Diesel Submarines: The Game Changer the U.S. Navy Needs

[Onkel Neal]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/diesel-submarines-game-changer-us-navy-needs-31827

Among the more-than-ample reasons for acquiring a flotilla of diesel-electric submarines for the U.S. Navy: SSKs could help deter war by demonstrating American resiliency should war come in the Western Pacific. Deterrence comes from capability and visible resolve to use it. And from staying power. Foes blanch at starting a fight if they fear they can do little to blunt an antagonist’s warmaking capability. In short, resilient contestants deter. And should war come anyway, an artfully employed diesel contingent could help the United States and its allies—principally Japan—prevail in that war.

An allied sub squadron wouldn’t need SSNs with breakneck speed and unlimited underwater endurance to defend a static island perimeter. SSNs excel at open-ocean combat, but they represent excess capacity and expense—and thus waste—for sentry duty. A U.S.-Japanese squadron would need subs to man the barricade in concert with surface craft, missile-armed troops on the islands, aircraft roving overhead, and well-placed minefields. Picket subs thus need to hover silently and stealthily along the island chain, awaiting their chance to strike.

Diesels can do that. The alliance needs enough sentries to keep up a constant rotation, assuring enough subs are always on guard, along with a reserve to shore up the line when vessels are lost in action. A U.S.-Japanese sub fleet would boast enough hulls to keep up a rotation along the Ryukyus. The JMSDF gets by with nineteen boats after a modest buildup, but the leadership wants more. Add a dozen or so American boats to the combined order of battle, and you’d have an undersea fleet able to hold the line with enough units to spare for offensive missions such as raiding shipping within the Yellow or East China Sea or the Sea of Okhotsk.




https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/styles/desktop__1486_x_614/public/main_images/JS_Seiry%C5%AB%28SS-509%29_right_front_view_at_U.S._Fleet_Activities_Y okosuka_April_30%2C_2018_02.jpg?itok=7XlavmR6

[ET2SN]

SSNs with breakneck speed and unlimited underwater endurance


Trust me, the Navy and the Pentagon like this part. :yep:

I was one of the last guys to serve on both types, we ain't going back. :up:

[Cybermat47]

In 2000, one of our Collins-class diesel-electric boats managed to “sink” two USN nuclear boats and get in range of a Nimitz. The diesel-electrics still have their place in a modern navy.

If America goes back to making diesel-electrics, they need to name the first one Tang :D

[Mike Abberton]

The chances of the US Navy purchasing a weapon platform that they can't staff,
would need to develop an entirely new logistics train for, can only realistically base at foreign nation's ports to be useful, and only buy from a foreign nation for the 10-20 years it would take to get US production of a replacement on line, seems extremely unlikely to me.

Mike

[ET2SN]

The chances of the US Navy purchasing a weapon platform that they can't staff,
would need to develop an entirely new logistics train for, can only realistically base at foreign nation's ports to be useful, and only buy from a foreign nation for the 10-20 years it would take to get US production of a replacement on line, seems extremely unlikely to me.

Mike

Ding!
You win the cookie. :yeah:

[Penner10000]

What kind of Submarine is on the picture?

[U56]

My guess is Japanese Navy Soryu's.

[ikalugin]

US has allies to take up the SSK missions.

[Christopher Snow]

Well, maybe it's easier for me to spot because I happen to have a big monitor and I'm close to it, but that sub is flying two Japanese flags. So take your best guess?:salute:

[sonicninja]

The Royal Navy went down this route with The Upholder/Victoria-class submarines in the 1990's, also known as the Type 2400 (due to their displacement of 2,400 tonnes), they were diesel-electric fleet submarines.

The Royal Navy was going to follow the Oberons with nuclear-powered boats but there was still a role for diesel powered boats, as demonstrated by activities during the Falklands War, and they could be built faster than nuclear submarines.

The first of the class (Upholder) was ordered in November 1983 and completed in 1990, and there followed three more boats (Unseen, Ursula and Unicorn) ordered in 1986 and completed in 1991-1993. The Royal Navy had planned to order 12 of the class, but this was trimmed first to 10 and then to nine before being curtailed at four as part of the "peace dividend" at the end of the Cold War in the early 1990s.
In 1998, Canada accepted the four Upholders as replacements for their old Oberons; initially with one to operate in the Pacific fleet and three in the Atlantic, but later two boats were assigned to the Pacific.

Source of info:- Seaforces.org

I personally never served on Diesels I was an SSN rating but the guys I knew that had served on DB's said they were great boats.

