There have been reports of 15 Saudi agents entering Turkey before Khashoggi arrived at the consulate and leaving the country following the journalist's disappearance. https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/FEFD/production/_103877256_gettyimages-935190104.jpgOF COURSE MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN WILL CLAIM ROGUE AGENTS WERE RESPONSIBLE; MY OWN SECRET SOURCES REPORT HE BOUGHT EACH ONE OF THE 15 AGENTS A 'SUITABLE' NEW CAR....
https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/nissan/rogue/2018/oem/2018_nissan_rogue_4dr-suv_sv_rq_oem_2_600.jpg Saudi denials – and deflection – of any knowledge of Khashoggi’s whereabouts read from a Kremlin playbook, as does his alleged death.
Turkey, meanwhile – the world’s most prolific jailer of journalists – now finds itself in the peculiar position of being a champion for a columnist who vanished under it's nose! :haha: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/07/khashoggi-case-against-saudi-agents-reverberates-through-ankara-and-riyadh (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/07/khashoggi-case-against-saudi-agents-reverberates-through-ankara-and-riyadh)

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=553G3ON68BU














<O>

[em2nought]

I heard there's a gofundme to provide more mainstream journalists with free trips to the Saudi Consulate in Turkey. :D

[Bilge_Rat]

well of course the mainstream (aka fake) news media is using this as yet another excuse to attack Trump since of course, everything revolves around Trump, but it turns out France, Britain and of course, Germany, :rolleyes: is also restraining from attacking Saudi Arabia.

While Britain, France and Germany issued a joint statement over the weekend in which they called for a “credible investigation,” none of the three countries have gone beyond the remarks so far voiced by the White House. If anything, they’ve been even less vocal.

While U.S. pressure on Trump has been bipartisan, in Europe, calls to punish Saudi Arabia have mostly come from opposition parties. Britain’s Labour Party pressed the Conservative government over the weekend to stop arms sales to the country “until they changed their ways,” said Labour foreign policy expert Emily Thornberry. While German observers have lashed out at Trump for refusing to punish the Saudis, German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman said the Khashoggi case and German exports to Riyadh were “two unrelated things.”

The European joint statement during the weekend made no reference to possible sanctions, and British Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt later only said that the country would consider an “appropriate way to react” if the Saudis were found to be behind the writer’s disappearance.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/the-european-reaction-to-khashoggi.php

Trump is doing what every other President would do in the same situation, walking the fine line between castigating Saudi Arabia while not throwing the alliance overboard.

We also all know that if Trump was pushing for a severe punishment, i.e, cancelling the arms contract, imposing sanctions, that the mainstream (aka fake) news media would be blaming him for over reacting and reporting on the possible negative impact to the U.S. economy...:haha:

[Jimbuna]

Pompeo meets Erdogan over missing writer.

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has held talks with the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan about missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

The meeting in Ankara comes amid fresh allegations in the Turkish media that Mr Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

On Tuesday, Mr Pompeo met Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman in Riyadh.

He said Saudi Arabia's leaders "strongly denied" involvement in the writer's disappearance.

Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said the meeting had been "beneficial and fruitful".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45887556

[Mr Quatro]

odd that the translation of the transmission of the Apple watch has not made it to the White House via the CIA to inform the President of what happened in that room.

Not on CNN either ... news cover up :hmmm:

I feel sorry for the President having to go it alone against a friend in the Muslim world we can trust to defeat Iran if need so.

[Aktungbby]

THE ONLY WAY OUT FOR THE TWO-FACED PRINCE IS TO SHIP THE 15 AGENTS BACK TO TURKEY FOR ADJUDICATION...OTHERWISE HIS PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY IS....CAMEL DUNG https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-prince.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-prince.html) https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2018/10/16/saudi-hit-squad-mutreb/aefc097e41540efdc96ce969574f71761c29e0d5/mutreb-720.jpg....But the presence among the suspects of an autopsy expert, Dr. Salah al-Tubaigy, suggests that killing might have been part of the original plan. Dr. Tubaigy, who maintained a presence on several social media platforms, identified himself on his Twitter account as the head of the Saudi Scientific Council of Forensics and held lofty positions in the kingdom’s premier medical school as well as in its Interior Ministry. He studied at the University of Glasgow and in 2015 he spent three months in Australia as a visiting forensic pathologist at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine. His published writings include works on dissection and mobile autopsies.

Although there is no public record of a relationship between him and the royal court, such a senior figure in the Saudi medical establishment was unlikely to join a rogue expedition organized by an underling.
Dr. Tubaigy, whose name first appeared among reports of the suspects several days ago, has not publicly addressed the allegations. None of the suspects could be reached for comment.

[Catfish]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/12/recordings-prove-jamal-khashoggi-killed-turkish-investigators-claim

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/17/jamal-khashoggi-pompeo-to-meet-erdogan-as-gory-reports-of-killing-emerge

Dismembered alive, on a desk. And it all has been recorded.
So "embarrassing" when you cannot hide it, eh. :nope:

Saudis are important strategic partners, and oil has to flow. Then, Iran. "Saving face", lmao.

[Jimbuna]

Jamal Khashoggi case: Liam Fox pulls out of Saudi summit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45904904

[eddie]

well of course the mainstream (aka fake) news media is using this as yet another excuse to attack Trump since of course, everything revolves around Trump, but it turns out France, Britain and of course, Germany, :rolleyes: is also restraining from attacking Saudi Arabia.



https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/the-european-reaction-to-khashoggi.php

Trump is doing what every other President would do in the same situation, walking the fine line between castigating Saudi Arabia while not throwing the alliance overboard.

We also all know that if Trump was pushing for a severe punishment, i.e, cancelling the arms contract, imposing sanctions, that the mainstream (aka fake) news media would be blaming him for over reacting and reporting on the possible negative impact to the U.S. economy...:haha:


Oh we got to include Fox News in the aka fake news too. They should be in the agriculture business, they spread so much BS all the time!! But that BS media outlet is the darling of Trump and his Trumpettes, can't say anything bad about it!! Hannity is so full of it, its coming out of his ears, and goofy Trump buys right into it!!:haha::haha:

[em2nought]

John Cardillo



The left is far more concerned that a Saudi national was killed at the Saudi embassy in Turkey than they ever were that four Americans were killed at the American embassy in Benghazi


KERPOW!
http://shinymedia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/kerpow.jpg

[Platapus]

Dismembered alive?

That poor man

[vienna]

John Cardillo






KERPOW!
http://shinymedia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/kerpow.jpg


So, can we expect a more affirmative, decisive response from Trump than was exhibited regarding Benghazi?... :hmmm:

Hmm..., I seem to recall another instance of four Americans killed in a terror attack, soldiers, at that, and it was only a year ago, this month...

Timeline: How the Trump administration responded to the Niger attack --

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/356541-timeline-the-trump-administrations-response-to-the-attack-in-niger


History seems to make the possibility of Trump even doing anything is very, very slim to none...

At least he might, again, be able to get another laugh at the victim's expense:

Trump, aides on tape laugh about Niger ambush that left 4 US soldiers dead --

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/20180910/trump-aides-on-tape-laugh-about-niger-ambush-that-left-4-us-soldiers-dead









<O>

[Jimbuna]

So now we are being told that a fight broke out between Mr Khashoggi, who had fallen out of favour with the Saudi government, and people who met him in the consulate - ending with his death.

This coming from the same source that insisted for over two weeks that he left the consulate alive and well?

I'd be asking precisely what have they done with the body and where are its current whereabouts.

[u crank]

I'd be asking precisely what have they done with the body and where are its current whereabouts.

I have a suspicion that the body has 'disappeared'.

[em2nought]

I'd be asking precisely what have they done with the body and where are its current whereabouts.


Which piece? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Looks like Trump has had yet another change of opinion.

US President Donald Trump says he is "not satisfied" with Saudi Arabia's account of the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45929400

[Platapus]

He might even write a tweet with capitol letters!

[Aktungbby]

I'd be asking precisely what have they done with the body and where are its current whereabouts.

I have a suspicion that the body has 'disappeared'.
THE COUNSEL'S NEARBY RESIDENCE GARDEN NEEDS DIGGING UP?:hmmm: Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb-SEEN EVERYWHERE TO PRINCE GOES MAY BE BE FACING A LITTLE DISMEMBERMENT OF HIS OWN AS HE FACES THE MUSIC FOR 'LISTENING TO TO THE MUSIC' WHILE POOR JAMAL K. 'MET HIS WATERLOO'... So "embarrassing" when you cannot hide it, eh.:nope:
:yep:MY ADVICE TO THE SAUDI'S: NEXT TIME SEND THE 'A' TEAM; NOT THE 'GANG THAT 'CAN'T SLICE STRAIGHT'... AND IN A CONSULATE THAT AIN'T BUGGED SO THOROUGHLY....:doh:

[Skybird]

People's naivety never stops to amaze. He knew he was on the black list of the Saudi regime and he knew he was a thorn in the Saudi flank - why the heck did he enter the lion'S cave without company, or better even without a lawyer? If you poke your arm into the viper's cave, you better have some serum ready.

[Rockstar]

Turkey and Saudi the pot accusing the kettle

Khashoggi was arrested in the embassy before being tortured, killed and dismembered by about 15 Saudi operatives who arrived in Istanbul on a day flight from Riyadh and departed a few hours after Khashoggi's killing. It is hard to believe that the Turkish services, which have always played the double- and triple-crossing game, did not know what was happening. Khashoggi himself had probably received assurances that the Saudi embassy in Istanbul was a safe place to collect the documents. He was obviously betrayed by someone in whom he had strong trust.

Turkey is a strong ally of Qatar and plays a major role in the region. Relations between Riyadh and Ankara have not been the best in recent years, but their common interests in the region are so high that it is not surprising that Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization has closed more than one eye to allow Khashoggi's assassination and the exit of the 15 operatives.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/10/12/killing-saudi-journalist-khashoggi-could-spell-end-for-mohammad-bin-salman.html




Turkey, Saudi Arabia to enhance collaboration on Syrian crisis



"If Ankara, Riyadh and Doha would agree on the 'safe zone' idea that has been voiced by President Erdoğan, it would greatly benefit the people in the region, while also curbing Iran's expansionist policies."


https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/2017/02/15/turkey-saudi-arabia-to-enhance-collaboration-on-syrian-crisis

[Platapus]

So now the story is that 15 rogue agents walked into the consulate and accidentally killed and dismembered this journalist.

Reminds me of

https://y.yarn.co/bb3979a8-bc0d-4dab-9f29-074d7cbd657e.mp4?1540148186308

[Rockstar]

I dont like what happened to Khashoggie anymore than the next fella. But this guy wasn't just some innocent journalist writing about freedom and democracy. He was a player in deep and knew a lot about the games people in power play the funding and arms. From the days fighting the Soviets in Afganistan, 9/11, until the day he walked in the Saudi consulate.



Mess with the bull you get the horns.

[Aktungbby]

^ EXACTLY! I'VE CONSIDERED THAT HE, A LONGTIME PLAYER IN THE GAME, COMMITTED POLITICAL SUICIDE TO ACCOMPLISH THE GOAL OF PERMANENTLY EMBARRASSING THE PRINCE AND SHOWING HIM UP. HE HAD TO HAVE KNOWN AND CONSIDERED ALL THE SCENARIOS AND OUTCOMES BEFORE ENTERING THE CONSULATE... :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

So the answer is: Murder him, dismember the body and dispose of it? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

So the answer is: Murder him, dismember the body and dispose of it? :hmmm:
Depends on the question you ask.

