View Full Version : USA: Target of Illegal Immigration
The Christian right is allowing Trump to escape responsibility for the immoral policy of separating children from their parents. Have they no shame?
As a matter of recent policy, agents of the American government take children from their parents’ arms at our southern border. They are kept at separate facilities for indeterminate periods of time. The parents are jailed and the children are put in the care of non-governmental agencies, sometimes in other states. It is hard to imagine that the higher rate of incarceration and the new system of calculated injury to children would not soon overwhelm existing arrangements no matter how many shelters and beds are provided for a frightened, heartbroken population of the very young, whose miseries are intended as a disincentive to future potential border-crossers.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/03/us-immigration-
Crossing the border is no 'duck walk.'
Skybird
06-04-18, 04:48 AM
Link broken.
Why is this practice run? Deterrance?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/04/project-blitz-the-legislative-assault-by-christian-nationalists-to-reshape-america AHH...another topic.
Link broken.
Why is this practice run? Deterrance?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/03/us-immigration-ice-migrant-children-refugees?CMP=edit_2221
Skybird
06-04-18, 05:05 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/04/project-blitz-the-legislative-assault-by-christian-nationalists-to-reshape-america AHH...another topic.
A.a culture war. Well, two bloke heads going for each other, religious zealots and LGBT. Every action has reaction, and the LGBT side and the left had some party-time in past years . Trump and the opportunity he opens for orthodox Christians, is the strike-back.
I see both sides as extremists in this. And none of them will be beneficial for the US anyway, so why favouring the one over the other?
Skybird
06-04-18, 05:19 AM
First link works now.
Seems to be they separate children from illegal migrant parents who get jailed. While this may have a deterring effect (only statistics showing changes in migration rates could show that), I see no need for this family separation. They should do it like in Australia, where they get isolated and de facto held as prisoner for long time, but families are left together, I read.
The Australian model works best, it seems. Their illegal migration rate is below 2% (I read two or three years ago) of what it was in earlier times before the new polcies came into place. Its grim and absolutely discouraging, yes - and right that is why its deterring effect works so well. Illegals do not want to go there anymore.
Westerners must understand that you cannot protect a border without practicing the amount of force and determination needed for that. If you are welcoming and soft-hearted, more will come, and ever more, becasue you are welcomign and soft-hearted. The more you care for them, the more will come. Gunnar Heinsohn counted out in an article some days ago that in Africa and Arabia alone 700 million people (compare that to the misleading by the UN talking of 68 million worldwide...) want to move out and towards Europe. Until 2050 he shows this number to increase to 1.2 billion.
If we do not want to completely lose our countries that we call a home, we have to be cruel and do drastic things. Either that, or we destroy ourselves - and with us that culture and standards that allowed developments that resulted in a status that made our still homes so attractive to flee to for the others. And for some of them who tick by some supremacist religious ideology we even are just a tasty prey waiting to get conquered demographically.
Onkel Neal
06-04-18, 06:11 AM
The responsibility lies with the parents, they are setting this situation up. They know it is illegal to enter a different country without the proper paperwork and permission. If anyone is to blame for splitting up families, it's Senor Mom and Dad.
Mr Quatro
06-04-18, 10:13 AM
What if the mothers and fathers and elder family members even are encouraging the youth to cross over the border for purposes of finding a better life and send US Postal Money Orders home too.
I've heard many say that there were no jobs, no money, no hope, no future of staying in the rural areas of Mexico that they were in. In other words it was worth the chance to cross over to just be able to send money back to feed there families.
I've always thought the problem lies with Mexico itself not being able to handle any of their problems from gangsters to drugs to illegal's to compassion on the poor. :yep:
Bilge_Rat
06-04-18, 10:21 AM
typical gross exaggeration by the anti-Trump media. All the U.S. is doing is enforcing their immigration laws, Something every other nation on earth does.
Jimbuna
06-04-18, 11:23 AM
typical gross exaggeration by the anti-Trump media. All the U.S. is doing is enforcing their immigration laws, Something every other nation on earth does.
Not if you're an EU member.
em2nought
06-04-18, 11:49 AM
typical gross exaggeration by the anti-Trump media. All the U.S. is doing is enforcing their immigration laws, Something every other nation on earth does.
Not if you're an EU member.
Just the price they have to pay in order to get good döner kebab. :03:
Rockstar
06-04-18, 12:06 PM
From what little information there is about this separation issue. During the last administration a Californian federal judge ruled detaining children in a jail-like facility is not allowed. That ruling prompted the last administration to arbitrarily began releasing immigrant families into the United States.
I suppose then if this administration is going to enforce immigration laws. They will need to detain people until their asylum request can be heard. But in order to comply with the judges order they may need to move some of the children to better facilities. Having been involved in interdicting aliens at the border and repatriating them. It isn't easy for anyone and I'm sure it takes even more of a psychological toll on the parents and children.
What a savage Trump is for following the law by taking these children out of detention facilities and placing them with relatives and foster families until their parents case can be heard.
GoldenRivet
06-04-18, 07:51 PM
Look here is the issue at its core
What Trump supporters say: "illegal immigration is rampant, many of those who sneak across the border may be good and decent people, but we have no way of sorting it out, murderers, pedophiles and rapist are coming in across our southern border with them, this needs to be addressed just like every president since the 80s has promised to do. Additionally, the legal immigration process is broken and needs to be fixed so it is easier for those good and decent people who wish to immigrate to the USA legally, are more easily able to do so."
What Democrats hear: "Republicans hate immigrants of all kinds and want to wall them off from our country so no more brown people come here."
What he police do: *arrest illegals, put them in temporary holding, and then send them back to their origin country
What the media reports: *innocent families forced into concentration camp-like prisons and then forced to return to their country after perilous journey to America ends in arrest by fascists police.
i cant make it any easier than to explain it just like that so a child can understand it
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/03/us-immigration-
Crossing the border is no 'duck walk.'
Vendor this is pretty inflammatory and biased. It hardly qualifies as "news".
And BTW GoldenRivet nails it.
The responsibility lies with the parents, they are setting this situation up. They know it is illegal to enter a different country without the proper paperwork and permission. If anyone is to blame for splitting up families, it's Senor Mom and Dad.
:sign_yeah:
I see no "moral crisis". These people, no matter their intentions or motivation, are breaking our laws. Practically no one* is saying that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to enter this country at all. But there are rules and a process for becoming a legal U.S. resident. Personally, I do think that process could use some reform, but that's another topic.
*No one that isn't at least a little crazy or racist, anyway.
Skybird
06-05-18, 01:08 AM
typical gross exaggeration by the anti-Trump media. All the U.S. is doing is enforcing their immigration laws, Something every other nation on earth does.
GERMANY does not! And is proud of it!!! Moral claim trumps the law and order of the state!!!!!! We even let stay those who got negative asyulm eplies. We even interrupt the majority of operations aiming at picking up and sending back a tiny fraction of those who were found to have no legal claim to stay.
Catfish
06-05-18, 01:24 AM
If the US came to grips getting drugs under control and not importing those for billions of dollars from Mexico, the 'market' in Mexico could be broken, and at least some laws reintroduced.
The drug war in Mexico meanwhile involves all, and this is why most want to flee. Literally.
" [...]Other ideas Republican primary candidates have pondered lately include eliminating birthright citizenship (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-good-chunk-of-gop-field-wants-to-repeal-the-14th-amendment_55d24915e4b055a6dab12015), which is guaranteed by the 14th amendment to the Constitution, because some argue that it acts as a magnet for undocumented immigrants.
While these ideas might energize the GOP’s conservative base, they wouldn’t do much to deter illegal immigration, for one simple reason: All of these propositions rest on the false assumption that most undocumented immigrants are crossing into the U.S. primarily to look for a better life and a higher-paying job.
Anyone who speaks to undocumented immigrants regularly knows that they invariably view the dangerous and expensive trip into the U.S. as a last resort, usually because something went horribly wrong at home — not because of dreams of having a child who is a U.S. citizen. [...]"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/want-to-reduce-illegal-immigration-end-the-drug-war_us_55e0b5f7e4b0c818f617d3d1?guccounter=1
If you want to get a faint glimpse of what is really going on there, you could read Don Winslow's books 'The power of the dog' or 'The Cartel'. This is nothing else than war between the cartels that has spread all over the country, and they stop at nothing. From burning people alive to killing any journalist who dares to write about it, to machine-gunning families or imposing "taxes" on everyone, so bare living is becoming impossible.
Rockstar
06-05-18, 08:56 AM
All of these propositions rest on the false assumption that most undocumented immigrants are crossing into the U.S. primarily to look for a better life and a higher-paying job.
You have no idea the multitudes of people I repatriated who came to my country seeking entry. I can tell you it is not a false assumption to think the vast majority of immigrants risked everything to seek the American dream. Those who do, need to go through the same convoluted and pain in the arse bureaucratic process of obtaining citizenship or an A-card just like I had too.
Asylum seekers on the other hand usually have no idea what asylum means and because of that the vast majority of those are denied entry and repatriated. Those that did satisfy the requirements listed below were, without hesitation on our part, allowed entry. High crime rates, drugs, desperation, depression, risking it all, and useless governments aren't on the list of reasons. That's something they need to stand up too and fix just like everyone else in the world should.