[Bleiente]

What kind of Submarine is on the picture?
My guess is Japanese Navy Soryu's.
That is correct. :up:

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/sssoryuclasssubmarin/


:salute:

[Mr Quatro]

US has allies to take up the SSK missions.

If we build diesel submarines for Taiwan the chinese would get all out of shape. If we build submarines for Australia or Canada would be okay, but the years and money spent wouldn't make sense.

Mise well give them a couple of LA class refurbished boats and train their sailors.

India is the country I'm worried about ... they've now gone nuclear too, right?

Drones are the next defensive weapon ... especially buoy type of drones that can intercept pre-programed sounds.

[ikalugin]

Nuclear as in they produce nuclear submarines or as in they have nuclear weapons?

[U56]

[QUOTE=ikalugin;2570089]Nuclear as in they produce nuclear submarines or as in they have nuclear weapons?[/QUOTE

Both. India and Pakistan currently face off over Kashmir with a bunch of tactical nukes. India has leased nuclear submarines from Russia, and I think now has completed a domestic build one as well.

[Mr Quatro]

Nuclear as in they produce nuclear submarines or as in they have nuclear weapons?

Nuclear submarines :yep: ... they don't build them do they?

They probably get them from russia ... all I know is what the front page of subsim says.

[ikalugin]

They built a pair of light SSBNs with Russian assistance.
http://www.hisutton.com/Vanquisher%20of%20Enemies%20-%20INS%20Arihant.html
Which is essentially a stretched kilo with inserted missile and nuclear power plant compartments.

[Bleiente]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ztcv-PJb7c


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine


:arrgh!:

[nikimcbee]

Wut? No love for the USS Blueback? They could modernize that? City of Portland hates it (cuz it's a WAR ship and precious, progressive Portland hates war)

[nikimcbee]

If we build diesel submarines for Taiwan the chinese would get all out of shape. If we build submarines for Australia or Canada would be okay, but the years and money spent wouldn't make sense.

Mise well give them a couple of LA class refurbished boats and train their sailors.

India is the country I'm worried about ... they've now gone nuclear too, right?

Drones are the next defensive weapon ... especially buoy type of drones that can intercept pre-programed sounds.


Yeah, I thought the sea drones were all the rage now? The way the Navy is going, they would be tough to build, with all of the new requirements. Needs to be solar powered, transgender compliant, ADA compliant, All of the gauges will need to be in English, Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian. Replace torp tubes with safe space and tide pod dispenser. What happens if there's no wifi signal, how will google maps work?

[ET2SN]

Wut? No love for the USS Blueback? They could modernize that? City of Portland hates it (cuz it's a WAR ship and precious, progressive Portland hates war)

When we decommed her sister, it felt like the Navy and DOD were going to send us all thank you notes for putting her out of her (thier?) misery. :03:

Make no mistake, the Barbel class (and the Darter) were old by 1989. Aside from some upgrades to sonar and fire control, the class hadn't been touched since they converted from bow planes to fairwaters in (I think?) 1965.

Adding new gizmos to a nuke is fairly easy. They produce and generate more than enough power. On a diesel boat, something's gotta give which usually means getting used to cold water and living with a flashlight tied to your hand.

There's also that matter of "they ain't nukes..". My new crew members (well, most of them) seemed to like the idea that I could also wear DBF dolphins but it was a bit of a shock when I checked on board the Bremerton and my new COB hands me a full ship's qual card. :timeout:

Normally, re-quals (going from one class to another) were more of an admin/CYA thing where you sit down with your duty chief on a duty day. For me, it was expected that I wouldn't mind being a non-qual again.
:k_confused:

Lucky for me, a lot of the chiefs in the goat locker were on my side. :D

[nikimcbee]

When we decommed her sister, it felt like the Navy and DOD were going to send us all thank you notes for putting her out of her (thier?) misery. :03:

Make no mistake, the Barbel class (and the Darter) were old by 1989. Aside from some upgrades to sonar and fire control, the class hadn't been touched since they converted from bow planes to fairwaters in (I think?) 1965.

Adding new gizmos to a nuke is fairly easy. They produce and generate more than enough power. On a diesel boat, something's gotta give which usually means getting used to cold water and living with a flashlight tied to your hand.

There's also that matter of "they ain't nukes..". My new crew members (well, most of them) seemed to like the idea that I could also wear DBF dolphins but it was a bit of a shock when I checked on board the Bremerton and my new COB hands me a full ship's qual card. :timeout:

Normally, re-quals (going from one class to another) were more of an admin/CYA thing where you sit down with your duty chief on a duty day. For me, it was expected that I wouldn't mind being a non-qual again.
:k_confused:

Lucky for me, a lot of the chiefs in the goat locker were on my side. :D
The thing that surprised me the most was how advanced the Blueback is/was and how clunky the Foxtrot was, which was newer. The Blueback was build ~1959ish and the B-39 was built in the early 70s. The Foxtrot looked like a copy of a German WW2 sub.


