Alexander Litvinenko Part II anybody?

[Jimbuna]

The attempted murder of ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, using a nerve agent was a "brazen and reckless attack", Amber Rudd has said.

Both Col Skripal and his daughter are still critically ill after being found collapsed on a bench in Salisbury city centre on Sunday.

Counter-terrorism officers are working to find the origin of the nerve agent.

The fact the nerve agent is "very rare" will help the investigation narrow its focus.

Making nerve agents and delivering them requires considerable infrastructure and the more unusual the agent the easier it will be to locate which country, even which laboratory, might be involved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734

Hopefully all of those affected will make a recovery and the guilty party brought to justice...only a matter of time.

[Commander Wallace]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734

Hopefully all of those affected will make a recovery and the guilty party brought to justice...only a matter of time.


^ Agreed :yep:

[Catfish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734
[...] and the guilty party brought to justice...only a matter of time.

Cynical mode? We all know who did it.
Chances they are brought to justice? Non-existent.

[Jimbuna]

Cynical mode? We all know who did it.
Chances they are brought to justice? Non-existent.

I fear you are correct but....

But if suspicions about Russia are confirmed, then some kind of action seems inevitable.

The legacy of the 2006 Litvinenko case shows that expelling diplomats alone may not be regarded as much of a deterrent to future acts.

Economic sanctions on the Russian elite may have more bite, but would require greater political will.

[Skybird]

the guilty party brought to justice...only a matter of time.

The Russian secret service brought to a court? Don't bet money on that.

[Skybird]

I fear you are correct but....
Those sanctions do not work well. And bite Western companies with greater effect than the Russian power elites need to fear them.

They play their games tough, becasue it is games that are meant to be played tough. And thats why they get successfully away with it.

[Mr Quatro]

Like a BIC lighter this act started with hate in someones heart to revenge a wrong ... that hate must be addressed properly or it will strike again.

The fear this act generates is also a premeditated one :yep:

[Skybird]

Hate has most likely nothing to do with it, but cool calculation. Its a message to anybody considering to spy on Russia as a double agent: "You can run, but you will pay."

Its the attempt of spionage deterrance.

[August]

Hate has most likely nothing to do with it, but cool calculation. Its a message to anybody considering to spy on Russia as a double agent: "You can run, but you will pay."

Its the attempt of spionage deterrance.


Maybe the western intelligence agencies ought to respond in kind. A few Russian big shots end up dead it might give them a reason to reconsider that deterrent.

[mapuc]

If it is Russia who is behind this

The question is what the government in London will do.

The hardest response would be to kick out some Russians diplomats and/or recall the English Ambassador in Russia.

Or as some of you have mentioned.

I don't think the government will use the eye for an eye -thing.

Markus

[Skybird]

Maybe the western intelligence agencies ought to respond in kind. A few Russian big shots end up dead it might give them a reason to reconsider that deterrent.
Maybe, it then comes down to who is the stronger bully - and what society finds it easier to adapt to the idea that there are own losses. There is a certain shyness spreading in the wEst that will put the West at a disadvantage here. Western outrage at the brutal fighting method in Syria or the "underhandedness" in the Eastern Ukraine operation, illustrate this, and imply that Wetsenr people would find it disgustign to act like that themselves. whicvh might be the reason why the West currently falls back at all burning fronts in the world: war, intel, cyberwar.

Tough games like these simply are not be meant to be played gently and concerned for the opponent's wellbeing.

[Catfish]

"Vladimir Putin as warned Russia's enemies they will 'be served with poison' as police revealed a Russian spy and his daughter were 'targeted specifically' with nerve agent."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5473277/Vladimir-Putin-warns-enemies-Russia-swallow-poison.html

http://news.trust.org//item/20180309112040-yjhx8/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/06/poisoned-umbrellas-and-polonium-russian-linked-uk-deaths

[Jimbuna]

Should it be proven that Russia is behind this attack I should imagine the worst that can be expected would be travel bans and the freezing of assets of anyone suspected of being involved. Furthermore, trade sanctions could be imposed which if hard enough would or could reflect badly against Putin as they began to take an economic effect.

The above is purely speculation of course.

[Skybird]

Furthermore, trade sanctions could be imposed which if hard enough would or could reflect badly against Putin as they began to take an economic effect.


Isnt the same said about the sanctions already in place since years? ;) It was predicted that Russia already should have financially collapsed, instead their state fiances have improved. It was said their food imports would make them vulnerable, now their food prpductions has grown and solidified. It was said their oil imports are nice prey for sanctions, they meanwhile have signed new deals.

Its Russia we talk of, not some small banana republic in Latin America. There's still some life in that old dog. ;)

[Jimbuna]

So what would you suggest as an alternative?

[Aktungbby]

A source familiar with the investigation told the BBC the agent was likely to be rarer than the Sarin gas thought to have been used in Syria (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39500947) and in an attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995.
And it was said not to be VX - the nerve agent used to kill the half brother (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43312052) of the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un in Malaysia last year.
Earlier, Ms Rudd told the BBC the nerve agent used in the poisoning was "very rare". WE NEED TO HIRE KIM JUNG UN'S TWO ESCAPED AGENTS FROM THE HALF-BROTHER MALAYSIA EPISODE; PAY THEM EXCEEDINGLY HANDSOMELY, AND SEND THEM TO VISIT VLADIMIR PUTIN...:haha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whQQpwwvSh4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whQQpwwvSh4)

[Catfish]

A direct decisive punch on P.'s nose, not to be backtraced, but without leaving a doubt from where the 'greetings' come.
Unfortunately i guess the british network in Russia cannot be compared 'to vice versa', though.

[Skybird]

So what would you suggest as an alternative?
Focussing on becomingn stronger ourselves.

But with today's gentle pussycat attitude in the West, that is daydreaming. There is a reason why the tough bullies are on the offensive around the globe, and why the West is being defeated time and again, falls back, talks, cries and does symbolic acts.

Why should the bully stop being a bully if being a bully works for him so well?

Firsts go first. Becoming stronger and more determined ourselves: thats it in a nutshell. Lets leave symbolic things to archeologists. The stronger one will not voluntarily agree to weaken himself to make us strong in relation to him. We need to become strong by ourselves. To lend (and bend :) ) from I think Tukydides: the strong one does what he wants - the weaker suffers what he must.

Or not Tukydides, I always mix them old dead men up.

[mapuc]

As I wrote before

The strongest response the English government could send to Putin is

Deportation of Russian diplomats and take home the British ambassador.

This would be a stronger message than more economical sanctions which seems to have no effect.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

WE NEED TO HIRE KIM JUNG UN'S TWO ESCAPED AGENTS FROM THE HALF-BROTHER MALAYSIA EPISODE; PAY THEM EXCEEDINGLY HANDSOMELY, AND SEND THEM TO VISIT VLADIMIR PUTIN...:haha:

too cruel and it wouldn't work anyway ... don't you believe in innocent till proven guilty :o


Skripal's son died at 43 and his wife at 60 while still in Russia ... England or the USA traded ten spies for him and two others.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-03-08/the-poisoning-of-former-russian-double-agent-sergei-skripal?int=undefined-rec

Skripal was pardoned by then-President Dmitry Medvedev and put on a plane for Vienna, where in July 2010 he was exchanged, along with three others, for the 10 Russian spies caught in the United States.

The spy swap, one of the biggest since the Cold War, took place on the tarmac of Vienna airport where a Russian and a U.S. jet parked side by side before the agents were exchanged.

One of the Russian spies exchanged for Skripal was Anna Chapman, who was feted as a hero by Moscow on her return.

WHY WAS HE IN SALISBURY?

Since emerging from the John le Carre world of high espionage and betrayal, Skripal lived modestly in Salisbury and kept out of the spotlight until he was found unconscious on Sunday.

His house in Salisbury was bought for 260,000 pounds ($360,000) in 2011. Skripal was listed at living there under his own name. In the years since he found refuge in Britain, Skripal lost both a wife and son.

His son Alexander died on July 18, 2017 aged 43 in St Petersburg, British media reported. The details are unclear.

His wife Liudmila died on Oct. 23, 2012 of cancer at the age of 60, according to British media. Reuters has not confirmed the exact cause of death of either.




I hear a policeman is also under this nerve agent effects as some twenty others also. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

The Police Officer is now conscious and in a stable condition but Skripal and his daughter remain in a critical condition.

[Rockstar]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uk-deploys-military-in-russia-spy-attack-probe-1821849

Moscow has reacted angrily to the accusations it was involved, with Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Friday dismissing them as baseless "propaganda".

On Thursday, however, Russian state TV presenter Kirill Kleimyonov had appeared to deliver a veiled warning, saying: "Don't choose England as your future country of residence... whether you are a professional traitor to the motherland or whether you hate your country in your spare time."

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXbvchNaipw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGU10oQ5Z6k

[Rockstar]

https://pics.onsizzle.com/ministers-of-defence-italy-netherlands-germany-norway-albania-mio-usa-8857858.png

[Catfish]

^ ouch. :o

[Jimbuna]

:haha:

[Catfish]

Nice to see how the western allies adopted the german motto so well :D
On the other hand, this wisdom is as old as Sparta (at least).

General Mattis said this in a speech in Norway in front of combat units, if i remember right (did not look up inn the internet, so may be right – or wrong)

To make clear that during any mission, you have to have the will to really kill the enemy. Which may not be said aloud, today. Which again is why school bullies like Putin have so much success.

[Skybird]

https://pics.onsizzle.com/ministers-of-defence-italy-netherlands-germany-norway-albania-mio-usa-8857858.png
You nailed it. :up:

This war historian obviously considers the implications quite significant, else he would not spend so much time of his workings on the matter. And I agree with his basic line of thought (and empirical argument):
https://www.amazon.com/Privileged-Sex-Martin-van-Creveld/dp/1484983122/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1520724203&sr=8-5&keywords=martin+van+creveld&dpID=410rbL0wijL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch
This one I currently read, in English:
https://www.amazon.com/Equality-Impossible-Martin-van-Creveld/dp/9527065526/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1520724203&sr=8-6&keywords=martin+van+creveld
This one i have repeatedly recommended by now:
https://www.amazon.com/Pussycats-Rest-Keeps-Beating-West/dp/1533232008/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520724203&sr=8-1&keywords=martin+van+creveld&dpID=41OMXeycsLL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Grim perspectives for the West.

But always keep smiling, always stay optmistic and well-entertained!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2542784&postcount=503
http://www.taz.de/picture/826449/624/59160535.jpg

When the wild men have enough of getting ridiculed and demonised and mocked and feminised and seeing the undeserving being preferred to themselves - why would they want to continue doing the tough part of the show, and once they left: who will stand on guard to protect the Western oh so socialised and civilised and feminised societies against the much more determined wild men of our foes and rivals?

I know just one thing for certain. If thirty years ago I would have made other decisions and indeed would have opted for a career in the BW (it was an alternative I seriously considered for some time), I meanwhile would have bailed out in frustration and anger already many years ago. I knew three such men over the years. And they all turned their backs on the BW early, against their lifetime plan, and for the reasons implied here, and often mentioned by me. Seen that way, my choice was correct.

[Jimbuna]

Former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia, Theresa May has told MPs.

The PM said the government concluded it was "highly likely" Russia was responsible for the Salisbury attack.

The Foreign Office summoned Russia's ambassador to provide an explanation.

Mrs May said if there is no "credible response" by the end of Tuesday, the UK would conclude there has been an "unlawful use of force" by Moscow.

The chemical used in the attack, the PM said, has been identified as being part of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856

Can't say I'm surprised especially when taking into account Russias track record in the Crimea, Ukraine and Syria to name just a few.

[Catfish]

I have an idea about how to react:
Threaten Russia with a forever debate in parliament.
This is probably what Merkel would do :03:

[mapuc]

According to the news here in Denmark

The Government in London have put forward two question

1. Was it you(Russia) who did it ?
2. Have you fully control over you chemical weapon

I understand they(Russia) have until tomorrow 8 pm.

I would add an additional question

3. Have you(Putin) Fully control over your agencies

There is a very small possibility that someone have acted without Putin's knowledge or approval.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

I have an idea about how to react:
Threaten Russia with a forever debate in parliament.
This is probably what Merkel would do :03:

I watched the Theresa May Parliamentary speech earlier and the cross party responses that followed and was surprised at all the dirty deeds that were brought back to the forefront.

[Catfish]

[...]
There is a very small possibility that someone have acted without Putin's knowledge or approval. Markus

This will be Putin's answer, and "those responsible for this eeeevil deed will be punished. Or something. Promised!"

[Skybird]

May set up an ultimatum, but forgot the part of the sentence that followed the word "else".

There is nothing Britian can do to hurt the Russians over this. Sanctions? Ha! Exchange of diplomatic staff? Ha-Ha! No more mutual consulations on something? Ha! Ha! Hahaha!

Its stupid to raise ultimatums when you have no threat to set up. Its all symbolic word-shelling. Scorer of the day however was Corbyn, demanding to not even stop talking. He probably dreams of shaking Putin's hand to death.

[mapuc]

@ Skybird

What should or could they do then ?

Just sit tight and say, well we can't do anything ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

May set up an ultimatum, but forgot the part of the sentence that followed the word "else".

There is nothing Britian can do to hurt the Russians over this. Sanctions? Ha! Exchange of diplomatic staff? Ha-Ha! No more mutual consulations on something? Ha! Ha! Hahaha!

Its stupid to raise ultimatums when you have no threat to set up. Its all symbolic word-shelling. Scorer of the day however was Corbyn, demanding to not even stop talking. He probably dreams of shaking Putin's hand to death.

Better to do something than nothing and you as a German citizen 'with an opinion' should know that full well.

[Skybird]

Better to do something than nothing and you as a German citizen 'with an opinion' should know that full well.



What should or could they do then ?
Just sit tight and say, well we can't do anything ?


You both read what I answered already here to Jim's earlier question for the same:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2544720&postcount=18

When you impose an ultimatum, you shall NEVER negotiate it. You shall NEVER prolong it. You shall NEVEr set it up if you have no threat to mount in case the other lest the ultimatum pass.

Because if you see your ultimatum getting ignored, either you only have an act of weakness and helplessness to carry out, by which you demonstrate to the world and the other side that you are indeed helpless and weak, you even prove that you are helpless and weak; or you do not react at all and just set up another ultimatum of which the other side, thanks to your splendid demonstration, knows that it must not fear it too,m since you already did nothing to enforce your first uzltimatum. No matter what, you lose, and show what a weak, helpless bigmouthed idiot you are.

Therefore I must strictly oppose you suggestions for shallow, mindless, pointless symbolic actions. This is no spelling competition. The problem is, that Britain's position against the Russian attack is extremely weak, and as long as Britain doe snot do what is needed to chnage that and gain a much stronger position, and a stronger will to play th dirty game dirty for sure, nothing you do will impress the Russians. And who knows - they may ven find perfectly amused.

If you deal with rabied dogs that communicate by biting, killing, slamming fists on the table and putting their golden opostol on the table when they enter the room and sit down at the table, you better do not think that distinguished manners and polite wording is what will win you the round - thery will laugh about you. You need to grow muscle that threatens them and you need to grow a will that makes them afraid that if you attack them they find themselves in a real bad bar brawl. And that is where it lacks.

No will to fight a bar brawl, no muslces to support this will - and will of th eother to take you serious. That simple, that elemental it is. In ther Middle East, maym people understand this. In Russia and associated factions, poeple understand this. Westerners consider themselves to be too civilized for this.

Britain, Europe, the West - we are too weak and indifferent, too undecided. and Putin not only knows that - he counts on it and bases his own planning on right this. And the successes of the past years show him right. Every foreign poltical conflict he has sought, he has won. Becasue we are weak and indifferent.

The russian government most likely kills people in Great Britain's territory, and not for the first time. This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here, and a tiny British navy has nice modern techie ships, but not the numbers to seriously concern the Russians.

THAT is the real problem here. Weakness.

The Russians will get away with this latest stunt of theirs, and becoming even more stubborn, and united behind Putin! It works good for them this way- why should they stop? Becasue May fires one of these globally feared Western killer ultimatums...?

[mapuc]

I agree on that our Western leaders a weak and we have a weak military

I also know the Russians only respect strength

I don't like following sentence

"This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here"
(copied directly from your text)

I don't know what type of answer Russia will send and what government in London will do after that.

The government have many options in their bag

War is not one of them-I'm 150 % sure of that.

Markus

[Skybird]

I agree on that our Western leaders a weak and we have a weak military

I also know the Russians only respect strength

I don't like following sentence

"This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here"
(copied directly from your text)

I don't know what type of answer Russia will send and what government in London will do after that.

The government have many options in their bag

War is not one of them-I'm 150 % sure of that.

Markus
Russia - Mapuc 1:0 ;)

Assassinating people in another sovereign nation for political motives, is an attack against that state's sovereignity and its people. NATO explains that it is based on the princicple of "shared values" (well, that obviously has beocme a wide field...) and that an attack on one should be seen as an attack on all. What therefore - in an ideal world - would happen is that not just britain but ALL NATO nations expell Russian staff, and that NATO ends all committments with the Russian state and military, and that all trade relations of all NATO countries will end, and that Europe stops buying Russian gas. And that NATO aims at getting into shape again to be able to seriously hurt Russia if it continues to attack the West on its own soil. But currently, the Russian military threat in Eastern Europe cannot be coutnered by NATO, and the intel war is too masisvely focussed on hightech games, for my taste, while the human factors and human operations seem to get underrated.

And yes, I know what that would mean for German economy. But I say also since many, many years that an econoym as dependent on experots as Germany, in my book is not to be counted as strong. When you are so dependent on something beyond your control, then you are not strong, but weak. Dependency is no strength.

Symbolic acts and bighmouthed words will not change anything here. You could as well ty to stop the drop of a barrel bomb by condemning it. What helps against that is to shoot down the aircraft dropping it before it drops it. SDo that maybe said aicraft doe snot even ake off, due to fear.

But what is there in Europe that Russia should fear...??? LOL

[Skybird]

And one thing more, mapuc. Its not that we just have weak politicians that have no spine but plenty of opportunism, and that our military in Europe is weak. Its a weakness that has befallen the whole Western civilization, and all our mentality. Most people allow the politicians do do like they do, and they even demand them to do like this. We define indifference as tolerance, weakness as a virtue, and altruism as moral duty number one. we deny ourselves and thinki by that we demiosntrate our civilizational superiority. We don't. We only stand peacefully in line and wait to get led to the slaughtering house. No need to push and fight, everybody will find his place, there will be a knife for everybody. Stay classy!

I attack politicians all the time. But my furor against them is nothing against my wrath and disgust I feel for the ordinary crowd. The plebs. Der Pöbel.

Politicians have no inbuild strength of themselves. They are only dominant and strong because most people refuse to not be weak anymore, to not be comfortable and lazy anymore. Our weakness is their only strength.

Them politicians are the symptom. The plebs is the cause. And lets be honest. Most people do not want it any different, lazy and opportunistic as they are.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-britain-spy-may-20180312-story.html



It was unclear why it took a week for public health warnings to be issued to the approximately 500 people who visited the restaurant or the pub where the former spy and his daughter spent time March 4 before being found slumped unconscious on a bench in the quiet cathedral city of Salisbury.

On Sunday, the government issued an advisory saying any member of the public who frequented the restaurant Zizzi or the Mill pub should wash their clothes, double bag any items for dry cleaning and wipe any jewelry or cellphones with wet wipes to prevent possible contamination.

A table inside Zizzi, where Skripal and his daughter ate lunch, has been destroyed after traces of poison were found on it, officials said.

They knew the victims were an ex-Russian spy and his daughter ... they knew it was some kind of deadly nerve agent ... they know where to point the fingers. :o

Russian President Vladimir Putin, meanwhile, advised Britain to get things clear with the poisoning before discussing the matter with officials from his country, Russia's Tass news agency reported.

Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the Skripal case had nothing to do with Moscow.

"In any case, this is not our affair at all," Peskov said. "The aforesaid Russian citizen had worked for one of Britain's secret services. The incident occurred in British territory. By all means this is not an affair that concerns Russia, let alone Russia's leadership."

I think this attack could possibly have something to do with Putin's reelection bid coming up this month. A warning to others perhaps :yep:

[Catfish]

And do not forget the recent russian cyber attacks, which are nothing else than an act of war. :yep:

Putin and those other new bullies jumping up everywhere only understand a punch right on the nose. But i wrote this before, here.

[Jimbuna]

Below is a list of suggested actions the UK could consider taking but I doubt Russia would be overly bothered by such actions.

Expel senior diplomats, perhaps even the Russian ambassador, and known Russian intelligence agents.

Take some sort of action to bar wealthy Russian oligarchs from accessing their mansions and other luxuries in London, as suggested by Tory MP and House of Commons foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat. One way this could happen is through the use of Unexplained Wealth Orders, which allow government officials to seize assets including property until they have been properly accounted for.

A boycott of the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year by officials and dignitaries - a symbolic move that UK allies are unlikely to emulate.

Taking Russian broadcasters such as RT (formerly Russia Today) off the air - broadcasting regulator Ofcom has said it will "consider the implications for RT's broadcast licences" after Mrs May speaks on Wednesday.

Pass a British version of the 2012 US Magnitsky act, which punishes Russians involved in corruption and human rights violations with asset freezes and travel bans. It is named after a Russian lawyer who died in custody after revealing alleged fraud by state officials. MPs have been pushing for a Magnitsky amendment to be added to the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill now going through Parliament.

[Jimbuna]

Just come across this post elsewhere and I must say, I believe it to be a pretty fair summary/reality check.

Given half of Europe (well, a high percentage anyway) runs on Russian natural gas, then I suspect that beyond a bit of loud 'hurrrumphing' and stage-managed hand-wringing and head-shaking, few European States will want to go much beyond that - at least not until the weather warms up.... don't forget who has his hands on the valve that controls the flow of natural gas down the pipeline form the East.... the opening cartoon from 'Have I got News for You.' pretty much sums it up.

UK and Norway may be able to keep the lights on for a few days longer given access to North Sea gas fields, but too much of mainland Europe depends on Russian gas for them to take too firm a stand beside UK, and while it might be possible to import LPG form other places, it would take a while to get the logistics in place.

Nope, if it is Russia behind the poisoning, then they know there is very little UK can do on its own, and that although EU members might do a bit of posturing, major EU players have a pretty weak hand to play, and given BREXIT, many EU members may simply shrug their shoulders and decide its best not to raise their heads above the parapet on behalf of a nation who has already reached for the exit door-handle.

POTUS probably won't get too involved unless he sees an opportunity to improve US economy and thus further bolster his support at home.

I sense Blighty may be very much on our own on this one... and while it seems to be taking the Remoaners an age to jump on the bandwagon, I have no doubt that they will soo tell us all that 'had UK not voted for BREXIT then EU would have offered more help in censoring Russia blah blah blah..." whereas, for the reasons above, EU members would probably not take a very strong stance whether or not BREXIT was underway...


Better re-open our coal mines, build loads more wind/solar farms, and get Hinckley Point B up and running ASAP so that we can be self-sufficient in energy, and sod the global warming..(oh, I forgot, look who's funding Hinckley Point B...I hope we don't fall out with our Chinese chums and their new 'lifetime leader' too quickly, otherwise we'll all be back to using candles to light our evenings ).


So, assuming no admission of guilt is forthcoming and it's 'Handbags at Dawn' tomorrow, then I fear our twee little lipstick-filled clutch-bag is going to be pretty ineffectual against their brick-laden shoulder bag....