[Rockstar]

So the answer is: Murder him, dismember the body and dispose of it? :hmmm:


In that world which he lived in, I guess so.


The disappearance of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on October 2, 2018, and was never seen leaving it, is a trending topic in the Arabic press, particularly the Saudi press. Khashoggi, whom some Turkish elements surmise was murdered by the Saudis inside the consulate, is a veteran Saudi journalist well known in the Arab world, especially for his criticism of the Saudi regime and his support for the Muslim Brotherhood. In the past year Khashoggi even moved to the U.S. in fear for his life, and began writing a Washington Post column; in it, he was harshly critical of Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman.

https://www.memri.org/reports/disappearance-journalist-jamal-khashoggi-he-disappeared-saudi-press-accused-him-treason-now#_edn3




https://image.slidesharecdn.com/indepenceday-160609140030/95/indepence-day-10-638.jpg?cb=1465480850 https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&


https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/oct/17/treason-act-facts-british-extremists-iraq-syria-isis#img-2 (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/oct/17/treason-act-facts-british-extremists-iraq-syria-isis#img-2)https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/17/1413541468195/b7264d2e-748d-4d17-8daa-e45d9ab1c88b-1249x2040.jpeg?width=300&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

[Jimbuna]

Saudi Arabia has blamed the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi on a "rogue operation", giving a new account of an act that sparked a global outcry.

Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir told Fox News "the murder" had been a "tremendous mistake" and denied the powerful crown prince had ordered it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45935823

Beginning to read like a film script.

[vienna]

...and now, the latest version of the murder from the Saudi Information Minister:


http://forums.somd.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=115180&d=1476371168

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...and now the response from Trump:


https://am14.akamaized.net/med/cnt/uploads/2015/11/donald-trump1-300x1971-300x197.jpg










<O>

[Catfish]

I still wonder why the killing of heads of states is considered as a no-no. Would spare humanity a lot of killing, bribery, blackmailing and nonsense.

[August]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45935823

Beginning to read like a film script.


I called it back on page 1:


I'm thinking they'll pin it on a patsy. A mid level underling who exceeded orders. The royal family will remain blameless, some underling will get the chop.

[Mr Quatro]

Did you see this little story in the news?

https://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-agents-stripped-khashoggi-wore-clothes-cnn-report-2018-10

Saudi agents reportedly stripped Khashoggi's body and walked out of the consulate wearing his clothes after killing him

Surveillance footage CNN published Monday appears to show a man dressed in the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi's clothes leaving the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul and walking around the city on the day Khashoggi disappeared.
The man, identified by Turkish officials as Mustafa al-Madani, apparently wore a fake beard and glasses that made him look more like the journalist.
He is one of 15 suspects Turkish investigators have said were dispatched from Saudi Arabia to Istanbul to confront Khashoggi.

[Platapus]

That was probably also an accident by rogue people.

There seems to be a lot of them running around recently.

[Jimbuna]

Body parts belonging to murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi have been found, according to two Sky sources.

The sources have told Sky News the writer had been "cut up" and his face "disfigured".

One source also suggested Mr Khashoggi's remains were discovered in the garden of the Saudi consul general's home - situated around 500 metres away from the consulate.

It contradicts the explanation being made by Saudi officials that the body was rolled up in a carpet and handed to a local collaborator who was tasked with disposing of the evidence.

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-sources-jamal-khashoggis-body-parts-found-11533202

[Mr Quatro]

So many lies, lie after lie, after lie and the story is still not all out there :o

[Catfish]

I would say we know what happened, with more details than i would want to know [insert vomit icon here].
We know such things are done everywhere, by every nation. But this was so blunt and 'bold' in a negative way that i really wonder what this 'prince' (lmao) thought he was doing.

[Jimbuna]

^ Asserting his power in the kingdom but imo, going about it the wrong way.

[Aktungbby]

Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb-SEEN EVERYWHERE TO PRINCE GOES MAY BE BE FACING A LITTLE DISMEMBERMENT OF HIS OWN AS HE FACES THE MUSIC FOR 'LISTENING TO TO THE MUSIC' WHILE POOR JAMAL K. 'MET HIS WATERLOO'... :yep:MY ADVICE TO THE SAUDI'S: NEXT TIME SEND THE 'A' TEAM; NOT THE 'GANG THAT 'CAN'T SLICE STRAIGHT'... AND IN A CONSULATE THAT AIN'T BUGGED SO THOROUGHLY....:doh:
As the Trump administration wrestles with whether to buy Saudi Arabia’s belated and befuddled explanation for the death of Jamal Khashoggi, a thoughtful Saudi tells me: “Morality aside, the critical question is the sanity of our very own Caligula.”
Comparing Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to the brutal and unbalanced first-century Roman ruler may be harsh, but it’s not entirely inaccurate. Both blazed to power as shining stars of change at a very young age: 25 for Caligula, 30 for Crown Prince Mohammed. Each loved organizing grand entertainment for bored citizens, building extravagant projects and, more to the point, humiliating and silencing associates. Caligula cruelly forced Roman senators to run for their lives before his chariot. The crown prince incarcerated his royal relatives, ministers and prominent businessmen at the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton until they agreed to return some $100 billion of ostensibly ill-gotten gains. Now his regime is offering two of his closest associates to take the blame for Khashoggi’s murder and dismemberment at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

“Remember,” Caligula loved to say, “that I have the right to do anything to anybody,” according to Suetonius, his biographer.
Crown Prince Mohammed has thus far enjoyed the same sweeping power—forcing the visiting Lebanese prime minister to resign on Saudi television, destroying the Gulf Cooperation Council by declaring Qatar an enemy, and now presiding over a system in which, by his own account, Khashoggi’s murder was carried out by his closest associates and numerous royal-court security guards.
If those associates and guards aren’t punished for the roles they allegedly played, Congress—and much of the world—isn’t likely to return to business as usual. And if they are executed, the royal guards of the crown prince may feel exposed and set against each other, which is what led the Praetorian Guards to cooperate with Caligula’s enemies and facilitate his assassination at age 29.
The looming question in U.S.-Saudi relations: Can the crown prince retain unchecked authority in the Kingdom? And if he does, can the U.S.-Saudi relationship—including close cooperation on Gulf security and global oil policy and large infusions of Saudi money into U.S. Treasury bills—remain undamaged? In short, can King Salman retain his son as crown prince and the U.S. as a close ally?
The latest accusation—that the Saudi coverup included sending a Khashoggi double out the back door of the consulate—raises further questions about what the crown prince knew. He told Bloomberg News the day after the disappearance that Khashoggi “got out after a few minutes or one hour.” If his subordinates fed him this cover story, it appears to have taken the prince a long time to get their version of events even though the Saudi team returned to the kingdom within 24 hours.
It is no small irony that a crown prince defined by his determination to control every aspect of the kingdom—a control freak even according to his fans—effectively put control of his own future and the U.S.-Saudi relationship in the hands of two adversaries: Congress and Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Congress, never a friend of Saudi Arabia, can override President Trump to punish the kingdom. Congressional action is that much likelier if the results of Turkey’s investigation are released and prove as lurid as the press leaks of the past two weeks, thereby giving the lie to the Saudi explanation.
An additional threat to the crown prince is the thus-far muted opposition within the Al Saud family, many of whom he has humiliated and shunted aside. Their catalyst for unifying to force the prince from power could come from Turkish revelations that embolden Congress to oppose Mr. Trump’s efforts to continue a strong strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed. Most of the Al Saud family, along with most young Saudis, want access and acceptability in the U.S.




Given that the crown prince has decimated much royal, religious and other opposition over the past two years, his hold on power is seemingly strong. King Salman stood behind his son by putting him in charge of revamping Saudi intelligence in the wake of Khashoggi’s death. Yet it has become possible to imagine that the young prince won’t be the long-term ruler of Saudi Arabia. If not, what happens to his social and economic reform agenda, ranging from liberalization of social life to reducing Saudi dependence on oil exports? The reforms he has tried to institute are necessary, long overdue and largely popular with young Saudis. The tragedy is that he has put the reforms at risk along with his own reputation and rule.
If the crown prince loses power it could be either by the gentle hand of his father or, like Caligula, at the violent hand of cooperation between disgruntled princes and praetorians. “If the king stands by him, I believe there is plotting under way to remove the crown prince violently,” warns Bruce Riedel, a Brookings scholar with 30 years at the Central Intelligence Agency. Even before this, the crown prince’s concern for his security was evidenced by the growing number of nights he spent on his yacht in the Red Sea, seen as safer than princely palaces.
In the first scenario, the king would have plenty of princes to choose from within his immediate family, such as Mohammed’s elder half-brother Prince Sultan, a former U.S. Space Shuttle astronaut and the kingdom’s tourism director, or from the wider Al Saud family, such as Khalid Faisal, 78, a widely respected nephew of the king who serves as governor of Mecca. In this scenario, the reform program wouldn’t be reversed but could slow down to the glacial pace under past Saudi rulers.
In the violent scenario, all bets would be off. An assassination could set off a full-scale power struggle not just among princely branches of the Al Saud family, but including the religious fundamentalists seeking to overturn reforms and restore the restrictive social strictures the crown prince overthrew. What this would mean for U.S.-Saudi relations is anyone’s guess. Surely, however, if Mr. Trump has the ability to influence events, the first scenario is far preferable to the second. I SEE 15 SECURITY PERSONS PUBLICALLY LOSING THEIR HEADS AND THE PRINCE (MBS) REPLACED IF NOT ASSASSINATED ....SHORTLY. OL' KING SALMON https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/B3-CC829_HouseO_P_20181022134053.jpg<SEEN WITH THE YOUNG PRINCE IS IN A TOUGH SPOT, NEEDS TO RECONSIDER HIS CHOICE OF HEIR; AND HE KNOWS IT....:dead::/\\!!

[Bilge_Rat]

well no, MBS may be pushed aside or sidelined, but there will be no assassination or coup. Personally, I think he will just lay low until all this blows over.

The West is not just now waking up to the fact that Saudi Arabia is a murderous regime. Saudi Arabia has been backing thugs, terrorists and killing people right and left for decades as part of their proxy war against Iran.

The way Khashoggi died was horrible, but at the height of the Iraq civil war 10-12 years ago, an average of 20-40 Sunni or Shia men were being killed in the same barbarous ways every night by Saudi or Iranian backed militias. Where was the outrage then?

The West has been turning a blind eye for years while Saudi Arabia does their dirty work in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, etc.

Notice how Israel has been noticeably silent on this whole story, since they are de facto allied with Saudi Arabia against Iran.

Despite what the naive american media may say, the USA and Europe needs Saudi Arabia more than the other way around. China has been trying to break into the lucrative middle east oil market for decades. Do you really think they wont swoop in at the first opportunity if USA/Europe decide to do anything as foolish as "sanctioning" the regime?

[vienna]

Well, reportedly, one of the persons believed to be part of the crew that carried out the murder died, shortly after the crime became public, in an automobile 'accident'; maybe the Prince should consider walking to his future appointments... :hmmm:














<O>

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSpBm89NoCE












<O>

[u crank]

Opinion column by NR's Jonah Goldberg on the dilemma facing Western democracies when dealing with repressive states like Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran. Pretty much a no win situation.

The biggest mistake the Trump administration made in the Jamal Khashoggi case occurred while Khashoggi was still alive: letting Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, think he could get away with something so heinous — and so heinously stupid.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-murder-saudi-arabia-turkey/

One of the more cynical talking points among those calling for new leadership in Saudi Arabia is the idea that reformers in backward authoritarian nations don’t do terrible things.

The shahs were reformers, supporting Western-style modernization and women’s rights. They were also brutal dictators.

And there is a certain level of hypocrisy by some that lacks self awareness.

Some of the most outraged American voices in the Khashoggi affair had no problem working with Iran’s brutal regime. The Obama echo chamber made realist arguments about the nature of reform under the mullahs, but these same people are now morally aghast at our realpolitik with the House of Saud.

[Jimbuna]

US President Donald Trump has said Saudi Arabia's response to the murder of the dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi is "the worst cover-up ever".

Those behind the killing in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul three weeks ago "should be in big trouble", he said.

Shortly afterwards, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the US would "punish those responsible" and had revoked visas of 21 identified suspects.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45960865

This is probably as far as the US will go.

[Bilge_Rat]

everyone else is tiptoing around the issue.

Germany announced it is putting arms exports to the Saudis on hold...but there is a catch, that only applies to future contracts, not the existing $400 million contract:

Riyadh’s explanations so far had not been satisfactory, Altmaier told broadcaster ZDF, adding, “The government is in agreement that we will not approve further arms exports for the moment because we want to know what happened.”

So far this year Berlin had approved weapons exports worth more than 400 million euros ($462 million) to Saudi Arabia, making it the second-biggest recipient of German arms after Algeria.

Asked whether Germany would roll back previously agreed arms deals with Saudi, he said a decision would be made very soon. The EU needed a unified position to avoid some countries filling the gap, he added.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-germany-merkel/merkel-no-german-arms-exports-to-saudi-until-killing-cleared-up-idUSKCN1MW2LT

[em2nought]

The Saudis need to hire Hillary as a consultant if they want to do a better job next time they have somebody erased. :03: She's the expert in this field. :03:

[Dowly]

Found the conspiracy theorist!

[Mr Quatro]

Found the conspiracy theorist!

Dowly's new title should be, "Catcher of the Wise" :yep:

[Aktungbby]

IF TRUMP TWEETED ''WORST COVER UP'', THIS IS THE WORST PHOTO OP OF KASHOGGI'S ELDEST SON BEING FORCED TO SHAKE HANDS WITH HIS FATHER'S MURDERER(S) IE: THE KING AND THE PRINCE.... https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5bcf3e433c0000a2020e1d4e.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_nou pscale(BE GOOD OR WE'LL DO U 2??!!:O: ) https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5bcf3a0d2200000c03dd9ee0.jpeg?cache=g8exmbhpx2&ops=scalefit_720_noupscaleKASHOGGI JR. DOES NOT LOOK HAPPY.....:doh: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/saudi-king-and-crown-prince-meet-with-family-of-jamal-khashoggi_us_5bcf37f8e4b0d38b587c8e54 (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/saudi-king-and-crown-prince-meet-with-family-of-jamal-khashoggi_us_5bcf37f8e4b0d38b587c8e54)

[Jimbuna]

Journalist Jamal Khashoggi's murder was "premeditated", Saudi Arabia's public prosecutor been quoted as saying by Saudi state media.
Saudi Arabia's latest announcement follows US media reports that CIA director Gina Haspel has heard audio recordings believed to capture the journalist's murder.
Lurid details from the recordings have been steadily leaked to the Turkish media - screams, torture, dismemberment of the body: proof, Ankara says, of the meticulously planned operation.

That has now been corroborated by the Saudi prosecutor, who says he believes - based on evidence provided by Turkey - that the murder was premeditated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45979507

Piece by piece the evidence is now coming out.

[Catfish]

^ i tried not to use words like those in your last sentence ;)

[Jimbuna]

^ One piece at a time then :03:

[Aktungbby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45979507

Piece by piece the evidence is now coming out. JEEZE! AND HERE I'VE TRIED TO AVOID STATING THAT POOR JAMAL IS 'A MAN OF MANY PARTS':shucks:....AND MY MODERATOR BEATS ME TO IT! :O:THE TURKS BIT BY BIT RELEASE OF INFORMATION HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS ''TURNING ON THE 'DRIP DRIP'' IE: EVERY TIME THE SAUDIS DENY....ANOTHER PIECE OF CONTRDICTORY INFO APPEARS TO CATCH THEM IN THE OFFICIAL LIE; A VERY WEARING AND SUCCESSFUL TACTIC. I note that the guard in my post #62 is taking no chance with Mr Kashoggi Jr-note hand on gun...but perhaps only I would notice these ...details:o http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/aktungbby/3me%20at%20work_zpsmlotsqyp.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

I note that the guard in my post #62 is taking no chance with Mr Kashoggi Jr-note hand on gun...but perhaps only I would notice these ...details:o http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/aktungbby/3me%20at%20work_zpsmlotsqyp.jpg


That's a good picture :yep:

You better be careful Aktungbby ... your now on their list to be next :o

https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.Ci84OyMlkkdf2Jhfonm65gHaFj&w=258&h=185&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.5625&pid=1.7

[Aktungbby]

That's a good picture :yep:

You better be careful Aktungbby ... your now on their list to be next :o

https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.Ci84OyMlkkdf2Jhfonm65gHaFj&w=258&h=185&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.5625&pid=1.7 REST ASSURED; I WOULD LOWER THEIR 'PROPHET MARGIN'; INSHALLAH BBY! :ping: :ping: :ping:
BUT NOT TO WORRY; THE COMPANY I REPRESENT SIX DAYS AND NIGHTS A WEEK- MY FOUTH CONTRACT IN 15 YEARS- IS OWNED BY AN EGYPTIAN IMMIGRANT AND A LOT OF THE 200+ GUYS I GUARD ARE MOSLEM ESCAPEES FROM THIRD-WORLD EVERYWHERE ELSE....:k_confused:

[Jimbuna]

It would appear the travel ban has been lifted.

The eldest son of the murdered Saudi journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, has arrived in the US from Saudi Arabia along with his family.

Salah Khashoggi had previously been barred from leaving Saudi Arabia because of his father's criticism of the country's leadership.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45988533

[Catfish]

It would appear the travel ban has been lifted. [...]


If he has inherited any brain from his father he will stay in the US, and never visit a Saudi embassy.

[Jimbuna]

If he has inherited any brain from his father he will stay in the US, and never visit a Saudi embassy.

Too bleedin true!!

[Aktungbby]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1037378/Khashoggi-murder-news-saudi-arabia-chemical-weapons-use (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1037378/Khashoggi-murder-news-saudi-arabia-chemical-weapons-use) MURDERED journalist Jamal Khashoggi was about to disclose details of Saudi Arabia’s use of chemical weapons in Yemen, sources close to him said last night. The revelations come as separate intelligence sources disclosed that Britain had first been made aware of a plot a full three weeks before he walked into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.
Intercepts by GCHQ of internal communications by the kingdom’s General Intelligence Directorate revealed orders by a “member of the royal circle” to abduct the troublesome journalist and take him back to Saudi Arabia.
The orders, intelligence sources say, did not emanate directly from de facto ruler Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, and it is not known if he was aware of them.
Though they commanded that Khashoggi should be abducted and taken back to Riyadh, they “left the door open” for other actions should the journalist prove to be troublesome, sources said.

[Rockstar]

Im not sure if J.K.'s death had anything to do with threatening to announce the Saudis use of phosphorus in Yemen. I think J.K.'s ties with Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood put his life in jeopardy. Now it's been said Khashoggi and the Muslim Brotherhood are all about freedom and democracy but on the assumption that everyone who votes, votes for the Muslim Brotherhood and political Islam. I think the Brotherhoods increasing desire for greater influence in Saudi politics has recently been seen as a direct threat to the Saudi Monarchy. Killing J.K. sent a message and silenced any immediate ideas of them gaining power and influence in the Kingdom. Then again maybe not.

[Catfish]

^ Maybe, or not.

I take it killing Mohammad Bin Salman will also send a message. Maybe with a bit of torturing beforehand, like dismembering alive?

You know what the Shariah dictates, an eye for an eye.

[Aktungbby]

^ Maybe, or not.

I take it killing Mohammad Bin Salman will also send a message. Maybe with a bit of torturing beforehand, like dismembering alive?

You know what the Shariah dictates, an eye for an eye. THE ONLY WAY OUT FOR THE TWO-FACED PRINCE IS TO SHIP THE 15 AGENTS BACK TO TURKEY FOR ADJUDICATION...OTHERWISE HIS PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY IS....CAMEL DUNG https://www.businessinsider.com/erdogan-wants-khashoggi-saudi-killers-tried-in-turkey-2018-10 (https://www.businessinsider.com/erdogan-wants-khashoggi-saudi-killers-tried-in-turkey-2018-10) HEY PRESIDENT ERDOGAN READS MY POSTS!:yeah: I WONDER IF HE THINKS I'M ''TALKIN' TURKEY':doh::
:rock::()1:https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/talk+turkey (https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/talk+turkey)
Turkey's president suggested Tuesday that he might formally ask for the extradition of the 18 men Saudi Arabia is holding responsible for the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi....In his Tuesday speech, Erdogan added that he would use Shariah, international law, and Saudi law, as well as the help of the Saudi king, to get to the bottom of Khashoggi's death. NATURALLY ONE WONDERS IF HIS GOVERNMENT WILL BE KINDER TO TURKISH JOURNALISTS NOW THAT HIS DICTATORSHIP HAS STOOD FORTH SO PROMINANANTLY FOR JAMAL K. IT DOESN'T DO TO APPEAR TWO-FACED ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE; THAT WOULD BE HYPOCRASY...:shucks: IE: NOT 'TALKIN TURKEY':O:

[Rockstar]

^ Maybe, or not.

I take it killing Mohammad Bin Salman will also send a message. Maybe with a bit of torturing beforehand, like dismembering alive?

You know what the Shariah dictates, an eye for an eye.

First and foremost you would need to prove Bin Salman had anything to do with it. Good luck with that.

I think if anything it will be between Erdogan and Salman behind closed doors. I suspect we'll soon see another photo-op of Salman shaking hands. But this time it will be with Erdogan

[Jimbuna]

I'd still like to know where the body/parts are :hmmm:

[Catfish]

First and foremost you would need to prove Bin Salman had anything to do with it. Good luck with that. [...]

I did not mean to wait for an official confession.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/05/cia-long-history-kill-leaders-around-the-world-north-korea
Maybe another nation.. just saying.

[Rockstar]

Kill Salman who takes his place? The muslim brotherhood, an army of religious zealots?

[Catfish]

Another 'prince'? There are 15,000 running around in S.A.


edit: Or install Nigel Farage as the new leader. Serves them right :D

[Rockstar]

Its a monarchy, kings and queens regardless of the country over which they reign have dealt with challenges to their authority much the same way for thousands of years.

[Jimbuna]

Jamal Khashoggi's fiancee on his murder - BBC News

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y9M7oSSFW4

[Jimbuna]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has for the first time accused the Saudi government directly of murdering journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

"We know that the order to kill Khashoggi came from the highest levels of the Saudi government," he wrote in an article in the Washington Post.