Every year people come to the United States seeking protection because they have suffered persecution or fear that they will suffer persecution due to:
Race
Religion
Nationality
Membership in a particular social group
Political opinion
Definition of persecution:
1 : the act of continually treating in a cruel and harmful way
2 : the state of being continually treated in a cruel and harmful way
Catfish
06-05-18, 10:55 AM
U.S. Appetite for Mexico’s Drugs Fuels Illegal Immigration
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/us/politics/us-appetite-for-mexicos-drugs-fuels-illegal-immigration.html
Mexicans want to immigrate to the US because of dollars, "this is a "myth" created by some rich-wingy fellow who tries to spread xenophobic in the US."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-fundamental-reasons-that-so-many-Mexican-citizens-want-to-leave-their-country-and-come-to-the-US-How-do-their-circumstances-differ-from-Canada-for-example
And another myth, jobs stolen by immigrants:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/24/do-immigrants-steal-jobs-from-american-workers/
Rockstar
06-05-18, 11:51 AM
Here's another proverb: Bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
None of which you linked too are valid reasons for asylum. All it reveals is the obvious that life isn't fair and how cruel the world can be. Still my advice to potential immigrants is rise up fix your country or get in line. Either that get an airline ticket and fly into DUS. I hear they got an open door policy.
Now if they bring up the issue of racism in Mexico I would say more than a few immigrants may stand a chance of asylum. But its my understanding they don't think of or see racism as we do. Probably why its not brought up during an interview. But I think and I could be mistaken the U.S. government has to recognize the Mexican government as a racist state.
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2016/12/11/systemic-racism-mexico/
Navarrete asserts that some of the most heinous murders over the last couple of decades in Mexico show the minimization of the lives of Mexicans who live on the margins of society. He draws attention to the impunity and the Mexican government’s lack of concern for the disappearance and murder of the 43 student teachers in Ayotzinapa, Guerrero, in September 2014; the killings of hundreds of women in Ciudad Juárez in the 1990s and 2000s; the mass murder of 200 Central and South American migrants in San Fernando, Tamaulipas, in 2010 and 2011; and the mass murder of 22 individuals assumed to be narcotraffickers at the hands of Mexican soldiers in Tlatlaya on June 30, 2014. Navarrete asserts that the indigenous roots, the darker skin and the low socioeconomic standing of these victims made their lives invisible and expendable. He avers that there would be an uproar in the government and mass media, and among the elite if the victims were “beautiful” people from privileged classes.
Navarrete argues forcefully that racism in Mexico is not merely idle talk. Rather, it is pernicious and noxious. The result of racist talk, actions and behavior among Mexicans is the social exclusion and devaluation of indigenous people and persons of African origin who are seen as not really part of Mexican society — they are the “other,” people who do not count.Can you guess who is trying to make it across the border? Well I'll tellya, it sure as hell isnt Mexicans with the beautiful white European ancestry genes that's for sure.
Highbury
06-05-18, 03:53 PM
I agree that people trying to enter the country illegally should be dealt with as criminals. That said, when a family goes to a legitimate point of entry and wants to enter as refugees they are still being treated as, and referred to as illegals.
Illegals enter the country covertly, and go to ground. People asking for asylum/refugee status at the border are attempting a legal process.
U.S. Appetite for Mexico’s Drugs Fuels Illegal Immigration
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/us/politics/us-appetite-for-mexicos-drugs-fuels-illegal-immigration.html
Mexicans want to immigrate to the US because of dollars, "this is a "myth" created by some rich-wingy fellow who tries to spread xenophobic in the US."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-fundamental-reasons-that-so-many-Mexican-citizens-want-to-leave-their-country-and-come-to-the-US-How-do-their-circumstances-differ-from-Canada-for-example
Strawman argument. Nobody says that "most" Mexicans want to move to the US and the argument is about illegal (let me make this bigger so you can see it) immigration not immigration itself.
And another myth, jobs stolen by immigrants:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/24/do-immigrants-steal-jobs-from-american-workers/
Nothing but a rehash of the discredited theory that some jobs are just too dirty or difficult for us spoiled, lazy Americans that we need poor unwashed immigrants who will work for slave wages to do them for us.
Please reread GoldenRivets excellent analogy above.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3rZ5J4UMAArLGl.jpg
The Guardian are in the green bit.....
Not if you're an EU member.
The clocks ticking on that one.
em2nought
06-05-18, 10:17 PM
GERMANY does not! And is proud of it!!! Moral claim trumps the law and order of the state!!!!!! We even let stay those who got negative asyulm eplies. We even interrupt the majority of operations aiming at picking up and sending back a tiny fraction of those who were found to have no legal claim to stay.
No offense, but I'm not even sure how you guys manage to reproduce anymore. :03: Maybe that's why migrant rapes aren't frowned upon? :06:
...the discredited theory that some jobs are just too dirty or difficult for us spoiled, lazy Americans that we need poor unwashed immigrants who will work for slave wages to do them for us.
... and I think this is more of an insult to the immigrants than (as I think was intended) to Americans.