Finger pointing is fine, but when 'their' big stick is somewhat larger than ours, and our friends have suddenly started finding good reasons to be elsewhere, then I suspect we will have little choice but to express our 'severe displeasure' in writing, and then walk slowly away while the playground bully laughs at us, and wonders who to pick on next.

[Catfish]

It seems Putin already exploits brexit to the most.

" [...] and our friends have suddenly started finding good reasons to be elsewhere, [...]"
Wasn't that the other way round? :hmmm: :haha:

[Skybird]

Just come across this post elsewhere and I must say, I believe it to be a pretty fair summary/reality check.
Whoever it was who wrote that, he seems to tick a bit like me. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Whoever it was who wrote that, he seems to tick a bit like me. :salute:

The tought had crossed my mind :)

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May has given Russia until midnight GMT to respond but Russia has said it will not co-operate with the UK inquiry until it has been given a sample of the substance used and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov described claims of state involvement as "rubbish".

I don't think I'll try holding my breath.

[Mr Quatro]

Who would open the mail Jim?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/03/13/latest-russia-threatens-to-retaliate-against-uk-media.html

Britain has given Russia until midnight Tuesday to explain how a Russian-made nerve agent came to be used in an English city, or face retaliatory measures.

The Russian Embassy in London says Moscow won't respond to a British ultimatum unless it gets samples of the nerve agent used in the attack on a former spy and his daughter.

[Mr Quatro]

Ought Oh something must going around London town: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nikolai-glushkov-russian-associate-leading-160000609.html


Nikolai Glushkov: Russian associate of leading Putin critic Boris Berezovsky found dead in UK

A Russian man who was associated with a leading critic of Vladimir Putin has been found dead at his London home.

Police said Nikolai Glushkov’s death was being treated as “unexplained” and his family have been informed.

A spokesperson for the Metropolitan Police said its counter-terrorism command was leading the investigation “as a precaution because of the associations that the man is believed to have had”, but there was no immediate evidence of a link to the Salisbury nerve agent attack.

[mapuc]

It was late this night when I read Skybirds response to my comments

I feel that it may come to this-A deep diplomatically crisis between England/NATO and Russia.
Or if it goes really bad a state of war between Russia and NATO

And another Russian have been found dead, killed.

Are Putin playing a high risk game or is someone somewhere in the Russian agency acting on his or acting on their own ?

If it is Putin who have gave the order -
Then the question is: What is his purpose/his goal ?

If it is someone else-Putin not aware off or haven't ordered this
Why is the only question here.

Markus

[Catfish]

As Mr Quatro said, the next one has been killed in England.
It seems Putin sees no risk in doing what he does, he even boasted:

Vladamir Putin made the threats during a television appearance in 2010
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-traitors-kick-bucket-sergei-skripal-latest-video-30-pieces-silver-a8243206.html

Also, a few days ago:

"Russian state television has warned “traitors” and Kremlin critics that they should not settle in England because of an increased risk of dying in mysterious circumstances.

“Don’t choose England as a place to live. Whatever the reasons, whether you’re a professional traitor to the motherland or you just hate your country in your spare time, I repeat, no matter, don’t move to England,” the presenter Kirill Kleymenov said during a news programme on Channel One, state TV’s flagship station.

“Something is not right there. Maybe it’s the climate. But in recent years there have been too many strange incidents with a grave outcome. People get hanged, poisoned, they die in helicopter crashes and fall out of windows in industrial quantities,” Kleymenov said."


Also sad is the US and Trump's 'friendship' towards Putin. "Donald Trump’s caprice is not Mrs May’s fault. But she is in charge of Brexit – a pointless hindrance to coordination with fellow European democracies. She states often that UK exit from the EU signals no reduction in commitment to European security. It is sad that this even needs saying."

[mapuc]

Only one thing to say

Dangerous game Mr. Putin is playing.

Markus

[Skybird]

Only one thing to say

Dangerous game Mr. Putin is playing.

Markus

For him - or for us? :)

[mapuc]

For him - or for us? :)

Mostly for him. It could backfire.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

The deadline has passed and as expected, the Russians failed to respond so Mrs May will be briefed by senior intelligence chiefs in Downing Street ahead of giving an update to MPs later.

She will make a statement to the House of Commons after midday's Prime Minister's Questions.

The Kremlin said any steps by the PM would lead to "retaliatory measures" and if I'm to be honest, that does concern me because Russia will probably act disproportionally.

[Catfish]

Well the russian reaction (reaction? really??) maybe disproportionate, but on the other hand will it be better to appease Russia, or better, Putin?

I take it that Putin looks at the "elections", and however rigged and faulty they will be (lacking alternatives for reasons of killing or jailing political competitors and critics) it is important for alpha animals to present themselves in the best of light and as the shining winners, especially when it comes to exterior politics and "patriotism". Being caught red-handed in dirty operations is not what Putin appreciates.

True, the UK/Russia double agents certainly knew what they did and probably never slept well again after defecting (innocence is not a fitting word), but killing their children, killing Putin critics and risking the killing of british innocents in a collateral damage on english grounds.. :hmmm:
It also may be possible that they may have been killed by other secret services for whatever reason, of course. If you read Smiley's people it may be all possible.
But the use of that special Sarin-successor makes any non-russian interference unlikely.

Regarding the support of Europe to the Uk this is self-evident, the question is what we can do.

Threatening to shut down RT (Russia today) seems to have hit a nerve. It also shows how "independent and neutral" the latter obviously is... lol

[Catfish]

UK to expel russian diplomats:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43402506

[August]

Another murder, this time strangling:

https://nypost.com/2018/03/13/anti-putin-oligarch-found-strangled-in-his-london-home/

[Jimbuna]

Russia is fast becoming a rogue state and if this keeps up we may well see a return of the cold war.

[Jimbuna]

Moscow has vowed there will be a swift response to the expulsion of 23 of its diplomats by Britain.

President Vladimir Putin would make a final decision and "won't take long" to respond, his spokesman said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43412702

So now we await the retaliatory measures.

[Catfish]

There are never so much lies, as before elections.

[Skybird]

Ping. Pong. Ping. Pong. Ping...

The next newspaper editions and headlines are saved. The investment into consequent changes was successfully avoided. The "allies" of Britain feel relief for hacving evaded to striclty line up with the UK in such consequent changes. Everybody is happy.

Pong.

[Rockstar]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vVtBweB4Lgc/TyueUofX4PI/AAAAAAAAAFI/Vf0kGSJgAKU/s1600/meanwhile_in_finland15.jpg


The happiest place on earth to live. :D

[Catfish]

Well the EU should not partake in the upcoming football games, in Russia. That would be an interesting match :haha: Unfortunately this will most probably not happen, unless there are further escalations.
What will the US do?


@Rockstar they have p.. quite a hole in the snow :D

[Mr Quatro]

Moscow has vowed there will be a swift response to the expulsion of 23 of its diplomats by Britain.

President Vladimir Putin would make a final decision and "won't take long" to respond, his spokesman said.


So now we await the retaliatory measures.

Don't eat any Sushi in England for the next 30 days :o

http://fittipdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/sushi-.jpg

[Obltn Strand]

But only we can make him look like this

https://i.imgur.com/x2Sof5X.jpg

[mapuc]

A picture from Lord of the Ring came to my mind, when I read this in a Swedish news paper:

"You just don't threaten a nuclear power"

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Russia has underestimated the "resolve and unity" of the UK's allies, the head of Nato has said after the nerve agent attack on an ex-spy and his daughter.

Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Nato was undergoing its biggest strengthening of collective defence since the end of the Cold War.

Good to see NATO at least doing something.

[Rockstar]

Ok this is twice now. But what's getting me is, is Putin really that stupid to order the use of such rare products to kill someone that it would immediately and most publically point a guilty finger right back at him? If true, that's scary because that takes a big set of balls to go out on a limb like that.

Even scarier, if it wasnt Putin. Then that means the Russian government does not have complete control of their own chemical, biological, radiological weapons stockpiles. Which begs the question who does have access and to what extent will they go to? Other than western powers who inside Russia wants to take Putin's place or see him gone?

[Mr Quatro]

Don't forget to vote Sunday :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0WHTlLwJIk

[Catfish]

This got me laughing, but what is the intention – russian cynical humour:D
is that what happens if you do not vote for Putin?
Or what happens if you vote, for Putin?
:haha:

Where's Ikalugin when you need him..

[Skybird]

There is nothing the West can do.

1. Boycott the football WM. Symbolic act only, and anyway: unlikely to happen. The tournament was pulled ashore by Russia with great effort and underlines its desire to score big in prestige and reputation, but if such a boycott by Western nations would happen, however unlikely that is, it would be only symbolical anyway, causing no substantial harm to Russia. It would get a bit less applaus on the international stage for that tournament - so what...?

2. Strenghtening NATO combat capacity in Eastern European nations. Sorry, where should these reinforcments come from, and how should they reach a level that is a.) sustainable in the longterm so that they really change the game, and b.) how should they be sufficient in real combat strength so that the Russians could really feel the sting of their presence? They are already superior at NATO'S Eastern front, that simple it is. Also, many European states with small military will be reluctant to "provoke" Russia by increasing military presence in the East. Who should take the lead in Poland and the Baltic states? Germany...? Dont make me laugh.

3. Russia delivers gas to Europe. Plenty of it. And Europe depends on it currently. The word to focus on in this is: dependency. When you are dependent, you hardly are in a position to start a seriosu rumble with the side you are dependent of.

4. Russia ia practically economically autark. Nobody in the West wants to hear that, everybody seems to expect their economic and financial collapse. I have come to the conclusion that this is a Western opportunistic self-deception. A country the size of Russia covering so many climate zones and economic regions of the globe, will always find ways to sit out economic pressure form outside its borders as long as they do not turn to diemnsions like at the end of the USSR. And from that we are still far away.

5. Freezing of Russian assets by some key personnel, and banning some persons to travel. Well. Somebody cannot go skiing in St Moritz, no shopping tour in London this weekend. Big deal.

What they announce, plan and do now, is nothign else but pointless theatre stage thunder. But the noise of a balking dog means just this: a dog that balks, cannot bite.

Stoltenberg'S appearance at NATO was a pityful sight. I almost cried when seeing the obvious truth in his theatralic moral indignation. He spends a lot of effort in sendign and illustrating just this message: we are helpless to react, we are too weak to mee the Russian challenge on equal terms, we do not know what to really do - and we make a lot of words to decoeve the world over this helplessness of ours. Somebody whistles while walking alone in the dark forest.

Meanwhile Russia keeps on playing its game the way this kind of game needs to be played. It creates facts in Syria the West cannot counter. It keeps the Crimean. It builds threats in the West's flank in the Middle East. It widens the gap betwene Europe and the US, opushes the US away from Europe. It buys gold with money Westerners claim it does not have. It spends no time on sentimentality but acts as ruthless and determined as needed to see its objectives through. Its not nice how they play. But its successful. Damn successful. Efficient.

What many already forgot is that Putin, when he took over from Yeltzin, has ended the chaos of the era after the Sovjet Union's fall. Initially, Putin worked for and tried to bring Russia closer to Europe, on equal eye levels. But then the West betrayed him two times. First the Western predators tried to extract as much loot from the weak new-Russian economic environment as possible and tried to keep the new Russian state and its adminsutraiton out of stable control, and second the West promised to not move up towards Russia'S borders, and naive as they were at that time, the Russians believed that. They got betrayed, and Putin learned to lessons. First, give the West the opportunity to erode and abuse Russia'S wealth and economy, and it will do so, and second: Western promises and verbal agreements do mean nothign and are not worth the air it takes to speak them out.

Putin delivers on the Russian desire for national pride. He sorted out the hostile economic sell-out of Russian property and ecnomy at the cost of allowing oligarchic crime and corruption taking control of parts of the economy again while making it clear by setting several examples that these oligarchs are tolerated, but better do not take on the state itself in their greed, else they, individually, have to pay the highest price. All the revitalising of the Sovjet cult and Stalin cult needs to be seen in the light of all these factors that the West allowed to form and that the West even supported. The Wets is not as innocent as it claims in creating the situation as it is today. Putin initally did not start to go this way - he reacted to the bitter lessons he got taught by the West - by fallign back to proven Sovjet controlling schemes and reactions.

I sometimes wonder how it would be today if the chapter of this drunken idiot Yeltzin would have been skipped by history and Putin or somebody like him would have taken control of Russia immediately after the collapse of Gorbatchev's Sovjet Union. It must not have been necessarily so: but there maybe would have been a chance that thigns would be a bit better today, since I see a chance that the west from all start on would have been stopped from raiding Russia economically and trying to push onto Russia'S borders militarily.

I do not take a moral side with any faction in this, and I do not "love" Russia. I just try to see things at times through the eyes of Russia, how Russia must perceive it, and by taking into account Russian vital key interests that the West all the time demands the Russians to ignore, implying that way that the Russians are stupid. The bullying behaviour of Putin and Russia in recent years, for quite some share is a consequence of that.

Idiotic arrogant rightous politicians - in the West.

[Catfish]

I agree with most of what you wrote, unfortunately :03:
Only driving a wedge between the US and Europe? You cannot all blame on Putin. Trump does it all by himself. Along with brexit.

[Skybird]

Splitting up the West is a Putin project that already was running long before Trump took over. The Russian interference in the US and UK elections, the desire to get Trump and the joy to see Brexit, are result of this. Western politicians plan in three-years cycles only: one, two, three, election. Putin plans in decades, has taken elections out of the formula. And as long as Russian people think he delivers, by majority they will not mind rigged elections. Like pro-Trump Americans do not mind the obvious negatives in Trump. Both Trump and Putin are not that different in how they control the masses by appealing to their sentiments. Just that the Russian outwits the American.

[STEED]

The West is a big girl screaming in 1950's sitcoms at Puttin and his gang and he is laughing all the way. Debate closed move along nothing more to say.

[Jimbuna]

Russias retaliatory measures are announced.

Russia is to expel 23 British diplomats in a row over the nerve agent attack on an-ex spy and his daughter in the UK.

The Russian foreign ministry said the UK staff would be expelled from Moscow within a week in response to Britain's decision to expel 23 Russian diplomats.

It also said it would close the British Council in Russia, which promotes cultural ties between the nations, and the British Consulate in St Petersburg.

May has responded...

UK Prime Minister Theresa May said: "We anticipated a response of this kind."

She said that the government will consider its next steps "in the coming days, alongside our allies and partners".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43440992

So now we await the next round.

Oh and STEED, it's Putin not Puttin.

[Catfish]

^ be sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3z841UJiVk

[Aktungbby]

I'D LIKE TO SEE THE BRITS DENY USE OF THE 'ENGLISH' CHANNEL TO RUSSIAN NAVY VESSELS-REVOKING 'INNOCENT PASSAGE' (OFTEN 'ESCORTED BY ROYAL NAVY SHIPS) NOW SUPPORTING OPERATIONS IN SYRIA....THE DETOUR WOULD AT LEAST RUN UP THEIR FUEL BILL!:arrgh!: https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/411000/620x/Russia-ships-683908.jpgOh and STEED, it's Putin not Puttin.PRECISELY! IT'S OUR GUY THAT DOES THE 'PUTTIN' :Kaleun_Salute::O: . https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/347000/Vladimir-Putin-Topless-Pictures-Donald-Trump-Golf-Holiday-Siberia-Fishing-Moscow-Hacking-1033347.jpg

[STEED]

IT'S OUR GUY THAT DOES THE 'PUTTIN' https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/347000/Vladimir-Putin-Topless-Pictures-Donald-Trump-Golf-Holiday-Siberia-Fishing-Moscow-Hacking-1033347.jpg

I am that guy..You're Fired.

Just Tweeted..Another great day for America.

[August]

That looks more like a chip shot than a putt.

[Buddahaid]

I am that guy..You're Fired.

Just Tweeted..Another great day for America.

That is perfect!

August, I think he's stuck in the rough.

[Mr Quatro]

It has been reported, right or wrong, that trump has been known to pay his ball spotters to move the ball a little bit closer to the cup. :o

[Jimbuna]

Russia's EU ambassador has suggested a UK research laboratory could be the source of the nerve agent used in the attack on an ex-spy and his daughter.

Vladimir Chizhov told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show Russia had "nothing to do" with the poisoning in Salisbury of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

He said Russia did not stockpile the poison and that the Porton Down lab was only eight miles (12km) from the city.

UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the claims as "satirical".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43446312

I'm struggling to keep an open mind here :hmmm:

[STEED]

Putin is a power crazed monster who will not give up control, he's 100% hooked on power and the rest.

Get RT out the UK would be a good idea. After all it's Putin's propaganda machine.

[Aktungbby]

I'm struggling to keep an open mind here :hmmm: I'M NOT! ANYONE WHO WOULD AUTHORIZE 'DOPING' ON AN OLYMPIC COUPLES CURLING TEAM IS SIMPLY ....'BEYOND THE PALE'!':O:
... AND DEFINITLY NOT(GOLD MEDAL WINNING:up:) MINNESOTA NICE! https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/180222-russian-curling-couple-feature-image.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1<Russian curler Alexander Krushelnitsky and his wife, Anastasia Bryzgalova, will be stripped of the bronze medal in mixed doubles curling after Krushelnitsky’s B sample tested positive for the banned performance-enhancing substance Meldonium (https://nypost.com/2018/02/18/russian-curler-fails-doping-test-days-after-bronze-win/)...According to Inside the Games, Krushelnitsky told Russian officials that he suspects a teammate who was not selected for the 2018 Winter Olympics may have spiked his drink during a pre-Olympic training camp in Japan. (https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1061677/russian-curler-formally-charged-with-doping-offence-at-pyeongchang-2018) :yep: RIGHT!! https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/161/16111/1611151.gif

[Catfish]

Doping for.. curling? :haha:
I really think he did not know about taking it. But doping is doping..

[Catfish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43446312

I'm struggling to keep an open mind here :hmmm:

I am not sure either. It all looks easy. On the other hand, who has an interest in decaying relations between the UK and Russia.
Or is it an assassination by one of the UK secret services for whatever reason.. As said before, all is possible (see: Smiley's people)
Sending a sample to Russia for investigation would not have hurt?

[Mr Quatro]

Surprise surprise! Breaking news! Putin won the election :D

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2018/03/18/Russians-re-elect-Putin-to-fourth-term-by-wide-margin/2691521375297/

March 18 (UPI) -- Russians overwhelmingly extended Vladimir Putin's presidential reign another six years, according to exit polls Sunday night.

The only uncertainty was how many voters will turn out and Putin's victory margin for his fourth term.

Putin won 73.9 percent of vote, according to state-run pollster VTsIOM.

[Catfish]

Surprise surprise! Breaking news! Putin won the election :D

:yeah: I guess the US were heavily involved in the election ... :O:

[mapuc]

:yeah: I guess the US were heavily involved in the election ... :O:

Yep It was Trump who with a puttin´ put Putin into the Presidential Hole.

Markus

[STEED]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/winnerup-yours-may.jpg

[Rockstar]

Now for his next trick :haha:

https://media.giphy.com/media/ogIc08grhYqUU/giphy.gif

[STEED]

Now for his next trick :haha:

https://media.giphy.com/media/ogIc08grhYqUU/giphy.gif
That will be $200 each boys and girls, pay up or its the salt mines for you.

[Jimbuna]

Nothing in the UK press about this today as far as I can ascertain :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

The attempted murder of Russian former double agent Sergei Skripal in the U.K. represents a serious escalation. The March 5 attack, in which his daughter Yulia was also poisoned, shows that Moscow is directing terrorism toward defectors and using it as a political weapon against the West. The West should respond by imposing sanctions against President Vladimir Putin himself.
In the 2006 attack that killed former Federal Security Service officer Alexander Litvinenko in London, the crime was not supposed to be solved. He showed symptoms of radiation poisoning, but there was no beta or gamma radiation in his blood. Before he died, however, samples of his urine were tested in a laboratory for alpha-emitting elements that cannot penetrate the body but are deadly when taken internally. The tests came back positive for polonium-210, an alpha emitter. If Litvinenko had died sooner, the cause would not have been detected. In the Skripal case, the Russians are eager to take credit. Kirill Kleimenov, an anchor on the official government station Channel One, observed that traitors rarely live to a “ripe old age” and advised them: “Don’t choose Britain as a place to live.” Against the background of furious denials on the rest of Russian state-controlled television, this was, in the lexicon of the Russian security services, a “direct hint” that the attack on Mr. Skripal was an official act. Maria Zakharova, the Russian foreign ministry spokesman, responded to a demand for answers by saying that Britain should not “threaten a nuclear power.” That suggests a dual motive for the attack: It was undertaken to murder a former double agent and to assert Russian power and defiance of Western efforts to restrain Moscow’s lawlessness.
The Skripal attack is also a sign that Russia has expanded the category of persons targeted for murder. Mr. Skripal was one of four double agents Russia released in 2010 in exchange for 10 Russian spies in the U.S. Since the first spy swap in 1962—when KGB Col. Rudolf Abel was exchanged for Capt. Francis Gary Powers, the U-2 spy plane pilot who was shot down over the Soviet Union—it has been understood that swapped spies are not subject to retribution. :ping::ping: until now that is
The targeting of Mr. Skripal echoes developments inside Russia, where the list of victims has expanded to include Russian opposition-leader Boris Nemtsov. In a Feb. 10, 2015, interview with the newspaper Sobesednik, Nemtsov expressed fear that Vladimir Putin would have him killed. But he believed, according to his assistant Olga Shorina, that he was likelier to be arrested and sent to a labor camp. Based on his knowledge of the system, Nemtsov, a former vice premier, said he thought Mr. Putin would be unlikely to order the killing of a former high official.
He was killed on a bridge near the Kremlin on Feb. 27, 2015. Evidence indicates it was a military operation involving 30 to 40 persons and the crime was carried out by the Federal Guards Service that answers directly to Mr. Putin.
The Skripal attack is significant because it was executed without regard for innocent victims. The polonium-210 that killed Litvinenko was not a danger to bystanders; it had to be ingested. The Skripals were attacked with a contact poison capable of harming anyone near it. The use of the poison, possibly a powder, was so indiscriminate that 19 people were affected in addition to Sergei and Yulia Skripal. Nick Bailey, a police detective who investigated the case, was poisoned and remains hospitalized.
The Skripal attack represents a major escalation in Russian terror in the West. Western governments have an obligation to their citizens to make sure such an attack never takes place again. The U.K. ordered the expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats but this is an exercise in futility. All previous expulsions—including four diplomats from the U.K. after the Litvinenko murder, and 50 or more from the U.S. at other times—did nothing to change Russian behavior.
U.S. rhetoric has been muted. White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders last Monday described the attack as “reckless, indiscriminate and irresponsible,” an evasive way of describing a murderous act of political terror. President Trump waited until Tuesday to support the U.K. and did not condemn Russian actions.
The West needs to treat Mr. Putin the same way it treated Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko in response to his human-rights violations, including the disappearances of several political opponents. The Belarus Democracy Act 2004 provided for a U.S.-visa ban on Mr. Lukashenko, a freeze of his assets, and a freeze of the assets of companies believed to be connected to him. The European Union followed with a visa ban. After the sanctions were imposed, the disappearances in Belarus came to an end.
In the case of Mr. Putin, such measures could have a significant effect. In his first inaugural address, on May 7, 2000, he said that in Russia, “the head of the government was always and will always be the person who answers for everything.” The West needs to take him at his word.

^Copied in full from this AM's editorial-a very full synopsis of 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
A Russian lawmaker is suggesting that the nerve agent used on a former Russian double agent and his daughter in Britain may have been obtained via the United States.
The U.S. was involved in cleaning up a site where the nerve agent, Novichok, was thought to have been used during the Soviet era.
Novichok, was reportedly tested at a site in Nukus, an isolated city in Uzbekistan, a former Soviet republic. The United States and Uzbekistan agreed on a cleanup program in 1999.
Russia’s Interfax news agency quoted the deputy chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the lower house of the Russian parliament saying the cleanup gave the U.S. the opportunity to learn about Novichok.
Lawmaker Alexei Chepa said on Thursday: “The Americans had access not only to the technology, but had access to its development. In all likelihood, their NATO partners from Britain also had this access.” Well there it is in a nutshell! 'Manchurian Candidate ' President Trump carried out his Kremlin master's wishes-and did his usual half-assed job! Putin cites the upcoming World Cup, hosted by Russia as a reason why Russia is not responsible...
England manager Gareth Southgate says there’s “no doubt” that his soccer team should be going to the World Cup despite Russia being blamed for poisoning a former spy in the U.K.
British Prime Minister Theresa May has ordered politicians and royals not to attend the World Cup in Russia after former Russian agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter were found unconscious after being exposed to a nerve agent. But after the horrendous OAR Olympic doping in Couples Curling... a total Western boycott of the Cup is mandated.:/\\!!

[Jimbuna]

Russian diplomats and their families have left the UK in an expulsion following the the Salisbury spy attack.

Diplomatic vehicles drove them from the embassy in London to Stansted Airport, where they boarded a plane to Moscow.

The UK expelled 23 diplomats after Prime Minister Theresa May said Russia was "culpable" for the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter.

Moscow has denied all involvement, and is expelling 23 British diplomats in response. The UK diplomats have until Saturday to leave Russia.

The Kremlin is also closing down both the British Council in Russia, which promotes cultural ties between the nations, and the consulate in St Petersburg.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43470069

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May said she would tell her fellow EU leaders that "the Russia threat" did not respect borders, as she arrived for a summit in Brussels.

The UK PM said the nerve agent attack in Salisbury was "part of a pattern of Russian aggression against Europe".

She will stress the UK's commitment to European security, after it leaves the bloc in March 2019.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43489457

Hopefully this will bring some badly needed EU/European backing that the UK currently so badly needs.

[Mr Quatro]

Clue to why the Russian double agent and his daughter was poisoned ... but couldn't this also be a reason for other than Russia to have done the dirty deed? :o

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/poisoned-russian-spy-wrote-to-putin-asking-to-be-pardoned-friend-claims/ar-BBKDrcM

The former Russian double agent left close to death after a nerve agent attack in Salisbury had written to President Vladimir Putin asking to be pardoned and to be allowed to visit his home country, a friend has claimed.

Vladimir Timoshkov, a friend of Sergei Skripal, said he regretted having spied for the British and wanted to return to Russia to visit his family.

[Reece]

Alexander Litvinenko Part II anybody?No thanks Jim.:D

[Jimbuna]

Clue to why the Russian double agent and his daughter was poisoned ... but couldn't this also be a reason for other than Russia to have done the dirty deed? :o

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/poisoned-russian-spy-wrote-to-putin-asking-to-be-pardoned-friend-claims/ar-BBKDrcM

On the 9th of this month it was being suggested by an acquaintance of ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal that he believes he may have been targeted by criminal gangs.

Fellow Russian exile Valery Morozov suggested the poisoning may have been an attempt to internationally discredit President Putin ahead of Russia's election.

[Skybird]

Now they play Pingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpingpi ngpingping-Pongpongpongpong-
pongpongpongpongpongpongpongpongpongpongpong.

[Jimbuna]

The United States and its European allies are expelling dozens of Russian diplomats in a co-ordinated response to the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the UK.

It is said to be the largest collective expulsion of Russian intelligence officers in history.

Prime Minister Theresa May said 18 countries have aligned with the UK, expelling more than 100 diplomats.

Russia vowed to retaliate to the "provocative gesture".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43545565

Looks like the stakes have just been raised.

[Skybird]

No, just pronouncing the game's new name may break your tongue.

If I were the Russians, I would expel from every nation the number of diplomats they have expelled from my staff in their country - plus one. :D

[Mr Quatro]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/26/russia-retaliates-vow-expel-dozens-western-diplomats

Russia has vowed to expel dozens of western diplomats in the growing diplomatic dispute over the Salisbury nerve gas attack.

Officials promised a swift and most likely tit-for-tat response after the expulsion of Russian diplomats across Europe and
North America on Monday in a show of solidarity from British allies that represents the biggest concerted blow to Russian
intelligence networks since the cold war.

reminds me of an old Greek poem

I am echo

tit for tit and tat for tat
if you say that then I say that
tit for tit and tat for tat

I am echo

if you be silent then I must
now who could have a tongue
more just

an old Greek poem

[mapuc]

What I wonder is. Will it end here, after both side have expelled diplomats ?

Or will the stakes go higher ?

Markus

[Skybird]

What stakes? Its all symbolical flim-flam.

If the West wants to react with something substantial, it would send one or two divisions into Eastern Europe. Have the navies running more close escort. Play tough in Syria, and bomb the Iranians out of there. Stop buying Russian gas.

Oh, wait - no divisions left. Navies overstretched. Hesitent indifference in Syria not to unsettle terrorist Islamic threat even more. And desperately depending on Russian gas. Well. Okay, poor man's solution then. Lets expel some diplomats to show how resolved we are. :D

For the Kremlin its a nice opportunity to send home dozens and hundreds of spying foreigners in Western embassies in Moscow. And they must not even say Spassiba! :yeah:

"Call a fool that player who thinks the opponent will play accoriding to one's own plan." Said some famous chess player, but I forgot the name.

Weakness does what weakness is: weak.

[Jimbuna]

Russia has vowed a tough response to the decision by more than 20 countries to expel its diplomats in response to a nerve agent attack in the UK.

Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov singled out the US after it expelled 60 diplomats and closed a consulate, but indicated dialogue would continue.

The expulsion of around 100 Russians is thought to be the largest in history.

Russia's foreign ministry called the mass expulsions an "unfriendly act" and said it would "not go without notice and we will react to it".

The ministry is said to be drawing up a number of possible retaliatory measures for President Putin to consider.

One Russian senator, Vladimir Dzhabarov, was quoted as saying there would be a "tit-for-tat" response to the US' decision to expel 48 envoys at the Russian Embassy in Washington and 12 more at the UN in New York.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43550938

Shouldn't be long before said response is forthcoming.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't see why Russia can't take out people in a civilized fashion, like the US does. Fly drones over other countries and hit them with Hellfire missiles.

[Mr Quatro]

Most of them were spies anyway ... Seattle needs a Russian home office?

I don't think so :o

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-orders-expulsion-of-dozens-of-russian-diplomats-closure-of-consulate-in-seattle/ar-BBKIvFY


President Trump on Monday ordered the expulsion of 60 Russian intelligence officers in the United States and the closure
of the Russian consulate in Seattle in response to the nerve agent attack on an ex-Russian spy in the U.K. earlier this month

[Catfish]

@Neal: :haha: :up:

Generally i think this all is a bit of an overreaction by the west.. why did that not happen after Litvinenko? I mean this case back then was much more clear than what has happened now? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

take out people in a civilized fashion,
Ehem, that choice of wording one has to chew on and digest it a bit... :hmmm:

Lets keep the "civilised" thing out of it, and focus on taking the villain out with lesser collateral damage, if possible.

Russia often has used certain poisons in order to sign its assassinations without needing to openly confessing to them. By letting everybody know who it was, it sends a message.

"Civilised" behaviour is not what it is about, but determination. What is civilised behaviour in someone's eye, is indifference and weakness in somebody else's eye.

[Skybird]

Hm. Damn internet. Think I fell for another opportunity to miss Neal's irony, or what?

:)

[Onkel Neal]

Hahah, yeah, got ya :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

Yulia Skripal, the daughter of ex-spy Sergei Skripal, is improving rapidly and no longer in a critical condition, says the hospital treating her.

She and her father were admitted nearly four weeks ago after being exposed to a nerve agent in Salisbury.

The BBC understands from separate sources that Ms Skripal is conscious and talking.

However Mr Skripal remains in a critical but stable condition, Salisbury District Hospital said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43588450

I wonder if she will have any information that can help the investigation :hmmm:

[Catfish]

^ probably not, the poison was attached to the home's keyhole or so i read.
Good that she made it. After all i think she had not much to do with the spy affairs, she became a victim of some state's or secret services' revenge.

[Jimbuna]

^ Yeak, my understanding is that it was the front door handle :yep:

[Rockstar]

article is dated Tue, 2006-12-19 01:59 PM. "Estimates show that approximately 300,000 Russians currently call London their home" So, I suppose with the influx of wealthy Russians into London. Doing things the Russian way in the U.K. were inevitable.

http://workpermit.com/news/300000-russians-uk-londongrad-prime-location-20061219

I wonder if Skripal never learned his lesson the first time and was still privy too or obtaining new information and passing it to British agencies.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43588450

I wonder if she will have any information that can help the investigation :hmmm:

Remember all of those old movies where the authorities made it look like the victim was still alive in order to trick the murderer into coming back to finish the job?

Maybe this is like in one of those movies :o

[Jimbuna]

Russian spy poisoning: Yulia Skripal 'getting stronger daily'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43652574

A small snippet of positive news.

Russia's proposal for a new, joint investigation into the poisoning of an ex-spy and his daughter in England has been voted down at the international chemical weapons watchdog at The Hague.

Russia has accused Britain of blocking access to an investigation being carried out by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).

Britain earlier said Russia's call for an inquiry with the UK was "perverse".

Russia lost the vote by 15 votes to six, while 17 member states abstained.

China, Azerbaijan, Sudan, Algeria and Iran were among the countries that backed Russia's motion at the OPCW executive council, Reuters reported.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43648343

The latest development.

[Jimbuna]

UPDATE: It is being reported that Sergei Skripal is no longer in a critical condition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43671958

[Catfish]

^ This is good news, for him.

It seems the origin of the poison is still unclear.

[Jimbuna]

^Yeah but I'd like to see some evidence regarding how the UK government came to their conclusion, without compromising anyone of course.

[Catfish]

^ Only who knows will be the MI secret services, and they can tell the government what pleases them most.
:03:

[Jimbuna]

^True that :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Matters are becoming a tad silly now.

A bitter row has broken out between Labour and the Conservatives over their language and response to the nerve agent attack in Salisbury.

Boris Johnson accused Jeremy Corbyn of refusing to "unequivocally" blame the Russian state, describing him as "the Kremlin's useful idiot".

But Labour said Mr Johnson was the "idiot" having "undermined his own government's position" on the evidence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43686718

[Delgard]

Although mass casualties would overwhelm the system, be nice to hear that we learn medical treatments from this event.

Chem weapon, and cyber for that matter, are the near future for conflict. Whatever that all means...:hmmm:

[Catfish]

Matters are becoming a tad silly now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43686718

They are both right 'in a way', though Labour is probably a bit wiser here.
On one hand England should speak with one determined voice.
On the other hand it is a bit idiotic to accuse Russia, expel dipplomats and do all to heaten up the international situation, without having evidence.

And all chime in, although the rest of the Anti-Russia club has even less evidence, or any knowledge on that matter. This is even more silly.

[Mr Quatro]

Although mass casualties would overwhelm the system, be nice to hear that we learn medical treatments from this event.

Chem weapon, and cyber for that matter, are the near future for conflict. Whatever that all means...:hmmm:

This was just a door knob can you imagine what an air burst weapon of this stuff could do ... panic! :yep:

[Jimbuna]

They are both right 'in a way', though Labour is probably a bit wiser here.
On one hand England should speak with one determined voice.
On the other hand it is a bit idiotic to accuse Russia, expel dipplomats and do all to heaten up the international situation, without having evidence.

And all chime in, although the rest of the Anti-Russia club has even less evidence, or any knowledge on that matter. This is even more silly.

As far as I'm aware there has been talk of substantial intelligence gathered to back up the finger pointing to which we have not been privy, nor probably ever will.

[Catfish]

^ maybe.
And if you have been wrong it is better to save face than to admit a fail.
Especially if you misled the wole world to support your cause.

As you say we will never know. How could we, in a democracy where the secret services know much better what is good for us. :03:

[Delgard]

It IS cool calculation. It is communication.




---How the communication occurs and what it is entails, well diplomats going home and oligarchs being sanctioned is probably not...fully the answer to eliminating such actions. It just means they try a different way and so that costs in money, labor, and attention. We, as a nation and neighbor in the neighborhood, just don't have those resources, repeatedly. The response should eliminate it from happening again.

The situation is the same in Syria with the use of chem.

[Jimbuna]

Yulia Skripal, the poisoned daughter of Russian ex-spy Sergei, has been discharged from hospital.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43710126

[Jimbuna]

OPCW confirms the obvious: the Skripals are confirmed to have been poisoned by a chemical agent of Russian origin, backing British claims.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43741140

The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140

[Skybird]

Hi, Jim! :D

[Jimbuna]

Hi, Jim! :D

Again!! :oops:

[STEED]

Again!! :oops:

Sky fancies you, that or he wants to raid your beer shed. :03:


As for this subject I am fed up with it all as its a right pigs ear.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey or the Skripals think of it in that way.

[Catfish]

I find it a bit reassuring that the poison has been identified, being of russian origin; also that Skripal has been obviously observed by russian personnel in the last months. And they tell that.. now?

1. If the english services knew about that, why didn't they protect better? The russians are right, if this is english protection.. they love treachery, but not the traitor.
2. How could Johnson (or anyone, for that matter) boast about the alleged culprits without having any evidence?

[STEED]

2. How could Johnson boast about the alleged culprits without having any evidence?

He is protected by Parliament regulations so he can spout off that guff.

If Russia was in the dock the judge would have to find them not guilty due to lack of evidence. The reporting of this news story in the media has been crass at times. Its one of those stories the media has to whip out their milking machine and milk it to death.

[Mr Quatro]

Who did it?


http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201804/16/WS5ad3fcdca3105cdcf651866a.html

MOSCOW - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Saturday the nerve agent used to poison former Russian spy Sergei Skripal in Britain could have been the BZ substance - which was never produced in the Soviet Union or Russia.

Lavrov said experts from a laboratory based in the Swiss town of Spiez had analyzed a sample of the substance used in the poisoning.

Citing a report from the lab dated March 27, Lavrov said the evidence suggested the nerve agent used could be in the arsenal of the United States and Britain.

Lavrov read out parts of the report that he said showed the substance had traces of the BZ agent.

[Catfish]

^ "Citing a report from the lab dated March 27, Lavrov said the evidence suggested the nerve agent used could be in the arsenal of the United States and Britain."

Ok it is Lavrov, russian desinformation and all that. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Just an accident, right? :o

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/scientist-who-invented-novichok-nerve-12426690

Scientist who invented Novichok nerve agent used in Salisbury poisonings hit by car in Russia

[Jimbuna]

“They did an MRI scan, an Xray, there were no fractures.

“Doctors wanted me to stay in hospital, but I said: ’b****r you, I’m not sticking around here.”

Can't say I blame him :)

[Jimbuna]

Alexei Navalny: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok - Germany

Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny was poisoned with a Novichok nerve agent, Germany's government says.
It said toxicology tests at a military laboratory showed ""unequivocal proof" of an agent from the Novichok group.
Mr Navalny was airlifted to Berlin for treatment after falling ill during a flight in Russia's Siberia region last month. He has been in a coma since.
His team says he was poisoned on President Vladimir Putin's orders. The Kremlin has dismissed the allegation.
The German government said it condemned the attack in the strongest terms and called for Russia urgently to provide an explanation.
"It is a disturbing development that Alexei Navalny was the victim of a chemical nerve agent in Russia," it said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54002880