But stressing Turkey's "friendly" ties with Saudi Arabia, he added that he did not believe King Salman was involved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-46077894

[Aktungbby]

I'd still like to know where the body/parts are :hmmm: ...HE ASKED ACIDLY!:O:
THE LATEST: https://nypost.com/2018/11/06/saudis-allegedly-tampered-with-security-cameras-after-khashoggi-killing/ (https://nypost.com/2018/11/06/saudis-allegedly-tampered-with-security-cameras-after-khashoggi-killing/)
Staff at the Saudi consulate in Turkey where journalist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered last month (https://nypost.com/2018/10/11/audio-recording-reportedly-proves-khashoggi-was-killed-in-consulate-turkey-says/) tried to dismantle the building’s security cameras to cover up evidence of the crime, a report said Tuesday.
The Saudi officials tried to rip out a camera inside the Istanbul consulate on Oct. 2, the day Khashoggi disappeared, and days later tampered with cameras at a police security booth in the building, Al-Jazeera reported (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/11/saudis-tampered-cctv-cameras-khashoggi-murder-report-181106081248140.html), citing Turkish media.
A member of the consulate staff accessed the video system in the police post Oct. 6 and entered a digital code that did not dismantle cameras but prevented access to any videos that could have shown the writer entering the building, the report said.
But Al-Jazeera reported that Turkish police had already retrieved a copy of the video before the staff member tried to lock the system IMHO: THE SAUDI PROTESTATIONS OF "FULL CO-OPERATION" WITH THE TURKISH AUTHORITIES ARE HIGHLY SUSPECT. THERE SHOULD BE 18 VERY PUBLIC SHARIAH BEHEADINGS FOR MURDER AND THE KING (SALMAN ) NEEDS TO PICK A NEW PRINCE AS HEIR....FROM WHICH HE HAS AN ENDLESS SUPPLY:doh:; AS PRINCE MBS 'S POLITICAL WORLD-STAGE CREDIBILITY IS SHOT-TO-RIBBONS.

[Jimbuna]

Fears a SECOND journalist brutally killed after Khashoggi torture.

Turki Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Jasser is believed to have been murdered in a Saudi jail last week, after being forcibly detained in March for his supposed connection to a Twitter count outlining numerous abuses committed by the Saudi royal family.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1042461/Jamal-Khashoggi-Saudi-Arabia-murder-second-journalist-killed-tortured-Al-Jasser

[Catfish]

Saudi motto is "come in peace and leave in pieces" :nope:

[Jimbuna]

^ :)

[Aktungbby]

Saudi motto is "come in peace and leave in pieces" :nope: APPARENTLY IT'S ''WORSHIP THE PRINCE...NO MATTER WHAT! https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/opinion/saudi-arabia-mbs-grandmosque-mecca-politics.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/opinion/saudi-arabia-mbs-grandmosque-mecca-politics.html)
In the aftermath of the Jamal Khashoggi murder, the kingdom has exploited the podium of the Grand Mosque in Mecca by using its imams to praise, sanctify and defend the rulers and their actions. the aftermath of the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, as the world’s accusatory gaze was transfixed on Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi monarchy has again used the Grand Mosque to defend and deify the crown prince in a manner that makes its legitimacy and control of Mecca and Medina morally troubling like never before. Imam Sudais prayed for God to protect Prince Mohammed against the international conspiracies being woven against him by the enemies of Islam, the malingerers and hypocrites, and concluded that it was the solemn duty of all Muslims to support and obey the king and the faithful crown prince, the protectors and guardians of the holy sites and Islam. The sermons in Mecca and Medina are read from a script, which is approved beforehand by Saudi security forces. Top Saudi intelligence officials close to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman asked a small group of businessmen last year about using private companies to assassinate Iranian enemies of the kingdom, according to three people familiar with the discussions.:oops: MAYHAP A 'SMOKING PISTOL'??: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/middleeast/saudi-iran-assassinations-mohammed-bin-salman.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/middleeast/saudi-iran-assassinations-mohammed-bin-salman.html) IMHO: THE SAUDI APPLE IS ROTTEN AND A WORM IS ABOUT TO TURN. I'M STILL AWAITING THE PUBLIC BEHEADING OF THE EIGHTEEN WHO TRAVELLED TO THE CONSULATE IN TURKEY...THEY WILL AT LEAST CONVENIENTLY SILENCE THEIR CONNECTION TO THE WAYWARD PRINCE....:arrgh!: :doh:

[Aktungbby]

MAYHAP A 'SMOKING PISTOL' INDEED:O: Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/19/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-dead-saudi-arabia.html?module=inline) last month, a member of the kill team instructed a superior over the phone to “tell your boss,” believed to be Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia, that the operatives had carried out their mission, according to three people familiar with a recording of Mr. Khashoggi’s killing collected by Turkish intelligence.While the prince was not mentioned by name, American intelligence officials believe “your boss” was a reference to Prince Mohammed. Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb, one of 15 Saudis dispatched to Istanbul to confront Mr. Khashoggi at the Saudi Consulate there, made the phone call and spoke in Arabic, the people said....“A phone call like that is about as close to a smoking gun as you are going to get,” said Bruce O. Riedel, a former C.I.A. officer now at the Brookings Institution. “It is pretty incriminating evidence.” THANKYOU MR MOUTREB; CASE CLOSED:doh: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-killing-saudi-arabia.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-killing-saudi-arabia.html)

[vienna]

Looks like Trump isn't beneath shedding blood to keep on the Saudi's good side over the Khashoggi murder:


To ease Turkish pressure on Saudis over killing, White House weighs expelling Erdogan foe --



https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/white-house-weighs-booting-erdogan-foe-u-s-appease-turkey-n933996


Trump administration's reported effort to 'barter' a US resident to convince Turkey to ramp down Khashoggi probe stuns foreign-policy veterans --


https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fethullah-gulen-turkey-khashoggi-experts-stunned-2018-11


Extraditing Erdogan's enemy to Turkey is a 100% death sentence for the guy and is something that, until this administration, was anathema to American values and morals. To barter a human life for political gain is beneath contempt, regardless of how one may feel about the person being bartered. I guess Saudi oil and Trump investments are more important than US moral standing and basic ethics...
















<O>

[Rockstar]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. :yeah:

[Catfish]

Trump made a mistake.

[Jimbuna]

Extraditing Erdogan's enemy to Turkey is a 100% death sentence for the guy and is something that, until this administration, was anathema to American values and morals. To barter a human life for political gain is beneath contempt, regardless of how one may feel about the person being bartered. I guess Saudi oil and Trump investments are more important than US moral standing and basic ethics...
















<O>

100% agreed....who in the future will trust America again especially whilst Trump is in office? :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

IF true and that's a big if. Even with the sources of information above being in question we still read. Oh the outrage! How could anyone trust the U.S. ever again. Woes me, terrible so terrible. Its a death sentence! Such a mistake Trump blah blah blah. The horror the horror.

Just an FYI gents, what I know IS true is the EU has already set the example for the rest of the world and actually followed through and deported members of the Gulen movement back to Turkey.

https://hizmetnews.com/19126/bulgarians-outraged-deportation-gulen-supporter-turkey/

Where was the outrage then? Is it because the EU did it and that makes it somehow better or different? Wonder what the favors you gained from Erdogan were? Think Abdullah Buyuk is still alive?

Let me hear the outrage! :woot:

[Catfish]

^ Yes, Bulgaria is in the EU, while human rights continue to 'suffer' badly.

"Hristo Hristev, a professor of EU law at Sofia University “Saint Kliment Ohridski” told BIRN on Monday that Bulgaria could face a trial before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg as well as an infringement procedure in front of the European Commission for breaching various principles of the European Convention of Human Rights."

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/strasbourg-court-questions-bulgaria-on-the-extradition-of-gulen-supporter-04-24-2018
So there is outrage. But the mills turn slowly, too slowly, yes.

And the bulgarian reason for the extradition: “We must not allow the migrant wave to flood Bulgaria,” he said in an interview with NOVA,[...]
Sounds familiar, eh?
Adding that “...it is of great significance for Bulgaria to maintain good relations with Turkey.”

[Rockstar]

So are telling me human rights are still suffering badly in the E.U. and no outrage? How's that trial going? Anyone going to jail? What are you doing to bring these people to justice?

Here we have an actual real life case of a country in the free world sending a Gulen member back against his will to appease Erdogan and all we get are lame excuses how the mill turns slow. Great example guys!

“We must not allow the migrant wave to flood Bulgaria,” he said in an interview with NOVA, adding that “it is of great significance for Bulgaria to maintain good relations with Turkey.” Sounds familiar, eh? Well, no, it doesn't sound familiar. Having worked in immigration enforcement for years I dont recall the U.S. ever sending someone to his death at the behest of another country's leader to stop others from coming to the United States. Though as the article suggests the Europe Union has.

[Catfish]

This is why the EU as an international organisation needs more power to hinder and prevent nationalist local incest chieftains to violate international law. Welcome to the club.

[Rockstar]

This is why the EU as an international organisation needs more power to hinder and prevent nationalist local incest chieftains to violate international law. Welcome to the club.




Hmmm what I find astonishing is that after 70 plus years things really haven't changed over there have they? I'd of thought you would do this BEFORE you allow someone to join your precious Union. But no thanks doesn't sound like a club I want to join.

[Catfish]

oh i did not mean that club oops

Seriously, it was not a good idea to let certain nations join the EU. Bulgaria. Romania. Fortunately not Turkey.
You know basically all states that vow and promise to fulfill the requirements to become a member, and then just do not do it.

A second thought surely was that when they join, democratic thoughts, free speech, values and a general increase of information and education would diffuse or "trickle" into those countries.. but you know how those "trickle down" effects work in the end :03:

[vienna]

Basically, the US has had a long held standard of behavior when it comes to human rights and, basically, it boils down to : If you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. A little thing called national honor and image...


Of course, maybe all that has has changed now that we have that paragon of virtue, integrity, ethics, and honesty now in the Oval Office...












<O>




..

[u crank]

Of course, maybe all that has has changed now that we have that paragon of virtue, integrity, ethics, and honesty now in the Oval Office...

Oh please. You must be joking. Are you suggesting that all previous administrations were a "paragon of virtue, integrity, ethics, and honesty". I sure hope not.

[Catfish]

You have to admit that general handling and conduct has reached an all-time low. Though i am not informed about Genghis Khan's speeches.

[u crank]

You have to admit that general handling and conduct has reached an all-time low. Though i am not informed about Genghis Khan's speeches.

I am not defending the present administration. But I wouldn't dream of defending the previous one. I'd have to consult a lawyer first.

:D

[Mr Quatro]

Basically, the US has had a long held standard of behavior when it comes to human rights and, basically, it boils down to : If you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. A little thing called national honor and image...
<O>


Isn't Chicago part of the human rights problem?

http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2018/07/chicagos-safest-and-most-dangerous-neighborhoods-2018-murders/

Chicago's Safest And Most Dangerous Neighborhoods 2018

For the 12 months ending in June 2018 595 people were killed, compared to 784 last year's 2017 at this time.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jamal-khashoggi-killing-cia-concludes-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-ordered-khashoggis-assassination-2018-11-17/

CIA concludes Saudi crown prince ordered Jamal Khashoggi’s assassination

The CIA has intelligence that substantiates an assessment that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, according to a U.S. official familiar with the intelligence.


The CIA's assessment regarding the death of Khashoggi, who wrote for The Washington Post, was first reported by news outlets Friday, including The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and The Associated Press. According to sources cited in the publications, the CIA's assessment appeared to be largely based on the control held by bin Salman. In other words, the murder could not have been carried out without the knowledge of bin Salman, often referred to by his initials, MBS.

MBS has denied any involvement in Khashoggi's killing.

[Catfish]

I am not defending the present administration. But I wouldn't dream of defending the previous one. I'd have to consult a lawyer first. :D

:rotfl2: :haha:

[Catfish]

CIA concludes Saudi crown prince ordered Jamal Khashoggi’s assassination

Must be fake news :03:

"President Trump has resisted blaming MBS for Khashoggi's death. He has cited the importance of the Saudis in countering the influence of Iran in the region, as well as future military sales by U.S. defense contractors.
On Saturday, President Trump called Saudi Arabia a "spectacular ally", citing the kingdom's contribution to American jobs and the economy."

Oil.

Anyone remembers Kashoggi's son had to shake hands with Bin Salman for "condolences"? I can't eat enough how much all this makes me throw up.

[vienna]

Oh please. You must be joking. Are you suggesting that all previous administrations were a "paragon of virtue, integrity, ethics, and honesty". I sure hope not.

The past is the past as far as previous administrations go and we are now left with the present, which is under our watch. Just like in almost all comparative matters of performance, its "what are you doing now" and the guy in the Big Chair ain't no shining paragon. Pointing back at previous administrations to defend the failings of the current disaster of governance does little more than amplify how very deficient in any leadership qualities Trump and his minions are. Trump campaigned on MAGA, but all he's really done is make the US a diminished power and an international joke punchline. So, stop pointing backwards, start dealing with the now, and, if you got to point, point at how the current mess can be remedied...

Perhaps when President Pence takes office soon; after all, it seems Pence's current Chief Of Staff is being considered as a replacement fo Kelly as Trump's CoS; how convenient it will be for Pence when he has to take over after President Chump flames out...


You have to admit that general handling and conduct has reached an all-time low. Though i am not informed about Genghis Khan's speeches.

Neither am I, but I'd be willing to bet his would be a hell of a lot more cogent and better than than aimless ramblings of Trump...

...or is Trump-Speak the 'new Mongolian'?... :D









<O>

[u crank]

Pointing back at previous administrations to defend the failings of the current disaster of governance does little more than amplify how very deficient in any leadership qualities Trump and his minions are.

I'm not defending the present or any of the past administrations. I'm just telling it like it is. It's your point. You defend it.

So, stop pointing backwards, start dealing with the now, and, if you got to point, point at how the current mess can be remedied...

Same way as the last one. An election.

Perhaps when President Pence takes office soon

Dream on if you wish.

[Rockstar]

Must be fake news :03:

"President Trump has resisted blaming MBS for Khashoggi's death. He has cited the importance of the Saudis in countering the influence of Iran in the region, as well as future military sales by U.S. defense contractors.
On Saturday, President Trump called Saudi Arabia a "spectacular ally", citing the kingdom's contribution to American jobs and the economy."

Oil.

Anyone remembers Kashoggi's son had to shake hands with Bin Salman for "condolences"? I can't eat enough how much all this makes me throw up.


Khashoggi was very close and had many friends in high places in the U.S. Government including the CIA. He was a good source of information with a tremendous amount of connections throughout the middle east. His murder ticked off a lot of those friends especially those in the CIA.

Now I dont consider Saudi an ally, but we (not just Trump) have much of the same concerns in that region as the Saudis do. And regardless of the political rhetoric and fan boy finger pointing you might hear in the news. I think we will maintain a relationship with them not because we like them but out of necessity.

[Mr Quatro]

I think we will maintain a relationship with them not because we like them but out of necessity.

This is as true as it gets :up:

[vienna]

I'm not defending the present or any of the past administrations. I'm just telling it like it is. It's your point. You defend it.


Yes, and I told it like it is as well, wit the emphasis on is, not was. Simply trying to dodge a matter by always bringing up Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, etc., or past occurrences not really affecting the current situation, points out there is no real defense for the appallingly inept and shoddy excuse for governance the US is currently suffering from...

If you rcounter to my point is to weakly beat dead horses, then you should do as you say; "It's your point. You defend it"...


As far as 'President Pence' is concerned, I have been merely pointing out how passing strange it is how Pence has been placed more in the front on matters he previously had no comment, how he has assumed some of the public responsibilities from Trump, and how he has even appeared to veer away from Trump on some issues; putting Pence's CoS as Trump's CoS, in place of Kelly, seems a rather 'natural' way of easing what may be an approaching change of command; Pence could hit the ground running without the need to make staff decisions regarding his possible Presidency; overall, the actions surrounding Pence, of late, have seemed a bit too neat and convenient...

Of, course, if you are really concerned about Pence, you could probably stop him cold by putting an unmarried woman in the Oval Office; he appears to be scared to death of them... :haha:












<O>

[u crank]

Yes, and I told it like it is as well, wit the emphasis on is, not was.

So we agree.:D

My emphasis, though not intended, is to simply point out that nothing has changed from administration to administration. Nothing.

..there is no real defense for the appallingly inept and shoddy excuse for governance the US is currently suffering from...

That's an opinion you are entitled to. Not everyone shares that opinion. Some people are quite happy. Nice to live in a pluralistic society eh.

As far as 'President Pence' is concerned,..

Gotta admit it rolls right off the tongue. But unless Trump resigns à la Nixon or for some other reason (boredom) Pence remains the #2 guy. Oh yea he may be impeached but found guilty by the Senate...no. Well highly unlikely unless of course he does stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoots someone. Of course there will have to be 'credible' witnesses.:yep:

Of, course, if you are really concerned about Pence, you could probably stop him cold by putting an unmarried woman in the Oval Office; he appears to be scared to death of them... :haha:

If only Bubba would have had that problem.:O:

[vienna]

Trump, right now, is royally screwed, and by his own hand: with the obstruction of justice counts he will very, very likely face, his questionable business dealings, his continued efforts at subornation and witness tampering, with all of his 'trusted' advisers and pals flipping on him and his brood, he's in deep legal doo-doo. Add to this how the GOP Far Right is gonna hold him responsible for the loss of the House (and a spectacular loss at that: the greatest loss since Gerald Ford lost the House after the Watergate Scandal/Nixon's Resignation) and that Trump's "agenda" is going to be stymied in Congress as never before, and, oh yes, all those nice little House investigations into Trump's finances and connections, I'd bet, if push came to shove and the GOP could see another Nixonesque debacle on the horizon in 2020, they'd be more than willing to shove Trump and cut their losses. And the really sweet thing about all this is the "very, stable genius" will have brought all this down on himself. I predicted before that, faced with a loss of his 'empire', Trump will pull Nixon and cut a deal to save his ass by resigning...












<O>

[u crank]

^^^

Well you could be right. Or you could be wrong.

Like I said... some people are happy.:D

https://i.imgur.com/O0JAJbt.jpg

[Skybird]

Funny. Because of the murdering of Kashoggi, Germany now has stopped all arms deliveries to Saudi Arabia, including deals already running or decided for.


The war in Jemen and the massive collateral damage done there by a not overly concerned Saudi military did not acchieve that.

[Rockstar]

Hmmm,

Turkey probably threatened to send more immigrants or organize pro-Erdogan Muslim brotherhood political marches throughout Germany. ;) In a planned effort to get Germany to stop arms sales and reduce Saudi effectiveness in Yemen. Allowing Iran and Turkey to more easily encircle Saudi Arabia with shiite backed governments.

The U.S. on the other hand continues to sell arms to Saudi Kingdom. Though I dont think because we like them but because as I stated earlier we have common concerns about Turkey and Iran.

[vienna]

^^^

Well you could be right. Or you could be wrong.

Like I said... some people are happy.:D

https://i.imgur.com/O0JAJbt.jpg (http://https://i.imgur.com/O0JAJbt.jpg)




Wow, what a 'major' accomplishment: Until Kavanaugh, Clarence Thomas received the lowest total confirmation vote in the Senate; Thomas got 52 votes, and Kavanugh got 50. Third lowest? Gorsuch with 54 total votes...


In contrast, Ginsburg got 96 votes out of 99 cast...














<O>

[u crank]

Wow, what a 'major' accomplishment: Until Kavanaugh, Clarence Thomas received the lowest total confirmation vote in the Senate; Thomas got 52 votes, and Kavanugh got 50. Third lowest? Gorsuch with 54 total votes...


In contrast, Ginsburg got 96 votes out of 99 cast...

Hmm I don't think you understand how that process works. Getting confirmed is all that matters. That's the whole idea. It would not matter who Trump named from that list provided by The Federalist Society. Everyone knew what was going to happen. Some of them even announced it before hand. The result would have been the same. What's changed?

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's take on it.

“The way it was, was right,” she said. “The way it is, is wrong."

“The atmosphere in '93 was truly bipartisan," she said. "The vote on my confirmation was 96 to 3 even though I had spent about 10 years of my life litigating cases under the auspices of the [American Civil Liberties Union] ACLU and I was on the ACLU board, and one of their general counsels.”

Ginsburg said the White House at the time was nervous about her affiliation with the civil rights group, but she said she didn’t get a single question from a senator about it.

https://thehill.com/regulation/406503-ginsburg-blasts-supreme-court-confirmation-process-as-highly-partisan-show

She noted that both Justice Stephen Breyer and Scalia were also confirmed by wide margins in the Senate — Breyer by a vote of 87-9, and Scalia by a vote of 98-0.

“Every Democrat and every Republican voted for him,” she said of Scalia.

“But that’s the way it should be. It’s better than what it’s become, which is a highly partisan show.”

The clown show put on by those Democratic Senators sets a new low in behavior. As the President, Trump had the right to nominate a conservative originalist. Just like he promised. Like I said...some people are happy.

And as his predecessor famously said, "elections have consequences" and "I won."

[vienna]

Hmm I don't think you understand how that process works. Getting confirmed is all that matters. That's the whole idea. It would not matter who Trump named from that list provided by The Federalist Society. Everyone knew what was going to happen. Some of them even announced it before hand. The result would have been the same. What's changed?

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's take on it.



https://thehill.com/regulation/406503-ginsburg-blasts-supreme-court-confirmation-process-as-highly-partisan-show



The clown show put on by those Democratic Senators sets a new low in behavior. As the President, Trump had the right to nominate a conservative originalist. Just like he promised. Like I said...some people are happy.

And as his predecessor famously said, "elections have consequences" and "I won."


Still, the paucity of a real mandate in the Senate for Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Thomas, etc. in comparison to the very wide, bipartisan endorsements of Ginsburg, Scalia, etc. is a fair bellweather of how, seemingly, the GOP has gone from quality nominees like Scalia to the barely acceptable, in the Senate, except along partisan lines, of Kavanaugh nad Gorsuch; the GOP now has the distinction of have the three lowest confirmation vote tallies for sitting justices...

As far as winning is concerned, well, Trump did win in the Electoral College, but he and his administration still suffers from the fact that 53.9% of the voters chose not to vote for him and the poll numbers have shown his support has slipped further; it is extremely hard to formulate an agenda (let's face it: it is extremely hard for Trump to formulate anything) and have it succeed when you don't have majority support, which Trump still doesn't have and even less after the 2018 Mid-Terms: the losses in the House, the very showing in the Senate, and the general repudiation of Trumpism at the local and state level do not inspire confidence nor does it make for effective governance...

The whole concept of 'I/We won' kind of reminds me of a story I heard when I spent a summer in Central America: there was a woman who was considered by all to be spiteful and wretched and much reviled. She was inordinately sting-willed, in a bad way, strong in the self-belief only sge was right, and given to petulance. She went shopping one day and finished the day with both hands filled with shopping bags, which she firmly gripped by the handles. She decided to take a city bus; the buses were ramshackle vehicles which, because of the heat, had no glazed windows and, because of the custom, no doors, just the door openings. The buses were, on the best of days, dangerously overcrowded, with passengers packed into the buses, some even hanging on to the outside window frames. Well, the woman was determined to get on the bus and plowed in, bullying and forcing her way on and into the interior. Having scored her 'victory', she looked down and found her shopping bags had torn off the handles and all she had, as the bus pulled away, were just those handles. Not willing to admit her actions had had very much less than desirable results, she firmly declared, "I win. I got on the bus!"...

Yes, sometimes you score a 'victory', but all it accomplishes is the loss of what you had a firm hold on; the GOP and Trump are dangerously close to being left with just the handles...

Sometimes the quality of the 'win' is more important than the win itself...











<O>

[u crank]

Still, the paucity of a real mandate in the Senate for Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Thomas, etc. in comparison to the very wide, bipartisan endorsements of Ginsburg, Scalia, etc. is a fair bellweather of how, seemingly, the GOP has gone from quality nominees like Scalia to the barely acceptable, in the Senate, except along partisan lines, of Kavanaugh nad Gorsuch; the GOP now has the distinction of have the three lowest confirmation vote tallies for sitting justices...

Like I said. No conservative judge picked by Trump or anyone else would be acceptable. Not a chance.

So let's ask the question. What do you have against those Justices? I know what the Democrat Senators had against them. It's not that they aren't qualified. They are all highly qualified. Certainly as qualified as any of the current Justices. No it's all about their conservative and originalist view of the law and the constitution. Is that your objection?

..it is extremely hard to formulate an agenda and have it succeed when you don't have majority support, which Trump still doesn't have and even less after the 2018 Mid-Terms:


Is this not exactly what happened to Obama in 2010 only he suffered a far worse defeat at the hand of the electorate? Never the less he remained in office for six more years. So hang on to your hat. It should be noted that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 85 years old and Stephen Breyer is 80. Donnie might get another kick at the can yet.

Sometimes the quality of the 'win' is more important than the win itself...

That all depends on your perspective. To some people two conservative Supreme Court Justices is a very high quality win.

[Mr Quatro]

Y'all are off subject go back to post 116 and start all over again :yep:

[Rockstar]

Shiite, Sunni wars. Salafism vs Wahabbism, Saudi Arabia, Erdogan Caliphate, Iranian influence and proxy wars, Syria, Muslim Brotherhood, Yemen, tribes competing for regional power.


Amazingly some make it all about Trump as if he just established the boundaries we call the Middle East.

[August]

Shiite, Sunni wars. Salafism vs Wahabbism, Saudi Arabia, Erdogan Caliphate, Iranian influence and proxy wars, Syria, Muslim Brotherhood, Yemen, tribes competing for regional power.


"We didn't start the fire, it was always burn..." erm sorry I just channeled a little Billy Joel for a second there! :)

[Catfish]

[...] So let's ask the question. What do you have against those Justices? I know what the Democrat Senators had against them. It's not that they aren't qualified. They are all highly qualified. Certainly as qualified as any of the current Justices. No it's all about their conservative and originalist view of the law and the constitution. Is that your objection? [...]

The poor misunderstood right minority. With 'qualified', you mean exactly what? You know it is indeed and directly the right wing views and prejudices, their plans to change society and their coming to biased judgments, like, as you might remember, Mr Bannon from Breitbart, that are imho wrong and dangerous.

You let nuclear plants be controlled by private companies owning said plants, and not by independent commissions? What could probably go wrong lmao. The 'president' coming from the right-wing rich establishment cuts taxes for his good old boys. Tax reduction, yeah, while 20 percent of said reduction address 1 percent of the population.

If the chief judge of a country is right wing and anti-abortion, a climate change denier, his actions and judgments will reflect that. Like Trump's EPA decisions to shut down the national parks, destroy them to make more money. You put a fox in charge of a henhouse.

A democrat-leaning man or judge is indeed more neutral and reasonable than a right-wing one, and usually has a more modern educated mindset. And this is the point.

You cannot expect reason from a Bin Salman, an Erdoghan, a Xi Jinping or any other egomanic right-wing potentate. You cannot expect sanity from an insane.

[u crank]

The poor misunderstood right minority. With 'qualified', you mean exactly what?

What don't you understand about qualified. They went to law school. Yale, Columbia, Harvard. They became lawyers. They clerked for lower court judges and then for Supreme court justices. You know just like all the other Supreme court Justices. They were not washing dishes before their appointments. Do some research.

A democrat-leaning man or judge is indeed more neutral and reasonable than a right-wing one, and usually has a more modern educated mindset. And this is the point.

The very idea that someone who has conservative view points is unqualified for any office shows the authoritarian bent of the left. The constant crowing about having the moral high ground is laughable and hypocritical. Your attempt to demonize people for their political beliefs is the most constant failure of both the left and the right. Proper political discussion isn't accomplished by saying 'Mr Bannon from Breitbart'.

Nothing makes a democratic society work like the diversity of ideas and view points. What the left wants is a uniformly ridged political and social thought pattern.Their obsession with political correctness, identity politics and equality of outcome are far more troubling to me than having a conservative Judge on the Supreme court. The current war against free speech at liberal universities threatens to bleed out into the world at large along with all the disturbing and violent tendencies that go with it. When these indoctrinated 'democrat-leaning' people control all aspects of political and bureaucratic life I guess you will be happy.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

[Catfish]

What don't you understand about qualified. They went to law school. Yale, Columbia, Harvard. They became lawyers. [...]

You can become a lawyer as a stalinist or a Nazi, no problem. 'Technical or juristical knowledge' alone tells nothing about your state of mind. It is also about social skills and empathy, and common sense.

[...] The very idea that someone who has conservative view points is unqualified for any office shows the authoritarian bent of the left. And the very idea that someone who has liberal or progressive view points is unqualified for any office shows the authoritarian bent of the right.

When i once said that someone should think twice before making a right-winger a moderator in a certain forum, i was not thinking of his technical abilities, or that he was dumb (he was definitely not). It was just that there was a certain tendency to ban people who did not fit in his right-wing world view, which imho made him unsuited for the job. Bias. No, not here in this forum. And yes, i think right-wingers are more authoritarian.

And I do not demonize them, i think Trump is doing a pretty good job in making himself unbearable without needing help by me, or anyone. And yes i indeed think there are people better suited and with a better moral base (your term, not mine) than Trump.

Proper political discussion isn't accomplished by saying 'Mr Bannon from Breitbart'.So then you think what Trump does, or Bannon did, or a lot of Trump's minions do or say, or what was purported about Hillary Clinton, or this idiotic boasting about Winning and being The Greatest and a Stable Genius in those tweets is "political discussion"?
This is exactly bedeveling the enemy, propaganda at a very low level. And now the far right gets butthurt because people being insulted unexpectedly strike back?

You want to discuss Bannon's or Trump's moral background?

[u crank]

You can become a lawyer as a stalinist or a Nazi, no problem. 'Technical or juristical knowledge' alone tells nothing about your state of mind. It is also about social skills and empathy, and common sense.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying here in a round about way is that only people who agree with your political philosophy have social skills, empathy and common sense. Those who don't are Stalinists or Nazis? If you are not saying that what are you saying?

The two gentlemen we are talking about(I think), Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh have long careers in the American justice system. Yes their decisions are based on a conservative interpretation the United States Constitution. Ruth Bader Ginsberg's interpretations are based on a progressive/liberal view point. Again it's that authoritarian/moral high ground that comes out which decides that one is good and the other is not. What do you base that on?

So then you think what Trump does, or Bannon did, or a lot of Trump's minions do or say, or what was purported about Hillary Clinton, or this idiotic boasting about Winning and being The Greatest and a Stable Genius in those tweets is "political discussion"?

No I don't. I prefer a rational discussion. I don't have to defend Trump, Bannon or anyone else. Why do you think I do? And who are you defending?

You want to discuss Bannon's or Trump's moral background?

Not really. Nor do I want to discuss Bill or Hillary Clinton's either. Or anyone of a ever growing list of corrupt politicians on either side of the political divide. It depresses me.

And yes, i think right-wingers are more authoritarian.

If you think that then I don't think you have been paying attention.

[Catfish]

Yes, i indeed think that a neutral, libertarian(?) or at least slightly "left" leaning person is indeed better suited to be a "statesman". As long as we seem to need the latter.

Stone, W. F., & Smith, L. D. (1993). Authoritarianism: Left and right. In W. F. Stone, G. Lederer, & R. Christie (Eds.). Strengths and weaknesses: The authoritarian personality today. New York: Springer-Verlag

also here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

The phrase "right-wing" in right-wing authoritarianism does not necessarily refer to someone's politics, but to psychological preferences and personality.

"There have been a number of other attempts to identify "left-wing authoritarians" in the United States and Canada.
These would be people who submit to leftist authorities, are highly conventional to liberal viewpoints and are aggressive to people who oppose left-wing ideology. These attempts have failed because measures of authoritarianism always correlate at least slightly with the right.

However, left-wing authoritarians were found in Eastern Europe.
There are certainly extremists across the political spectrum, but most psychologists now believe that authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon."

Which correlates with my personal experience. But it is only an opinion, and your mileage may vary.

[Rockstar]

Ummm, I think you just validated several points u-crank made.


From the links you provided. :hmmm:


Concerning the book "Strengths and weaknesses: The authoritarian personality today". Bob Altemeyer has been a source of encouragement and a ready adviser on any question we have asked. Also, concerning Bob Altemeyer's work. "Theoretical problems involved the psychoanalytic interpretation of personality, and methodological problems focused on the inadequacies of the F-Scale. Another criticism is that the theory of the Berkeley group insinuates that authoritarianism exists only on the right of the political spectrum".


So far zero book sales through Amazon.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/Stuart_Smalley.jpg
I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!

[vienna]

So far zero book sales through Amazon.




Odd, but when I checked on Amazon (I was curious to see a book with zero sales, I mean not even self or relatives?), there were 26 reviews, which indicate some sales, and, going by the usual way sales and reviews work, there are probably not a few who bought the book or audio CD who didn't bother to write a review. Wherever you got your "no sales" info was, most likely, fake news...








<O>

[Catfish]

Certain books are not mainly sold via Amazon, not even today ;)
Rockstar, thanks for that picture of you :D

What about the original theme of this thread. "Great allies", Realpolitik.

[Rockstar]

Odd, but when I checked on Amazon (I was curious to see a book with zero sales, I mean not even self or relatives?), there were 26 reviews, which indicate some sales, and, going by the usual way sales and reviews work, there are probably not a few who bought the book or audio CD who didn't bother to write a review. Wherever you got your "no sales" info was, most likely, fake news...








<O>




I was commenting on Strength and Weakness: The Authoritarian Personality Today https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Weakness-Authoritarian-Personality-Today/dp/1461391822/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1542829531


And just so you know there buck 'o' I get my news from very reliable sources. :O:


https://lenpenzo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/fake-news.png

[vienna]

Well, as long as you use the same reliable sources as Trump...

Excuse me, now; I've got to buy some cereal and I need to find my voter ID so I can go to the store...







<O>

[Rockstar]

These days anyone can get a voter registration card. I hear in California you're automatically enrolled when you turn 18 :D


I had to show my U.S. Passport to the DMV before they would issue a drivers license.

[vienna]

These days anyone can get a voter registration card. I hear in California you're automatically enrolled when you turn 18 :D


I had to show my U.S. Passport to the DMV before they would issue a drivers license.

It is true here in CA there is automatic enrollment, but there is a vast difference between being registered to vote and actually voting; in 2016, the last year for which statewide voter participation stats are available, the voter turnout was only 56% of the total registered. Some people try to confuse/conflate the idea of registration with actual participation in order to make a situation seem far worse than it actually is; here in LA County, a local TV 'hard hitting investigative reporter' ran a segment about how over 540 name of dead voter were still on the rolls; however, there were only 17 votes cast under those names and it was not said if those votes were actually counted, just that votes in those many had been cast. So, those 17 votes represent only 0.031% of the dead voters on the rolls, and, there being over 5,000,000 registered voters in LA County, those 17 represent only 0.0000034% of the total registered voters. Let's face it: those 17 votes, if they weren't caught by the verification process, would have about as much affect on the vote tallies as adding a grain of sand to a beach. Trump started all this hoo-haw about voter fraud, neither he nor his minions have been ever able to come forward with a single, solid instance of wide voter fraud and, when you look at the actual stats regarding the true extent of alleged fraud, the results are there is no evidence of election-affecting fraud...

As far as the automatic registration goes, the program here in CA is part of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993, a Federal Law:


About The National Voter Registration Act --

https://www.justice.gov/crt/about-national-voter-registration-act


CA's system is provided through the Department Of Motor Vehicles (DMW):

California Motor Voter --

https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/california-motor-voter/



Since 1993, the National Voter Registration Act, often known as the Motor Voter law, has helped millions of people register to vote or update their voter information during a driver license or ID card transaction at the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV).

The California Motor Voter program applies to Californians who are 18 or older and meet the following criteria:


A United States citizen and a resident of California.
Not currently in state or federal prison or on parole for the conviction of a felony
Not currently found mentally incompetent to vote by a court.

Voter pre-registration is available for Californians who are 16 or 17 years old. They will automatically be registered to vote when they turn 18. Before visiting a DMV field office, we recommend making an appointment. You can also use DMV online services to renew your driver license or ID card or change your address.

If you indicate that you are eligible to vote, once you complete your DMV transaction online, by mail, or in person, your voter information is transmitted securely and electronically to the California Secretary of State. Once your eligibility to vote is determined, you will be registered to vote.

Individuals with AB 60 driver's licenses are not eligible to participate in the California Motor Voter program and are not eligible to vote.


So, in spite of your allusion to a 'global' automatic registration at age 18, it only applies a person applies for a Driver's License; no DL application, no automatic registration. Everybody else, 18 or over have to register, if they wish, the old fashioned way and fill out the form in their county. Note, also, the National Voter Registration Act is nationwide, has been in effect abut 25 years, and I would suspect there are similar programs in the other states, so basically noting new and nothing sinister...


Your state must make it pretty easy if all you needed was a passport to Id yourself for a license; here in CA, this is what you need to get apply for a license (from the CA DMV website):



Provide proof of your Social Security number*, such as your:

Social Security card.
Military ID card.

Provide proof of your full and true name. The CA DMV provides a list of documents, including documents that show:

Marriage or verification of domestic partnership formation.
Dissolution of marriage or domestic partnership.
Name change. (Must include original and new names.)

Provide 1 document (original or certified) that proves your birth date and legal presence from the state's list of documents, which includes:

U.S. birth certificate.
U.S. passport.

Present 1 document proving your California residency from the DMV's list of approved documentation, which includes:

Mortgage bill.
Utility bills.
Rental or lease agreement signed by your landlord.

Have your thumbprint taken.

Have your photo taken.



...and, under the new Federal Real ID Act of 2005, the CA DMV will require a certified copy of a birth certificate, something you have to get from whoever holds the records of your birth...


That's the problem with the country nowadays: lenient states that allow people to get thing like licenses with just a passport... :D











<O>

[Buddahaid]

Just went through that to get my real ID driver's license so I could use it to fly domestically and in the process you are also required to re-register to vote.

Of course all the illegal aliens just picked them up out of a candy jar so they could vote the democratic ticket....

[Rockstar]

I didn't have a clue where my birth certificate was so I used my Passport. It had been expired maybe a year. Idiots at the MVA in Maryland said they couldn't use it as proof of citizenship because it was expired. So I had to renew it before they would issue a drivers license.

I work immigration for years, never in my life have I heard anyone before tell me an expired U.S. passport could not be used to validate citizenship. But it is the Maryland Eastern Shore and they aren't the brightest bulbs in the lamp store.


Land of the free :roll:

[Buddahaid]

I have a notarized birth certificate that I had to get years ago to get my passport which is currently expired. Otherwise I would have had to jump through the hoops in a different county all over again.

[Mr Quatro]

Smoking gun (pun) :o

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudi-prince-constant-touch-khashoggi-hit-squad-boss-185155362.html

Saudi prince was in constant touch with Khashoggi hit-squad boss: report

Washington (AFP) - In the hours leading up to journalist Jamal Khashoggi's brutal killing, Saudi Arabia's crown prince sent at least 11 messages to his closest advisor who was charged with overseeing the murder, the Wall Street Journal said Saturday quoting a CIA assessment.

[Catfish]

^ it will not change the stance of the US, or Trump. I can understand why but it's really hard to take.
If he's clever maybe Trump can use the public opinion towards MBS as a leverage to achieve (read: enforce) an advantage in negotiations?

Maybe, to make an example, there'll be a sniper at the G20.. or a bit later in S.A. One can hope.

[Rockstar]

What really bothers me the most about the articles I've been reading is how the CIA is making these claims. IMO they are attempting to subvert our elected officials and dictate foreign policy to their liking.

If I'm not mistaken the CIA is supposed to report their findings to the officials elected by the people and they make the decisions.

[Jimbuna]

What really bothers me the most about the articles I've been reading is how the CIA is making these claims. IMO they are attempting to subvert our elected officials and dictate foreign policy to their liking.

If I'm not mistaken the CIA is supposed to report their findings to the officials elected by the people and they make the decisions.

There could well be something in what you say :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

I SEE 15 SECURITY PERSONS PUBLICALLY LOSING THEIR HEADS AND THE PRINCE (MBS) REPLACED IF NOT ASSASSINATED ....SHORTLY. OL' KING SALMON IS IN A TOUGH SPOT, NEEDS TO RECONSIDER HIS CHOICE OF HEIR; AND HE KNOWS IT....:dead::/\\!!
I 'M STILL WAITING FOR 14 EXECUTIONS (ONE OF THE 15 DIED IN A CAR ACCIDENT?) AND THE REMOVAL OF THE PRINCE SO THAT AT LEAST THEIR OWN LAW WILL APPEAR TO BE UPHELD... THE SAUDI PROSECUTOR IS SEEKING THE DEATH PENALTY AGAINST ONLY FIVE OF THEM....

[Catfish]

[...] how the CIA is making these claims. IMO they are attempting to subvert our elected officials and dictate foreign policy to their liking.
If I'm not mistaken the CIA is supposed to report their findings to the officials elected by the people and they make the decisions.

A CIA conspiracy! Against Trump !!
Good for them :O:

On the other hand it could be an intended media echo to give Trump more leverage in the G20 against Mohammad Bin Salman, and future deals.

[Dowly]

After CIA briefing, Republicans say 'no question' Saudi crown prince ordered Khashoggi murder (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-director-briefs-small-group-senators-saudi-crown/story?id=59598135)


Following a briefing by CIA director Gina Haspel Tuesday on the murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, leading Republican senators told reporters that there was "zero question" that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the brutal murder.

Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Sen. Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican, said "I have zero question in my mind that the Crown Prince MBS ordered the killing, monitored the killing, knew exactly what was happening. Planned it in advance. If he was in front of a jury he would be convicted in 30 minutes. Guilty," Corker said.

Corker called the Trump administration's claim that there is no direct evidence of the crown prince's involvement "unacceptable."

[Catfish]

Was or is there any doubt that Bin Salman is directly responsible for the torture, and killing?
It is one thing to make "Realpolitik" like Trump, but publicly saying that MBS is innocent is a bit rich.

"If your actions do not resemble your principles, it is time to rethink them."

[Jimbuna]

Matters seem to have quietened down :hmmm:

[August]

Matters seem to have quietened down :hmmm:


Of course. The good Senators were asked what they should do about the situation! As we all know it's a lot easier just to criticize the actions of someone else than to actually come up with a better plan.

[Jimbuna]

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced five people to death and jailed three others over the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi last year.

Khashoggi, a prominent critic of the Saudi government, was killed inside the kingdom's consulate in the Turkish city of Istanbul by a team of Saudi agents.

The Saudi authorities said it was the result of a "rogue operation" and put 11 unnamed individuals on trial.

A UN expert said the trial represented "the antithesis of justice".

"Bottom line: the hit-men are guilty, sentenced to death. The masterminds not only walk free. They have barely been touched by the investigation and the trial," Special Rapporteur Agnes Callamard wrote on Twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50890633

No doubt the Saudis will view this as the end of the matter but I doubt that view will be shared by many other countries.

[Skybird]

Pawn sacrifice.

[Aktungbby]

I can't believe Saud al-Quatanni gets to walk! And the Saudis really need to move from their obviously thoroughly bugged consulate; the tape recordings were an infallable 'drip-drip' Turkish source of irrefutable incriminating evidence of premeditated(not 'spontaneous' as claimed) 1st degree murder!

[Jimbuna]

I can't believe Saud al-Quatanni gets to walk!

Too far high up in the food chain.

[Jimbuna]

Pawn sacrifice.

You could say that yes :yep:

[Catfish]

Those who are being executed are those who might know anything about Bin Salman's order to kill Kashoggi. The others probably do not know enough, or are regarded as loyal and patriotic enough to Saudi Arabia.
Time to get away from oil.

[August]

Time to get away from oil.


That might be good advice for those countries that don't have their own reserves but I seriously doubt they could ever afford it.

[Catfish]

^ We are working on it :)
I do not think the earth's crude resources will be depleted in the next 20 years, though i really think oil is too valuable to just burn it, when you think of plastics and medicine.

Back to Kashoggi and his murderer Mohammed Bin Salman, it seems that any country is somehow allowed to kill unwanted persons in other countries anytime, even in so called peaceful times, without being held accountable for it.

[Aktungbby]

it seems that any country is somehow allowed to kill unwanted persons in other countries anytime, even in so called peaceful times, without being held accountable for it. NOW YER 'TALKIN' TURKEY':O:

I tried to be sarcastic.. sorry :03:
SARCASTIC PUNNING 101! WITH SARCASM: "THERE IS NO TRY''https://emojis.slackmojis.com/emojis/images/1450319458/137/yoda.png?1450319458...ONLY DO-DO:O: of course, the irony is: the five condemned flunkies of the prince are each about to become 'a man of many parts'...just like their victim!:hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

I can't believe Saud al-Quatanni gets to walk! And the Saudis really need to move from their obviously thoroughly bugged consulate; the tape recordings were an infallable 'drip-drip' Turkish source of irrefutable incriminating evidence of premeditated(not 'spontaneous' as claimed) 1st degree murder!...in addition to which: it's tough to claim spontaneous spur-of the-moment homicide when a surgeon with a bone-saw is present for the homicidal caper... and overheard on tape discussing the dissection of the corpus dilicti:oops::doh: Constant turban wearing impairs thinking imho!:arrgh!:

[Catfish]

[...] Constant turban wearing impairs thinking imho!:arrgh!:
My belief since a long time, adding to the heat in that zone that does not let you think 'cool' and forward-looking :03:
Though Mr murderer Mohammed Bin Salman probaby enjoys some airconditioning in his 'office', which makes his deed even more cold-blooded.

‘Credible evidence’ Saudi crown prince liable for Khashoggi killing – UN report (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/19/jamal-khashoggi-killing-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-evidence-un-report)

aww
Kashoggi's death 'haunts' Mr Salman
we are all so sorry
NOT.

[Catfish]

Jamal Khashoggi: Turkey charges 20 Saudis over journalist's murder

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52034510

If you watch the video in which Salman is asked whether he ordered to kill Kashoggi.. his body language, eyes etc. reveal it all. Swine.

[Jimbuna]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[Catfish]

"Saudi Arabia sentences eight people to prison in Khashoggi murder case."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi/saudi-arabia-sentences-eight-people-to-prison-in-khashoggi-murder-case-idUSKBN25Y1FI

Heaven forbid that puppet master bin Salman will ever be accused before court, let alone convicted.

[Skybird]

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/entsetzen_ts/26157334/2-format1007.jpgDer Tagesspiegel

[Aktungbby]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-murder-sentence.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-murder-sentence.html) If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. Prince Mohammed has said that he played no role in the killing but that he bore some responsibility for it because it happened on his watch. "Quack Quack":haha:

[Jimbuna]

Yet,if they were caught stealing they risked having their hands cut off....early release in a few years me thinks :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

SWEET JESUS! (with apologies to mohammed:shucks:) What do they amputate when caught fornicating in non-koranic fashion!??:O:

[vienna]

Ask a Saudi guy with a high squeaky voice...




<O>

[Aktungbby]

^...that suddenly joined...the Vienna Boy's Choir!:O:

[vienna]

No choir, and, sir, I have a deep basso profundo voice... a very deep basso profundo voice...




<O>

[Aktungbby]

In today's WSJ: Kashoggi's son has 'forgiven' his father's killers. Under Saudi law, the five death penalties are/can be reduced to imprisonment. Praise be unto allah... the mirthiful! :roll::nope::rotfl2:and can someone check bin Salman's $hekel account? I '$pect the Kashoggi family coffers are full....:hmmm: but hey, I'm just a $keptical worst-case-scenario kinda guy...,

[Catfish]

"A declassified version of a U.S. intelligence report expected to be released on Thursday finds that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman approved the 2018 killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, four U.S. officials familiar with the matter said.

The officials said the report, for which the CIA was the main contributor, assessed that the crown prince approved and likely ordered the murder of Khashoggi, whose Washington Post column had criticized the crown prince’s policies"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-biden/u-s-report-on-khashoggi-death-expected-to-single-out-saudi-crown-prince-sources-idUSKBN2AO2HL

[Jimbuna]

Can't say I'm surprised. I suspected as much from the beginning. What does surprise me is the number of countries (UK included) who queue up to sell them military weapons.

[Bilge_Rat]

This is not news, everyone knows the Crown Prince is behind it, but it does not matter since he is still and will be for a long time the de facto and eventually legal ruler of Saudi Arabia. Releasing the report will only antagonize the U.S.-Saudi Arabia relationship, which is why the Trump admin did not release it.

If the US decides it no longer wants Saudi Arabia as an ally, you can be sure China will be in there quickly. They have wanted to get access and garanteed supply of Saudi Oil to their economy for a very long time.

You really have to wonder why the Biden admin moved to release the report, there is no upside to it, only downsides. It looks like a politically naïve move.

But then, the Biden admin has made a lot of rookie mistakes, like rushing back into the Paris Climate Accord, instead of taking the opportunity to try to negotiate a better deal or trying to rush back into the Iran nuclear deal. Notice how Iran is acting like they have the upper hand in the negociations.

The only smart move they have done so far is continue the sanctions to kill the Nord Steam 2 project.

[Rockstar]

Yemen is a side show, a pawn in an effort to restore Crown Prince Mohammed bin Nayef as successor to King Salman. Nayef has much closer ties to the U.S. than the younger MBS. Once Nayef 's position is secured I'd wager it will be back to business as usual. :yep:



At the start of the millennium, Nayef had become Saudi Arabia’s go-to counterterrorism expert. Trained by the FBI and Scotland Yard, he began his career at the interior ministry, where he was head of intelligence and eventually interior minister, a post that had him working closely with the CIA. He developed ties with David Petraeus, the former CIA director under Obama, and has a network of contacts at the US Department of State.
Well-liked by the Americans, Nayef was one of just a few Saudi princes who mastered the issues he was tasked with handling. In 2010, he alerted the CIA to a cargo plane bomb plot involving two aircraft bound for the United States.


Jon Finer, who served as chief of staff for former secretary of state John Kerry, was impressed by Nayef’s ability to regularly provide critical intelligence on jihadist activities. A Riyadh-based US Department of State employee once said of MBN’s team: “They saved my butt more than once.”

[Skybird]

Its illogical to raise these issues if one has no intention to draw consequences anyway. One only illustrates one's own hypocrisy by doing so.

[Catfish]

Maybe "illogical" though i do not think so. If any potentate does such a thing it should be at least made public, and publicly codemned, if only as a shot across the bow. Right action, if a bit late.
There is no need for conciliation, nor whitewashing.
If you can criticise the US for what they did in Nicaragua or whatever, why t.h. not an arabian potentate.

[Skybird]

If you expose somebody as a murderous pig and barbar, you raise questions about yourself why you still shake his hand, pay him money and make busienss with him. Thats what i call the hypocrisy in it. The self-contradiction.



Logical would be that if you want to continue being tied to this somebody, you stay silent about his bad sides and do not help to uncover them.


Anyone here expecting the US soon to break ties with SA and stopping to sell them weapons?

[Catfish]

^ of course no one will stop selling weapons :03:, but if you can inject a bit of pressure in the negotiations you are maybe in a better position to put through some additional interests, may it be price, strategy or politics. And while it does not make anyone more trustworthy, it is a sign to S.A. that the US will still maintain ties and share intelligence.

If you just hush it up, your standing will not be better than if you did what you did now, in the eyes of the world. And it gives a broad hint that such action as done by Mohammed Bin Salman does not get unnoticed, even between allies. Yes, no one should have diplomatic ties with such regimes let alone sell them weapons, but .. China, Russia .. and it is better to keep up speaking with another. Better than what was done in the last years.
https://de.rt.com/nordamerika/106594-trump-froh-daruber-saudi-arabiens/
Yes, RT, i know ..

[Bilge_Rat]

I see Merkel never condemned the Crown Prince and Germany is still selling arms to Saudi Arabia.

Is this a case of do as I say, not as I do...:03:

[Rockstar]

I was just about mention how the Europeans just now got around to calling for a ban on their own arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Better late than never I guess. :roll:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/eu-parliament-calls-for-ban-on-arms-sale-to-saudi-uae/2142020




"The Eurofighter from Airbus is used to bomb hospitals in Yemen," said German Green MEP Hannah Neuman.
"The French mirage bombers are used by the United Arab Emirates to do exactly the same," she added.


https://euobserver.com/foreign/150908

[Rockstar]

Then there's Germany who while crying a river over others sales to Saudi Arabia sneak in a billion dollar arms sale. Then goes back to crying about others lack of concern for Yemen. :haha:


Since early 2019 (https://www.dw.com/en/germany-exports-weapons-to-saudi-led-alliance-in-2019/a-49224987), German arms manufacturers exported over €1 billion ($1.1 billion) worth of weapons to Egypt, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and other countries fighting Houthi rebels in Yemen as part of the Saudi-led alliance.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-sells-arms-to-members-of-saudi-led-yemen-coalition/a-53000044

[Skybird]

Yep.


Or China. Pro forma complaints - but not too hurting, precious Chinese sentiments else may get upset - about human rights violations and such, but handing over German key technology and knowhow for short earned money incomes. Fiat currency that will not be worth much anymore in the forseeable future - and key tech competencesomncpoetences hande dovert to the Chienser. The US does it, too. Everybody seems to do it.

Its a stupid world. And we will reap what he have sown. Rightfully.

If we would at least insist on getting paid in solid gold. But not even that. Just bytes and paper tokens. Hopeless.

[Skybird]

Or germany and Turkey. Germany dleivers plkent yof stuff to them, cpoupled with an erected pointing finger of "boobooboobooboo - don'T you do any bad thing with that in Kurdistan!".



Illogical. And so self-embarassing. Hypocrisy.

[Skybird]

^ of course no one will stop selling weapons :03:, but if you can inject a bit of pressure in the negotiations you are maybe in a better position to put through some additional interests, may it be price, strategy or politics. And while it does not make anyone more trustworthy, it is a sign to S.A. that the US will still maintain ties and share intelligence.

If you just hush it up, your standing will not be better than if you did what you did now, in the eyes of the world. And it gives a broad hint that such action as done by Mohammed Bin Salman does not get unnoticed, even between allies. Yes, no one should have diplomatic ties with such regimes let alone sell them weapons, but .. China, Russia .. and it is better to keep up speaking with another. Better than what was done in the last years.
https://de.rt.com/nordamerika/106594-trump-froh-daruber-saudi-arabiens/
Yes, RT, i know ..


In other words: hypocrisy. Price, strategy and politics, you said, might be what you influence this way. Reduce it to price. Not China's and not Saudi Arabia's and not Russia's and not Turkey's strategy and politics have been changed one bit by these things. To claim that is a German text book example of opportunistic self-deception.



Which is okay, since it all is about money anyway. Hypocrisy. Or should I say: selling of indulgences. So take the money and turn your back on things.

[Rockstar]

I dont know if this has hit the airwaves yet. Here's the UNCLAS DNI assessment of the Saudi who done it mystery. Unfortunately there's not much too it.

https://cryptome.org/2021/02/Assessment-Saudi-Gov-Role-in-JK-Death-20210226.pdf

[Catfish]

re Skybird:
Oh, Russia has good contacts to Saudi Arabia. You are right, all german self deception and that, but currenty only the party "Die Linken" have it in their program to cut weapon deals with S.A.. So you want to vote for them?

At least we do not exactly boast with having good ties to S.A. .. on he other hand who can withstand those beautiful smiles ..

https://i.imgur.com/HfJSydpl.jpg

[Skybird]

re Skybird:
Oh, Russia has good contacts to Saudi Arabia. You are right, all german self deception and that, but currenty only the party "Die Linken" have it in their program to cut weapon deals with S.A.. So you want to vote for them?

You think a football team scoring a goal has won the tournament just of that - when the other team has scored 15 goals?