A diesel just doen't fit into our global strategy. They seem too limited to me.:hmmm:

[ET2SN]

The US diesel boats were past their "use by" dates when they were scrapped or retired. :doh:

Bonefish had a catastrophic fire in port due to rusted out cableways and corroded wires. We had hydraulics so worn out that you could throw a cat through the accumulators (which was how we wound up on CNN) :doh: and I know Darter leaked everything including freon into her bilges.
The problem wasn't replacing old parts, there were no parts. The people who made those parts had all retired ten years earlier. :doh:

Blueback was going to be sold to (I think?) Venezuela until a mixed crew took her out for a test drive. To keep it short, our Navy was not impressed and cancelled the sale before she became a tragic news story. :03:

Its the same as going to an aircraft museum and seeing the B-58 Hustler or the F-105 Thunderchief. People will wonder why the Air Force doesn't fly them any more and why they can't be just "fixed up". They belong to another era.

So, why not build new diesel boats? The Navy does't need them. The US Navy keeps the bad guys on their side of the ocean by engaging with them "over there". So, coastal defense? Of what? :O:

[Bleiente]

"So let's open a new conversation within the naval community. And let's not accept "because... Rickover!!!" or kindred excuses for staying with current methods and hardware. If not diesel submarines, why not?"

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/us-submarines-run-silent-run-deepon-diesel-engines-11306


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVvb_2X0N4


Supplement to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ztcv-PJb7c

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

:arrgh!:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KenWOkS9qLs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

:salute:

[Bleiente]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eup468vL3ws

[Bleiente]

The German genes of HDW/TKMS are already outwardly concise to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyWB9xTTRWk
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/04/south-korean-submarines-3000-ton-kss.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TCDBx9JKcY

[Bleiente]

https://i.postimg.cc/BZdVPyhy/germansub.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/germany-could-arm-europe-some-truly-super-submarines-24056

:salute:

[Mr Quatro]

https://i.postimg.cc/BZdVPyhy/germansub.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/germany-could-arm-europe-some-truly-super-submarines-24056

:salute:

Sometimes you make me angry Bleiente over in US Politics, but thank you for your contributions over here in the Sub news section. I might not have found those items without you.

You know what's sad about a submarine war between diesel submarine Navy's and countries with nuclear submarines? We probably will never know the truth even after the war is over.

Train them and send them and hope for the best :up:

[Bleiente]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yANb_52Va7E

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-class_submarine

:salute:

[Bleiente]

https://preview.ibb.co/e4MymL/Peoples-Liberation-Armys-Navy-PLAN-Type-041-YUAN-Class-SSK-Air-independent-propulsion-AIP-SUBMARINE-pn-pakistan-c802-3-yj802345-5.jpg
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
2. https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/china-deploys-diesel-electric-attack-submarine-and-rescue-vessel-in-indian-ocean/

https://preview.ibb.co/ejYK80/china-aip-sub.jpg (https://ibb.co/j1vo1L)
http://forceindia.net/cover-story/undersea-warriors/

:salute:

[Bleiente]

https://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2017/july/P-75I_Indian_Navy_Submarine_RFI_Amur-1650_SSK_Russia.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada-class_submarine

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M1LdNujAQcQ/VdwoOl9-PgI/AAAAAAAAG6w/yVHY0oxjW6A/s1600/Amur%2B1650%2Band%2BAIP.jpg
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/08/morocco-may-become-first-buyer-of.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u6YrtfWFYE&vl=de

:salute:

[Kapitan]

I dont think the Project 677 boats will take off or replace the 636.3 Kilo simply put they are not of the best design and they have already had major set back both in build and deployment

I can only say that i think it will be likely production of this type will cease after the 3rd unit is completed and they will likely just become test or training boats with limited deployments.

[Bleiente]

I think you are right @Kapitan.
The Lada class boats are built and used exclusively as test vehicles for various machine configurations as well as the resulting design.
Evolutionary is then likely to result in the expected Kalina class.

I try to sensitize people with my articles about submarines with AIP drive and modern stealth design.

A German type 212A would have to "friendly" ram a Seawolf class, so that on the Seawolf even realize that this Uboot is there.
And that's no joke. :yep:



:salute: