Is Italy ever going to have a proper government?

[Krieg Francis]

On my side, no, since I'm Italian and I see no hope for my country :k_confused:

What do you think?

[hauangua]

On my side, no, since I'm Italian and I see no hope for my country :k_confused:

What do you think?

Condivido, Purtroppo

[Jimbuna]

Could prove difficult :)

[ChrisTayeb]

politici tutti maiale

Belgium, Greece, Spain, France...
The list of countries going sideways because of bad politicians who make bad politics seems a never ending one

Salva il popolo

[Krieg Francis]

Condivido, Purtroppo

Bello vedere un compatriota ogni tanto!

[Onkel Neal]

Krieg, I'm not up to date on Italian politics, can you provide a summary, from your point of view? You don't have a used car salesman as President too, do you?

[Skybird]

On my side, no, since I'm Italian and I see no hope for my country :k_confused:

What do you think?




https://freeprivatecities.com/


The system is corrupt by design, all in the West and all beyond that , and so it is no surprise that it produces corruption, and corrupted staff that is bred by this system that is - well, corrupt.


I am in the middle of reading that book in that link, I know the author from earlier readings on the web. Very solid arguments he has. And healthy plain reason as well.



I have quite a small library now with books arguing against this Western pathology named "democracy". Its a joke that starts already with laughing about that what we call democracy today has nothing, absolutely nothing in common with those we refer to as being the cradle of decomarcy: ancient Greece.

[Aktungbby]

The system is corrupt by design, all in the West and all beyond that , we call democracy today has nothing, absolutely nothing in common with those we refer to as being the cradle of decomarcy: ancient Greece. ...OR ANCIENT REPUBLICAN ROME! THE FIRST RULE OF POLITICS IS : 'BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH' :D....A VERY ITALIAN CONCEPT! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Vincenzo_Camuccini_-_La_morte_di_Cesare.jpg/1280px-Vincenzo_Camuccini_-_La_morte_di_Cesare.jpg
THE DAGGER HAS SIMPLY BEEN REPLACED BY A TWITTER ACOUNT BUT THE BACKSTABBING GOES ON!
:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

An old friend whose grandfather came to America from Sicily once told me they had a saying: "Any time two Italians get together you immediately have three new political parties."

[STEED]

Show me a honest government first.

[Skybird]

HuffPost Italy dropped the bomb when publishing a draft of the coalition agreement between the two parties negotiating for government currently. They want to leave the Euro, and demand a debt cut of 250 billion.



As long as Kunos Simulazioni nevertheless pushes out Assetto Corsa Competizione, I'm fine with that. :D



Meanwhile the EU plans for new members on the Balkan. Somebody has to save this ruinous club, right, so why not the economical powerplayers on the Balkan?

[Jimbuna]

Odds SLASHED on Italy to be next country to leave EU as Eurosceptic REVOLT threatens bloc

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/960827/Italy-news-today-coalition-talks-politics-latest-election-results-Italian-Matteo-Salvini

[Dowly]

...OR ANCIENT REPUBLICAN ROME!
I've always liked the "mixed constitution" system they had, the checks and balances worked quite nicely. Far from perfect of course, but for its time it worked rather well. :yep:

[ChrisTayeb]

Show me a honest government first.

Well yes, exactly!
There is in France a guy named Etienne Chouard that got my attention since 2012 or so, as he explained during the countless conferences he has given that our system is corrupt by principle because we (the people) have given up on politics to leave an elite group take care of it.
To resume quite simply, those of the elite group making the law have the keys to change at will what rules or laws they need to render us even more powerless.
Since this Etienne Chouard insists on us the people to get more active in politics by grouping up to write our own constitution and let not professional politicians do it for us.
Re-public (the people is king) or demo-cracy (the people have the power) mean more or less the same thing, which is quite far from what happens in our society, I'm asking you guys, what power do we have?
To insert a piece of paper, every once in while with someone's name on to do the job we actually don't want to do
The thing is democracy takes some doings, we have dismissed in our role of law makers, and therefore we comply with wathever those we placed in charge have decided for us, cause if you don't, well you become an outlaw.
We should reconsider, and maybe give up on some distractions to work a bit on that power we suppose to have, else others we'll do it for us

[Skybird]

Already Rousseau and Mills had understood in their time that every social contract needs the voluntary agreement of every member, of 100% of the population, else you have the many that claim the right of the stronger to enforce their will and interests against and at the cost of the few: the law of the jungle, that is, and that is what our "demicracy" today is: a jungle in whichh the bigger mob rules and enslaves the minority. You end up with that some people have interests, impose force on others who do not have anything in common with the first's interests, nevertheless get forced to pay for them. That is slavery, plain and simple. A majority vote is not the characteristic of "democracy", it only is a decision forming mechanism, not more - and it can be binding only for those who before have voluntarily agreed to accept the outcome of this process in which they themselves also participate. If you refuse to participate in it, and if you deny to give your compliance, then the demand of the majority that you should follow their wishes, cannot be considered to be ethically, morally binding for you, for you cannot be owned by other humans and thus they cannot have the right to subjugate you against your will to their command.

There is only one, only one argument in defence of a suprastructure equalling what today is called a state: defence of a group of voluntary "members" against enemies from the outside of their community. Lets be realistic, without that, every individual or every group that shows a communal, social alternative that works and aquires material wealath by that, will fall victim to a foreign plunderer who notices that and tries to steal the fruits of their labour and effort, and make them work for him. Thats how history works. Thats why humans form communities: to be stronger and defend in company, or to become stronger than a defending community so that one can overwhelm them.

Everything else, EVERYTHING, must be object to voluntary contracts between members of said community, else you again get a tryranny of the likes we have in the world everywhere now. And you only pay for what yiou have ordered and agreed a contract over, you must not pay for what others want to impose in obligations on you against your will. A small elitist group of leaders today claims the right to tell everybody what he must do, and what he must pay. But there is nothing that a state can provide better and more competitvely, than the competition of the market could bring. Worse, the state, as a monopolist of power, education and violence, can abuse his position at will to secure the interests of the parasites who made their nest within its supply structure. And it does, excessively. This is not democracy - not in the distorted modern understanding of the term, and not in the meaning of the term in ancient Greece. It simply is tyranny, and it never can be anything else than tyranny. A mixture of oligarchy and ochlocracy.

When the only justification for state's existence is that he shall serve as a defender of the community to the outside, and people pay for it, for maintaining a military, that is, then this state has a contract with the population. So, when the state refuses to fulfill his legal obligations, if he refuses to secure the borders, if he fails to confront aggressors from the outside, then he is 1.) violating his obligations by the contract he has with the population, and he is 2.) failing the only reason for which an existence of a state-like super-structure can be considered as necessary and reasonable, and thus 3.) beign a violator to the contract, this state cannot expect or demand that the other side in this contract - the people - nevertheless pay for it and stay loyally committed to the contract's purpose and regulations, or the state itself. What wonder then if people turn their backs on the state and refuse to care for it any longer. Only a fool stays committed to a treaty with a partner who betrays him and unilaterally rewrites the treaty at any opportunity he sees fit to do so.

I mentioned the book by Titus Gebel, and his website, somewhere above. He argues from the perspective of a lawyer (that he is, also a businessman). And his writings show that, they are not just theoretical fantasizing, but sink real nails in real wood and adress the real nitty-gritty of the practical world we live in. So far the best book I have had on the issue of private cities replacing national states and their inherent corruption and inherent tyranny and abuse. His books makes me even angrier than I already am, which means he got it right.

Over the years I have sometimes been accused to be a nationalist, or a sympathiser of classical statehood, because I call Islam he enemy of all free mankind, and oppose almost all of this contempory leftist Zeitgeist that is en vogue again currently. But nothing could be more distant from the truth. I do not oppose the EU because I want back a classical national state, but because the EU is the exponentiation of all the principles for which i already dislike and oppose the idea and conception of "state". If I oppose a state already, how could I not contradict myself if then sympathising with a mega-state and even less freedom? That makes no sense.