Catfish
06-06-18, 01:48 AM
"Strawman argument" eh?
But you sure know who worked and works for Trump? :haha:
Vendor this is pretty inflammatory and biased. It hardly qualifies as "news".
And BTW GoldenRivet nails it. I understand, and know about it, but a solution in both short and long term must come, and yes, I have read the GR's release.
Vendor this is pretty inflammatory and biased. It hardly qualifies as "news".
Oh this is nothing! If you think their (the Guardians) news is bad (its actually not too terrible considering), have a read of their 'opinion' section, and have some whiskey too, you'll need it - not that it will make the delusional middle class Marxism any less cringe worthy, but it might make you laugh.
"Strawman argument" eh?
But you sure know who worked and works for Trump? :haha:
Uhm I haven't met any Administration members personally if that is what you're asking.
Show me a quote with "most". Surely that should be no problem for someone so sure of themselves right?
If you think their news is bad, have a read of their 'opinion' section, and have some whiskey too, you'll need it :)It's rarely I use Guardian. But lately there have been some entries, and yes...whiskey is good,thanks buddy.Cheers:up:
It's rarely I use Guardian. But lately there have been some entries, and yes...whiskey is good,thanks buddy.Cheers:up:
Their news coverage isn't too bad, (as partisan outlets go) its really their opinion columnists who are so detached from reality - its almost impressive.
here is an absolute gem.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/is-the-term-mansplaining-sexist-google-autocomplete
Mr Quatro
06-06-18, 01:44 PM
I remember being rebuked for using The Huffington Post articles one time. So I never used them again. I was just in a hurry to prove a point to others, but yet they would not quote them.
The Huffington Post
HuffPost is a liberal American news and opinion website and blog that has both localized and international editions. It was founded in 2005
I consider my self to be quite liberal, i wouldn't mind the likes of the Guardian and the Huff post if I could consider them liberal, but i consider them authoritarian left, as they promote group identity politics, equality of outcome (communism basically), support censorship & draconian hate speech laws etc.
Not for me.
WASHINGTON/SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - U.S. authorities are transferring into federal prisons about 1,600 Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detainees, officials told Reuters on Thursday, in the first large-scale use of federal prisons to hold detainees amid a Trump administration crackdown on people entering the country illegally.
An ICE spokeswoman told Reuters five federal prisons will temporarily take in detainees awaiting civil immigration court hearings, including potential asylum seekers, with one prison in Victorville, California, preparing to house 1,000 people.
President Donald Trump has made his hard-line stance on immigration an integral part of his presidency and has promised to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexican border to stem the flow of migrants. He has also promised to keep immigrants targeted for deportation locked up “pending the outcome of their removal proceedings.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-prisons-exclusive/exclusive-u-s-sending-1600-immigration-detainees-to-federal-prisons-idUSKCN1J32W1
Next chapter.
BROWNSVILLE, Tex. — The mayor of this Texas border city has been dealing with a crisis.
This week, he declared a state of emergency. Drones filled the skies and emergency vehicles raced down the streets. But none of it had anything to do with illegal immigration.
It had to do with the weather.
A severe thunderstorm caused widespread flooding throughout the Rio Grande Valley in recent days. That other crisis — the one President Trump says has been unfolding on the border because of illegal immigration — is largely a fiction, the mayor, Tony Martinez, and other Brownsville residents and leaders said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/us/border-trump-immigration.html
It seems that the weather and refugee policy are high now.:hmmm:
lies on both sides unfortunately
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclwR-d4pT0&t=466s
Armistead
06-24-18, 02:20 PM
Our "empathy" policy has caused an exodus or kids coming here, while people scream of the treatment in detention centers, free food, medical, security, we have no clue on the mass of kids not making the trek.
No one seems to know the numbers of how many were separated under Obama, except about 500,000 were actually arrested, so even if 10% came with kids, that's a lot. The other fact not mentioned is a good majority under Trump were being separated under the same premise as Obama, while some more for zero tolerance, first time illegal entry offenders also charged with a crime.
More empathy will create more problems in a system that is already backlogged and broken. Liberals create the problem, then scream the GOP is inhumane for trying to abide by our immigration laws. It's all spin for them for elections, they could care less about all the harm they're causing for votes!
We are spending about 500 million a month just on this processing part at the border, set to double by next year. It will take billions more to fast track it or try to fix it. All these billions to basically say bring a kid and come here, just to eventually say no to about 75% of them and get them back home. Secure the border at all cost and fix our legal immigration system, or simply enforce it.
em2nought
06-24-18, 05:13 PM
This whole thing is disgusting. You can't even defend your country from an invasion if the invading army comes with nino in arms instead of firearms. It doesn't even have to be their nino, it can be one they stole along the way. :o
I was really hoping that we could hold things together long enough for me to escape from here since the liberals are dead set on the destruction of the USA. :sad:
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