I am for freedom, and self-responsible decisions - full stop. Every step any politician or party makes beyond this, debunks this poltician and party as somebody who wants to command me, wants to control what is mine, wants to steal from me, and wants to live his worthless existence and function at expense of my ressources. Thats why I call this scum parasites, and anti-social, and gangsters, criminals. If you want to do work "in the world" and "for the better of man", this does not already give you claim over me, for me needing to obey your orders, even if you have many behind you (that is just the stronger ones threatening to overwhelm the weaker ones), for me needing to hand over to you my ressources so that you can use them as if they were not mine, but yours. They are not yours. You can walk around with an open hat and ask people to support your idea with a donation, or you run a donation gala. You ask. But having taxes enforced to pay your ambitions, is blackmailing protection money, and enforcing payments for special interest groups' oh so very special interests, is robbery and plundering. The whole redistribution schemes beign run by the state today, are just this: interest groups versus interest groups, everybody trying to get a better overall net outcome in his favour.

What an idiotic show. What a contempt shown for freedom and self-responsibility. What stellar amount of cynism in calling this "liberty".

Freedom. One golden rule. Beyond that, shoot "states" when you see them - and every parasite making his livng by robbing from you in the state's name. Be patriotic if oyu think you want to be that, for that means to love the people you stem from - but never accept to pledge your allegiance to a state. Never. In the end, that simply is as fascist as it can get. Patriotism, okay, I can live with that. Nationalism- confront it.

If they want to put all the world onto your shoulders - shrug it off.



Just shrug.

[STEED]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/960827/Italy-news-today-coalition-talks-politics-latest-election-results-Italian-Matteo-Salvini

Dribble news bought to you by the Express. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Only time will tell.

[Skybird]

Dribble news bought to you by the Express. :03:
As I said on page 1, the bomb was dropped by HuffPost Italy - they got anonymously a draft of the coalition treaty negotiated at that time. When it became known, both parties ruddered back, and in the treaty they now handed to the president leaving the Euro no longer gets mentioned (but obviously the intetion is nevertheless there), but the demand to get a debt cut of 250 billion is included, also the demand that EU treaties should be renegotiated.


Well. Treaties and laws do not mean anything in and for the EU and ECB, anyway. They break, violate, bend and bypass them all the time. Its not the exception - its the rule.


Its all just inkpissing and paragraphturning, circensis for the plebs in the street to get their approval for one's own claim to power and money-devaluation.


Die dümmsten Kälber wählen sich ihre Metzger selber. (The stupidest calves choose their butchers themselves).

[STEED]

Only time will tell.


Yea just like Greece. :har:

[Skybird]

By the published government program they handed in to the president, Italy has declared war on Germany and other net payers, on the ECB, the EU, and has declared money to be completely pointless.


Interesting to see whzat Germany will do if this goes through. The German finance ministry was given to the red-socialists of the SPD as a price for Merkel's fourth reign of horror. The SPD already is in support for the money-frenzy wished for by Superfranconia's flying Macronman.


Did you guess it? The average household wealth in Italy is higher than in Germany. Germany and Belgium also are the two highest taxied nations. In net robbery, over half of the earned money of German ordinary employees get plundered by the state,and state-enforced "services".

[Jimbuna]

By the published government program they handed in to the president, Italy has declared war on Germany and other net payers, on the ECB, the EU, and has declared money to be completely pointless.


Interesting to see whzat Germany will do if this goes through. The German finance ministry was given to the red-socialists of the SPD as a price for Merkel's fourth reign of horror. The SPD already is in support for the money-frenzy wished for by Superfranconia's flying Macronman.


Did you guess it? The average household wealth in Italy is higher than in Germany. Germany and Belgium also are the two highest taxied nations. In net robbery, over half of the earned money of German ordinary employees get plundered by the state,and state-enforced "services".

Do you think this is going to become a trend amongst EU member states Sky?

[Catfish]

^ you hope :03:

I don't think so. Maybe some smaller countries will, but they are more of a liability than an asset anyway. Reform the union with European nations which stand to EU values, and are financially strong enough.

The EU has tried to influence nationalist regimes by letting them join the EU, i say kick them out.
Italy will not leave, believe me.

And Turkey does not need to become an EU member to be in the NATO. Not that Erdoghan does not flirt with Putin though.

[Skybird]

Maybe you know that in the board of directors of the ECB there is a rotation mechanism established. In frequent intervals, two member states have to stay out for one governing period. The mechanism as well as the the weighing of voting voices is such that net receivers in the Euro zone always have the majority and can always out-vote net payers, if decisions must be formed by majority votes of any kind. And an industrial heavy weight like Germany or - so far - the UK have the same voting weight like an economic dwarf like Malta.

Considering this, you can easily answer your question yourself, Jim. ;) Net payers now are easy to be blackmailed, for they have enormous amounts of leased "money" in the fire. Germany's total Target-2-saldi now count over one trillion Euros. Eine Billionen in German, one trillion in English. Money that is de facto lost for Germany, that is stupidly leased away, without any securities given, and will never be see again. Three times the German yearly GDP, 3.3 times the British GDP.

Two more points: the "tragedy of the commons " (Tragik der Almenden), and the attempt to invest ever more ruinously into a lost cause just so to delay the revelation of that it all is lost indeed: this way, the losses are allowed to grow bigger and bigger.

Finally, the fact that after 200 years we must realise that the experiment of "democracy" in modern understanding (and the very different ancient understanding of it anyway) has spectacularly failed. The concept is a total misconception, and in principle bases on the law of the jungle. Modern democracy always leads to oligarchy, ochlocracy, socialist redistribution and expropriation. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy of what it claims it wants to prevent. We allow psychopaths and narcissists to speak and act on our behalf, and we allow them to not being held responsible for their failures and wrong decisions, the worst that cna happen to them is that they do not get vote dinto office agai8n, and keep all their pension claism nevertheless, and must not fear to lose any of their accumulated wealth. There is a reaosn why the literature oin argment against demicracy is growing. Because democracy has - necessarily! - failed. The modern understanding of it bases on socialist ideology, in principle, and ignores, like socialism, the essences of human nature. What it has done since the medieval is to replace th tyranny of the one by a tyranny of the few. Those in power use the power to form the rules of the game so that they are in their favour and defence. The other thus must base on thes eloaded laws, these fulham laws. The state breaks the same laws and unilaterally changes them like those controlling it want them to be. There is no law and order in the Western states anymore - and nobody realises it! ;) Goivenrm,ents breka laws and treaties, and it has no consequences. Call them out for it, and you get demonised for moral excuses. Most voters - are incompetent in understanding and education and character to honour the responsibility the right to vote brings. The most noble duty of a democrat is called by Jason Brennan to not m ake use of it, to not vote. For everybody of us has the natural right to not be negatively affected by the stupidity and irresponsibility of our "next".

The money is broken. The indispensable standard for functuoning market comparisons thus is not avialable anymore, so market distortions necessarily accumulate, stockpile higher and higher into the air. And this is not even being understood by laughably so-called experts getting an education by so-called central banks!

The writing is on the wall, Jim. At every block, at every corner. For Germany for example it will mark the fifth total system failure and collapse since 1870.

I fear the collapse of the EU, for I think I will not be amongst those who will make through it that easily. I have all my current life to lose, my wealth - but then, I have to lose not more wealth than what the current state is plundering from me anyway. And still, there is this truly non-ego part in me that sees it from a historian's, form a traveller's point of view who does not participate in a siutuation, only travels through it, observes it, but does not take place and is not part of it. And this part knows that the EU must be destroyed, else the tyranny it will cast will become the most total one this continent has ever seen.

When there is just one mega-state, then everbyody not agreeing with this state's views has no more place to go. When there is just one state'S self-maintaining elite, there is no instance left that could quesiton its abuse of power to form the rules and laws as these elites want them to serve their interests best. We speak of a level of totalitanriansim that so far has been unimaginablew in history. Total, absolute power, one single dictate of thinking, opinion, way of life. No escape, no alternatives. This is where the wanted federal state of Europe is heading. Already now they try to criminalise disagreement with the EU's self-understanding, and criticising it. That is just the beginning. They will be successful with estabvlishing this totalitarinaism, becasue it come sin d isguise, it gets sold as humanitarianism and altruism and good-doership. Then disagreeing with the general trend and views means you are anti-humanistic, egoistic, and evil doing. And this you can see being practiced in the mainstream media already as well.

---

The way to go is to become small, and diverse, and numerous - the opposite of becoming bigger, and fewer, and unified. The will not be no mor wars and no mor ecirme, but they will shrink to levels that can be handeled again. There will not be no more corruption, but corruption of smaller dim ensions that does less harm and is easier to be fought. One fool, one stupid blockhead alone cannot spell desaster anymore for a continent of half a billion people. But an EU as only remaining instance of power anymore: one wrong decision at the top, and it spells ruin for the whole continent.

The idea is not new, that "small is beautiful". I already read about it thirty years ago in the writings by Leopold Kohr (an Austrian-born). Another name to mention is Ernst Friedrich Schumacher (a German born British economist).

Heck. This is a wiiiide ground to cover.:hmmm:

[JU_88]

I think the EU as an institution is on an irreversible but steady downward slope now.
Socially and Economically the odds against its survival are stacking up. And I don't see the political pendulum swinging back in its favor anytime soon either.
Its been riding on the back of decades of growth in progressive post-modernist ideas and politics in the west (open borders, centralized currency and political correctness to name a few)- all of which are now just starting to go out of fashion just about everywhere -but the institutions and metropolitan areas.
Couple that with its mishandling of the economic crisis, then the migrant crisis and its opposition to democracy (when it doesn't go the right way). In the long term, I don't see it making a come back from that but we'll see.

[STEED]

Italian PM-designate Giuseppe Conte has given up his bid to form a government after the country's president vetoed his choice of economy minister.http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44275010


Cracks? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

The bomb is ticking. Italy is the block's predetermined breaking point.

Spain is under pressure.

France is as well.

Portugal.

Greece anyway.

The Euro crisis - never was gone away in the past ten years. And the time is approaching when even the most enthusiastic opportunists cannot deny anymore that there is no life in this still-birth named "Euro". You cannoit make money out fo nothing. You cannot make a money that is not an ordinary common good, fully decided on by markets. You just cannot. Politicians fantasizing about controlling the money, and bankers babbling of central banks, and economists committing economic mass destruction by claiming inflation is positive and must be artificially boosted, should be slaughtered in place, immediately, without remorse, like rabid dogs sneaking around a Kindergarden.

For Germany, the financial losses will be astronomical. We have trillions in the fire. Trillions. Trillions that the German leaders gave away headlessly, planlessly, for nothing else but illusions, buying time, hoping for the fairy queen to save it all. For other countries, a total state collapse is absolutely possible. I shiver when considering what this German gang of gangster and know-it-alls then will impose on the German people to compensate for the German brain beasts' oh so very many mistakes. Special taxes. Enforced disadvantageous exchange rates Euro- new D-Mark. Enforced mortgages on property that is debt-free. Enforced stocks expropriation. Gold prohibition or penalty taxes on sales with gold. Socialist "solidarity" taxes wioth our dear brothers and sisters in the other great EU countries. New paper money with wanted inbuild inflation.

We have had it almost all already in Germany, and repeatedly. We have had it all before. Repeatedly.

Frightening outlooks.

But when you allow psychopaths and narcissists to command withouht being held responsible for their commanding, if you allow them to never needing to be liable with their own private possessions and lives, if you allow them to define the laws of the law and order state to their liking and to make them so that they protect them, if you allow them to exclude themsleves form the consequences of what they impose in rules and commands and policies on the ordinary people - then what else do you expect? What else do you deserve? How could you dare to dream of not getting caught by what you allowed to be done in your name, with your legalization and agreement ?

There will come what may, and people may get hit as hard as they must suffer - but pity is most unjustified here. We spoke by our silent acceptance. We get what we have asked for. That is justice. There can be no justice without causal responsibility. Only where causal respopnsibility is given,t he question of and demand for justice makes sense - without it, its a pointless call or question.

[Jimbuna]

I happen to agree with a lot of what you posted above Sky but I feel absolutely gutted for the German public who will arguably suffer the greatest collective burdon then lose some of that feeling when as I suspect they will probably refuse to hold Merkel et al to account.

Some might say 'sheeple'

[Skybird]

Servile, I say.

But its not just Merkel. The whole idea of modern interpretation of democracy imo is a failed experiment. There is a reason why more and more literature gets published that put "democracy" itself into doubt. I know some of those books. Some of them are dynamite, and substantially robust in their thoughts and criticsm.

The problem is not the personnel, because the personnel is just the consequences of the system. The system itself is the problem. A state whose actors and institutions must not face competition and must not be object themselves to civil laws valid for every ordinary man or businessman. The breed of characters dominating in this system, is no surprise at all - its a logical consequences, based on a system that systematically sets the wrong incentives. You get people who reserve the right to put force on other people, and you get states that claim to possess (and milk) their citizens.

If it would not have been Merkel, it would have been somebody else like her.

"Wer von der Politik vernünftige Entscheidungen erwartet, hat nicht begriffen, daß der Wille zur Macht größer ist als alle Vernunft." - Roland Baader, economist, publicist, liberal thinker ("Those who expect reasonable decisions from politics have failed to realize that the will to power is greater than all reason.")

"Nimm vom Staat das Recht weg, was bleibt dann übrig als eine große Räuberbande?" - Augustinus of Hippo, Roman philosopher and theologican ("Take the law away from the state, what else is then left than a big band of robbers?")

"Wenn Plündern für eine Gruppe in der Gesellschaft zur Lebensart wird, schafft sie im Laufe der Zeit ein Rechtssystem, welches dies legalisiert, und einen Moralkodex, der es glorifiziert." - Claude-Frederic Bastiat, economist, poltiican.("When plunder becomes a way of life for a group in society, over time it creates a legal system that legalises it, and a moral code that glorifies it.")

"Jedermann kann öffentlich sein Interesse am Eigentum des anderen bekunden und diesem Verlangen nachgehen, vorausgesetzt er findet den Zugang zur Regierung. Daher wird in einer Demokratier jedermann zu einer Bedrohung. Konsequenterweise wird unter demokratischen Bedingungen das Begehren nach dem Eigentum anderer Leute systematisch gestärkt." - Hans-Hermann Hoppe, philosopher, critic of democracy ("Anyone can publicly express an interest in the other's property and pursue that desire, provided he finds access to the government. Therefore, in a democracy, everyone becomes a threat. Consequently, under democratic conditions, the desire for other people's property is systematically strengthened.")

What Hoppe says, is socialism. Thats why I - and in other places Hoppe as well - say that democracy always necessarily lead towards socialism.

If you want real liberty, you must abandon politics itself. Politics always are in themselves anti-liberty. The bigger a state, the fewer states there are - the bigger its inherent problems the less these problems can be monitored, tackled, solved, the more drastic and far reaching the consequences are of misled decisions of the decision makers at the top.

Thats in a nutshell the most profound reason why I am against organisations like the EU, UN, and other institutions on supra-state level. They breed totalitarianism, and socialism, they do so even more than single states. Necessarily, unavoidably.

In the end, nobody has the right to live his life at the cost and expense of somebody else. But this most profound principle gets violated all the time, and the violation gets glorified.

"Wer nicht verstehen will, daß die Besten ihre Länder längst wie gute Arbeitgeber aussuchen, den bestraft das Leben." - Gunnar Heinsohn, sociologist, economist, social philosopher ("Anyone who does not want to understand that the best have long since chosen their countries like they chose a good employer, will be punished by life.")

[Catfish]

Italy has its 65th government since the end of WW2.
I would not blame this on the EU :haha:

[Jimbuna]

They need Berlusconi back to sort everything out :O:

[Catfish]

^ Maybe Julius Caesar would be more appropriate :D

[Aktungbby]

^ Maybe Julius Caesar would be more appropriate :D U PLAGIARIST!:O:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2553101&postcount=8 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2553101&postcount=8)

[Hawk66]

It is easy to bash on the EU, it would be more honest to face the real issue: The countries in the EU, which have those severe economical issues have just lost their competitiveness. It is as simple as that. People in Asia work harder, are more innovative, why not face the truth. That is the first step to alter the situation.

That is the core reason and all other stuff (Euro) might worsening the situation but is not the root cause. You do not need to find any conspiracy and other weird explanations.

Frankly I cannot hear this 'establishment' nonsense anymore. The people get the government which they deserve in a democracy. If people are not interested in some complexities of our current world, nobody needs to be astonished when they vote for parties, which promise simple solutions. I guess that is true for more or less all Western countries.

You do not need to study to realize that if you borrow money that you have to pay back.

Yes, I know some folks want that he EU will be gone, the world before it was simply so great, wasn't it ? If some countries continue not making their homework, we will face again a divided Europe, but this time we cannot blame the Soviets anymore...

[mapuc]

I know they had an election back in March and two of their rightwing party got most of the votes.

Liga Nord and five star-something.

As I see it, the people want a different type of parliament= Lesser EU, Lesser Refugees/Immigrants

Now the President have asked a person, who, if I have heard correctly, are very EU positive to create/build/other word a government.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

A pretty good article (IMHO) about the current Italian crisis:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/italy-crisis-2018-explained-political-financial-markets-euro-five-star-sergio-mattarella-a8374091.html

[JU_88]

Looks like they just managed to cobble something together.

https://news.sky.com/story/italys-populist-parties-say-conditions-met-for-government-11391195

[Skybird]

https://i.imgur.com/rAKLdnt.jpg
Der Tagesspiegel


Silent tolerance from me. These parties and politicians are not my friends nor do their political and economical views represent mine - but I

let them do unopposed the work of eroding the EU and Euro further, pushing both further over the cliff.


Once the EU has gone, political parties of any flavour have to go, too, of course. Everything positive I can envision, cannot be had with

political acting being around. I only have doubts that people undertand this. Realistically I must expect that once the EU is dead, people

demand that the same mistakes like last time immediately should be started to be made once again. And what else maybe to expct in a

society with an overaged demography like Europe's?



Still, a tiny chance still is more than no chance. One thing is certain, though: this century is set to become a hell of a rough ride.

[JU_88]

[IMG]
....people demand that the same mistakes like last time immediately should be started to be made once again.


Ain't that the truth :O: I think the EU will stagger on, (until all the moneys gone at least.) But i don't see them lasting too far in to this century either.

Ps, that picture is massive SB! I'm getting horizontal scroll bars on 22" display.
I have a feeling the mods wont like it much (and not just because of the size)

[Skybird]

Monumental pictures for monumental fossiles. :D


Actually I copied over a smaller version of it, but once posted, it blew up in size by itself.

[Jimbuna]

Looks a better fit now.

[STEED]

The EU will only morph into another nightmare and sell it to the people and they shall clap and cheer in most part. A few will see it for what it is a nightmare but that is some time down the road. As for Italy in the here and now they will remain in the EU.

[Rockstar]

I really don't pay that much attention to the E.U. unless its the subject at Subsim, then it gets me to read a bit about it.



https://www.cfr.org/article/italys-new-government-could-be-force-finally-breaks-europe


...When Italy’s newly elected populists promise to cut taxes and raise spending, they are merely extending the pattern. Their principal innovation is to be brazen about it — and to compare modern Germans to Nazis even as they flout German-backed deficit caps. This will only harden Northern European opposition to centralized bank backstops and so paradoxically entrench the doom loop that perpetuates those incentives for the Italian government to borrow. How does this game end? In the short term, Europe’s economy is enjoying a cyclical upswing and the central bank is buying bonds via its quantitative easing program, so a crisis is unlikely. But in the longer term, Italy’s debt ratio seems headed into the stratosphere. When the next downturn comes, Europe may find itself dealing with a basket case many times the size of Greece during the last crisis. Greece was small enough to be containable. Italy will be too big to fail, and perhaps too big to save.

[Skybird]

The factor by which Italy's crisis in the end will effect Europe more than Greece's does, is 10+.

Even France itself is a fiscal problem. And wants to become an even bigger one, according to Macronman'S flightplan.

I asked this severla times before in the past twenty years, and still wait for the first mainstream politicians to answer it correctly: when the apple costs one thaler and you have three thalers, how many apples can you buy at max?

Hint : the answer is a number with not two or more digits. That reduces the number of possible answers to only ten. One out of ten: for heaven's sake - by mere chance and luck somebody should have mentioned the correct solution by now, due to mere luck and guessing at least.


In 2008, the OECD states had accumulated debts of 25 trillion. Today, ten years later, they have almost doubled to 45 trillion.

And I read that if you count all companies' and corporations debts, all private households' debts and all banks' debts together, you end up with a number in the range of 233 trillion dollar - 37% more than 2008.


Both the FED and the ECB have primary guilt to admit here. Investors need to take ever greater risks to acchieve ever smaller gains and profits. The share of uncompetitive business compoanies that normally already would have been removed form the market, but are kept alive to live a zombie's life, has almost quadrupled.

The situation is extremely dangerous and unstable, more so than 2007, 2008, or 2003, or in the late 80s.